MR

I am a big fan of Serpent, and Serpent was my first introduction to JC and I really liked his ability to write both fun rockers and songs with a lot of meaning. I personally think on Miracles he was poorly represented. Having a Ball is more him than Feeling, and he didn't sing leads on any songs. I don't know if he was having trouble being creatively productive, or if what he wrote just got rejected. Whichever it was, I personally believe Miracles would have been better with more contributions from him.

Does anybody else agree?


And if songs of his were to get on, others would have to be taken off. Personally I would take out Lies and Southern Woman. Lies is out because it is a cover, plus it doesn't really "fit" anyway. Southern Woman is in the same vein as Witch Wolf, and if you're familiar with JY's style, SW may be TOO familiar.


A side note; Has anybody else noticed that JC gave his "rockers" to others to sing, and sang his deeper songs himself?

Yeah because Serpent was SOOOOO much better! How about this - Miracles would have been every bit as good as late 70s Styx if it had LESS JY!!! Replace shit like Havin' A Ball and A Man Like Me with some sort of epic Dennis thing and you'd have a classic.

Dennis' contributions were good on that album, just not as fine tuned as his songs would be later on. I actually like Man Like Me 'cause it wasn't the typical JY "dark and sexy" type songs he did around that time like Witch Wolf, Midnight Ride, and Southern Woman. He was actually trying to write a love song. It's not the best love song out there, but it's not the worst and I at least give him a thumbs up for effort. Man of Miracles is a must keep though; it was the the first song to catch my attention when I listened to Miracles. So I guess drop Havin A Ball, Southern Woman, and Lies, then throw in at least two JC songs and maybe Unfinished Song from DDY, and there's a better album [imo]! I heard that Lies replaced US, but I've also heard it was a mistake, though I can't say for sure 'cause I've never heard it. *runs to youtube to find song*

Miracles is a good album not their best like pieces of eight was ( i know i know throw in your complaints later) but every song is listenable. Wish i could say that about every album (robot's come to mind)

Idk, I do like Miracles, it just doesn't seem like what should have come between Serpent and Equinox. Speaking of Equinox, was it JC singing on Mother Dear, or was it DDY? It sounds like it could be either or both.


And WOW, just listened to Unfinished Song, and that SHOULD have been where Lies went! That alone would have nudged the album up in quality.

I always thought that maybe after the failure of "Serpent", the other guys didn't let him handle lead vocals anymore. I don't know if it was so much that he picked and chose what songs to sing, but I could be wrong. It just seems odd that he vanished like that for two albums. I think he sings with Dennis on the verses of "Mother Dear", but it's hard to tell, DDY is definitely the prominent voice.

Yes, I would have liked more JC on "Miracles", but you can't take out "Southern Woman"; that's one of the best on there, and maybe from the whole Wooden Nickel period in general.

JC injected a sense, "lighten the f!ck up", and I wish he could have stayed around longer. I think Tommy was desperately needed, but it's too bad we couldn't have had both. I always think of JC as sort of the "Joe Walsh" of the band, and Styx really did benefit from his contributions on those early albums. I think he helped to bring the other guys down to earth sometimes, and might have helped to make the band a little more critic friendly. I know he was known for complaining a lot, but his music doesn't reflect that.

Higgy wrote:Yeah because Serpent was SOOOOO much better! How about this - Miracles would have been every bit as good as late 70s Styx if it had LESS JY!!! Replace shit like Havin' A Ball and A Man Like Me with some sort of epic Dennis thing and you'd have a classic.

I always found it strange that JY sang so much lead on those early albums. Why?????

JC sucked...period.

BlackWall wrote:I always thought that maybe after the failure of "Serpent", the other guys didn't let him handle lead vocals anymore. I don't know if it was so much that he picked and chose what songs to sing, but I could be wrong. It just seems odd that he vanished like that for two albums. I think he sings with Dennis on the verses of "Mother Dear", but it's hard to tell, DDY is definitely the prominent voice.

Okay, I figured it was probably both. Edit; listening to it again, I believe the song benefits from having shared harmonies.

BlackWall wrote: Yes, I would have liked more JC on "Miracles", but you can't take out "Southern Woman"; that's one of the best on there, and maybe from the whole Wooden Nickel period in general.

Personal preference really. I would only take it out because it was a lot like other JY stuff from the time.

BlackWall wrote:JC injected a sense, "lighten the f!ck up", and I wish he could have stayed around longer. I think Tommy was desperately needed, but it's too bad we couldn't have had both. I always think of JC as sort of the "Joe Walsh" of the band, and Styx really did benefit from his contributions on those early albums. I think he helped to bring the other guys down to earth sometimes, and might have helped to make the band a little more critic friendly. I know he was known for complaining a lot, but his music doesn't reflect that.

Ya, I think Serpent was a much more light-hearted album, and that was where JC contributed the most. Ironically, I've been listening to more Wooden Nickel stuff this year than other Styx stuff, and I think it's that lightness that JC brought. What's funny is your comment there got me thinking of a new question, "Would have Styx's later releases been even better if we had BOTH JC and Shaw?" Who knows?

That complaining, at least what I read of it from Sterling's book, is why I believe he may have gotten "skipped over". Well maybe the complaining in conjunction with the failure of Serpent. Anyway, I only think Miracles did better than Serpent because it was the closest release to when Lady became a big hit. I mean, there wasn't anything promoting it! [Though same goes for Serpent] Idk, maybe it all came down to album art, lol.

brywool wrote:I always found it strange that JY sang so much lead on those early albums. Why?????

I think Wooden Nickel thought they could grab the attention of hard-rockers with him. DDY hadn't started pumping out hits yet, so they probably saw JY as the safe bet.

Toph wrote:JC sucked...period.

What a wonderful elaboration on your opinion. The lack of examples and reasons really strengthens your argument.

While I like some of John C's contributions, I think he was a lesser talent in Styx and, really, had a whole different style than what I think the group really wanted with their music.

That said. I love his contributions on "Equinox", my favorite Styx album.

I think he sings with Dennis on the verses of "Mother Dear", but it's hard to tell, DDY is definitely the prominent voice.

John sings the verses, double tracked (or whatever that is called), I believe. Dennis joins in on the low harmonies. I love this song. Always have.

Bugsy

KWH17, have you listened to JC's contributions on "Styx II"? I think those two tracks("You Better Ask" & "A Day") are probably his best work with Styx.

Believe it or not, the song that was supposed to promote "Miracles" was in fact, "Lies". That was the single. I also agree that "Unfinished Song" should have made the cut; although, I don't have the same disdain for "Lies" that a lot of fans seem to. I personally think either "Rock & Roll Feeling", or "A Man Like Me" could have been omitted.

It is interesting to think that JY was more or less the original lead singer.. I wonder how he adapted to the change once Dennis hit with "Lady" and Tommy was in the mix. Even before Tommy though, he was negated to one track on "Equinox". I never really thought about the fact that "Equinox" was pretty much DDY alone.

BlackWall wrote:KWH17, have you listened to JC's contributions on "Styx II"? I think those two tracks("You Better Ask" & "A Day") are probably his best work with Styx.

I'm still trying to get a hold of Styx II, but I have heard that those two were his best.

BlackWall wrote:Believe it or not, the song that was supposed to promote "Miracles" was in fact, "Lies". That was the single. I also agree that "Unfinished Song" should have made the cut; although, I don't have the same disdain for "Lies" that a lot of fans seem to. I personally think either "Rock & Roll Feeling", or "A Man Like Me" could have been omitted.

But the single didn't get released? At least as far as I know it wasn't. I like Lies, and for awhile it was my second favorite, MoM being my first. However, Unfinished Song just blows it away in my opinion. When I first listened to it the other night, I listened to it about 4 times. One of my new favorites!

BlackWall wrote:It is interesting to think that JY was more or less the original lead singer.. I wonder how he adapted to the change once Dennis hit with "Lady" and Tommy was in the mix. Even before Tommy though, he was negated to one track on "Equinox". I never really thought about the fact that "Equinox" was pretty much DDY alone.

He adapted by not liking DDY very much from then on. In all honesty I think he worked a lot harder to make better songs since he was only going to be represented once or twice per album. Miss America, Great White Hope, Midnight Ride, Double Life; all have more substance than his earlier stuff. I like his earlier stuff, but it's not the highest caliber material. And I think Eddie is his only real clunker from their successful years. [Yes I'm leaving out Heavy Metal Poisoning; half because he was kinda forced to follow that albums theme, and half because I actually like that song.]

edit; about what you said with Tommy getting mixed in. I think he liked Tommy a lot during those years, as he does today. If JC had actually stuck around, JY would be in a situation where one guy in the band, not him, was writing all the hits, and the other songwriter, whom he was competing with, was somebody who he didn't like very much. JY probably would have left the band before 1980 if that were the case. just my op of course.

A Day is my top 5 in all of the Styx catalog.I would have loved more along those lines.

"A Day" is a pretty good song. I remember thinking Styx went Pink Floyd the first time I heard it..

KWH17, I think "Lies" was released, it just didn't chart. From what I understand, and forgive me if this was in Sterling's book and I'm not giving proper credit, but the band was so desperate for a hit at this point, they even tried doing a reissue of "Best Thing" when "Lies" didn't make it, since that was the closest thing to a hit they had at that point.

I guess they would have been desperate, considering it was their fourth album and they weren't going anywhere. But was there a single released for Serpent?

BlackWall wrote:"A Day" is a pretty good song. I remember thinking Styx went Pink Floyd the first time I heard it.. KWH17, I think "Lies" was released, it just didn't chart. From what I understand, and forgive me if this was in Sterling's book and I'm not giving proper credit, but the band was so desperate for a hit at this point, they even tried doing a reissue of "Best Thing" when "Lies" didn't make it, since that was the closest thing to a hit they had at that point.

So that must be why my miracles lp has best thing on it.

KWH17 wrote:I guess they would have been desperate, considering it was their fourth album and they weren't going anywhere. But was there a single released for Serpent?

"Young Man". Also, "Winner Take All" might have been, but I'm not sure if it was the A side or B side of "You Need Love".

KWH17 wrote:I guess they would have been desperate, considering it was their fourth album and they weren't going anywhere. But was there a single released for Serpent?

Interesting question. I'm not even sure. Truthfully, if there was I'm sure RCA was not at all on board with it. They basically gave up on Styx after that album, and rightfully so in my opinion. What a really shitty album. I can't believe that the same band that would be capable of making 'Equinox' in just a couple of years could record such an utterly terrible record. Which one of those awful songs could have worked as a single? It's like picking whether you'd rather be stabbed, or shot.

Come to think of it, maybe there was a single issued for "Winner Take All"?

Sterling

Rockwriter wrote:

KWH17 wrote:I guess they would have been desperate, considering it was their fourth album and they weren't going anywhere. But was there a single released for Serpent?

Interesting question. I'm not even sure. Truthfully, if there was I'm sure RCA was not at all on board with it. They basically gave up on Styx after that album, and rightfully so in my opinion. What a really shitty album. I can't believe that the same band that would be capable of making 'Equinox' in just a couple of years could record such an utterly terrible record. Which one of those awful songs could have worked as a single? It's like picking whether you'd rather be stabbed, or shot.

Come to think of it, maybe there was a single issued for "Winner Take All"?

Sterling

I don't consider myself a consumer of bad taste, but amongst liking every other Styx record, I also like Serpent. I think Witch Wolf or Young Man would have been the best choices for singles, if not Winner Take All

I listening to Styx I the other day, and Movement for the Common Man really impressed me. It showed how much potential Styx had. Although I have not heard Styx II I have heard it is held in even higher regard, so I would have to agree with you that Serpent and Miracles certainly were the low points of their career and detours to their success. As much as I like Serpent and parts of Miracles, it would have been better to see two more albums like 1, 2, and 5.

KWH17 wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:

KWH17 wrote:I guess they would have been desperate, considering it was their fourth album and they weren't going anywhere. But was there a single released for Serpent?

Interesting question. I'm not even sure. Truthfully, if there was I'm sure RCA was not at all on board with it. They basically gave up on Styx after that album, and rightfully so in my opinion. What a really shitty album. I can't believe that the same band that would be capable of making 'Equinox' in just a couple of years could record such an utterly terrible record. Which one of those awful songs could have worked as a single? It's like picking whether you'd rather be stabbed, or shot.

Come to think of it, maybe there was a single issued for "Winner Take All"?

Sterling

I don't consider myself a consumer of bad taste, but amongst liking every other Styx record, I also like Serpent. I think Witch Wolf or Young Man would have been the best choices for singles, if not Winner Take All

I listening to Styx I the other day, and Movement for the Common Man really impressed me. It showed how much potential Styx had. Although I have not heard Styx II I have heard it is held in even higher regard, so I would have to agree with you that Serpent and Miracles certainly were the low points of their career and detours to their success. As much as I like Serpent and parts of Miracles, it would have been better to see two more albums like 1, 2, and 5.

You should try to hear 'Styx II' without a doubt. It's the most Styx-like album of that era, the only one of that period that really points the way to what Styx would become later. The rest is hit and miss (mostly miss in my opinion), but 'Styx II' is a solid album with a lot to offer.

I hope all is well.

Sterling

Rockwriter wrote:

KWH17 wrote:I guess they would have been desperate, considering it was their fourth album and they weren't going anywhere. But was there a single released for Serpent?

Interesting question. I'm not even sure. Truthfully, if there was I'm sure RCA was not at all on board with it. They basically gave up on Styx after that album, and rightfully so in my opinion. What a really shitty album. I can't believe that the same band that would be capable of making 'Equinox' in just a couple of years could record such an utterly terrible record. Which one of those awful songs could have worked as a single? It's like picking whether you'd rather be stabbed, or shot.

Come to think of it, maybe there was a single issued for "Winner Take All"?

Sterling

I haven't checked recently, but the Wooden Nickel site had "You Need Love/Winner Take All" listed as a single around the time "Serpent" came out. I always assumed they had that backwards, and "Winner Take All" was the A side, but it's also possible that they decided "You Need Love" had a better chance.. I know it was eventually released after "Lady" became a hit

I gotta question why did it take so long for lady to become a hit? Also what would've happened if lady never existed?

BlackWall wrote:

Rockwriter wrote:

KWH17 wrote:I guess they would have been desperate, considering it was their fourth album and they weren't going anywhere. But was there a single released for Serpent?

Interesting question. I'm not even sure. Truthfully, if there was I'm sure RCA was not at all on board with it. They basically gave up on Styx after that album, and rightfully so in my opinion. What a really shitty album. I can't believe that the same band that would be capable of making 'Equinox' in just a couple of years could record such an utterly terrible record. Which one of those awful songs could have worked as a single? It's like picking whether you'd rather be stabbed, or shot.

Come to think of it, maybe there was a single issued for "Winner Take All"?

Sterling

I haven't checked recently, but the Wooden Nickel site had "You Need Love/Winner Take All" listed as a single around the time "Serpent" came out. I always assumed they had that backwards, and "Winner Take All" was the A side, but it's also possible that they decided "You Need Love" had a better chance.. I know it was eventually released after "Lady" became a hit

My understanding was that Lady hit and Styx II took off. RCA wanted to capitalize on the album's popularity and then issued a second single off it which was You Need Love. It hit the top 100, but very low - like 80 something I believe and then fell right off. In hindsight, they probably should have released another Dennis track (even though YNL was written by DDY, it was sung by JY - I've always wondered how that song would have sounded if sung by DDY). Styx was off to A&M and their next big single would be Lorelei and their next top 10 single would be Come Sail Away.

Unfinished song is great. Lies should not have been on there. Damn record companies!