Why continue to bury the past?

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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby yogi » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:56 am

At the time 1983 I HATED side 1 of the Kilroy album. Truthfully I disliked EVERY song at the time.

On the opposite end of that spectrum like with sooooooo many Styx albums I LOVED Side 2. I always purchased albums and I couldnt play Side 2 of Kilroy enough. On a BASF cassette in my Datsun B10 with a Jensen Stereo & Speakers I had the entire Side 2 of Kilroy followed by Side 2 of Equinox. Taped it from the album

As for the Kilroy tour say what you want, BUT it was utterly brilliant. A true rock opera that was soooo damn far ahead of its time. It was DDY brilliance. A movie, acting and a greatest hits concert woven into a theatrical show. It was PROG at its BEST! I saw that show 3 times. TOTALLY fantastic!

Finally, I was at the Texas Jam at The Cotton Bowl and what was stated on Behind the Music did NOT happen in the context that Tommy & Cahil said it did.

It was hotter then hell, people had been there since 9am tailgating etc., and by mid afternoon there were very FEW working bathrooms as the heat climbed and the beer poured. The booing that occured that Saturday Night happened because The Texas Blue Laws( stopping the sale of alcohol at 11:59pm on Saturday nights in Texas) were put into place right after Sammy Hagar finished performing at around 8:30pm. When they announced that the place went nuts. Styx had not even taken the stage yet. Top that off with Styx taking far tooo long to take the stage and you had some problems. The people that left were hot, drunk, pissing everywhere, and pissed off because they coulnd't get any more beer, the venue decided to enact their own laws, and there was no place to pee or you had to wait a hour if you needed privacy. I promise you that is what happened. The 30+ thousand fans that stayed LOVED it. So maybe there were 5,000 that left after Hagar it still had NOTHING to do with the Kilroy show.

I promise you that is what happened!
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby gr8dane » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:01 am

yogi wrote:At the time 1983 I HATED side 1 of the Kilroy album. Truthfully I disliked EVERY song at the time.

On the opposite end of that spectrum like with sooooooo many Styx albums I LOVED Side 2. I always purchased albums and I couldnt play Side 2 of Kilroy enough. On a BASF cassette in my Datsun B10 with a Jensen Stereo & Speakers I had the entire Side 2 of Kilroy followed by Side 2 of Equinox. Taped it from the album

As for the Kilroy tour say what you want, BUT it was utterly brilliant. A true rock opera that was soooo damn far ahead of its time. It was DDY brilliance. A movie, acting and a greatest hits concert woven into a theatrical show. It was PROG at its BEST! I saw that show 3 times. TOTALLY fantastic!

Finally, I was at the Texas Jam at The Cotton Bowl and what was stated on Behind the Music did NOT happen in the context that Tommy & Cahil said it did.

It was hotter then hell, people had been there since 9am tailgating etc., and by mid afternoon there were very FEW working bathrooms as the heat climbed and the beer poured. The booing that occured that Saturday Night happened because The Texas Blue Laws( stopping the sale of alcohol at 11:59pm on Saturday nights in Texas) were put into place right after Sammy Hagar finished performing at around 8:30pm. When they announced that the place went nuts. Styx had not even taken the stage yet. Top that off with Styx taking far tooo long to take the stage and you had some problems. The people that left were hot, drunk, pissing everywhere, and pissed off because they coulnd't get any more beer, the venue decided to enact their own laws, and there was no place to pee or you had to wait a hour if you needed privacy. I promise you that is what happened. The 30+ thousand fans that stayed LOVED it. So maybe there were 5,000 that left after Hagar it still had NOTHING to do with the Kilroy show.

I promise you that is what happened!


More or less with you.
Don't like side 1.But don't mind side 2.
The concert I saw,I was not impressed.It was just meh,too staged,I just couldn't get into it.But i am comparing to the Cornerstone and PT tours,which were better to me.
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby Cassie May » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:59 am

I HATED the Kilroy show. I was 18 at the time, and had seen the prior tours for Cornerstone and PT. I was originally supposed to see Kilroy in July, but the show was postponed to 9/11 due to Tommy's injury (which was explained away as he had locked himself out of his house and hurt his hand breaking a window to get in. That was the official story.). At any rate, when I think of that show (which I saw at Blossom Music Center, where Styx filmed the CYO show), the main word that comes to mind is embarrassing. I cringed during the entire show. I was embarrassed for the band, as they looked very uncomfortable and clearly out of their element (except Dennis, of course, who looked like he was having the time of his life). I disliked the movie, I hated the acting on stage, and I left the show feeling so let down. That was not the band that I remembered seeing on the previous two tours. I did not like the Kilroy album at all, but I went to the show because hey, it was Styx, and I wanted to see them despite the album. Even today, if I watch the show, I feel that same sense of embarrassment. I know other people loved the show, I know they (well, Dennis, at least) wanted to try something new, different, and forward-thinking, but that doesn't erase my original impression. Just my .02¢.
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby Toph » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:24 am

Monker wrote:
Wow, Monkey.


What's the matter? Feeling a bit frustrated?

Let's address your completely misguided post that said by summer 1983, Kilroy was dead. Kilroy was dead.


I was talking about its ability to produce singles. It was dead. People moved on. I don't care where a album is charted. There were ways of faking that.



Oh, ok, so now your theory involves faking charts. Oh-Kay...
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby Toph » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:31 am

Monker wrote:
they had the #8 album in the country when you say Kilroy was "dead." By July 4th, it was still #9. By the end of July, it was still in the top 20.


In other words, by the end of July, kerplunk. And, as I said, there are ways of faking a chart position. Back then, albums were counted by what left the warehouse - not by what sold (theory being; if it is not in the warehouse,it will eventually be sold). So, to keep position, all they had to do was ship more product. Don't know if that happened or not, but that is why I do not trust chart positions from back then.

[quote]

Hmmm....Not to throw facts in here, because that is beyond your grasp, but Don't Let It End peaked on July 2, 1983. (KWH was #9 album), HWBHB was slated to be released two weeks later on July 16th. How exactly is the Kilroy album dead at that point? Please help me understand that. As far as it being "dead" - I think not. The Mission would have love to come within a state of those chart positions. But let's not let facts interfere with your bullshit.
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby Toph » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:35 am

Monker wrote:
Its funny when you laugh about my comparison of Cornerstone to an album 2 years after it (1 year for Hi Infidelity) in the same genre


Because you are comparing the diamond standard of Journey albums to the mediocre standard of Styx albums. If you want a valid comparison, compare it to Departure....another album that had a couple good singles with a lot of other mediocre songs on the album. I think Departure is the better album, but still closer in comparison than Escape.


So, now since I've proven that your comparison is completely bogus, you now decide to switch to Departure? Make up your mind, what is it?

And Cornerstone is mediocre in YOUR opinion and yours only. At the time it was the highest charting STYX album when it was released, its biggest worldwide seller, and the only album still to earn a grammy nomination. So, what should I believe the RIAA, the Grammy people, the charts or some loser Styx fan who has an agenda? I know that's a tough one, but somehow I think I'm going with the former....
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby gr8dane » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:11 am

Had a good laugh,looking at the Styx on rateyourmusic.com.Of all the singles Styx put out while Dennis was in the band,Babe has the lowest rated average of them all.Guess it may have been #1,but like many # ones ,they may not age too well.The Ketchup Song was # 1 as well,now there is a memorable song.LOL :lol:
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby Boomchild » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:03 am

gr8dane wrote:Had a good laugh,looking at the Styx on rateyourmusic.com.Of all the singles Styx put out while Dennis was in the band,Babe has the lowest rated average of them all.Guess it may have been #1,but like many # ones ,they may not age too well.The Ketchup Song was # 1 as well,now there is a memorable song.LOL :lol:


I think a lot of music from that time period hasn't aged well. But let's put things in context and not take into the account personal feelings and opinions about the song. Air play and charting on Billboard does help sell singles and albums. This was Styx' one and ONLY #1 single. So they did something right but were never able to do it again. I'm sure one could search the internet and find all kinds of negative responses to this song or any song for that matter. However, this does not change the fact that it is still well received by the audience when Dennis plays it as his shows.

Now for me personally, I have really nothing against the song nor am I fearful of it as some of Styx' members seem to be. I will say as a dedicated fan that has seen Styx and DDY solo many, many times, I have gotten tired of hearing it. But trust me that it's not the only song I would put on that list.
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby Monker » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:16 pm

I was talking about its ability to produce singles. It was dead. People moved on. I don't care where a album is charted. There were ways of faking that.

Oh, ok, so now your theory involves faking charts. Oh-Kay...



No, I just don't trust charts and give them the endless credit that you do. I know for a fact that a label could manipulate them and did on occasion.

Monker wrote:

In other words, by the end of July, kerplunk. And, as I said, there are ways of faking a chart position. Back then, albums were counted by what left the warehouse - not by what sold (theory being; if it is not in the warehouse,it will eventually be sold). So, to keep position, all they had to do was ship more product. Don't know if that happened or not, but that is why I do not trust chart positions from back then.


Hmmm....Not to throw facts in here, because that is beyond your grasp, but Don't Let It End peaked on July 2, 1983. (KWH was #9 album), HWBHB was slated to be released two weeks later on July 16th. How exactly is the Kilroy album dead at that point? Please help me understand that.


The band was falling apart, general fan opinion and reception of the Kilroy album and tour had split the fan base by then. And, none of the songs left on the album were quality singles.

If your theory was correct and all it would take is to follow up with a new single and video, then "Cold War" would have been more accepted. It wasn't. Neither was "High Time". You can argue the quality of HWBHB but, IMO, it is a good song, but not a good single. The album had played itself out.

Again, to use my comparison to TBF....Journey had a decent single, followed it up with other decent singles. But, it was too late...by then it was out of the bag that there problems within the band. Perry had disappeared and the band was doing no promotion at all. No tour was being schedule...the fickle fans moved on to other things, just as they did with KWH.

As far as it being "dead" - I think not.


Of course, and you think that your opinion is a fact. It isn't.

The Mission would have love to come within a state of those chart positions. But let's not let facts interfere with your bullshit.


I'm not the one who is mistaking facts and opinions. But, I do know that an album can't have feelings so I don't know how you know what The Mission loves and what it doesn't.

So, now since I've proven that your comparison is completely bogus, you now decide to switch to Departure? Make up your mind, what is it?


You haven't proven anything. I stand by my comparing KWF with TBF because they both are examples of what happens to albums when the band falls apart. I am suggesting that YOU compare Cornerstone with a more "mediocre" Journey release, like Departure. I am not the one making this odd compariosn - you are. You are trying to make an argument that Journey (and the other bands) get away with releasin ballads by pointint to the diamond standard in their catalog. Perhaps they "get away with it" because they are outstanding songs and Styx didn't because they are very mediocre songs that are easily critiqued.

And Cornerstone is mediocre in YOUR opinion


That is true and I am not denying or arguing that.

and yours only.


That is not true. If you look at where fans rank Styx album, Cornerstone would not be at the top of the list. On average, I think GI would be. It would not be at the bottom either...the Wodden Nickel releases would average out on the bottom Cornerstone is somewhere in the middle, mediocre.

At the time it was the highest charting STYX album when it was released, its biggest worldwide seller, and the only album still to earn a grammy nomination.


Funny how a mediocre album can do all of that, isn't it? Funny how Styx' top albums, didn't. Maybe that is evidence that the charts and grammies and such mean a LOT less then you think they do.

So, what should I believe the RIAA, the Grammy people, the charts or some loser Styx fan who has an agenda? I know that's a tough one, but somehow I think I'm going with the former...


Of course you are....because it agrees with your opinion...and you have this driving desire to make that opinion a fact. But, I would find it pretty uncommon to find any poll with significant votes where Cornerstone is at the top of the list of best Styx albums.
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby Toph » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:30 am

Monkey Boy -

I just have one question for you. Did you work in the A&R department for A&M records anytime from the mid 70s throughout the mid 90s? Because if not, STFU. You don't know what you are talking about and are literally making a fool of yourself.
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Re: Why continue to bury the past?

Postby Toph » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:56 am

Monker wrote:

In other words, by the end of July, kerplunk. And, as I said, there are ways of faking a chart position. Back then, albums were counted by what left the warehouse - not by what sold (theory being; if it is not in the warehouse,it will eventually be sold). So, to keep position, all they had to do was ship more product. Don't know if that happened or not, but that is why I do not trust chart positions from back then.



Oh do you know that for a fact? Please tell us! Because I sure would have loved to have seen Nothing Ever Goes As Planned hit the Top 20. I would have loved to been able to have Mr. Roboto get past "Billie Jean" and actually hit #1. I'm sure the A&M A&R department would have loved to have gotten your advice on that. And again, Don't Let It End was still a top 10 song in the middle of July and the band was on tour. There was plenty of room for that third single.



The band was falling apart, general fan opinion and reception of the Kilroy album and tour had split the fan base by then. And, none of the songs left on the album were quality singles.

If your theory was correct and all it would take is to follow up with a new single and video, then "Cold War" would have been more accepted. It wasn't. Neither was "High Time". You can argue the quality of HWBHB but, IMO, it is a good song, but not a good single. The album had played itself out.

Again, to use my comparison to TBF....Journey had a decent single, followed it up with other decent singles. But, it was too late...by then it was out of the bag that there problems within the band. Perry had disappeared and the band was doing no promotion at all. No tour was being schedule...the fickle fans moved on to other things, just as they did with KWH.


There is so much absolute bullshit littered in these three paragraphs that I don't know where to begin. But first, I'll state this - you do a really good job of thinking that your opinion is a fact. Comments like "There were no other quality singles off the album" is about the most ignorant statement I've ever read. Did you read the market research reports on Kilroy? Were you in the back room of the focus groups when the singles were played for sample of radio listeners in specific demographics? Did you get the listener quantitative scoring on them? Don't know who to trust, Monkey's opinion or the people that decided to invest $300K in developing a highly complex video for HWBHB. Do you know how Cold War scored in the listener scoring? Maybe you are privvy to the research reports for TBF and can tell us how each of those singles scored? Really, I think we'd all be interested in that. So, maybe you can put a link out there with all the data supporting your argument?



You haven't proven anything. I stand by my comparing KWF with TBF because they both are examples of what happens to albums when the band falls apart. I am suggesting that YOU compare Cornerstone with a more "mediocre" Journey release, like Departure. I am not the one making this odd compariosn - you are. You are trying to make an argument that Journey (and the other bands) get away with releasin ballads by pointint to the diamond standard in their catalog. Perhaps they "get away with it" because they are outstanding songs and Styx didn't because they are very mediocre songs that are easily critiqued.



Again, why are you randomly deigning that KWF and TBF are similar albums? Why are you deciding that Departure and Cornerstone are similar? My argument, and one that you can't (or won't understand) is that Styx was doing nothing, and I repeat, nothing different than Journey or REO or Foreigner as far as their single release strategy. They would have been likely as successful as those band in terms of album sales had a certain member not decided to take the band hostage by not letting them release two singles on 2 separate albums that the data and research said were going to be pretty significant songs. What you seem to grasp is that potentially changes history and changes the band's future. As JY said, "There's no deodorant like success."

This gets to the fact that the short term breakup in 1979 and then the extended breakup in 1983 were more a function of Tommy Shaw than Dennis forcing them to play songs they didn't want to play.

At the time it was the highest charting STYX album when it was released, its biggest worldwide seller, and the only album still to earn a grammy nomination.


Funny how a mediocre album can do all of that, isn't it? Funny how Styx' top albums, didn't. Maybe that is evidence that the charts and grammies and such mean a LOT less then you think they do.


So, what should I believe the RIAA, the Grammy people, the charts or some loser Styx fan who has an agenda? I know that's a tough one, but somehow I think I'm going with the former...


Of course you are....because it agrees with your opinion...and you have this driving desire to make that opinion a fact. But, I would find it pretty uncommon to find any poll with significant votes where Cornerstone is at the top of the list of best Styx albums.


Facts are stubborn things, Monkey Boy. They tend to put holes in unsubstantiated arguments like yours. Cornerstone would have sold at least another 1 million copies had the original single strategy been pursued. Kilroy would have likewise done the same. The fact they didn't was a self-fulfilling policy and a hostage takeover by one member who used a singlehanded selfish agenda to disrupt the trajectory of two albums that would surely have done significantly better. As a result, the ignorant like yourself, can talk about how disappointing those two albums were. Fact of the matter is, if the marketing strategy gets implemented correctly, and the selfish baby is prohibited from having his temper tantrums, history changes.
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