The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

[conversationpc]

For 7 Wishes from FactCheck.org (a bi-partisan group)...

The Real Deal

So who is to blame? There's plenty of blame to go around, and it doesn't fasten only on one party or even mainly on what Washington did or didn't do. As The Economist magazine noted recently, the problem is one of "layered irresponsibility ... with hard-working homeowners and billionaire villains each playing a role." Here's a partial list of those alleged to be at fault:

The Federal Reserve, which slashed interest rates after the dot-com bubble burst, making credit cheap.

Home buyers, who took advantage of easy credit to bid up the prices of homes excessively.

Congress, which continues to support a mortgage tax deduction that gives consumers a tax incentive to buy more expensive houses.

Real estate agents, most of whom work for the sellers rather than the buyers and who earned higher commissions from selling more expensive homes.

The Clinton administration, which pushed for less stringent credit and downpayment requirements for working- and middle-class families.

Mortgage brokers, who offered less-credit-worthy home buyers subprime, adjustable rate loans with low initial payments, but exploding interest rates.

Former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, who in 2004, near the peak of the housing bubble, encouraged Americans to take out adjustable rate mortgages.

Wall Street firms, who paid too little attention to the quality of the risky loans that they bundled into Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS), and issued bonds using those securities as collateral.

The Bush administration, which failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market.

An obscure accounting rule called mark-to-market, which can have the paradoxical result of making assets be worth less on paper than they are in reality during times of panic.

Collective delusion, or a belief on the part of all parties that home prices would keep rising forever, no matter how high or how fast they had already gone up.

The U.S. economy is enormously complicated. Screwing it up takes a great deal of cooperation. Claiming that a single piece of legislation was responsible for (or could have averted) the crisis is just political grandstanding. We have no advice to offer on how best to solve the financial crisis. But these sorts of partisan caricatures can only make the task more difficult.

–by Joe Miller and Brooks Jackson

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008 ... risis.html

[Barb]

You must be the one with the IQ deficit. It's not me painting anything. Ayers painted this canvas all by himself.

Bill Ayers is a senior professor of education who is more accomplished than anyone on this forum.
To keep referring to him as a radical terrorist is to cheaply play on post-911 fears and to insult the intelligence of the voting public.
You guys only win by appealing to the baser instincts of human nature.
Sarah Palin, the embodiment of Jerry Springer white trash, clinches it.

It should be no surprise to me that you would defend this piece of shit, but you really do leave me speechless sometimes, TNC.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9679C8B63

And please note the date published.

[Rick]

The fact of the matter is, here and elsewhere, the bulk of the blame has been hefted on the Democrats shoulders for the F&F crisis.

[conversationpc]

The fact of the matter is, here and elsewhere, the bulk of the blame has been hefted on the Democrats shoulders for the F&F crisis.

Not from this guy. If it seems that I am blaming Dems more, it's only to show that there are libs worthy of blame along with the Repubs who've been name here by partisans.

[Rick]

The fact of the matter is, here and elsewhere, the bulk of the blame has been hefted on the Democrats shoulders for the F&F crisis.

Not from this guy. If it seems that I am blaming Dems more, it's only to show that there are libs worthy of blame along with the Repubs who've been name here by partisans.

No, but I get a feeling you have an innate dislike for Dems, as again depicted by your av pic. It speaks volumes.

[treetopovskaya]

you are just clueless.

the ny times reported that ayers has terrorist ties... the ny times... the most lib newspaper in all the land.

You must be the one with the IQ deficit. It's not me painting anything. Ayers painted this canvas all by himself.

Bill Ayers is a senior professor of education who is more accomplished than anyone on this forum.
To keep referring to him as a radical terrorist is to cheaply play on post-911 fears and to insult the intelligence of the voting public.
You guys only win by appealing to the baser instincts of human nature.
Sarah Palin, the embodiment of Jerry Springer white trash, clinches it.

[conversationpc]

The fact of the matter is, here and elsewhere, the bulk of the blame has been hefted on the Democrats shoulders for the F&F crisis.

Not from this guy. If it seems that I am blaming Dems more, it's only to show that there are libs worthy of blame along with the Repubs who've been name here by partisans.

No, but I get a feeling you have an innate dislike for Dems, as again depicted by your av pic. It speaks volumes.

No, I have an innate dislike for Leftist Dems, the ones who seem to be in control of the party currently.

[treetopovskaya]

it was interesting. }:C)

i was there!

i'm no longer a political rally virgin. }:C)

there had to be more than 13,000 people... the place was PACKED!

well dog gone it sarah is in so cal and she didn't call me!

now she spouts, as she wrinkles up that cute nose of hers, that barack is "palling around with terrorists" that target their (this) country. who the heck is she talkin bout anyway??

Did she fill up the Home Depot Tennis Stadium in Carson? That holds 13,000 doesn't it? , strange how she's filling up all these venues when she's so stupid and everyone hates her.

So how was it? I'm hoping they come to Nor Cal. I'd like to attend a rally just once.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Educated morons don't impress me very much. Being a decent person and doing no harm to innocent people is far more admirable than anything that wretch Ayers has done in his life. He can be a snooty professor if he wants, but that'll never make up for the crimes he committed.

That you would even bother to defend this loser is a pretty good indication of your lack of real intellectual depth. This would be akin to my supporting another great American loser, David Duke. Put that in your leftist cigar and take a good, deep whiff.

Anyone who wants to read just a cursory write-up on this loser can do so here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

David Duke, as far as I am aware, has not devoted his life to elementary education, has recieved ZERO awards from his community, has not been published in respected academic journals, and his PhD isn't even real. Showing disdain for education, by the way, is one of the 14 signs of fascism.

[Barb]

Educated morons don't impress me very much. Being a decent person and doing no harm to innocent people is far more admirable than anything that wretch Ayers has done in his life. He can be a snooty professor if he wants, but that'll never make up for the crimes he committed.

That you would even bother to defend this loser is a pretty good indication of your lack of real intellectual depth. This would be akin to my supporting another great American loser, David Duke. Put that in your leftist cigar and take a good, deep whiff.

Anyone who wants to read just a cursory write-up on this loser can do so here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

David Duke, as far as I am aware, has not devoted his life to elementary education, has recieved ZERO awards from his community, has not been published in respected academic journals, and his PhD isn't even real. Showing disdain for education, by the way, is one of the 14 signs of fascism.

I may be wrong, but blowing up the pentagon may also be a sign of fascism.

[conversationpc]

It should be no surprise to me that you would defend this piece of shit, but you really do leave me speechless sometimes, TNC.

Anyone who would support a piece of crap like Ayers has no credibility AT ALL on politics.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DE1438F932A2575AC0A9679C8B63

Individual quotes from that article...

''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.''

He writes that he participated in the bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, of the Capitol building in 1971, the Pentagon in 1972. But Mr. Ayers also seems to want to have it both ways, taking responsibility for daring acts in his youth, then deflecting it.

Mr. Ayers, who in 1970 was said to have summed up the Weatherman philosophy as: ''Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at,''

''Everything was absolutely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon,'' he writes. But then comes a disclaimer: ''Even though I didn't actually bomb the Pentagon -- we bombed it, in the sense that Weathermen organized it and claimed it.'' He goes on to provide details about the manufacture of the bomb and how a woman he calls Anna placed the bomb in a restroom. No one was killed or injured, though damage was extensive.

Between 1970 and 1974 the Weathermen took responsibility for 12 bombings, Mr. Ayers writes, and also helped spring Timothy Leary (sentenced on marijuana charges) from jail.

So, would Mr. Ayers do it all again, he is asked? ''I don't want to discount the possibility,'' he said.

[The_Noble_Cause]

you are just clueless.

the ny times reported that ayers has terrorist ties... the ny times... the most lib newspaper in all the land.

Yeah, maybe 40 years ago.
The fact that you attended your first political rally today well into your adult years tells me all I need to know about your political acumen.

[nolippin]

That same NYT piece cited that Obama and Ayers had only a casual association.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-tr ... _arti.html

In fact, both a Washington Post article in April and today's New York Times piece revealed Obama and Ayers to have had only a casual association: the former radical hosted a coffee for Obama's first bid for state Senate, they served together on an educational charity board and both live in Chicago's Hyde Park.

Obama has taken pains to minimize their connection, calling Ayers "somebody who worked on education issues in Chicago that I know" and "somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was eight."



No one wants to address Sarah Palin's current association with Thomas Muthee...a witch hunter?

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/arc ... -governor/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ashes.html

you are just clueless.

the ny times reported that ayers has terrorist ties... the ny times... the most lib newspaper in all the land.

You must be the one with the IQ deficit. It's not me painting anything. Ayers painted this canvas all by himself.

Bill Ayers is a senior professor of education who is more accomplished than anyone on this forum.
To keep referring to him as a radical terrorist is to cheaply play on post-911 fears and to insult the intelligence of the voting public.
You guys only win by appealing to the baser instincts of human nature.
Sarah Palin, the embodiment of Jerry Springer white trash, clinches it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

And please note the date published.

So fucking what?
This was printed before the attacks.

[conversationpc]

David Duke, as far as I am aware, has not devoted his life to elementary education, has recieved ZERO awards from his community, has not been published in respected academic journals, and his PhD isn't even real.

If Ayers were to ever express any real regret about his actions, this lame argument might at least attempt to get off the ground.

Showing disdain for education, by the way, is one of the 14 signs of fascism.

Twisting the words of others for things they didn't say is the sign of an intellectual vacant. I should have to explain this but since it seems that I'm dealing with someone with the intellect of a brainless slug...An educated moron is someone who is obviously intelligent, has a college degree of some kind, but lacks common sense and/or common decency, of which Ayers is so obviously a card-carrying member. I've got a college education. My brother, whom I highly respect, has a college education. My wife has a college education and most of the people I know, like, and associate with have college educations.

[The_Noble_Cause]

No, I have an innate dislike for Leftist Dems, the ones who seem to be in control of the party currently.

No, it is the Leftist dems who fought the bailout tooth and nail, while the rest caved.

[nolippin]

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/11/nextswiftboat

Next Generation Swift Boaters

In 2004, Harold Simmons was the biggest funder of the manipulative smear group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. In 2008, Simmons is the sole donor funding a vicious attack ad in some battleground states that uses tortured logic and clumsy innuendo to invent a tie between Barack Obama and terrorism.

The ad goes completely beyond the pale by cynically exploiting the tragedy of 9/11 in an unfounded connection with Chicago academic William Ayers. Then it claims that Ayers somehow “launched” Barack Obama’s career — an assertion so outlandish that not even Simmons’ fellow discredited Swift Boater Jerome Corsi included it in his smear book.

The ad may even be a criminal violation of campaign finance laws. Simmons has previously been fined tens of thousands of dollars for campaign finance violations – including forging the signatures of his own daughters to make political contributions from trust funds.

[7 Wishes]

The difference is, Dave, your piece didn't actually cite any facts or legislation. It was all inferred.

Sorry.

[treetopovskaya]

how many have you attended smart guy?

you're going to belittle someone for going to a rally. how petty & stupid.

you are just clueless.

the ny times reported that ayers has terrorist ties... the ny times... the most lib newspaper in all the land.

Yeah, maybe 40 years ago.
The fact that you attended your first political rally today well into your adult years tells me all I need to know about your political acumen.

[The_Noble_Cause]

how many have you attended smart guy?

957
You shoulda seen Martin Van Buren tear the roof off the joint.

[Barb]

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/11/nextswiftboat

Next Generation Swift Boaters

In 2004, Harold Simmons was the biggest funder of the manipulative smear group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. In 2008, Simmons is the sole donor funding a vicious attack ad in some battleground states that uses tortured logic and clumsy innuendo to invent a tie between Barack Obama and terrorism.

The ad goes completely beyond the pale by cynically exploiting the tragedy of 9/11 in an unfounded connection with Chicago academic William Ayers. Then it claims that Ayers somehow “launched” Barack Obama’s career — an assertion so outlandish that not even Simmons’ fellow discredited Swift Boater Jerome Corsi included it in his smear book.

The ad may even be a criminal violation of campaign finance laws. Simmons has previously been fined tens of thousands of dollars for campaign finance violations – including forging the signatures of his own daughters to make political contributions from trust funds.

Nice attempt by the Obama campaign, but the truth will come out. I'm sure you know that this site is run by Barack Obama's campaign, right? I view this as no more credible than you would a defense written by John McCain's campaign.

[Barb]

how many have you attended smart guy?

957
You shoulda seen Martin Van Buren tear the roof off the joint.

That explains everything ... and I mean everything.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If Ayers were to ever express any real regret about his actions, this lame argument might at least attempt to get off the ground.

He can make amends with Jesus. It's none of my concern.
To continually monstrify a guy on ONE issue when he's devoted much of his life to considerable good is an abuse of the public trust.
If the distinction doesn't matter, as you seem to think, why not call him a reformed terrorist or a former terrorist?

I've got a college education. My brother, whom I highly respect, has a college education. My wife has a college education and most of the people I know, like, and associate with have college educations.

Elitist pieces of shit. Every last one of you.

[conversationpc]

The difference is, Dave, your piece didn't actually cite any facts or legislation. It was all inferred.

Sorry.

As has been previously stated by myself and others in this thread (and I have noted legislation here previously), it is too easy to pick and choose certain bills that may or may not have been voted on by certain politicans and use that to say that they are responsible for whatever the particular problem is at the time.

Stu pointed out here that the one bill he mentioned that is part of this whole mess was voted for by 90 Senate members. That means a vast majority of both parties voted for it. Same thing happened in the House. There have been other bills with similar results and some not so close with either Dems or Repubs supposedly responsible for the passing or failure.

It's a shell game and since there is so much legislation to consider, there's no way in hell that anyone taking an objective look at this whole issue could come to a conclusion other than to say that both major parties are equally to blame.

Sorry but you need to try harder.

[nolippin]

The NYT also found them to have only a casual association.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why some seem so outraged by Bill Ayers and determined to tie him to Obama, but give Sarah Palin's endorsement of Thomas Muthee a free pass.

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/11/nextswiftboat

Next Generation Swift Boaters

In 2004, Harold Simmons was the biggest funder of the manipulative smear group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. In 2008, Simmons is the sole donor funding a vicious attack ad in some battleground states that uses tortured logic and clumsy innuendo to invent a tie between Barack Obama and terrorism.

The ad goes completely beyond the pale by cynically exploiting the tragedy of 9/11 in an unfounded connection with Chicago academic William Ayers. Then it claims that Ayers somehow “launched” Barack Obama’s career — an assertion so outlandish that not even Simmons’ fellow discredited Swift Boater Jerome Corsi included it in his smear book.

The ad may even be a criminal violation of campaign finance laws. Simmons has previously been fined tens of thousands of dollars for campaign finance violations – including forging the signatures of his own daughters to make political contributions from trust funds.

Nice attempt by the Obama campaign, but the truth will come out. I'm sure you know that this site is run by Barack Obama's campaign, right? I view this as no more credible than you would a defense written by John McCain's campaign.

[treetopovskaya]

lol!

that many & yer still votin wrong?

heh.

how many have you attended smart guy?

957

[conversationpc]

He can make amends with Jesus. It's none of my concern.
To continually monstrify a guy on ONE issue when he's devoted much of his life to considerable good is an abuse of the public trust.
If the distinction doesn't matter, as you seem to think, why not call him a reformed terrorist or a former terrorist?

He's not reformed. He's not repentent. End of argument.

I've got a college education. My brother, whom I highly respect, has a college education. My wife has a college education and most of the people I know, like, and associate with have college educations.

Elitist pieces of shit. Every last one of you.

Your hypocrisy is simply astounding. You know absolutely nothing about my wife, brother, friends, etc. The only "Elitist piece of shit" on this entire forum is you. You are subhuman trash.

Just replace the below picture of Biden with TNC...

[Barb]

The NYT also found them to have only a casual association.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why some seem so outraged by Bill Ayers and determined to tie him to Obama, but give Sarah Palin's endorsement of Thomas Muthee a free pass.

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/11/nextswiftboat

Next Generation Swift Boaters

In 2004, Harold Simmons was the biggest funder of the manipulative smear group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. In 2008, Simmons is the sole donor funding a vicious attack ad in some battleground states that uses tortured logic and clumsy innuendo to invent a tie between Barack Obama and terrorism.

The ad goes completely beyond the pale by cynically exploiting the tragedy of 9/11 in an unfounded connection with Chicago academic William Ayers. Then it claims that Ayers somehow “launched” Barack Obama’s career — an assertion so outlandish that not even Simmons’ fellow discredited Swift Boater Jerome Corsi included it in his smear book.

The ad may even be a criminal violation of campaign finance laws. Simmons has previously been fined tens of thousands of dollars for campaign finance violations – including forging the signatures of his own daughters to make political contributions from trust funds.

Nice attempt by the Obama campaign, but the truth will come out. I'm sure you know that this site is run by Barack Obama's campaign, right? I view this as no more credible than you would a defense written by John McCain's campaign.

Oh, the NY Times says it's a casual relationship. I'm convinced.

Who is Thomas Muthee? Has he kileld people? Blown up federal buildings? Oh no wait...

The content of prayers led by Muthee at the Wasilla Assembly of God have been the subject of internationally reported news stories about his beliefs as expressed in the prayers, such as that God may intervene in Alaskan state elections on behalf of Palin and that witchcraft exists, as exemplified in his widely quoted 2005 prayer over Palin before the Wasilla Assembly of God, "bring finances her way even for the campaign in the name of Jesus... Use her to turn this nation the other way around and to keep her safe from every form of witchcraft."[13] Following Palin's subsequent 2006 victory in the governors race, this Muthee led prayer at the church was described as having “prophetic power” by church pastor, Ed Kalnins.[8] In a June 2008 speech to the Wasilla church, Governor Palin referred to this specific prayer led by Muthee, described Muthee as “really bold,” and his way of speaking and prayer as “very, very powerful.”[8] Muthee returned to the Wasilla church for the weekend of September 20-22, 2008.[14][15] The Boston Herald described this as "all smoke and no fire" [16] pointing out that "The video of a Kenyan bishop asking Jesus to protect Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin from “witchcraft” has turned into a political witch hunt, says one Harvard expert who found “nothing unusual” about the blessing."

[Barb]

The only "Elitist piece of shit" on this entire forum is you. You are subhuman trash.

A-fucking men.

[nolippin]

The guy's a nutcase...a witch hunter endorsed by Sarah Palin as recently as June of this year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ashes.html


pastor friend who waged witch-hunt against woman he believed caused car crashes
By Paul Thompson
Last updated at 10:40 AM on 18th September 2008


Vice presidential pick Sarah Palin is known for her strident views on religion and the power of prayer.
But her credibility is once again being questioned after an African pastor she credits with helping her political career was revealed to have waged a witch-hunt against a woman who was said to cause car crashes with her "demonic spells."

In June, Palin told how a visiting pastor from Kenya had foretold she was destined for greater things.
She told other members of the Assembly of God church in her home town of Wasilla, Alaska, that Thomas Muthee had laid his hands on her head and prayed over her when they met in 2005.
After what the 44-year-old described as his "awesome" prayer she went on to become Alaska's first governor.
Recalling the event, Palin said “As I was mayor and Pastor Muthee was here and he was praying over me, and you know how he speaks and he’s so bold.

"And he was praying “Lord make a way, Lord make a way.
“And I’m thinking, this guy’s really bold, he doesn’t even know what I’m going to do, he doesn’t know what my plans are.
"And he’s praying not “oh Lord if it be your will may she become governor,” no, he just prayed for it.
"He said “Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that’s exactly what happened.”
Muthee had visited her church in Alaska in his role as the founder of the Word of Faith Church, also known as the Prayer Cave.

But it has now emerged that he was once involved in driving out a woman from her home who local villagers believed was a witch.
The pastor speaks of his offensive against a demonic presence in the town of Kiambu in a trailer for a evangelical video “Transformations”, made by a Christian research and information agency.
The full Transformations video featuring Muthee’s story was on YouTube but has now been removed.
Details of what happened were reported at the time in the Christian Science Monitor, as well as on numerous evangelical websites.
According to the Monitor, six months of prayer and research identified the source of the witchcraft as a local woman called Mama Jane.
Sarah Palin has come under fire over her friendship with the pastor
Her alleged involvement in fortune-telling and the fact that she lived near the site of a number of fatal car accidents led Pastor Muthee to publicly brand her a witch.
He ordered her to offer her up her soul for salvation or leave Kiambu.
“Muthee held a crusade that 'brought about 200 people to Christ'”, the Monitor said.

They set up round-the-clock prayer intercession and eventually, says the pastor “the demonic influence was broken”, and Mama Jane fled the town.
According to accounts of the witch-hunt circulated on evangelical websites, after Mutheee spoke out against Mama Jane many villagers demanded she be stoned.

Police raided her home and shot a pet python which was believed to be a demon.
Muthee,who said he became a pastor after "God spoke" to him in 1989, has frequently referred to this witch-hunt in his sermons as an example of the power of “spiritual warfare”.

The NYT also found them to have only a casual association.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why some seem so outraged by Bill Ayers and determined to tie him to Obama, but give Sarah Palin's endorsement of Thomas Muthee a free pass.

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/11/nextswiftboat

Next Generation Swift Boaters

In 2004, Harold Simmons was the biggest funder of the manipulative smear group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. In 2008, Simmons is the sole donor funding a vicious attack ad in some battleground states that uses tortured logic and clumsy innuendo to invent a tie between Barack Obama and terrorism.

The ad goes completely beyond the pale by cynically exploiting the tragedy of 9/11 in an unfounded connection with Chicago academic William Ayers. Then it claims that Ayers somehow “launched” Barack Obama’s career — an assertion so outlandish that not even Simmons’ fellow discredited Swift Boater Jerome Corsi included it in his smear book.

The ad may even be a criminal violation of campaign finance laws. Simmons has previously been fined tens of thousands of dollars for campaign finance violations – including forging the signatures of his own daughters to make political contributions from trust funds.

Nice attempt by the Obama campaign, but the truth will come out. I'm sure you know that this site is run by Barack Obama's campaign, right? I view this as no more credible than you would a defense written by John McCain's campaign.

Oh, the NY Times says it's a casual relationship. I'm convinced.

Who is Thomas Muthee? Has he kileld people? Blown up federal buildings? Oh no wait...

The content of prayers led by Muthee at the Wasilla Assembly of God have been the subject of internationally reported news stories about his beliefs as expressed in the prayers, such as that God may intervene in Alaskan state elections on behalf of Palin and that witchcraft exists, as exemplified in his widely quoted 2005 prayer over Palin before the Wasilla Assembly of God, "bring finances her way even for the campaign in the name of Jesus... Use her to turn this nation the other way around and to keep her safe from every form of witchcraft."[13] Following Palin's subsequent 2006 victory in the governors race, this Muthee led prayer at the church was described as having “prophetic power” by church pastor, Ed Kalnins.[8] In a June 2008 speech to the Wasilla church, Governor Palin referred to this specific prayer led by Muthee, described Muthee as “really bold,” and his way of speaking and prayer as “very, very powerful.”[8] Muthee returned to the Wasilla church for the weekend of September 20-22, 2008.[14][15] The Boston Herald described this as "all smoke and no fire" [16] pointing out that "The video of a Kenyan bishop asking Jesus to protect Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin from “witchcraft” has turned into a political witch hunt, says one Harvard expert who found “nothing unusual” about the blessing."