The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

[7 Wishes]

Franklin Raines once told a Washington Post reporter that he got a “couple of calls” from “someone in the Obama campaign.” This is the entire basis of the charge by the McCain campaign that he’s an “advisor,” a charge that the Washington Post characterized as “clearly exaggerating wildly.” And the second man, Tim Howard, had no contact with the Obama campaign whatsoever, and has certainly never been a Chief Economic adviser. Jim Johnson was tapped to lead the Vice-Presidential search by Obama, but he resigned that position very early in the process and never advised on any economics matters.

John McCain has skipped more votes than any other Senator this year, and hasn’t voted at all since March. You cannot vote "present" in the United States Senate, let alone more than half the time.

This real estate deal that the Republicans try to smear is so simple, perhaps that's why they can't understand it. Barack Obama bought a house. Tony Rezko, in a separate purchase, bought the neighboring lot. The end. Before the purchase, Obama asked Rezko, a local real estate developer, and for some advice on the purchase. While there, Rezko noticed the adjacent lot and decided to buy it. Neither got a break on the price, as confirmed by the sellers. The sellers requested to close on the same day to minimize their hassle.

Barack Obama lived in the same area of Chicago as Ayers, and Ayers has been a politically active member of that community for years. Considering that, it’s actually remarkable how little the two have to do with each other. Early in Barack Obama’s career, he attended one reception in his honor at Ayers’s house. They also were separately asked by a charitable organization to serve on that organization’s board. And that’s it. There’s no friendship between the two, no relationship, no history of working together.

[treetopovskaya]

You're a cracker.

i was thinking... what... how does tnc know or have any idea my skin color? oh... my av... DUH!!

just so you know... my daddy was native american. }:C)

i got my mom's pale skin but my dad's features.

[Lula]

There are just too many of these relationships with questionable characters for me. If not Ayers, then Wright, and that other crazy preacher. Then there's Obama's wife, who said that she wasn't proud to be an American until her husband was running for president... I don't question the man's intelligence. I do, however question his alliances, his judgment and his patriotism.

really? michelle obama's comment was taken so far out of context, even laura bush said that. you actually question his patriotism? why?

i just don't see things the same way. the obamas are the epitome of this country and the opportunities afforded us. they each worked hard to get where they are and are so much more a realistic representation of the united states in my eyes.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Here's TNCs' new hero....

Claiming Ayers as "my hero" is as devoid of gray shades of reality as saying Obama is "palling around with terrorists."
To be expected I suppose.
I'm not sticking up for Ayers, I'm standing up for reality.

[FishinMagician]

as of late this place looks more like a right wing whacko board rather than a journey board. i'm concerned the advertisers on mr might not like it and that could hurt andrew .

i'm all for an obama administration and keeping the political funnies to one thread.

guns, beer, and jesus!

[The_Noble_Cause]

Ayers babysitting with the baby Barry.....

The University of Chicago Chronicle

Nov. 6, 1997
Vol. 17, No. 4

current issue
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Close-up on juvenile justice

Author, former offender among speakers

By Jennifer Vanasco
News Office

Children who kill are called "super predators," "people with no conscience," "feral pre-social beings" -- and "adults."

William Ayers, author of A Kind and Just Parent: The Children of Juvenile Court (Beacon Press, 1997), says "We should call a child a child. A 13-year-old who picks up a gun isn't suddenly an adult. We have to ask other questions: How did he get the gun? Where did it come from?"

Ayers, who spent a year observing the Cook County Temporary Juvenile Detention Center in Chicago, is one of four panelists who will speak on juvenile justice at 6 p.m. Thursday, Nov. 20, in the C-Shop. The panel, which marks the 100th anniversary of the juvenile justice system in the United States, is part of the Community Service Center's monthly discussion series on issues affecting the city of Chicago. The event is free and open to the public.

Ayers will be joined by Sen. Barack Obama, Senior Lecturer in the Law School, who is working to combat legislation that would put more juvenile offenders into the adult system; Randolph Stone, Director of the Mandel Legal Aid Clinic; Alex Correa, a reformed juvenile offender who spent seven years in Cook County Temporary Detention Center; Frank Tobin, a former priest and teacher at the Detention Center who helped Correa; and Willy Baldwin, who grew up in public housing and is currently a teacher at the Detention Center.

The juvenile justice system was founded by Chicago reformer Jane Addams, who advocated the establishment of a separate court system for children which would act like a "kind and just parent" for children in crisis.

One hundred years later, the system is "overcrowded, under-funded, over-centralized and racist," Ayers said.

Michelle Obama, Associate Dean of Student Services and Director of the University Community Service Center, hopes bringing issues like this to campus will open a dialogue between members of the University community and the broader community.

"Students and faculty explore these issues in the classroom, but it is an internal conversation," Obama said. "We know that issues like juvenile justice impact the city of Chicago, this nation and -- directly or indirectly -- this campus. This panel gives students a chance to hear about the juvenile justice system not only on a theoretical level, but from the people who have experienced it."

There's nothing remotely incriminating here.
As if, because of his past, Ayers, along with anyone who so much as comes into contact with him, is expected to lead the life of a leper.
You are severely overestimating the stupidity of your fellow countrymen.

[7 Wishes]

Yep. Once again, Lie Finder, you're making something out of nothing.

'Drew is going to lose his advertisers if this keeps happening. I'm beginning to think it's not in his best interests for us to engage in ANY kind of political discussions. I have a good friend who's a bassist and composer who HATES melodic rock music, and even HE has heard about the right-wing insanity on this site. It's becoming a commonly known fact.

[Barb]

Yep. Once again, Lie Finder, you're making something out of nothing.

'Drew is going to lose his advertisers if this keeps happening. I'm beginning to think it's not in his best interests for us to engage in ANY kind of political discussions. I have a good friend who's a bassist and composer who HATES melodic rock music, and even HE has heard about the right-wing insanity on this site. It's becoming a commonly known fact.

How unforunate that leftys are so inolerant of other people's views. It speaks volumes that you don't want or think our voices should be heard here or anywhere.

[The_Noble_Cause]

BTW, TNC and 7, I NEVER said one word about that University of Chicago piece, I just posted it to show that yes, Obama and Ayers and Michelle have in fact worked together and it was long after Baby Barry reached puberty.

Nobody debated that.
Lula and others did contest Obama's relationship with Ayers when he was a terrorist .
Sitting on a board with other academic mucketymucks debating the juvenile justice system is indicative of nothing.
You are a spent whore.

[7 Wishes]

How unforunate that leftys are so inolerant of other people's views. It speaks volumes that you don't want or think our voices should be heard here or anywhere.

Views? No, we're not talking about "views" here. We're talking about truth. There have been FAR more false allegations and outright lies brought up against Obama on this thread than against McCain. The outright prejudice of some posters here could not be any more apparent.

Barb, while I and several others have commended McCain for his outstanding public service, strong record, and standing up for his beliefs, I haven't seen ONE OF YOU do ANYTHING CLOSE to that with Obama, despite his 25 years of dedication to making America a better nation and helping the less fortunate.

Right. YOU are the bastion of rational perspectives. You have been REPEATEDLY proven wrong on this and MANY other topics, yet not only do you refuse to yield, you actually continue to level what you KNOW are FALSE allegations. It's really unbelievable. People like you, who get your "news" from Fox, right-wing talk-show nutjobs, and factually inaccurate hate-filled blogs, call into question the ability of ANY non- neo-conservative to determine the truth and make informed judgments. It's laughable and reprehensible.

[The_Noble_Cause]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Ned5TQoW4

I thought CNN was part of the liberal media.
Can't have it both ways now...

[Rick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Ned5TQoW4

Excellent post. That means it's going to be a lot tougher for the Republicans to cheat on this election.

[The_Noble_Cause]

a 7 minute video and you post about it 2 minutes after I put it up. Did you even watch it?

It was played on the radio here by my local right wing blowhard 2 months ago.
I'm not denying any of it.

[SteveForever]

[7 Wishes]

Once again, Lie Finder, you are acting as your own worse enemy. You haven't brought ANYTHING truthful to the table. Nothing.

So, thank you for proving my point. You and Barb are your own worse enemies.

[conversationpc]

He's not reformed. He's not repentent. End of argument.

And you call yourself a Christian?

You are not qualified to decide who is and who isn't a Christian. Your opinion on the subject is meaningless and no one cares what you think about it. That's beside the fact that nowhere in the Bible does it ever say you must forgive someone who hasn't done something against you. Ayers is a terrorist. He has never repented of it and, in fact, brags that he should have done more. I'd like to know, O Exalted One, how you can theologically explain how I am obligated to forgive him.

I’m just recycling a right wing trope.
You said it yourself that Ayers is “a snooty professor.”
Turn on Beck or Limbaugh or any garden variety McCarthyite swine and they are tearing down the institutions of higher learning on a daily basis.

Nowhere have Limbaugh or Beck ever slammed education as a whole but rather institutions or individual professors who have a political agenda.

[conversationpc]

Bill Ayers on NY Times Article:

September 15, 2001

To The Editors—

In July of this year Dinitia Smith asked my publisher if she might interview me for the New York Times on my forthcoming book, Fugitive Days. From the start she questioned me sharply about bombings, and each time I referred her to my memoir where I discussed the culture of violence we all live with in America, my growing anger in the 1960’s about the structures of racism and the escalating war, and the complex, sometimes extreme and despairing choices I made in those terrible times.

Smith’s angle is captured in the Times headline: “No regrets for a love of explosives” (September 11, 2001). She and I spoke a lot about regrets, about loss, about attempts to account for one’s life. I never said I had any love for explosives, and anyone who knows me found that headline sensationalistic nonsense. I said I had a thousand regrets, but no regrets for opposing the war with every ounce of my strength. I told her that in light of the indiscriminate murder of millions of Vietnamese, we showed remarkable restraint, and that while we tried to sound a piercing alarm in those years, in fact we didn’t do enough to stop the war.

Some readers apparently responded to her piece, published on the same day as the vicious terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, by associating my book with them. This is absurd. My memoir is from start to finish a condemnation of terrorism, of the indiscriminate murder of human beings, whether driven by fanaticism or official policy. It begins literally in the shadow of Hiroshima and comes of age in the killing fields of Southeast Asia. My book criticizes the American obsession with a clean and distanced violence, and the culture of thoughtlessness and carelessness that results from it. We are now witnessing crimes against humanity in our own land on an unthinkable scale, and I fear that we might soon see innocent people in other parts of the world as well as in the U.S. dying and suffering in response.

All that we witnessed September 11—the awful carnage and pain, the heroism of ordinary people—may drive us mad with grief and anger, or it may open us to hope in new ways. Perhaps precisely because we have suffered we can embrace the suffering of others and gather the necessary wisdom to resist the impulse to lash out randomly. The lessons of the anti-war movements of the 1960s and 70s may be more urgent now than ever.

Bill Ayers, Chicago IL

http://billayers.wordpress.com/2008/04/ ... 9-15-2001/

Is it just my imagination or am I correct in saying that there's no remorse shown for what he did in this letter at all?

[conversationpc]

Yep. Once again, Lie Finder, you're making something out of nothing.

'Drew is going to lose his advertisers if this keeps happening. I'm beginning to think it's not in his best interests for us to engage in ANY kind of political discussions. I have a good friend who's a bassist and composer who HATES melodic rock music, and even HE has heard about the right-wing insanity on this site. It's becoming a commonly known fact.

Until you start condemning people like TNC for supporting an unrepentant terrorist like Bill Ayers and for saying things like how he was relieved at the death of Tim Russert, I might be able to take something like this seriously. Until then, you're simply playng the partisan game.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Until you start condemning people like TNC for supporting an unrepentant terrorist like Bill Ayers...

I'm not supporting an "unrepetent terrorist." I am looking at people as human beings, not as uni-dimensional cartoon stereotypes.
The man has devoted most of his life to education, has been honored for such, and Obama's associations with the man coincide with that chapter of his life.
Saying Obama hangs with terrorists is not only playing fast and loose with timelines, it is an insult to every voter's intelligence.

...and for saying things like how he was relieved at the death of Tim Russert, I might be able to take something like this seriously.

I acknowledged it was a tragedy, but the guy was bad news. Sue me.
The Right, above all others, endlessly bitch about the media selecting the candidates - who do you think was responsible for that?
God bless Gwen Ifill for being a model in moderating the other night.
Not a single 'gotcha' question or "Go Bills!" self-indulgent curveball.

Nowhere have Limbaugh or Beck ever slammed education as a whole but rather institutions or individual professors who have a political agenda.

Like the TV anchors who aren't a branch of any sort of partisan media (liberal or otherwise), no distinction is ever made to professors who are out there doing their jobs. University professors are sweepingly indicted as a whole. The GOP has the slur "elitist" ready at the hip for any candidate who sounds educated (Gore, Kerry, Obama). Your party panders to the lower instincts of man and has contempt for education.

[conversationpc]

I personally think Michael Savage is mentally ill. He is the angriest person on radio. He always has someone to hate.

I listen to Savage only occasonally. He is the most arrogant person on radio, in my opinion, even more than O'Reilly. Everything is always his idea and everyone else must have stolen it from him if they are talking about it. He constantly mentions how he has best-selling books and all these college degrees. It's great to be successful and educated but it just seems like he tries too hard to talk about and brag about it.

Glenn is just Glenn. His conservative ideology is WHO HE IS on and off the air and he is as real as it gets. He irritates me sometimes and I feel like his message is often times too "the sky is falling! the sky is falling!" but I still love him. He's like a friend that I know I can trust to tell me what he really believes even if I disagree. He is so successful because he is real. He's been wrong on a lot of things, but he's also been right.

He should be getting credit for being right on this financial crisis. He's been talking about this happening for almost two years now when no one else was talking about it. However, you're right. I'd like to hear him concentrate more on current events or comedy bits and less on politics.

In truth, I actually miss the Glenn who talks about social issues and injects humor into his daily show. Since his TV show started, he's become far too political and regrettably, politically correct

I don't think so at all. I think it has everything to do with the fact that you mentioned earlier, in that he talks more about politics and less about current events or social issues.

Rush Limbaugh is a great Republican cheerleader if that is what you're into. I'm not. Sometimes I like to to listen to him after specific events, i.e. debates, etc. but for the most part, his show is very dry and he doesn't do anything for me.

I've never managed to make it through an entire Limbaugh show. I've tried listening to it like three or four times and just haven't liked it at all. I'm not sure why the libs here keep brining him up since the only one that seems to like his show is RedWingFan.

Sean Hannity is about as annoying as a human being can be. I think he is probably a good person, but he says the same damn thing day after day, night after night. The reason Alan Colmes even has a job is because he makes Hannity look smart.

The onlly thing Hannity is good for is for bringing out all those quotes and videos of libs doing or saying dumb things. He seems to get ahold of those before anyone else. Other than that, he is more repetitive than a severely scratched vinyl record.

I don't think much of Bill O'Reilly as a person. I think he is fake, arrogant and only cares about what will get him the highest ratings. However, I do watch his show every single day because he covers interesting topics. I have all of his books and think he is a great writer. His personality just gets on my nerves.

He's kinda like Savage in that he's always playing up how successful his books and his show are. It gets on my nerves. I do like the fact, though, that he holds politicians, even those on the right, accountable for their actions.

[Barb]

Bill Ayers on NY Times Article:

September 15, 2001

To The Editors—

In July of this year Dinitia Smith asked my publisher if she might interview me for the New York Times on my forthcoming book, Fugitive Days. From the start she questioned me sharply about bombings, and each time I referred her to my memoir where I discussed the culture of violence we all live with in America, my growing anger in the 1960’s about the structures of racism and the escalating war, and the complex, sometimes extreme and despairing choices I made in those terrible times.

Smith’s angle is captured in the Times headline: “No regrets for a love of explosives” (September 11, 2001). She and I spoke a lot about regrets, about loss, about attempts to account for one’s life. I never said I had any love for explosives, and anyone who knows me found that headline sensationalistic nonsense. I said I had a thousand regrets, but no regrets for opposing the war with every ounce of my strength. I told her that in light of the indiscriminate murder of millions of Vietnamese, we showed remarkable restraint, and that while we tried to sound a piercing alarm in those years, in fact we didn’t do enough to stop the war.

Some readers apparently responded to her piece, published on the same day as the vicious terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, by associating my book with them. This is absurd. My memoir is from start to finish a condemnation of terrorism, of the indiscriminate murder of human beings, whether driven by fanaticism or official policy. It begins literally in the shadow of Hiroshima and comes of age in the killing fields of Southeast Asia. My book criticizes the American obsession with a clean and distanced violence, and the culture of thoughtlessness and carelessness that results from it. We are now witnessing crimes against humanity in our own land on an unthinkable scale, and I fear that we might soon see innocent people in other parts of the world as well as in the U.S. dying and suffering in response.

All that we witnessed September 11—the awful carnage and pain, the heroism of ordinary people—may drive us mad with grief and anger, or it may open us to hope in new ways. Perhaps precisely because we have suffered we can embrace the suffering of others and gather the necessary wisdom to resist the impulse to lash out randomly. The lessons of the anti-war movements of the 1960s and 70s may be more urgent now than ever.

Bill Ayers, Chicago IL

http://billayers.wordpress.com/2008/04/ ... 9-15-2001/

Is it just my imagination or am I correct in saying that there's no remorse shown for what he did in this letter at all?

I'm guessing the only reason he even said anything at all is because of what happened on 9/11 and he looked like a complete asshole.

Even if he is/was remorseful, it's not enouogh. He hasn't paid for his crimes and justice has not been served.

[conversationpc]

Saying Obama hangs with terrorists is not only playing fast and loose with timelines, it is an insult to every voter's intelligence.

I haven't brought up Obama's name in association with Ayers.

Like the TV anchors who maybe aren't a branch of the liberal media, no distinction is ever made to professors who are doing their jobs.
University professors are sweepingly indicted as a whole.
Stop lying.

The vast majority of professors are liberal. No doubt about it. However, even most of them are decent human beings and very good at their job. The small minority of liberal professors who have an agenda other than teaching are the ones I have a problem with. Ayers is one of the latter and it doesn't help your cause any to lie about him.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Even if he is/was remorseful, it's not enouogh. He hasn't paid for his crimes and justice has not been served.

Why don't you go to Chicago and administer some prairie justice, Barb?
While you're down there you can keep an eye out for any sturdy oak lynching trees.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Saying Obama hangs with terrorists is not only playing fast and loose with timelines, it is an insult to every voter's intelligence.

I haven't brought up Obama's name in association with Ayers.

Like the TV anchors who maybe aren't a branch of the liberal media, no distinction is ever made to professors who are doing their jobs.
University professors are sweepingly indicted as a whole.
Stop lying.

The vast majority of professors are liberal. No doubt about it. However, even most of them are decent human beings and very good at their job. The small minority of liberal professors who have an agenda other than teaching are the ones I have a problem with. Ayers is one of the latter and it doesn't help your cause any to lie about him.

You don't know what he teaches, and it's immaterial to the initial point that Obama was somehow cavorting with an active terrorist.

[conversationpc]

Even if he is/was remorseful, it's not enouogh. He hasn't paid for his crimes and justice has not been served.

Why don't you go to Chicago and administer some prairie justice, Barb?
While you're down there you can keep an eye out for any sturdy oak lynching trees.

You really love the race card, don't you? You're the biggest race pimp and bigot on the board.

[conversationpc]

You don't know what he teaches, and it's immaterial to the initial point that Obama was somehow cavorting with an active terrorist.

I don't give a flying monkey crap what he teaches. That has nothing to do with anything. I also don't care about Obama as I was not talking about him. I didn't bring up Obama's name or supposed association with him and don't care to discuss it.

[7 Wishes]

Dave - I don't defend Ayers whatsoever. I think he's a low-life.

My only issue - and it's valid - is the ridiculous notion that Obama "pals around" with him, let alone any terrorists. It's just a blatant, ridiculous lie.

But the Big Right Machine is getting desperate.

As if Palin needed any help looking and sounding even more stupid...her comments will cost the GOP in this election. Wow, is she awful. McCain would have won with Whitman, Pawlenty, or even Romney.

Christine Whitman has said more intelligent things after a few beers and a joint than Palin has her entire career. What a mistake!

[7 Wishes]

You really love the race card, don't you? You're the biggest race pimp and bigot on the board.

Dave, you're a very smart guy. Surely you realize the context under which he made that statement.

[conversationpc]

You really love the race card, don't you? You're the biggest race pimp and bigot on the board.

Dave, you're a very smart guy. Surely you realize the context under which he made that statement.

He's pulled the race card on Barb on more than one occasion previous to this.

[conversationpc]

My only issue - and it's valid - is the ridiculous notion that Obama "pals around" with him, let alone any terrorists. It's just a blatant, ridiculous lie.

I've never been under the impression that Obama pals around with him.

As if Palin needed any help looking and sounding even more stupid...her comments will cost the GOP in this election. Wow, is she awful. McCain would have won with Whitman, Pawlenty, or even Romney.

McCain would be even lower in the polls than he is now if he had selected anyone one of those other three.