Another year of HOF nominations out and...

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Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Toph » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:45 am

No Styx

Going to have to put a reunion together to make it happen, boys.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Boomchild » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:47 pm

Toph wrote:No Styx

Going to have to put a reunion together to make it happen, boys.


I don't think that is even a factor as to why they haven't been nominated. While Styx may have gained better acceptance by average music listeners, I think people in the industry still look at Styx as they always have. Since it's industry people that control who gets in, I doubt Styx ever will.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby ChicagoSTYX » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:26 pm

Boomchild wrote:
Toph wrote:No Styx

Going to have to put a reunion together to make it happen, boys.


I don't think that is even a factor as to why they haven't been nominated. While Styx may have gained better acceptance by average music listeners, I think people in the industry still look at Styx as they always have. Since it's industry people that control who gets in, I doubt Styx ever will.


Spinal Tap probably has a better chance!
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby LtVanish » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:24 am

You never know, the Moody Blues finally showed up on the list, it's crazy they are not in the hall. I think Journey opened the door for Styx to get in at some point. I will bet Foreigner will get in before Styx will though.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Boomchild » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:32 am

Well Styx is doing the Rockin' Romance Cruise so that should help get them a nomination.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby scarab » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:13 am

yes with boat full of cover bands and michael mcdonald they are a shoe in next year, but wait Larry and Chrissy's sister from Threes company and Delilah from late night "romance show" I see them in a wild card this year.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby yogi » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:38 pm

That Threes Company's song has ALWAYS been a gem!!!

Every year their music soundtrack got better and better.

Had Roper let them release the original score in season 1 they easily would be in the R&R Hall of Fame. He hijacked Jack, Crissey and Janet. His wife even wanted the original theme song released but he was soo doped up and held all the cards.

By the time Don Knotts joined the fray their time had passed. The show was stale and they were just going after oneliners instead of the total package.

You live by the one liner you die by the one liner.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby masque » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:12 pm

i dont know why I care. I go around proclaiming the hall is a joke, yet get pissed every year over most of the nominations.

it is highly unlikely styx will get in any time soon......there seems to be virtually no momentum for it. fanbase is splintered. Nobody famous is raising hell about bands like styx not making it. it may happen at some point, but seems distant at best.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Boomchild » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:34 pm

masque wrote:i dont know why I care. I go around proclaiming the hall is a joke, yet get pissed every year over most of the nominations.

it is highly unlikely styx will get in any time soon......there seems to be virtually no momentum for it. fanbase is splintered. Nobody famous is raising hell about bands like styx not making it. it may happen at some point, but seems distant at best.


Personally I could care less. If that effects how I feel about Styx then my interest in the band was for the wrong reasons. As I said above, over the years Styx has seemed to garner better general acceptance by music listeners in general. But, I don't think the same could be said for people in the industry. They look at Styx and bands like Foreigner as well as Boston as "corporate rock". I believe they don't feel bands like this did anything influential to warrant a nomination. If that is the case then why in the hell would Kiss be inducted. I don't think you could get more "corporate rock" then that. I remember DDY commenting in his FB post about his visit to the HOF that he sensed that even some of the employees felt Styx should be inducted. Go figure.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Boomchild » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:44 pm

scarab wrote:yes with boat full of cover bands and michael mcdonald they are a shoe in next year, but wait Larry and Chrissy's sister from Threes company and Delilah from late night "romance show" I see them in a wild card this year.


I was scratching my head when I saw they were doing this. They have made it clear that they didn't want Styx to really be a band that was known for doing ballads. Yet this is the type thing that bands like that would do. The only ballad that they are playing anymore is Lady. But then again, I haven't been going to their shows or paying attention to their set lists for over a decade.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Toph » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:21 am

Boomchild wrote:
scarab wrote:yes with boat full of cover bands and michael mcdonald they are a shoe in next year, but wait Larry and Chrissy's sister from Threes company and Delilah from late night "romance show" I see them in a wild card this year.


I was scratching my head when I saw they were doing this. They have made it clear that they didn't want Styx to really be a band that was known for doing ballads. Yet this is the type thing that bands like that would do. The only ballad that they are playing anymore is Lady. But then again, I haven't been going to their shows or paying attention to their set lists for over a decade.



It always been about the $$$$. Nothing else....
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby scarab » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:48 am

bummed even more Kansas has never been on the ballot.
One of the first successful progressive rock bands coming from America, and of all places... Kansas.
A band that never had ill will to past members, and even reuniting all past members on somewhere to elsewhere.
Sad that most know them from two songs that could be the least sounding Kansas songs, Carry on an DITW.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Toph » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:38 am

scarab wrote:bummed even more Kansas has never been on the ballot.
One of the first successful progressive rock bands coming from America, and of all places... Kansas.
A band that never had ill will to past members, and even reuniting all past members on somewhere to elsewhere.
Sad that most know them from two songs that could be the least sounding Kansas songs, Carry on an DITW.


Point of Know Return is also a classic.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby masque » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:05 am

scarab wrote:bummed even more Kansas has never been on the ballot.
One of the first successful progressive rock bands coming from America, and of all places... Kansas.
A band that never had ill will to past members, and even reuniting all past members on somewhere to elsewhere.
Sad that most know them from two songs that could be the least sounding Kansas songs, Carry on an DITW.



as you know I am an enormous KANSAS fan and I could not agree MORE.......it's truly pathetic that they are not in.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby masque » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:06 am

Toph wrote:
scarab wrote:bummed even more Kansas has never been on the ballot.
One of the first successful progressive rock bands coming from America, and of all places... Kansas.
A band that never had ill will to past members, and even reuniting all past members on somewhere to elsewhere.
Sad that most know them from two songs that could be the least sounding Kansas songs, Carry on an DITW.


Point of Know Return is also a classic.


hell yes it is!!!! it's basically a perfect album.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Baron Von Bielski » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:35 pm

Although I would love nothing more than for Styx to be accepted in the RaRHoF, unfortunately it’s never gonna happen. They simply don’t meet the criteria. First of all, the overall record sales aren’t there. They’ve sold less than half of what Journey has. Secondly, they aren’t exactly a huge influence on today’s artists or really any along the way. At least nobody is admitting so. Third, there’s no “edge” to their music as far as critics would classify. They were either a prog band or a straight up pop/rock band. Progressive bands like Yes and Genesis get credit for spearheading that genre. And finally, it seems a bit taboo for folks to admit being Styx fans. There’s a kind of shame involved and at times they’re even made fun of. I mean there’s an entire episode of That 70’s Show where all the kids pretty much slam Styx openly to each other, but you learn later that each of them secretly likes Styx, but were ashamed to admit it. Now I’m a huge fan. I’m not ashamed to admit so. I love Styx and don’t give a rats ass who knows or what they think. But all that equals no chance in Hell that Styx gets even a nomination, ever. Bands like Foreigner, REO Speedeagon, Kansas, Boston and Bad Company all have much better shots at getting in and there’s no way all of them get it.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Toph » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:08 am

Baron Von Bielski wrote:Although I would love nothing more than for Styx to be accepted in the RaRHoF, unfortunately it’s never gonna happen. They simply don’t meet the criteria. First of all, the overall record sales aren’t there. They’ve sold less than half of what Journey has. Secondly, they aren’t exactly a huge influence on today’s artists or really any along the way. At least nobody is admitting so. Third, there’s no “edge” to their music as far as critics would classify. They were either a prog band or a straight up pop/rock band. Progressive bands like Yes and Genesis get credit for spearheading that genre. And finally, it seems a bit taboo for folks to admit being Styx fans. There’s a kind of shame involved and at times they’re even made fun of. I mean there’s an entire episode of That 70’s Show where all the kids pretty much slam Styx openly to each other, but you learn later that each of them secretly likes Styx, but were ashamed to admit it. Now I’m a huge fan. I’m not ashamed to admit so. I love Styx and don’t give a rats ass who knows or what they think. But all that equals no chance in Hell that Styx gets even a nomination, ever. Bands like Foreigner, REO Speedeagon, Kansas, Boston and Bad Company all have much better shots at getting in and there’s no way all of them get it.


I have to disagree. First, if it was all about sales, 1/2 the acts in the RnR HOF would be out. And Styx did sell a lot in their heyday. You don't put out 5 straight top 10 charting albums, 5 straight triple platinum albums and not say you sell a lot. Secondly, Styx have some unique "stats" that make the Hall attainable. 8 top 10 singles. A top 10 single in 3 different decades. A top 10 single under 4 different presidential administrations. Voted the most popular U.S. Band Gallup in 1980. Grammy nomination for Cornerstone. People's Choice Award for Babe. More top 10 singles than Journey, REO, U2, Kansas, Boston, Bad Company and tied with Foreigner. More top 10 albums than all of those bands except Journey and U2. So, the stats are there.

As far as musical contribution -I think you have to acknowledge the marriage of Broadway and Rock, the contribution of the power ballad (was Lady the first one?), the eclectic mix of rock, pop, ballads, etc. The unique combination of acoustic, synth, acoustic piano, electric guitar. The vocal triads. The concept album format - no they didn't invent it, but they did contribute to it.

And how about the longevity? Beyond the 3 top 10s in 3 decades stat, let's talk touring. How about the fact that they were still headlining 20 years after they first headlined in 1977. The fact that from 1999 - now, they've been nonstop touring (albeit without Dennis) - in other words, how many millions of people have Styx played in front of during their career? I'd like to see that number.

So, that's a short argument as to why they should be considered.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Boomchild » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:27 pm

Toph wrote:I have to disagree. First, if it was all about sales, 1/2 the acts in the RnR HOF would be out. And Styx did sell a lot in their heyday. You don't put out 5 straight top 10 charting albums, 5 straight triple platinum albums and not say you sell a lot. Secondly, Styx have some unique "stats" that make the Hall attainable. 8 top 10 singles. A top 10 single in 3 different decades. A top 10 single under 4 different presidential administrations. Voted the most popular U.S. Band Gallup in 1980. Grammy nomination for Cornerstone. People's Choice Award for Babe. More top 10 singles than Journey, REO, U2, Kansas, Boston, Bad Company and tied with Foreigner. More top 10 albums than all of those bands except Journey and U2. So, the stats are there.


I believe that the most quoted album sales by DDY, the band and the press is 25 million. There are many bands\artists that have surpassed this number. Also, this is when they were "hot". Plenty of other bands\artists sustained high album sales for a much longer period.

Toph wrote:As far as musical contribution -I think you have to acknowledge the marriage of Broadway and Rock, the contribution of the power ballad (was Lady the first one?), the eclectic mix of rock, pop, ballads, etc. The unique combination of acoustic, synth, acoustic piano, electric guitar. The vocal triads. The concept album format - no they didn't invent it, but they did contribute to it.


I think the more appropriate term would be the marriage of rock and theater. Which they weren't pioneers. The Who "had been there and done that". In fact it was DDY himself that said he wanted to "immortalize" Styx like The Who had done and that was to get Styx "on film". Then you have the point that their biggest theatrical piece, KWH was panned and mocked more then accepted as a legitimate piece of work.



Toph wrote:And how about the longevity? Beyond the 3 top 10s in 3 decades stat, let's talk touring. How about the fact that they were still headlining 20 years after they first headlined in 1977. The fact that from 1999 - now, they've been nonstop touring (albeit without Dennis) - in other words, how many millions of people have Styx played in front of during their career? I'd like to see that number.

So, that's a short argument as to why they should be considered.


Therer are plenty of bands\artists that are still out there performing that had greater acceptance and accolades then Styx. Like it or not there is still a stigma within the industry surrounding the band and it's members. They control who gets nominated and inducted. You have to get past that hurdle and I doubt Styx will ever be able to do so. The fact that they disbanded at the peak of their popularity and it ended with their most criticized piece of work doesn't help them. Lastly there is the "hip and cool" factor. Neither of which has ever been associated with Styx.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Monker » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:38 am

Boomchild wrote:I think the more appropriate term would be the marriage of rock and theater. Which they weren't pioneers. The Who "had been there and done that". In fact it was DDY himself that said he wanted to "immortalize" Styx like The Who had done and that was to get Styx "on film". Then you have the point that their biggest theatrical piece, KWH was panned and mocked more then accepted as a legitimate piece of work.


The Who, Pink Floyd, Queen, and Genesis...they all did it and, arguably, did it better.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Toph » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:06 pm

So Boom and Monkeyboy consider themselves Styx fans, yet don't think they belong in the HOF. With fans like that....
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby masque » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:40 pm

Toph wrote:
Baron Von Bielski wrote:Although I would love nothing more than for Styx to be accepted in the RaRHoF, unfortunately it’s never gonna happen. They simply don’t meet the criteria. First of all, the overall record sales aren’t there. They’ve sold less than half of what Journey has. Secondly, they aren’t exactly a huge influence on today’s artists or really any along the way. At least nobody is admitting so. Third, there’s no “edge” to their music as far as critics would classify. They were either a prog band or a straight up pop/rock band. Progressive bands like Yes and Genesis get credit for spearheading that genre. And finally, it seems a bit taboo for folks to admit being Styx fans. There’s a kind of shame involved and at times they’re even made fun of. I mean there’s an entire episode of That 70’s Show where all the kids pretty much slam Styx openly to each other, but you learn later that each of them secretly likes Styx, but were ashamed to admit it. Now I’m a huge fan. I’m not ashamed to admit so. I love Styx and don’t give a rats ass who knows or what they think. But all that equals no chance in Hell that Styx gets even a nomination, ever. Bands like Foreigner, REO Speedeagon, Kansas, Boston and Bad Company all have much better shots at getting in and there’s no way all of them get it.


I have to disagree. First, if it was all about sales, 1/2 the acts in the RnR HOF would be out. And Styx did sell a lot in their heyday. You don't put out 5 straight top 10 charting albums, 5 straight triple platinum albums and not say you sell a lot. Secondly, Styx have some unique "stats" that make the Hall attainable. 8 top 10 singles. A top 10 single in 3 different decades. A top 10 single under 4 different presidential administrations. Voted the most popular U.S. Band Gallup in 1980. Grammy nomination for Cornerstone. People's Choice Award for Babe. More top 10 singles than Journey, REO, U2, Kansas, Boston, Bad Company and tied with Foreigner. More top 10 albums than all of those bands except Journey and U2. So, the stats are there.

As far as musical contribution -I think you have to acknowledge the marriage of Broadway and Rock, the contribution of the power ballad (was Lady the first one?), the eclectic mix of rock, pop, ballads, etc. The unique combination of acoustic, synth, acoustic piano, electric guitar. The vocal triads. The concept album format - no they didn't invent it, but they did contribute to it.

And how about the longevity? Beyond the 3 top 10s in 3 decades stat, let's talk touring. How about the fact that they were still headlining 20 years after they first headlined in 1977. The fact that from 1999 - now, they've been nonstop touring (albeit without Dennis) - in other words, how many millions of people have Styx played in front of during their career? I'd like to see that number.

So, that's a short argument as to why they should be considered.


toph, you hit the nail on the head. well said, I agree 100% with your post. styx is totally deserving of being in the hall and I think people forget that in their heyday they were literally one, if not the biggest band in america.....they were everywhere for many years. are they on the international level of queen? nope......but in america they were absolutely as big, if not bigger than queen and for more years.

look, every band can't be a band that sold 100 million albums........styx has done more than enough to get in. I'm with toph on this.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby masque » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:51 pm

and when you look at the list of who is in the hall and realize that acts like;

cheap trick
blondie
talking heads
joan jett
ELO
steve miller
pearl jam


and on and on and on.......I can make arguments for styx to absolutely be inducted before all of those acts above and several others already in.....i'm not saying I dont like those bands above, for the most part I do like some of them, love some of them even.....I feel some of them are deserving of being in the hall.......but if those acts are in then so should styx.

so should;

kansas
foreigner
reo speedwagon
boston
eric johnson
def leppard
huey lewis
gary moore
thin lizzy
iron maiden
king's x
joe satriani
steve vai
marillion
dream theater
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Boomchild » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:11 am

Toph wrote:So Boom and Monkeyboy consider themselves Styx fans, yet don't think they belong in the HOF. With fans like that....


Do you really think in such a simplistic way? Do you think that every band\artist that YOU are a fan of deserves to be inducted into the RRHOF? Is that the "litmus test" for YOUR choice of what music YOU like? My response was not a argument that they shouldn't be inducted. I am saying that your list of reasons doesn't hold up well when you compare it to other bands\artists. But, to answer your question I think they do deserve a shot. In general, I don't really care what the RRHOF does. Things like this don't shape what music I like or listen to. Nor does it effect what I think about a band or artist. The RRHOF is really about what members in the music industry "think" about bands\artists and does not have anything to do with what fans "think".

This subject reminds me of the message or point DDY was trying to make in The Grand Illusion. It also reminds me of the introduction he used to give to the song on the RTP tour. It's all bullshit.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby yogi » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:49 am

Its NOT BS at all Boom.

Had it not been for the R&R Hall of Fame and their induction I would of NEVER discovered Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five.

Thats ALL I listen to now!!!!!

PS: Once Segar was inducted I rarely throw up while listening to his music
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Cassie May » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:53 am

I think it's a travesty Pat Benatar is not in, but as a whole, I think the Hall itself is a travesty. It has strayed so far from its original premise, it's not even funny.
Sometimes it makes no sense at all.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Monker » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:58 pm

Toph wrote:So Boom and Monkeyboy consider themselves Styx fans, yet don't think they belong in the HOF. With fans like that....


Where did I say they don't belong in the HoF?

I'm sorry, but KWH is amateurish compared to The Wall, Tommy (or even Quadrophenia), Genesis' early work with Peter Gabriel was just as influential as Yes and Pink Floyd, and Gabriel was FAR more theatrical than DDY. You can argue about Queen vs Styx as far as the theater type influences...it doesn't matter to me much.
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Toph » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:08 am

Boomchild wrote:
Toph wrote:So Boom and Monkeyboy consider themselves Styx fans, yet don't think they belong in the HOF. With fans like that....


Do you really think in such a simplistic way? Do you think that every band\artist that YOU are a fan of deserves to be inducted into the RRHOF? Is that the "litmus test" for YOUR choice of what music YOU like? My response was not a argument that they shouldn't be inducted. I am saying that your list of reasons doesn't hold up well when you compare it to other bands\artists. But, to answer your question I think they do deserve a shot. In general, I don't really care what the RRHOF does. Things like this don't shape what music I like or listen to. Nor does it effect what I think about a band or artist. The RRHOF is really about what members in the music industry "think" about bands\artists and does not have anything to do with what fans "think".

This subject reminds me of the message or point DDY was trying to make in The Grand Illusion. It also reminds me of the introduction he used to give to the song on the RTP tour. It's all bullshit.


Wow, if we all just had your depth, Boomer. You are so brilliant and such a music aficionado.... :roll:
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Toph » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:12 am

Boomchild wrote:
Toph wrote:So Boom and Monkeyboy consider themselves Styx fans, yet don't think they belong in the HOF. With fans like that....


Do you really think in such a simplistic way? Do you think that every band\artist that YOU are a fan of deserves to be inducted into the RRHOF? Is that the "litmus test" for YOUR choice of what music YOU like? My response was not a argument that they shouldn't be inducted. I am saying that your list of reasons doesn't hold up well when you compare it to other bands\artists. But, to answer your question I think they do deserve a shot. In general, I don't really care what the RRHOF does. Things like this don't shape what music I like or listen to. Nor does it effect what I think about a band or artist. The RRHOF is really about what members in the music industry "think" about bands\artists and does not have anything to do with what fans "think".

This subject reminds me of the message or point DDY was trying to make in The Grand Illusion. It also reminds me of the introduction he used to give to the song on the RTP tour. It's all bullshit.


I think you summarize your feelings quite well here...

"Therer are plenty of bands\artists that are still out there performing that had greater acceptance and accolades then Styx. Like it or not there is still a stigma within the industry surrounding the band and it's members. They control who gets nominated and inducted. You have to get past that hurdle and I doubt Styx will ever be able to do so. The fact that they disbanded at the peak of their popularity and it ended with their most criticized piece of work doesn't help them. Lastly there is the "hip and cool" factor. Neither of which has ever been associated with Styx."

So, in one paragraph you've said:
- Styx has little accolades (or not enough to get in) despite the fact that I laid out a plethora of reasons why they should get in
- Styx can't get past the industry stigma around them
- Styx isn't cool

Like I said, with fans like you....
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby yogi » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:42 am

Just ordered my Sons of Apollo CD. Cant wait to hear the entire album.

Dream Theater in Austin December 1. Cant wait for that show. They will DEFINITELY be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

Styx too WILL get in one day but it will probably take a major tragedy within the band for it to happen. Since DDY and Tommy will both live into their 100's ( with Tommy touring the entire time ( 100 dates per year) ) its more then likely most of us will never see their induction. Our kids or grand kids will witness it.

They WILL get in!! Shi t they invented the power ballad( Lady) & co authored pomp rock ( with the Sweet), major hits in 3 decades ending with ( Show Me The way), musical theater( Heavy Metal Poisoning & Lonely People any one?), prog ( Suite Madame Blue, Come Sail Away, Love In The Midnight, Born for Adventure...), straight ahead rock & roll( Renegade, Blue Collar Man, The Grand Illusion) power ballads ( The Best Of Times, Love at First Sight), straight up Manilow ballads( Babe , First Time)techno ( Mr. Roboto, Music Time, High Time) Folk rock ( Boat On the River) hits,......, The kings of US rock for about 5-6 years... You name it they actually did it. Three lead singers, No band was as versatile as they were( and are). They are GREAT!!!!

They will get in. No doubt about it.

But....... does it really matter
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Re: Another year of HOF nominations out and...

Postby Boomchild » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:16 am

Toph wrote:
I think you summarize your feelings quite well here...

So, in one paragraph you've said:
- Styx has little accolades (or not enough to get in) despite the fact that I laid out a plethora of reasons why they should get in
- Styx can't get past the industry stigma around them
- Styx isn't cool

Like I said, with fans like you....


I can't help it if reality does not match what YOUR perception is. As far accolades from the public and those in the industry, yes there are plenty of other bands\artists that were given more attention then Styx. That's not to say Styx was not deserving of the same consideration. It's just how it is. The stigma both by people in the industry and the public is\was real. Critics were well known for not liking Styx' output. They dismissed them and in some cases down right mocked them. Other rock artists have dismissed and mocked the band. Even members of this forum have talked about how they have been teased or given a hard time for professing their liking of Styx. And no Styx was never considered "cool'. If you don't believe that, point out and article or whatever that shows they were thought of being so. Here is a question for you, just what do YOU think has stopped Styx from consideration for induction?
"If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter." George Washington
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