Tonight's the night

[Scarab Pilot]

The bottomline is that Schon and Cain needs Perry as a counterweight. Even on Arrival, when they had Augeri (who successfully managed to have his own style going), there were quite a few fillers with the typical cliche filled Cain lyrics. With the departure of Perry, Journey became lightweight in a way they'd never been before. Compare with the real emotion/pain courtesy of Perry on Trial By Fire. So in a way, the last Journey album was Trial By Fire. For it to work, there must be Schon, Cain and a Perry. And one shouldn't understate Smith's importance either. Castronovo has mean pipes but his bashing style isn't really Journey.

The detoriation already started with Generations, but it first went pear shaped big time with Revelation where they really do sound like a cover band of themselves, trying to channel the sound they once had, but falling way off the mark. For lack of better words, they now sound like a run of the mill AOR band, whereas on Raised on Radio they sounded like a million bucks.

That's the best way I can put it.

Well put.

[portland]

The bottomline is that Schon and Cain needs Perry as a counterweight. Even on Arrival, when they had Augeri (who successfully managed to have his own style going), there were quite a few fillers with the typical cliche filled Cain lyrics. With the departure of Perry, Journey became lightweight in a way they'd never been before. Compare with the real emotion/pain courtesy of Perry on Trial By Fire. So in a way, the last Journey album was Trial By Fire. For it to work, there must be Schon, Cain and a Perry. And one shouldn't understate Smith's importance either. Castronovo has mean pipes but his bashing style isn't really Journey.

The detoriation already started with Generations, but it first went pear shaped big time with Revelation where they really do sound like a cover band of themselves, trying to channel the sound they once had, but falling way off the mark. For lack of better words, they now sound like a run of the mill AOR band, whereas on Raised on Radio they sounded like a million bucks.

That's the best way I can put it.

Well put.

Agreed.

[Don]

Thinned Skinned? not as thin as the lettuce on the top of your dome.
The oppression of being dominated? I'm sure you could tell us all about that Rip, or does Neal let you play the Pitcher every once in awhile?

All in fun, dude, all in fun.

All in fun indeed. You two give eachother a hug and move on

It IS all in fun, it's only the internet after all. Rip is a good sport (I think).

[Carlitto H@kk]

The bottomline is that Schon and Cain needs Perry as a counterweight. Even on Arrival, when they had Augeri (who successfully managed to have his own style going), there were quite a few fillers with the typical cliche filled Cain lyrics. With the departure of Perry, Journey became lightweight in a way they'd never been before. Compare with the real emotion/pain courtesy of Perry on Trial By Fire. So in a way, the last Journey album was Trial By Fire. For it to work, there must be Schon, Cain and a Perry.

Completely disagree. Look, I'm as big a Perry fan as anyone else here,
but Perry went far beyond being a "counterweight" to having WAY too much control,
causing the band to deliver what you would consider the last TWO Journey albums,
ROR & TBF... Both completely terrible albums. ROR may have sounded good when it
came out, but it really hasn't stood the test of time like earlier stuff. And TBF, while
being incredible "production-wise" really lacked any punch or power. There's a reason
the band really doesn't play much from these two albums anymore.

For Journey to keep going, they HAD to get away from Perry. And I know
most will say, "Well, then don't keep calling it Journey!"
Why not? Cain & Schon had just as much to do with the early success
as Perry. All they could do is move forward and try to keep it going.
We all know that there is really no big market anymore for this style of music.
Starting a new band would have been an utter failure, and they would just
have been constantly compared to Journey. So move forward with a sure thing,
try to keep recording and making new music, and literally make a living.

I've had a Love/Hate opinion of the last few albums just like everyone else.
Look at the brightside, at least we're not stuck in limbo like Van Halen fans!
Like it or Hate it, at least Schon & Cain have kept the band alive

[S2M]

The bottomline is that Schon and Cain needs Perry as a counterweight. Even on Arrival, when they had Augeri (who successfully managed to have his own style going), there were quite a few fillers with the typical cliche filled Cain lyrics. With the departure of Perry, Journey became lightweight in a way they'd never been before. Compare with the real emotion/pain courtesy of Perry on Trial By Fire. So in a way, the last Journey album was Trial By Fire. For it to work, there must be Schon, Cain and a Perry.

Completely disagree. Look, I'm as big a Perry fan as anyone else here,
but Perry went far beyond being a "counterweight" to having WAY too much control,
causing the band to deliver what you would consider the last TWO Journey albums,
ROR & TBF... Both completely terrible albums. ROR may have sounded good when it
came out, but it really hasn't stood the test of time like earlier stuff. And TBF, while
being incredible "production-wise" really lacked any punch or power. There's a reason
the band really doesn't play much from these two albums anymore.

For Journey to keep going, they HAD to get away from Perry. And I know
most will say, "Well, then don't keep calling it Journey!"
Why not? Cain & Schon had just as much to do with the early success
as Perry. All they could do is move forward and try to keep it going.
We all know that there is really no big market anymore for this style of music.
Starting a new band would have been an utter failure, and they would just
have been constantly compared to Journey. So move forward with a sure thing,
try to keep recording and making new music, and literally make a living.

I've had a Love/Hate opinion of the last few albums just like everyone else.
Look at the brightside, at least we're not stuck in limbo like Van Halen fans!
Like it or Hate it, at least Schon & Cain have kept the band alive

Yep, on life-support until someone discovers a cure for the disease that is Journey....

[Carlitto H@kk]

Yep, on life-support until someone discovers a cure for the disease that is Journey....

Dude, the cure is well within your reach...
Just walk away and listen to whatever you want.

Just curious...
Seen in here that you are a Gotthard fan.
Can't say I have ever really listened to them so
I really don't have an opinion but I know that they
recently lost their singer to a tragic accident...

Are you gonna be this hard on them too when/if they move forward
with a new singer that may not meet your lofty standards?

[S2M]

Yep, on life-support until someone discovers a cure for the disease that is Journey....

Dude, the cure is well within your reach...
Just walk away and listen to whatever you want.

Just curious...
Seen in here that you are a Gotthard fan.
Can't say I have ever really listened to them so
I really don't have an opinion but I know that they
recently lost their singer to a tragic accident...

Are you gonna be this hard on them too when/if they move forward
with a new singer that may not meet your lofty standards?

I don't have lofty standards. I have reasonable standards. Put out quality shit. TRY. Give it the old college try. You know its funny. It was said JSS wasn't a good fit because he didn't have that legacy sound, but NOW they want to progress away from that and blaze a new trail. They HAD that with Jeff. I would have been on board with that. So now they have a Perry clone - while trying to move away from the legacy....and that, my friend, is a clusterfuck.

As far as Gotthard goes, Steve WAS Gotthard. His voice was most recognizable. As it goes with many groups. I'll listen, but again, don't expect much from them...

[The_Noble_Cause]

So now they have a Perry clone - while trying to move away from the legacy....and that, my friend, is a clusterfuck.

It's inconsistent on the band's part. Musically it sounds alot like Red 13.

[slucero]

]Journey has become a charicature of themselves. They chose to move on after Perry, and are suffering the consequnces. They have the mindset of most dinosaur acts, which is - we are going to do what WE want. We have a large enough fanbase that will buy anything we release(think Kiss, Bon Jovi), even if it isn't up to standards.

The question then becomes what is Journey supposed to do?

Exactly, what is Journey supposed to do?

And whose standards are they supposed to be living up to?
Yours? Mine? Every fan out there? Get real.
The standards they have to live up to are the standards
of the five guys making the music. How are they really suffering?
Record sales is a weak stat to use to determine whether a band is still
successful or relevant; that's just the way the entire music biz is these days.
Are they still touring strong? Yep, even if they have to do double or triple bills.

These guys have been around long enuff that they should be able to do what they want.
Why keep rehashing the same type of vibe over and over again?
I think a lot of Perr-Era-Only fans have forgotten what this band used to be...
They were a guitar-driven, jam band, built around Schon.
If anything this direction could be considered an updated, pre-Escape era Journey.
I personally think Schon has been pretty laid back on the past few albums,
not putting in 100%, and letting Cain have a little more control on direction...
Maybe Schon is hellbent on taking this band back to its roots, but with an updated,
modern vibe that can compete with what else is out there today.

Trying to constantly re-create that Perry-sound or Legacy sound just isn't working.
Its time to move forward. They had a chance to do that back in 2007 w/JSS and, again,
figured trying to capture that Legacy sound was the best bet. Glad Schon is thinking differently these days.
Maybe these guys know they really don't have many years left with this machine;
why not go out on a limb, have some fun, be experimental again...

Agreed... unfortunately if Schon is taking the band "back to its roots"... i.e. that "pre-Perry, guitar-driven, jam band" sound then most likely the musical output will not be very commercially acceptable... and that most likely really doesn't matter at this point in their careers either..

It also may not matter if the current Journey fanbase (including the rapid AP fans) who most likely fell in love with Journey because of their more commercial sound (meaning the songs that made them famous) will accept this vs. the sound they know... My guess is the rabid AP fans will regardless.. The more critical fan may not...


I wasn't hoping or expecting a "Return to Perry".... I was hoping JC would take the same tack he said he did in this interview.. http://www.boomerocity.com/jonathancain.html

“Steve had this whole thing of sort of wanting to sing the ballads. He loved the power ballad and I did, too. He liked the way I played the piano and my feel so it was really easy. He could’ve been a stickler. He could’ve been the other way and not liked anything I played. But, he liked everything I played. And he would sing all the time. I would start playing something and he would be singing. It was truly cool. I had no idea because he could be difficult like everybody can in that lead singer department. But he wasn’t. He and I had a kinship.

“I noticed that Neal was wanting to get more of his ideas seen, too. So I took a bunch of his tapes and went through all of them – sort of played middle man between him and Steve. I said, ‘You know, I think Neal has some great stuff. Let’s really look at it.’ The two of us really – it was almost like he wanted another songwriting partner to look at Neal’s stuff. I helped him and we crafted some great stuff on that Escape album. That was the beginning. It’s kind of cool that I became the glue, you know, for the two of them. We just had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot.”

It's the sum of JC, NS and SP writing together (and their influences) that so many have been trying to hear in the new music, but will never hear again....
In fairness to AP, we also have to remember AP doesn't (nor should he be expected to) have the musical heroes and background SP did.. that love of R&B, Sam Cooke.. that all flavored SP's writing and singing. SP was very much a part of the writing process... AP has not been... again no slag on AP... just the reality of the current situation.

So it appears that instead we are getting a "Neal album"... this description from JC is very telling...

“Well, it’s very guitar driven. This album has very little of me, keyboard wise. Neal wanted to do a heavier rock album. So, this is kind of his baby. I wrote the lyrics on the thing and lots of the melodies that sit above the guitars. So, then I had to find someplace to play in the nooks and crannies.” He says, chuckling.

“It’s a very hard hitting record that has some conscience to it. It’s about lots of things – spirituality, sexuality. There’s a song called Tantra on it about tantric circles. I was fascinated with all of that. It’s definitely a departure from what we’ve done before. It’s more like a concept record. I think Arnel shines. He sounds great. It’s probably one of Neal’s best guitar albums. I think he’s on a mission on this album – to play and he did.”

The truth for Journey is that likely no one would have ever heard of Journey had the Dirty dozen never been written, and reached so many people... so any direction they take will always be compared to the one most remember them for...

They can't simply can't "ESC4P3" it.

[Saint John]

Ok ... I can breathe again. I listened to the other clip of Chain Of Love and it's a fucking great song. I hope there's more songs posted with better quality, because right now they're only 1 for 5.

[S2M]

Ok ... I can breathe again. I listened to the other clip of Chain Of Love and it's a fucking great song. I hope there's more songs posted with better quality, because right now they're only 1 for 5.

I agree...if I had to like ONE song it would the VERY Frontiers sounding Chain of Love....we'll see.

[Saint John]

Ok ... I can breathe again. I listened to the other clip of Chain Of Love and it's a fucking great song. I hope there's more songs posted with better quality, because right now they're only 1 for 5.

I agree...if I had to like ONE song it would the VERY Frontiers sounding Chain of Love....we'll see.

That's the only one I'm really digging so far, man. It's got an "in your face" element to it that I like. We're in ... gulp ... agreement?

[Don]

Throw out the instrumental and five songs left. What's the over/under on how many of those are ballads?

[Carlitto H@kk]

[
I don't have lofty standards. I have reasonable standards. Put out quality shit. TRY. Give it the old college try. You know its funny. It was said JSS wasn't a good fit because he didn't have that legacy sound, but NOW they want to progress away from that and blaze a new trail. They HAD that with Jeff. I would have been on board with that. So now they have a Perry clone - while trying to move away from the legacy....and that, my friend, is a clusterfuck.

I said as much earlier. They fucked up with the whole Soto deal.
Unless I missed it, I don't think we've ever learned the true reason
Jeff was so unceremoniously let go, but my gut tells me it had a lot
to do with Cain and his fear of moving away from the "Legacy" sound (I really hate that fucking term, BTW).

I really think, and it sounds plausible after reading the Shirley interview, that Cain & Schon
butted heads alot with this album because Schon realizes they fucked up and now
he's trying to do what they should've done a few years ago, which is move forward
with the type of sound Schon wants; more guitar-driven. They really don't have a choice
but to do it with Arnel because yet ANOTHER singer change would be the biggest clusterfuck
of them all.

So I am giving them the benefit of the doubt until I actually hear the finished, polished product
before I crucify this new material. I'm a fan of Journey, all versions, and I'm just grateful
that they are still out there for me to enjoy instead of being stuck just listening to albums that are 20 years old.

[S2M]

Throw out the instrumental and five songs left. What's the over/under on how many of those are ballads?

2

[Jana]

Ok ... I can breathe again. I listened to the other clip of Chain Of Love and it's a fucking great song. I hope there's more songs posted with better quality, because right now they're only 1 for 5.

I agree...if I had to like ONE song it would the VERY Frontiers sounding Chain of Love....we'll see.

That's the only one I'm really digging so far, man. It's got an "in your face" element to it that I like. We're in ... gulp ... agreement?

Chain of Love is fantastic, as is Resonate. They both could be hits. Another clip of Resonate. I don't know if the sound is any better. By the same person who did the other Chain of Love I posted.

Resonate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qUWEiBPy-U

[RedWingFan]

Most of us here are not surprised at the critiques, as they generally come from the same individuals. These individuals' opinions are not representative of the fanbase as a whole and the concert attendance proves that.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that most of the audience didn't even know Neil's band even had a new record coming out. The vast majority were there to hear the dirty dozen. So the concert attendance doesn't prove jack squat.

If you're looking for a far more accurate opinion measurement, we'll have to look at the album sales.

I'm guessing you're not going to like the verdict.

[S2M]

I've been thinking for a lone word that would describe why I don't care for 4 out of the 5 songs....and I came up with: plodding. The songs literally plod along with no discernable direction, or purpose....it is more than just a ambient, full-sounding, sonic realization. Plodding and boring. More plodding though. Listless maybe...no energy other than Deen pounding skins, and Neal wanking off on his axe....I'm being serious, not trying to be funny.

[Don]

Throw out the instrumental and five songs left. What's the over/under on how many of those are ballads?

2

That would be the two that Arnel contributed on; She’s A Mystery and To Whom It May Concern.

[Don]

I've been thinking for a lone word that would describe why I don't care for 4 out of the 5 songs....and I came up with: plodding. The songs literally plod along with no discernable direction, or purpose....it is more than just a ambient, full-sounding, sonic realization. Plodding and boring. More plodding though. Listless maybe...no energy other than Deen pounding skins, and Neal wanking off on his axe....I'm being serious, not trying to be funny.

Plodding was a term I used earlier. A reason why bands should have videos on MTV to promote upcoming releases as Youtube just doesn't get the sound across.

[StevePerryHair]

I've been thinking for a lone word that would describe why I don't care for 4 out of the 5 songs....and I came up with: plodding. The songs literally plod along with no discernable direction, or purpose....it is more than just a ambient, full-sounding, sonic realization. Plodding and boring. More plodding though. Listless maybe...no energy other than Deen pounding skins, and Neal wanking off on his axe....I'm being serious, not trying to be funny.

I can't believe I'm saying this....but I know what you mean And maybe live, it's different. And on the cd more so. Which is why I won't be too critical of YouTube clips. I just wish his face had more emotion? There is something lacking in what I'm seeing and hearing...but I don't know what it is, but maybe it's like what youre saying. It's like the lack of "hooks" thing maybe.

[S2M]

I've been thinking for a lone word that would describe why I don't care for 4 out of the 5 songs....and I came up with: plodding. The songs literally plod along with no discernable direction, or purpose....it is more than just a ambient, full-sounding, sonic realization. Plodding and boring. More plodding though. Listless maybe...no energy other than Deen pounding skins, and Neal wanking off on his axe....I'm being serious, not trying to be funny.

Plodding was a term I used earlier. A reason why bands should have videos on MTV to promote upcoming releases as Youtube just doesn't get the sound across.

Hmm...it wasn't a youtube thing I was refering to...the songs themselves are plodding. Listless. Besides being heavier/rockier - they're boring.

[Don]

All these songs were a bit on the long side. Neal was true to his word about this album not being radio friendly. Glad to see the band breaking out of the box and trying not to simply score more songs on A/C Radio.

[RedWingFan]

Hmm...it wasn't a youtube thing I was refering to...the songs themselves are plodding. Listless. Besides being heavier/rockier - they're boring.

Yeah, I don't really lay any fault here at Arnel or Cain's feet. Remember it's Niel's band. What I'm hearing here isn't a lack of vocal ability or anyone's playing, it's the way the songs were structured. I'm sure it's great if you're a big Neel fan. Not so much for Journey fans.

[slucero]

Hmm...it wasn't a youtube thing I was refering to...the songs themselves are plodding. Listless. Besides being heavier/rockier - they're boring.

Yeah, I don't really lay any fault here at Arnel or Cain's feet. Remember it's Niel's band. What I'm hearing here isn't a lack of vocal ability or anyone's playing, it's the way the songs were structured. I'm sure it's great if you're a big Neel fan. Not so much for Journey fans.

[RedWingFan]

All these songs were a bit on the long side. Neal was true to his word about this album not being radio friendly. Glad to see the band breaking out of the box and trying not to simply score more songs on A/C Radio.

True. But it is possible to go heavier and darker than you were previously and at the same time have great hooks in a good song.

First example of what I'm talking about that came to me.

Great song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUTDyKofPCA

[Rip Rokken]

Thinned Skinned? not as thin as the lettuce on the top of your dome.
The oppression of being dominated? I'm sure you could tell us all about that Rip, or does Neal let you play the Pitcher every once in awhile?

All in fun, dude, all in fun.

Of course, and taken as such. I'm now on my quest for premium Filipino food in hopes of making my transformation complete.

[Don]

Thinned Skinned? not as thin as the lettuce on the top of your dome.
The oppression of being dominated? I'm sure you could tell us all about that Rip, or does Neal let you play the Pitcher every once in awhile?

All in fun, dude, all in fun.

Of course, and taken as such. I'm now on my quest for premium Filipino food in hopes of making my transformation complete.

Just stay away from the Asocena. I've had it and it's not all that great.

If you have a sweet tooth, Goldilocks or Red Ribbon should do the trick.I'm sure they have franchises in Vegas.

[Onestepper]

The show was great. Awesome seats that had an intimate feel to it, and a great time all in all. As to the new material, with a single exception (Chain) my wife and I agreed that there was nothing memorable. They more felt like they were actually experimenting with them as they went along, and that several of them just dragged. But we also realized that it was the first time hearing it and we are looking forward to hearing the studio version.

Still, best birthday gift ever. Can't wait to see them again on the tour.

[Don]

Does anyone think they'll detune this tour, especially with this type of material? I can't imagine how it's going to sound.