PLEASE READ:1st Time Poster/No Agenda...just facts

[tampadave]

I have never posted on this forum or any Journey Forum but read MR often and follow the craziness that is called Journey. I am a huge classic rock fan (REO, Styx, Journey, Skynyrd, Foreigner, etc.). I understand that many feel that with only one or two original members, they are cover bands. I, personally, just like going to the shows to hear the hits of my youth. I think L. Gowan does a great job for Dennis DeYoung in Styx but will catch DeYoung in concert as well.

I have seen Journey, numerous times, with S. Perry, Steve A., and saw them last year w/JSS. While I thought JSS did a great job and had amazing presence, what I ask myself is would I buy an album of new material. Maybe. I bought REO's new album but ended up listening to the Hi-Infidelity Live CD that came with it, way more than the new stuff.

The other question you really have to ask is how does Journey make more money? From touring and singing its Greatest Hits or from cutting a new CD? Here is an interesting link on just how much money artists make from CD's these days and all the one sided (to the record company) restrictions... http://www.futureofmusic.org/contractcrit.cfm.

While I agree that this recent situation reeks of unprofessionalism, and you can certainly say that with confidence, based on the above, I think that the majority of Journey fans would see a concert with a cover band singer, just as much as they would with JSS and would pay the tix for the show WAY before buying an album of new material. Now throw Perry back in there and you have a totally different story but from what I read, that doesn't seem like it will happen.

I guess my point is that most concert fans just want to relive the music of their youth and hear the hits sung like they remember them and don't care as much about authenticity of every original member. Not taking away from you hardcores, and I have much respect for your passion, but you are a minority. Add that with the record industry's monopoly and while I do not think they did it professionally, I also do not think that it was neccesarily a bad decision.

I would love to hear from you regarding my opinions, those from someone who has never written on this site, BT, any other Journey related site, doesn't know the band (wish I did, if only for free tix), etc.

Last thing...I wish JSS the best. He seems like a class act and was great when I saw him w/Journey.

[piecesofeight]

What you just summed up is what I have referred to here and there in my post. The general fan, which is who most are who go to concerts, especially the type of concerts most groups like these are now playing-are going for what you said above. As far as what you were trying to get across, you nailed it.

[tampadave]

Thanks! At least for my first post I did a good job. Somehow, in a bizzare way though, I was hoping Deano would curse me out just to be included. On a totally different subject, I wasn't around when the "Tapegate" happened. Is Deano's Blog from that still up or is there anywhere you can hear the proof? It would be interesting. Thanks! Dave

[Penguinpc]

I think your opinions are right on target. Personally, I would like to see the Escape/Frontiers/TBF line up, but the majority of people don't care and don't know what's going on right now. It wasn't the diehards that made Journey successful in the 80s. It was the casual fans who bought millions of records because Journey was at that time the flavor of the moment. A much better flavor of the moment, I might add, than many of the things that have come since. It's those casual fans that come out and make the tours successful, whether we like it our not. When I saw them on the Arrival tour, people would go pee or sit down or go to the concessions whenever a new song was played. I, personally, loved the Arrival songs and stood up for every one of them.

Incidentally, I've been lurking for a while and am surprised to see some of the posts here. In one post someone (I won't name them) calls someone else a fuck head. On most of the boards I post on, that is considered a personal attack and is not allowed. I often wonder if the people who post insults on message boards would have the balls to do it in person...

Can't we all just get along?

[ohsherrie]

Hi Tampadave. I think your first post was a good one and summed up the reality of the nostalgia band situation pretty well.

I think most of us were hoping that with the new infusion of ideas and songwriting skills from JSS Journey would become relevant again and possibly get on the charts. I personally think there was a good chance of that happening, but the egos prevailed.

Anyway, welcome to the fray.

[styxman]

Look I'm gonna go to war with you on this point about REO, their new album if listenned to carefully is their best ever output....seriously this new album is a fuckin' total full score, never has an REO album been so complete, by this I mean every song resonates truthfulness...

Like Styx had their gem Cyclo, Reo have come up with a masterpiece in their twilight years, this album fuckin' rocks. Journey would have gone to that place if Jeff had the reins but it's gone...totally fuckin' gone

[tampadave]

Styxman,

Wasn't inferring that the new REO CD was bad...quite good. My point is, in craving for nostalgia, I found myself listeing more to the bonus Live Hi-Infidelity CD, my point being that the majority will crave nostalgia more than new material. Not everyone, but most IMO.

Dave

[tammy]

Wonder if that is the curse of being a successful band? Audience just wants to hear the radio songs, go home & forget about the band until the next time they roll into town. If I were a creative performer (someone who writes as well as plays), I think I would be very, very frustrated & resentful.

[piecesofeight]

Wonder if that is the curse of being a successful band? Audience just wants to hear the radio songs, go home & forget about the band until the next time they roll into town. If I were a creative performer (someone who writes as well as plays), I think I would be very, very frustrated & resentful.

This time of year, yes. Within easy driving distance we have SO many fair, week long, three groups one night, typical summer shows playing. We used to go to many of these. Woud even take vacation time around them if we really wanted to see someone. They are GA, so show up early, etc. Yap with people all day in line. Most of these people are going to drink beer and hear the songs they grew up on. That's it. Most of them have no clue what is going on with these bands and they don't care.

[ironmountain]

You know, unfortunately most Journey fans or so called fans are in their 40's now, consumed with child raising, work, life and looking for an escape (pardon the pun). Folks don't have time or energy to digest new music from the bands of their youth's, they want to hear the stuff that made their heart pound as a teenager or partied to, as a young adult.

It's unfortunate for the artist, who's best material is probably behind them, but this is the case for Journey. Steve Perry's voice IS Journey, without him, they are nothing but a cover band. Steve Augeri and JSS, are wonderful guys, very classy, talented and professional, but yet deluded into thinking that the masses want to hear anything from Journey but the music from the late 70's - Trial By Fire.

[Matthew]

I think that the majority of Journey fans would see a concert with a cover band singer, just as much as they would with JSS

Exactly - so why not keep JSS if it doesn't make much difference to the live revenue? It's the name on the Marquee that draws in the casual fans. And what's so hard about recording a few tunes and releasing them as downloads for the hardcore?

This whole JSS business is still puzzling....I still haven't heard a take on it that really explains why it all went tits up....unless of course JSS himself made it clear that he was unhappy with just singing the hits in concert and not recording new material.

I wonder...would he have ended up resigning soon anyway? Just a thought...

[Rick]

I think that the majority of Journey fans would see a concert with a cover band singer, just as much as they would with JSS

Exactly - so why not keep JSS if it doesn't make much difference to the live revenue? It's the name on the Marquee that draws in the casual fans. And what's so hard about recording a few tunes and releasing them as downloads for the hardcore?

This whole JSS business is still puzzling....I still haven't heard a take on it that really explains why it all went tits up....unless of course JSS himself made it clear that he was unhappy with just singing the hits in concert and not recording new material.

I wonder...would he have ended up resigning soon anyway? Just a thought...

I don't think Jeff fit Neals idea as a Journey front man. That, after Jeff bailed his dumb ass out the year before.

[Crazie Scarab]

Journey could have had it all with JSS. That opportunity has now passed.

[Eric]

Great post, but without the hardcore fans those pricey VIP tix don't sell, the hardcore don't travel to see them, the hardcore don't self promote and bring large parties....etc. The dent will initially be small, but will grow larger as the hard core isn't introducing new fans to the band on an on-going basis. SOON, they are relegated to opener status (without their fans in the front rows).....or fair status. Sure, they'll be able to tour to a decent crowd playing the greatest hits, but they won't be relevant without new music.

They rebuilt their live brand through a decade of hard work and internet grassroot marketing. They toppled that in less than a year.

[MRMUSIC413]

You know, unfortunately most Journey fans or so called fans are in their 40's now, consumed with child raising, work, life and looking for an escape (pardon the pun). Folks don't have time or energy to digest new music from the bands of their youth's, they want to hear the stuff that made their heart pound as a teenager or partied to, as a young adult.

Excellent post.... it sums up the problem with a lot of rock fans (especially those in the US).

Why would anybody be too lazy to pick up a new album of great material by their favorite bands ? We all work hard, are married, have busy lives, etc... but that is a lazy excuse for people who do that. My wife & myself are in our early 40's, and same for our friends, and we all manage to pick up the newest cd's & dvd's by classic acts... and attend numerous shows yearly. We all obviously have a fondness for the songs/artists we grew up on, but how shitty is it to tell those favorite acts (in so many words) , "No thanks...I'm good... I heard my favorite stuff from you years ago...don't bother trying to make a new album." What a total f**kin' insult to a professional musician.

Most 'Classic Rock' format radio stations instill that same horrible mindest as well. They'll play new material by Springsteen, Petty, or the Stones, but most other classic acts new material gets breezed over if played at all, and the 'Average Joe' doesn't know new material is out, nor do they take the time to look. (Imagine that in an internet obsessed society.) That weakass mentality of the fans and the record/radio industry is killing rock music... and prevents alot of great longtime acts from remaining valid on radio... yet meanwhile they play year after year to 10,000 nightly at a shed - go figure.

It's time the industry starts using their heads again and convert those ticket sales to the baby boomers into record sales. These classic bands from the 70's and 80's didn't go from selling 2-3 million copies to 100,000 copies or less in recent years because they have deteriorated - it's because the industry and the attitude of the average fan has deteriorated and allowed them to be "out of sight & out of mind".

Pretty pathetic. What happens when the laziness of the public and radio forces these bands to 'call it a day'...and perhaps to soon ? Ironic isn't it - the lazy fans kill the bands they once loved...and the record/radio industry kills the very same acts commerically who have been paying their damn bills for the past 20-30 years..........

[StringsOfJoy]

It's time the industry starts using their heads again and convert those ticket sales to the baby boomers into record sales.

Frankly, it's the brilliant baby-boomers who are running the industry now who've managed to turn an industry that thrived in the 80s into the loser that it has become. Return on investment for the music industry has been absolutely PATHETIC for at least the last decade...you could do better by investing in government bonds.

Assuming you have an otherwise viable product (if anything music is cheaper to produce and there are more talented musicians out there creating it than ever before, and it's easier, not harder to discover them thanks to the internet), how incompetent and self-indulgent does your management have to be to accomplish that while other industries happily move forward at a comparatively blazing clip and even lending money to the government is more lucrative? Think about that.

Demographics are what they are. The fact is baby-boomers do not drive sales of music and they haven't for a very long time now. So the notion of some kind of back-catalog renaissance is a pure fantasy for people who don't want to discover new music or develop their musical taste beyond where they settled 25 years ago. I doubt that will ever change.

If you are a boomer, the notion of developing appreciation for new music is about as likely as your parents stepping beyond Buddy Rich, Big Band Music, Buck Owens, bebop jazz, or 50's style Rock-n-Roll, or early Beatles and getting into Journey and Def Leppard instead. Likewise, I don't think you would have imagined even Elvis's or the Beatles' back catalogue displacing Journey, Styx, Boston, and the other "melodic rock" bands of the 70s and 80s in market importance back then.

That's cool. People like what they like and they shouldn't feel guilt about it or pressured into changing it if they don't want to. But then, discovering new music DOES drive sales to some degree because you don't have that music yet do you? I've owned 90% of the existing Journey output for at least the last 15 years or so. How about you? That means little to no additional consumption of Journey music even from my own music budget...and I love Journey music. Multiply that industry-wide and basically most new sales are going to be to kids who were not even born when Kurt Cobain was still alive and who are curious about this "vintage" or "nostalgia" act. Remember when Pulp Fiction made Dick Dale cool and relevant again for a little while? That's what we've got to work with here. Dick Dale still puts on a kick-ass concert, BTW.

You may not like the comparison, but you'll get my point here: Barbra Streisand sells a mess of tickets at high prices to very well-produced shows, doesn't she. She's a very successful entertainer who, in fact, "keeps going away" so you do have a chance to miss her. But she doesn't move "record sales" does she? And she's not going to...unless she does the Sinatra thing or the Santana thing or the occasional Les Paul thing and gets newer artists to play with her on a record. You see what I'm saying? Rush, Ozzy, and the Who can land on the charts for a few weeks with an album but it doesn't stick and hardly moves any units in the end. You get an album with Journey plus a raft of guest performers/singers: Joss Stone, John Mayer, Keith Urban, Adam Levine, Pink, Gretchen Wilson (who was AMAZING at the VH1 Rock Honors...did you HEAR those pipes???), Avril Lavigne, or people in that type of pop grouping...and you will MOVE lots albums.

So long-story short: yeah, the industry's been mismanaged and they've probably missed some of the opportunities in the older boomer market because the industry's run by a bunch of management retards who can't cut it in more lucrative industries. But even I can't fault those guys too much for not devoting outsize resources to a market segment that isn't interested in discovering new music, already owns most of the existing recordings from "their" artists they're gonna own, and is distracted away from music by the responsibilities and preoccupations of family life, approaching retirement, financing college educations for their kids, etc...

[MRMUSIC413]

Demographics are what they are. The fact is baby-boomers do not drive sales of music and they haven't for a very long time now.

Exactly... and that's what I'm getting at about ticket sales. While the younger mainstream pop and rock acts dominate in online music and cd sales, acts that appeal to the baby boomers dominate ticket sales because older and more established rock acts completely outsell the kiddies 4-1. (But in the same breath, I haven't seen a record store in the last 10 years that won't tell you that their bread and butter is the 'return classic rock fan/collector'... the 'completist' who has to buy it all by numerous favorite bands. And yes - guilty as charged. LOL ) They need to convert those ticket sales to cd sales of new releases by these older acts. It's a huge market - should be room for everybody to thrive. Always found it odd that people could shell out a few hundred bucks for a show, but can't take the time to spend 10 bucks on that band's latest cd, knowing full well the band is going to play songs from it/promote it. It makes no sense. You would think they'd realize that there is too much money to be made there to let the concert industry thrive and not capitalize with new product sales. (Took the labels forever to wake up with live dvd sets and back catlog video sales reprints.)

Hopefully, as the record industry self destructs and slides away... and allows the new industry to become more artist based (direct internet sales, etc..) More bands will be "allowed" to thrive as they did years ago, instead of having a slew of clueless suits narrowing the field to 2 genres and hindering careers. Atleast their 'visibilty' should be higher...

Said it before...I'll say it again... time to nuke Viacom. LOL

[MRMUSIC413]

So long-story short: yeah, the industry's been mismanaged and they've probably missed some of the opportunities in the older boomer market because the industry's run by a bunch of management retards who can't cut it in more lucrative industries.

Great quote...

[tampadave]

I am glad that my first post ever started a calm, intelligent conversation about the problems in the industry and why a Jouney type band is more interested in hiring a cover band, sound-a-like SP singer, and sell 10K sheds every summer than keep a JSS who can instill new life and new music that will not be near as profitable for the band members.

It is indeed sad that the musicians are being quagmired into becoming a cover band without any of the creativity that made them successful being tapped. This, BTW, has been going on for decades. Look at the 25 traveling Coasters/Drifters/Platters triple bills playing bars and casinos with nothing close to an original member. It has been about nostalgia and not authenticity for decades and, most likely, will continue to be.

By the way, if you really want to look at a screwed up situation with a band, check out the link http://www.chuckthewriter.com/lrb.html. The 3 original members of the Little River Band, who wrote all the hits, cannot tour under the name as the name was bought by an American. That said, they still play, with no original members, 150-200 dates a year and do sound like the originals. If you think Journey is a messed up deal, this one is brutal.

One last interesting point is that many MR Bands now are realeasing CD's of cover tunes from the 70's & 80's (Def Leppard, Tesla, etc.) so even when they do record new material it is still nostalgia driven. It seems like the cycle will continue.

Cheers,
Dave

[Abitaman]

I am glad that my first post ever started a calm, intelligent conversation about the problems in the industry and why a Jouney type band is more interested in hiring a cover band, sound-a-like SP singer, and sell 10K sheds every summer than keep a JSS who can instill new life and new music that will not be near as profitable for the band members.

It is indeed sad that the musicians are being quagmired into becoming a cover band without any of the creativity that made them successful being tapped. This, BTW, has been going on for decades. Look at the 25 traveling Coasters/Drifters/Platters triple bills playing bars and casinos with nothing close to an original member. It has been about nostalgia and not authenticity for decades and, most likely, will continue to be.

By the way, if you really want to look at a screwed up situation with a band, check out the link http://www.chuckthewriter.com/lrb.html. The 3 original members of the Little River Band, who wrote all the hits, cannot tour under the name as the name was bought by an American. That said, they still play, with no original members, 150-200 dates a year and do sound like the originals. If you think Journey is a messed up deal, this one is brutal.

One last interesting point is that many MR Bands now are realeasing CD's of cover tunes from the 70's & 80's (Def Leppard, Tesla, etc.) so even when they do record new material it is still nostalgia driven. It seems like the cycle will continue.

Cheers,
Dave

All good ponts. I have felt this way since the early 90's-ERIC

[Liz22562]

Hi Tampadave,

I'm a Little River Band fan. I saw them when they performed at Vinoy Park in St. Petersburg approx 5 years ago. I can honestly tell you that I have no clue if any of them on stage were any of the original members or not (someone with more knowledge would know) but I can tell you there was 1 american and 4 aussies in the band. They sounded amazing and I was lucky enough to meet them after the show.

Had they not sounded like the Little River Band that I am a fan of, I would have walked away none the weary. I think that because I have never gotten into the "behind the scenes" info and nitty-gritty about them, I didn't judge them on anything other than how they sounded to me.

Oddly enough, the fact that I have read so much in regards to Journey over the last couple of years has put me into the mindset that I am not so sure I want to attend another one of their concerts unless Steve Perry is on stage with them. Something tells me it will be awhile untill hell freezes over.....

Peace to all~

[tampadave]

Liz,

The LRB was started in 1975 by Aussies Glenn Shorrock, Beeb Birtles, & Graeham Goble. Guitarist Steven Houdsen out of Nashville joined the band in 81 and later got the name in a absolutely insane set of circumstances outlined in the article that I linked in my earlier post. The current lead vocalist, Wayne Nelson, did sing lead on "Night Owls" but was not in the band when the other classics were written and recorded. Shorrock, Goble, & Birtles, who wrote and recorded all the hits can no longer tour under the Little River Band name but do play in Australia as GSB (the initials of their last names). The band you saw, who may have had Australian musicians, had no ties to the original band or the original hits other than "Night Owls". Funny enough, not knowing this, you enjoyed them in concert because they SOUNDED like the originals (which they do) but would not go see Journey with a sound alike Steve Perry lead singer, even though that Journey would be much more authentic than the LRB you saw 5 years ago.

Cheers,
Dave

[Muggins]

This is the most insightful and intelligent discussion I have ever read on MR.

[tampadave]

[quote]KUDOS
This is the most insightful and intelligent discussion I have ever read on MR.

Thanks so much! Dave[/quote]

[Wally_Hatchet]

Like many other bands, the current LRB lineup is a natural evolution of a 30+ year old band.

Some members quit or were fired while other members stayed on through the rough times.

If the three original songwriters no longer have the legal right to use their own band's name, it is nobody's fault but their own. Glenn quit the band - twice.

Stephen paid his dues with over 25 years tenure in LRB, and Wayne has been there since the early 80's too, with the exception of taking a few years off.

Housden legally owns the LRB name and the band still sounds terrific, and to this LRB fan, that is all that matters.

If the other guys (no pun intended) would have stuck around through the tough times, and took the time to protect their ownership of the band, they wouldn't be writing new songs whining about how someone else has "stolen their history".

That's just too damn bad for them. You snooze, you lose.

[Ehwmatt]

Long-time lurker here but was inspired to finally register by this post. Agree with a lot of the sentiments in the original post... I too am not too discriminating when it comes to "original line-ups" and the like, and I'm very in tune with the history/goings on of all my favorite bands. If it sounds good live and they put out good new material, then more power to whatever line-up they go with (Cyclorama, Styx's live performances since we're already using them as an example).

Journey's dismissal of JSS is sickening and I've lost all respect for Neal (my guitar hero... and he still is, regardless of his character) and Cain... but if they come through here and their new frontman sounds good, will I be there? Probably. I'm a young (21) fan of the AOR scene and I'm going to take every chance I can to catch all my favorite bands in concert, because who knows how many more chances I'll have the rest of my life. As far as the casual masses go, I would argue that the casual masses wouldn't know JSS from Steve Perry even if SP's nose used to poke them in the eye from the 10th row last time they saw the band in their youth. Sure he wasn't quite as mimicky as Augeri (who I also loved), but he did the material great justice and I don't think any concertgoer, casual or hardcore, would have been worse for the wear if he remained Journey's frontman.

But I definitely remain open to my favorite bands, regardless of their line-up. If they sound bad, then that's that. If it sounds good, then I'm not going to be any worse off when I fork out my hard-earned money to go see them.

And yes, the Little River band/BSG situation is a great example of this. I'm sure there are some diehard BSG purists who refuse to see or listen to any of the current LRB's output... and that would be their own tremendous loss. I've caught the current lineup twice live and have all three studio CDs they've released, as well as two live CDs and they are FANTASTIC. Not only do they do the original material great justice, but I'm inclined to say this line-up's output is some of the most overlooked melodic rock of the last 4 years or so... Test of Time and Where We Started From are great listens, and the Rearranged CD features rearrangements of a lot of LRB classics and a few of the new lineup's better songs as well... highly reccomend all three of those. Wayne Nelson and Greg Hind are outstanding vocalists in their own right (Hind even shares some Bill Champlin sensibilities - really nice vocal adlibs and such) By the same token, the BSG Full Circle DVD is outstanding - a great performance backed by outstanding production. Moral of the story? If BSG and the current LRB both came through my town, who would I pay to see? Both.

I may not respect Journey anymore, but if they get a good singer, you can bet I'll be there next time they come to Ohio. I don't need to respect someone to enjoy their work; otherwise I wouldn't listen to Don Henley, Van Halen, Frankie Sullivan's Survivor, or a plethora of other people who have pissed me off with their personal actions over the years. I've seen some here touch on the point that perhaps the internet and mass media have made it all too easy to miss the forest through the trees when it comes to bands and their politics/line-ups - I for one love to be informed, but I'm not going to let anything spoil my enjoyment of the music when it comes down to it. I urge others to try and take the same approach - there's no point in robbing your ears of good music!

[Abitaman]

- there's no point in robbing your ears of good music!

Kinda of how I feel. I still follow Journey, Styx, Foreigner, REO, Asia, Genesis, etc...through changes and sometimes back to the originals.
But I really grew to like JSS, and was looking forward to the music they COULD have done together.-ERIC

[Torch]

I'm sort of in the same boat as well. I'm still going to enjoy the music that I have (CD's, DVD's, etc.) but I probably won't spend anymore money on them. I'm just still so upset and shocked over the lack of professionalism we've seen, its hard for me to think of putting more money in their pockets. I still respect the talent that's there. Its just some of their people skills need some work.

By the way - Welcome Aboard, tampadave! I'm fairly new to the scene myself, but have found it *really* entertaining.

[Ehwmatt]

Definitely know what you mean about not wanting to put money in their pockets... but it's not like they're gonna end up on the streets busking with acoustics if I don't pay 40 bucks to see a concert. I'm only cheating myself. In the end of the day, music is a business just like every other entertainment industry and it's gonna be cutthroat... it'd be hard to only use products and services from company with "nice" management. It's just the nature of the beast. Disappointing, yes.. surprising? Not really. It's always been this way, we only see it more now because of the internet and such. Go and read an Eagles biography for a good example.

[tampadave]

Just to be clear guys (and gals), I wasn't ripping on LRB as I think they are fantastic. I just wanted to point out that their situation is much more disfunctional than Journey's but because most do not know (or care) they will spend the money to see LRB but now want to boycott Journey concerts with a sound-a-like singer. That is their perogative, no doubt but it is no different than the current Guess Who and many other bands that may, indeed, be coverish bands of the originals but sound the same so we can enjoy the music of our youth.

Last summer I saw both Styx and Dennis DeYoung and sang as loud to "Come Sail Away" with Lawrence Gowan singing it as I did with DDY singing.

I give the Journey, Survivor, etc. harcores credit for taking a stand and that is their right, and certainly do not defend Journey for the apparant way they treated JSS, but at the end of the day, they will still sell 10-15K at a shed singing the hits, and, when they can't do that, they will hit the casino's, county fairs, and whatever else can keep the rush of playing live and the cash that comes with it.

Being someone who was in the live entertainment business in front of audiences for 12 years and than lost my gig, I can tell you that the hardest thing to accept is not the money not coming in but the roar of the crowd. Ego's are hard to lose and these bands will pull out all the stops to keep the "rush" of the live audience singing along to the hits.

That said, I will be going next week to see The Guess Who and Grandfunk Railroad with a total combination of possibly 2 1/2 original members between both bands (if I'm lucky) and will, most likely, LOVE every minute of it. Just reliving my youth.

Cheers, Dave