BackTalk Creator Weighs In:

[journeyinto2001]

Everything you said is true but you should have pointed out that this site is just as bad, actually worse.

Talk about negativity, meanness and nastiness, etc. This site takes the cake over BT BY FAR. The band should and probably will eventually nix the BT forums but unfortunately, it cannot kill this beast.....

Go ahead and thrash away everyone.......

[strangegrey]

Trust me, if this ever got onto back talk, I'm sure I'd have upside down crosses burned in my front lawn and bricks wrapped with tailed-jackets thrown through my front window!

Funny...I thought this same exact thing, strangegrey. This posting wouldn't last on Jackass Talk for more than 30 seconds before CJ or one of her henchmen blew it up and then sent you a nasty email for daring to post against "the establishment". Honestly, I think anyone who posted over at BT for any length of time would know there is a whole lot of truth to everything you said! It's just so refreshing to hear someone else say it! I still hope that the powers that be blow that place up and fire all the mods for complete incompetence and start all over again! If that's not possible, simply close the forums down for good, as the way they are presently run are a complete embarrassment to most Journey fans!!!!

John from Boston

I actually had a thought, once the reprint of my post on the NB made it's way here...that some Drive-by-Back-Talker will actually repost it directly to BT as soon as the 'gates' open at 1:30PM today. Only 20 more minutes to go...

Granted, I agree...CJ or a member of the BT Stasi would certainly hose the thread asap. But I don't think I would get any email....they've heard this complaint a million times before from others. Hearing it from me isn't going to change the way they think or bother them. They've consistent response to such criticism from concerned (and supsequently banned ) back talkers is that freedom of speech doesn't exist on back talk as it is a privately run site. I agree with them there, in principle. No freedom of speech is extended to people in a private forum that is privately funded. The problem is that if you curb speech in such a way that it creates a very nasty, bickering society...don't complain when you have to spend your life enforcing the rules you've established. To date, they have not complained...at least not that I have heard.

I suspect that a certain number of moderators there *love* the user-whacking power that they wield and don't mind one iotta over-moderating the place...because it gives their lives a sense of importance. Which goes back to my original thought that average Back Talk mob poster has a very unfulfilled home life....and the moderators of an online society are in fact, extensions of the society itself. Most of the moderators there came out of Back Talk itself...so they really had to be in-line with the party-talk before signing up to enforce it.

[jrnychick]

I never knew that some of the women were emailing asking for band members' addresses, etc. It would never dawn on me to do that. I can understand why you got out of that job! In the last week, I have been saddened to see fans turn on each other the way they have.

Well, that wasn't the reason...and some might even tell you that I was pushed out...I remember returning to the site one day...and noticed that my name was no longer on that 'credits' page...and said to myself "I guess the door finally hit me in the ass" Castles Burning was shut down, which was my baby. That board was ALL about guitar playing...and there was VERY little fighting there. Most of the fighting was on the Main board...so I never understood why (CB got the axe)....Ironic that it's back...regardless, I just stopped putting any effort into moderation, stopped visiting the site...and I was eventually removed from the works.

The requests weren't day in and day out. But they were enough to paint the picture I alluded to above.

That's interesting! I guess you got the message, huh? I still can't get over that people actually emailed requesting personal contact information of the band members. That just floors me.

[amaron]

Everything you said is true but you should have pointed out that this site is just as bad, actually worse.

Talk about negativity, meanness and nastiness, etc. This site takes the cake over BT BY FAR. The band should and probably will eventually nix the BT forums but unfortunately, it cannot kill this beast.....

Go ahead and thrash away everyone.......

I don't disagree with you... but at least you get the chance to voice your opinion here. Yeah, you might get trashed... but that's to be expected on a forum. I'd prefer this over the spic-and-spanned BT.

[Skylorde]

Nice to see Frank being himself again!

I felt it necessary to clarify a few things and offer my viewpoint as well.

Regarding BackTalk, this is the condensed version:

BackTalk started as "The Journey Forum" about 12 years ago. It was not a part of the official site, it was a private forum hosted by myself. Frank was a frequent shit-stirrer back then (some things never change haha) who participated in our IRC chats. That's how I met Frank. Although we are friends to this very day and chat frequently in text and occasionally on the phone, we've never met. Probably a good thing, I hear he's an ugly fuck.

When I started the forum, it quickly became very popular and with it's popularity came many of the problems that plague forum moderators today. The Journey Forum was shut down on several occasions. Not as a temporary thing to let cooler heads prevail or to teach anyone a lesson, I shut it down with the full intention of never turning it back on again because I was tired of playing parent to a bunch of adult children. Let me clarify something. The majority of people using The Journey Forum back then were polite and respectable participants. There was a minority of people who at times became too problematic to deal with. I would evenutally get fed up and turn it off. After a few weeks and enough requests, I'd turning it back on.

When I assumed the helm of the official site, it took some coaxing to get the band to green light a forum but they finally did and The Journey Forum morphed itself into Back Talk and the rest is history.

The point of this is, the problems that plague Back Talk are nothing new. They've been going on for as long as that forum has been in existence.

My take on the psycho fan:

Most Journey fans are good natured ordinary people, fans of the music. HOWEVER. There's a small percentage out there that would make most Psychology PHD's scratch their heads. To some people, their entire essence, their entire purpose in life and for getting up in the morning, is Journey, or a particular band member. Other bands have their share of these fans as well. Looking from the inside circle out gives you completely different perspective, one I wasn't anticipating. I just assumed most people were like me....until I became the buffer between the band and it's internet fan base. That experience definately soured me a bit.

Rindell, who used to work for Journey, used to say

"What is the word FAN short for? F-A-N-A-T-I-C"

Cheers!

[strangegrey]

Although we are friends to this very day and chat frequently in text and occasionally on the phone, we've never met. Probably a good thing, I hear he's an ugly fuck.

Oh that's going to change soon....I plan to descend on casa de Skylord soon...and we will travel to the Tiujuana Donkey show so I can introduce him to Mrs. Skylord

[Monker]

Tremendous.

If THIS piece isn't the ultimate validation hat BT and a big majority of its' users completely suck, then I don't know what is. This also proves that Andrew is a complete and unadultered fucking hero. Dude rules. (fuck you, Monker).

Thing is, I think you would have been kicked off of Frank's/Sky's forum MUCH more often then Meanie ever was.

SOME moderation MUST exist, otherwise all you have are people have the "fuck you" attitude that you display above.

[Skylorde]

I still can't get over that people actually emailed requesting personal contact information of the band members. That just floors me.

You have absolutely NO idea the length some people are willing to go to just to meet the band or get close to them. Keep in mind Journey really isn't on the music radar right now. I can't imagine what it was like when they were and everyone wanted a piece of Perry.

Not trying to sound like a woman hater, but most of the fans that fit into that category were women. Not all, but most. I've personally seen very respectable looking women, perfectly willing to do things they would never, ever consider under any other circumstance, just to get a meet and greet pass.

[Monker]

I don't know what the forum was like before I joined in early 2001 but it was fun for awhile. Then the decision was maded to close the Water Cooler section, which was really the only forum there where you could have real personal interaction with the other fans. That was a huge mistake, in my opinion. Nowadays, I rarely ever even ready anything over there unless someone mentions something here about it first and it's usually not for anything good unfortunately.

I don't blame the band members for not posting there, but it's also partly their and the management's making anyway, since it's regulated like a European-style socialist government. Hell, I'm surprised they don't charge a per-post fee or something like that

The WC section should have NEVER existed...It gave MORE of a voice for the very people Frank talked about. If you want personal conversation, use Email. Why should Journey have to pay for you to chat with somebody about non-Journey 'stuff'?

I actually LIKE the "new" BACKTALK sub-forum...it seems to be run more like Sky's old forum. Haven't seen the limits on how much they are going to allow there tho.

[Tom Jrnyfn]

[quote When you treat people like children, they act like children[/quote]



That is the post of the millennium..

IMO, no band should have a official message board...Let fan sites do it.

Also, for a band that has the history Journey does, the website is embarrassing..They need to re-vamp the whole thing..

[strangegrey]

SOME moderation MUST exist, otherwise all you have are people have the "fuck you" attitude that you display above.

Agreed...and was not advocating 'no moderation' although there are some boards out there that can run without moderation....

My opinion is that over moderation to the extent that has been exercised at BT has contributed to creating the very atmosphere you have over there.

In my experience, that type of moderation kills a board. A certain amp builders board that I frequented last year suffered greatly as a result of severe moderation (after years of little moderation).

Back Talk..? I still to this day dont understand why it didn't fall apart....but like I said before, it could make a very tasty subject for a doctoral thesis in 'online society'

[strangegrey]

BTW, Monker...Long time no speak!!! How are you!?

[Monker]

A moderator's role in a healthy forum is to step in when a poster or a fight goes way beyond that of civil or socially acceptable. There are tools to allow language to be curbed, but sometimes people just get downright nasty. The moderator steps in and takes control, resets the norm and steps out...and gets out of the way of people interacting.

EXACTLY...and I agree with that. What I have been saying about THIS forum is the exact opposite as you said about BT...Andrew has not used those tools to keep discussion civil. It is allowed to get out of control too often and a sort of anarchy results where certain posters are allowed so much freedom that they play "whack-a-mole" to any sort of coversation they do not like. THAT does not create any better of a forum then BT.

[Barb]

Nice to see Frank being himself again!

I felt it necessary to clarify a few things and offer my viewpoint as well.

Regarding BackTalk, this is the condensed version:

BackTalk started as "The Journey Forum" about 12 years ago. It was not a part of the official site, it was a private forum hosted by myself. Frank was a frequent shit-stirrer back then (some things never change haha) who participated in our IRC chats. That's how I met Frank. Although we are friends to this very day and chat frequently in text and occasionally on the phone, we've never met. Probably a good thing, I hear he's an ugly fuck.

When I started the forum, it quickly became very popular and with it's popularity came many of the problems that plague forum moderators today. The Journey Forum was shut down on several occasions. Not as a temporary thing to let cooler heads prevail or to teach anyone a lesson, I shut it down with the full intention of never turning it back on again because I was tired of playing parent to a bunch of adult children. Let me clarify something. The majority of people using The Journey Forum back then were polite and respectable participants. There was a minority of people who at times became too problematic to deal with. I would evenutally get fed up and turn it off. After a few weeks and enough requests, I'd turning it back on.

When I assumed the helm of the official site, it took some coaxing to get the band to green light a forum but they finally did and The Journey Forum morphed itself into Back Talk and the rest is history.

The point of this is, the problems that plague Back Talk are nothing new. They've been going on for as long as that forum has been in existence.

My take on the psycho fan:

Most Journey fans are good natured ordinary people, fans of the music. HOWEVER. There's a small percentage out there that would make most Psychology PHD's scratch their heads. To some people, their entire essence, their entire purpose in life and for getting up in the morning, is Journey, or a particular band member. Other bands have their share of these fans as well. Looking from the inside circle out gives you completely different perspective, one I wasn't anticipating. I just assumed most people were like me....until I became the buffer between the band and it's internet fan base. That experience definately soured me a bit.

Rindell, who used to work for Journey, used to say

"What is the word FAN short for? F-A-N-A-T-I-C"

Cheers!

Hey Michael! Your Journey forum was the best! Have you heard from the #1 problem poster Mr. DiMino lately?

[Enigma869]

I suspect that a certain number of moderators there *love* the user-whacking power that they wield and don't mind one iotta over-moderating the place...because it gives their lives a sense of importance. Which goes back to my original thought that average Back Talk mob poster has a very unfulfilled home life....and the moderators of an online society are in fact, extensions of the society itself. Most of the moderators there came out of Back Talk itself...so they really had to be in-line with the party-talk before signing up to enforce it.

Another point I agree with. I've been "banging that drum" for years that the mods (I should say most, as I think there actually is one decent mod on that site)on that site seem to think their place in this world is FAR more important than it ever will be. Although I've been a Journey fan for most of my life...at the end of the day, it's just music and really not that important to me, in the grand scheme of things! I'm convinced that the mods on that site have secret competitions to see which one of them can lock or delete the most threads per hour! I wonder what the prize is that goes to the winner

John from Boston

[strangegrey]

I have to also echo what you just said...Not all of the mods at BT are bad eggs....and I think that some simply take their job way too seriously...

[Monker]

Agreed...and was not advocating 'no moderation' although there are some boards out there that can run without moderation....

And, your point is that it is the people who are using that forum can be responsible enough for their own action that they do not need a moderator to tell them they are out of line. I have NEVER seen a Journey forum that would fit that description. The mailing list comes close...but even it has it's share of problems.

My opinion is that over moderation to the extent that has been exercised at BT has contributed to creating the very atmosphere you have over there.

Well, I think the problem with BT is the people who really WANT interesting conversation have given up on it. So, all you have left are those fighting for whatever cause matches the label you tagged on them.

Back Talk..? I still to this day dont understand why it didn't fall apart....but like I said before, it could make a very tasty subject for a doctoral thesis in 'online society'

I'll tell you why. There are certain factions out their who want a voice. BT gives a voice for a certain faction. So, no matter who is moderating, or how it is moderated, BT will have posters because they want their voice heard and BT will allow it.

Now BT is going through a change...how will that forum handle pushing aside the Augeri fans and the voice they want heard, and allow the JSS fans to come on board and allow their voice to be heard...all along follow the 'official' line of what Journey wants on their forum? I think that is a tough situation for them to reconcile...one that may finaly end up killing the forum.

[yulog]

SOME moderation MUST exist, otherwise all you have are people have the "fuck you" attitude that you display above.

Agreed...and was not advocating 'no moderation' although there are some boards out there that can run without moderation....

My opinion is that over moderation to the extent that has been exercised at BT has contributed to creating the very atmosphere you have over there.

In my experience, that type of moderation kills a board. A certain amp builders board that I frequented last year suffered greatly as a result of severe moderation (after years of little moderation).

Back Talk..? I still to this day dont understand why it didn't fall apart....but like I said before, it could make a very tasty subject for a doctoral thesis in 'online society'

Im guessing some of those boards that dont need moderation are:
1)the i love haldol board
2)im so happy since starting prozac board
3)you cant piss me off when im on ativan board

[strangegrey]

My opinion is that over moderation to the extent that has been exercised at BT has contributed to creating the very atmosphere you have over there.

Well, I think the problem with BT is the people who really WANT interesting conversation have given up on it. So, all you have left are those fighting for whatever cause matches the label you tagged on them.

Good way of putting it. It's pretty much what I mean. The void gets filled by those remaining...

Now BT is going through a change...how will that forum handle pushing aside the Augeri fans and the voice they want heard, and allow the JSS fans to come on board and allow their voice to be heard...all along follow the 'official' line of what Journey wants on their forum? I think that is a tough situation for them to reconcile...one that may finaly end up killing the forum.

I'm curious to see what happens. I agree....the place right now, is full of fighting...regarding the JSS switch....and it might just tear itself apart...

[Monker]

BTW, Monker...Long time no speak!!! How are you!?

Ah, I'm OK. I'm still a pain in the ass to most moderators...just ask Andrew, LOL. I'm much more subdued then I used to be, I think anyway. Even more then old forum, I miss the old IRC chats...THAT was fun.

[EightyRock]

Won't the mods at BT just shuffle those currently heated topics off to either Precious Time (for former band members) or to the new BT section for chronic bitching? They shifted all the Perry topics to PT and that cut out some arguing about him. Alot of those people left for Perry forums. I think that the Wigglers are going to have to get used to bitching at PT or hang out at Augeriville (or create another forum for the dude). I don't picture it being handled any other way, especially in light of the fact that Wiggler was lippin' and nearly took the entire band down with him.

[strangegrey]

Wiggler?! LOL
I assume you mean Steve A?
What's the reason behind that nickname?

[Eric]

The old Journey forum used to be a lot like this Journey forum here on MR......

I have gotten pulled into the arguing time and time again and have behaved no better...or not much better. I must admit.

I think having the forum on the official site is important...it can be a great PR machine.

[EightyRock]

Strangegrey said,
"Wiggler?! LOL
I assume you mean Steve A?
What's the reason behind that nickname?"

Bingo. His handful of fans liked that dorky-assed shuffle he did onstage and even started a thread about his wiggle. Thus, "Wiggler".

[Skylorde]

Hey Michael! Your Journey forum was the best! Have you heard from the #1 problem poster Mr. DiMino lately?

Ah yes, Steamin Deamon. As much of a pain in the ass as he was, he had a likeable side to him. I remember when he started a rumor stating a new Perry solo album was in the works called Rock, Paper, Scissors. The Perry-Heads were practially having orgasms, they fell for it hook, line and sinker.

The rumor just wouldn't go away and some low profile media outlets picked up on it if I'm not mistaken which furthered it along. It finally prompted Perry to release a statement through Laura Beard that the rumors were false

[strangegrey]

I liked Meanie...he was funny...and he certainly was spot on with respect to Perry....as much as the truth hurt, he told it like it was.

[Enigma869]

Wiggler?! LOL
I assume you mean Steve A?
What's the reason behind that nickname?

You must never read Jackass Talk. The yahoo fans you were describing earlier actually had pages of "Stevie Awesome Wiggle" threads over there! It was quite nauseating, actually! That was the final straw for me! I hope Andrew breaks the first person's legs who starts one of those moronic threads on this site!!!!!!

John from Boston

[Barb]

Hey Michael! Your Journey forum was the best! Have you heard from the #1 problem poster Mr. DiMino lately?

Ah yes, Steamin Deamon. As much of a pain in the ass as he was, he had a likeable side to him. I remember when he started a rumor stating a new Perry solo album was in the works called Rock, Paper, Scissors. The Perry-Heads were practially having orgasms, they fell for it hook, line and sinker.

The rumor just wouldn't go away and some low profile media outlets picked up on it if I'm not mistaken which furthered it along. It finally prompted Perry to release a statement through Laura Beard that the rumors were false

LOL! I absolutely remember that. His "press release" did sound very official, but the title "Rock, Paper, Scissors" should have been a clue for anyone with 1/4 of a brain! I liked Mike, but he was definitely a problem child.

[tammy]

Tammy, as already stated...I do offer appologies to those that dont feel they belong in the description of the 'mob'.

***********

Oh, hi there. I do thank you for that...I think what gets my dander up more than anything is generalizations, and I know it is very hard not to, so I appreciate you coming on to explain.

It's interesting about "online society"...why do people act so differently online than in person? Annonimity lets people get away with so much that would definitely not be acceptable face to face. I don't know...I'm pretty much the same online as in person, I think...honest, but still respectful (I hope)...I did feel there was a great deal of control over at BT. I really had to be careful how I worded things so NO ONE would be offended - that gets stressful, especially since I am a Perry fan....someone would be offended some way, some how even if I typed over & over "this is just my opinion". I don't have a problem with women admiring Rockers, I do it too. It goes hand in hand with "drugs, sex, and Rock & Roll", I guess. But, I usually go to another forum to do that admiring of assets.

Honestly, I don't know how to talk about music (voice, guitars, chords) because I am not coming from that perspective & I think a great majority are like me, majority being women...we love it, we love who sings it or plays it & we don't care too much about what octave it is (although, I do like understanding about it, too)...it is escapism from pretty routine life. Going overboard with obsession is certainly not good - everything in moderation.
Besides, do the band members mind that??? I bet they loved being admired by the ladies - I've heard a lot of guys say, "I joined a band to get chicks" Now, I would love to understand the pyschology of this - why do women feel this way about Rock Stars (or other musical idols)? Why did the Beatles mania happen? I never thought about this stuff until I became a big fan 2 yrs ago...in fact, I was stunned & scared of the overwhelming feelings hearing this music provoked. But, I'm way too old to be a groupie & "do favors" to get meet & greets. LOL!

[Monker]

The old Journey forum used to be a lot like this Journey forum here on MR......

I have gotten pulled into the arguing time and time again and have behaved no better...or not much better. I must admit.

I think having the forum on the official site is important...it can be a great PR machine.

I don't think this is much like Sky's old forum at all. It's more like the newsgroup or the old Sony forum, or the VH1 forum, where there is an "anything goes" atmosphere. It wasn't like that at all on Sky's forum. I don't remember seeing porn on Sky's forum, or people wishing each other dead, and some of the outright nastyness that goes on here. When people approached that, and Meanie would if he were allowed, they were dealt with by Sky...up to and including being kicked off for a while.

This place, IMO, kisses Andrew's ass to get by with whatever they want. But, when Andrew lays the law down, he's called an asshole by the very people who kiss his ass. None of that happened on Sky's forum either...as far as I know.

People could speak their mind on Sky's but they had to do it within reasonable limits. There were people there who would test those limits. Meanie was one. Maybe I was too, but I think I was on the 'civil' side of things and I doubt I ever crossed those lines.

If there ARE limits here, they are very unclear. Andrew says one thing and allows another.

As for a forum on journeymusic.com. IMO, it's more of a liability now then an asset. Do you REALLY think that forum is something the band wants people to read who are new to the band? I would have a VERY hard time believing that it is.