The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

[RossValoryRocks]

I said regardless of my personal beliefs. I think abortion is horrid, and that it is the taken of a life. But in this case I don't think it the governments right to interfere with a one human life to save another.

In most cases, it's not interfering with one human life but simply one human's inconvenience.

Possibly, but as I said God is the ultimate judge and jury in this. I am content that it is that way.

[BobbyinTN]

Bobby I agree with you here. Hence my being a Conservative Libertarian. As far as government goes it has no place legislating a persons personal life, in the bedroom, in the womb, etc. Regardless of my personal beliefs on the subject.

I do believe the less government the better, and that includes government intervention in personal lives.

I agree with you except for the "in the womb" comment. I think innocent human life should be protected and believe that is a libertarian principle.

I said regardless of my personal beliefs. I think abortion is horrid, and that it is the taken of a life. But in this case I don't think it the governments right to interfere with a one human life to save another.

I believe in the end God will judge them, and I am satisfied with that.

We agree again. I HATE HATE HATE the idea of abortion, but what I hate more is the thought of me having the power to tell someone else what to do with their bodies. It seems to me those of "faith" that are against a woman's right to choose would understand their God will take care of those things, but too many times those same people with "faith" are the ones who want to act on behalf of God instead of letting God do His job. It honestly seems to me those people (against the rights of others) have very little "faith" in their God.

[Saint John]

So do you think it's the right thing to give oil companies a tax break after making record profits?

I have no problem with rewarding success. They'd be able to add more jobs as well. Capitalism, baby!!!

They're the least needing of any financial assistance and haven't even asked for it,

This isn't about need.

while every day working people are losing everything.

Which is a wonderful thing. It's the only way average people will finally realize that new cars, cell phones, gadgets and credit cards are not the way you're supposed to live!!! Bailing these people out will only perpetuate the problem. Welfare has a generational track record of not working. This is a mutated form of a failing policy. These people need to lose everything so this doesn't happen again. If they think the government will always be there to catch them, they'll keep jumping off of cliffs at the responsible taxpayer's expense.

Obama wants to help those who need help the most.

Not in the abstract he doesn't. Again, he's merely buying votes at the expense of responsible taxpayers and that is unfair.

[Saint John]

I don't consider transgenders people so they don't fall under the umbrella of "citizens."

Wow!! That's pretty fuckin' heartless.

So is mutilating your genitalia!!!

[conversationpc]

We agree again. I HATE HATE HATE the idea of abortion, but what I hate more is the thought of me having the power to tell someone else what to do with their bodies.

Don't forget that the unborn child has its own body, always with unique genetic makeup, a different sex half of the time, separate heartbeat, blood type, etc. Who will give them the protection I believe they deserve?

It seems to me those of "faith" that are against a woman's right to choose would understand their God will take care of those things, but too many times those same people with "faith" are the ones who want to act on behalf of God instead of letting God do His job. It honestly seems to me those people (against the rights of others) have very little "faith" in their God.

Then why do we have government at all? If what you said above is true, we should just live in anarchy and let God sort it all out. God will still take care of thieves, for instance, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't protect people against others breaking into their homes.

[Skylorde]

Should we revamp everything and go with the Westminster system? Would it be better for us or is it too radical of a change?

Actually, I have to revise my statement somewhat. The two party system is a symptom of the problem. WE THE PEOPLE are the problem, which also answers your question.

Case in point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyvqhdll ... ture=bz302

In fairness, they did the same thing with McCain supporters with the same result. How many people do you know like this? How many people could hang with us here in this discussion, this thread? Yea, I know some but they are a minority. Most people have no clue...at all.

Until We The People change our attitude, get involved and educate ourselves on the issues andvote corruption out of office, nothing will ever, ever change. The system is fine, WE are the problem

[BobbyinTN]

I don't consider transgenders people so they don't fall under the umbrella of "citizens."

Wow!! That's pretty fuckin' heartless.

So is mutilating your genitalia!!!

Keywords, "your genitalia". A little more understanding would work wonders for you.

[BobbyinTN]

Then why do we have government at all? If what you said above is true, we should just live in anarchy and let God sort it all out. God will still take care of thieves, for instance, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't protect people against others breaking into their homes.

Government should never be allowed to dictate what we do with our bodies. Your hyperbolic response negates any kind of discourse.

I believe it's a slippery slope. First they tell women what they can do with their bodies, and then they start telling everyone else what they can and can't do. Masturbation is a "sin" according to some belief systems, much of the same that condemn abortion. Should that also be outlawed? Follow the logic and it's not hard to understand how it could be.

[Saint John]

Keywords, "your genitalia". A little more understanding would work wonders for you.

Bullshit!!! If I sat on a street corner and pounded my balls into oblivion with a hammer I'd be in an institution faster than you into an unsuspecting asshole. It's disturbing and horrifying behavior whether I do it on a street corner or as part of a surgical process.

[Tito]

True...but discrimination of ANY type is not cool. You know it too. It would be no differnt than saying Obama shouldn't be President because he is black. It is an inane comment to say that age, gender, race, or sexual preference should matter in qualification for a job, any job, even President.

Depends. I believe in individual rights first. If a business owner does not want to hire a person because they disagree with their sexual preference they should be able to not hire or be able to fire that person if they choose. Same thing with serving customers.

Being gay is one thing (and IMO is wrong) but this transgender stuff is flat out gross, disturbing, total freak behavior, and should be illegal. I definitely think they should excluded from any so called discrimination laws. If you have an employee named Joe on Friday at 5pm but they come back named Jane on Monday at 8am, I'm sorry but there's a problem. That is not a rational and normal thinking person. They should be fired on the spot.

Just proves you're more about money and business than you are individual rights. Republicans scream daily "smaller government" but what they really mean is they want government to be small where they are concerned and legislate everyone else out of existence.

You have no right to declare anyone "wrong" for who they are. Small minds are an amazing thing and hopefully soon going extinct.

Who am I legislating against? I'm giving people choices.

Transgender is flat out wrong. Weirdos are an amazing thing and hopefully soon going extinct.

Why are they wrong? And don't bring religion into it, this country is not a theocracy. Explain to me how you know the minds of transgendered people. Explain to me how you can declare someone "wrong" unless you've walked a mile in their shoes? Maybe what's really wrong is you're scared of them.

The illegal part is not literal. However, the rest of my statement stands. I believe if an employee leaves Friday as a man and comes back Monday as a woman, an employer has the right to fire that person. If they want. That is the individual right of that employer.

Regardless of walking in their shoes, they are weirdos.

[Tito]

So do you think it's the right thing to give oil companies a tax break after making record profits? They're the least needing of any financial assistance and haven't even asked for it, while every day working people are losing everything. Obama wants to help those who need help the most. How that doesn't make sense is beyond me.

Oil companies profit margin is a whopping 8%. Microsoft is around 25%. Why not go after them? Walmart is just over 10%, why not go after them too? Here's the problem with your statement.

When you let the government decide how much of your profit is "fair" and how much is "unfair", you've crossed a threshold you can never recover from. It's not the governments job to tax a person or entity because they deem their profits "unfair". If so, they will spend us into oblivion and at some point, people making 100k a year will be deemed "unfair" and "excessive" and smashed with some kind of similar tax.

The government makes more in taxes on oil companies than the oil companies make in profit. You want to help people out, lower the taxes on the oil companies. It's not like they don't have a diversified investment portofolio too, the markets need capital. The oil companies have it.

[Tito]

I said regardless of my personal beliefs. I think abortion is horrid, and that it is the taken of a life. But in this case I don't think it the governments right to interfere with a one human life to save another.

In most cases, it's not interfering with one human life but simply one human's inconvenience.

Possibly, but as I said God is the ultimate judge and jury in this. I am content that it is that way.

What about father rights then? Last time I checked a woman just doesn't wake up pregnant one day by herself. It takes two to tango (if you know what I mean). I believen in Pro Life And Pro Choice. It's woman right to choose who she sleeps with (and the guy too) but they better be prepared for the consequences. Abortion is NOT birth control. I believe in exceptions for rape and incest (obviously they didn't have a choice in the matter) as well as when the life of the mother is a stake (can't take one life for another). Therefore, one could be pro-life and pro-choice.

[conversationpc]

Government should never be allowed to dictate what we do with our bodies. Your hyperbolic response negates any kind of discourse.

It negates the discourse in your mind because you don't want to consider the alternative. It's every bit a valid comparison.

I'll restate the question...Why isn't an unborn child subject to the same protection from law that the pregnant woman receives? Look, I'm sympathetic to these women. I know how hard it is. My wife and I have done foster care and adopted a child that no one else wanted, so we're not cold-hearted people who want to burden a woman with an unwanted child. I just simply don't understand why it's okay to kill an unborn child like they are simply a lump of flesh inside the woman or POC (product of conception).

I believe it's a slippery slope. First they tell women what they can do with their bodies, and then they start telling everyone else what they can and can't do. Masturbation is a "sin" according to some belief systems, much of the same that condemn abortion. Should that also be outlawed? Follow the logic and it's not hard to understand how it could be.

Like I said, the unborn baby is not the mother's own body. It's a separate living human being. Equating an unborn child with a wasted glob of cum from someone pleasuring themselves isn't logical.

[Tito]

So do you think it's the right thing to give oil companies a tax break after making record profits? They're the least needing of any financial assistance and haven't even asked for it, while every day working people are losing everything. Obama wants to help those who need help the most. How that doesn't make sense is beyond me.

I forgot to address the bolded part. Last time, I checked it was their money. Not ours or the governments.

[strangegrey]

Oil companies profit margin is a whopping 8%. Microsoft is around 25%. Why not go after them? Walmart is just over 10%, why not go after them too?

Hate to disagree with you Mike, but some thing I want to weigh in on here. Different industries have different general profit percentages. tech companies generally have higher profit margins, but not during years with heavy R&D. They take a big bath on the R&D expense, which they can't capitalize. So the 25% margin that microsoft may reap, is smoothed out during R&D years.

The issue with oil, is one of scale. Big oil takes in huge windfall profits in the gross, not the percentage. If you sell 20 gallons of gas and take 8% of each sale...that 8% is going to be more like 16% if the price of gas is $4 instead of $2...through no fault or effort of the oil companies other than market prices.

[Tito]

Keywords, "your genitalia". A little more understanding would work wonders for you.

Bullshit!!! If I sat on a street corner and pounded my balls into oblivion with a hammer I'd be in an institution faster than you into an unsuspecting asshole. It's disturbing and horrifying behavior whether I do it on a street corner or as part of a surgical process.

[Rick]

So do you think it's the right thing to give oil companies a tax break after making record profits? They're the least needing of any financial assistance and haven't even asked for it, while every day working people are losing everything. Obama wants to help those who need help the most. How that doesn't make sense is beyond me.

I forgot to address the bolded part. Last time, I checked it was their money. Not ours or the governments.

If they're making billions in profits, giving them a tax break is moronic if you have people who can't pay their mortgage. On top of that, McCain wan'ts the tax payers to buy those unpaid mortgages at full price, putting the burden 100% on them, clearing the bank completely of a bad debt, that the bank initiated.

[Saint John]

If they're making billions in profits, giving them a tax break is moronic if you have people who can't pay their mortgage.

So if you raise their taxes does the Mortgage Fairy pay their note?

[Rick]

Masturbation is a "sin"

I'm fucked.

[Rick]

If they're making billions in profits, giving them a tax break is moronic if you have people who can't pay their mortgage.

So if you raise their taxes does the Mortgage Fairy pay their note?

No, but giving me a tax break couldn't hurt. They do teach basic math in Illinois don't they?

[Rhiannon]

Masturbation is a "sin"

I'm fucked.

Interesting choice of words...

[Saint John]

If they're making billions in profits, giving them a tax break is moronic if you have people who can't pay their mortgage.

So if you raise their taxes does the Mortgage Fairy pay their note?

No, but giving me a tax break couldn't hurt. They do teach basic math in Illinois don't they?

Giving a tax break to an oil comapny will create jobs where as giving one to someone that didn't have the foresight to be able to pay a fixed mortgage only perpetuates a problem. People need to learn to save!!! These home owners need to suffer...just like the banks should, which is why I am 100% against this bailout and disagree with both candidates.

[Saint John]

Hey, did anyone notice that the Liberals got their ass handed to them yesterday in Canada?

Give it to BobbyinTN. He'd like that.

[strangegrey]

Giving a tax break to an oil comapny will create jobs where as giving one to someone that didn't have the foresight to be able to pay a fixed mortgage only perpetuates a problem. People need to learn to save!!! These home owners need to suffer...just like the banks should, which is why I am 100% against this bailout and disagree with both candidates.

A few issues here:

oil companies
They're reaping windfall profits right now, while working no harder. Given them tax breaks will do nothing but increase net profit, potentially dividends (if they're paying them) and retained earnings. No more. They wont hire new people with the savings, because they wont have to. It's along the same lines as giving a tax break to the rich to stimulate the economy. It doesn't work that way...because the rich dont need to run out and spend it. It just goes into the coffers and they spend as they normally would.

Sorry, on the oil discussions, I do not agree with oil ceo's and conservatives. People claim they're not making great profits, but I firmly believe they are taking advantage of massive earnings management to shield the public from windfall profits in an effort to temper public opinion from hanging, drawing and quartering them. Variable costs used in petrolium manufacturing are measured on basis of volume, not final sale. The 8% you see, is the 'managed' number at the end. When you spend x number of dollars to refine a gallon of gas, that X number of dollars doesn't change when the price of gas at the pump goes from 2 dollars to 4 dollars. In fact, the theoretical 8% that oil companies make at say 2 dollars is actually far in excess of 16% at 4 dollars a gallon....it's probably in the 25-40% range.

Home Owners
Listen, some home owners were given full disclosure...but there are ALOT of home owners that were preyed upon. Hell, in 2001, when my wife and I bought our first house....during closing, my wife caught out of the corner of her eye a very small print section that outlined how our mortgage was really an ARM...and not the fixed rate we demanded that we get. Our real estate lawyer didn't catch it....but my wife did. She, on the spot, fired the lawyer and continued the process herself.

Let me also state, our mortgage company was not selling us a sub prime mortgage...it was a mortgage through one of the most reputable banks in the country.

If this kinda of shit almost got past a corporate attorney and a computer programmer, it could have easily raped and pilaged the family of joe six pack blue collar worker.

There *was* predatory lending going on....significant amounts of it. Sorry....people that got hoodwinked by these lenders need more help than wall street.


credit default swaps and the market
Keep in mind, most of the mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps are dependent on mortgages not defaulting. If you give immediate help to people so that they *dont* default on their loans, the market will snap back....hard. Bailing out home owners makes *good* sense.

[Saint John]

Good points, Frank. Thanks.

[Deb]

Hey, did anyone notice that the Liberals got their ass handed to them yesterday in Canada?

Yep.

[Deb]

Hey, did anyone notice that the Liberals got their ass handed to them yesterday in Canada?

Yep.

Good for you guys.

LOL and my Flames finally won a game too. Woke up on the right side of the bed this morning.

[Rick]

If they're making billions in profits, giving them a tax break is moronic if you have people who can't pay their mortgage.

So if you raise their taxes does the Mortgage Fairy pay their note?

No, but giving me a tax break couldn't hurt. They do teach basic math in Illinois don't they?

Giving a tax break to an oil comapny will create jobs where as giving one to someone that didn't have the foresight to be able to pay a fixed mortgage only perpetuates a problem. People need to learn to save!!! These home owners need to suffer...just like the banks should, which is why I am 100% against this bailout and disagree with both candidates.

Well we do agree on the bailout. Using tax dollars to rescue people from bad decisions teaches nobody anything and costs everyone.

[BobbyinTN]

Keywords, "your genitalia". A little more understanding would work wonders for you.

Bullshit!!! If I sat on a street corner and pounded my balls into oblivion with a hammer I'd be in an institution faster than you into an unsuspecting asshole. It's disturbing and horrifying behavior whether I do it on a street corner or as part of a surgical process.

That's your opinion. Psychiatrist and mental health officials think differently. Trans-sexuals are not a threat to anyone, and they don't "mutilate" themselves. They have surgery. They must go through a process, a mental evaluation, before they can do anything legally.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that sometimes certain things are out of their control? I'm a man. I'm a gay man. I've never wanted a sex change operation and I honestly don't understand it either, but it's not for me to condemn something just because I don't understand it. I've met some trans-sexuals and let me tell you this, they are exactly who they think they are. I know one male to female who even as a male, most people thought was a female. He said he just felt like he was born wrong. I can't judge him, condemn him or ridicule him. It's his life and it doesn't affect me what-so-ever. I choose to be a little more evolved than that.

The same with gay marriage. Those opposed to gay marriage are opposed soley for bigoted reasons, because if they thought about it, they would know it doesn't affect them one iota in their private lives.

It boils down to people wanting to control the lives of others and force them to be something they aren't. The times are changing and no one should ever be forced to be something they are not or to behave in a mannar that goes against their nature.

If you don't support homosexual marriage, don't marry a homosexual. If you don't support sex change, don't get one. Just live your life and let others live theirs.

(Saint John, my use of "you" and "your" are plural and not meant for you specifically)

[BobbyinTN]

Government should never be allowed to dictate what we do with our bodies. Your hyperbolic response negates any kind of discourse.

It negates the discourse in your mind because you don't want to consider the alternative. It's every bit a valid comparison.

I'll restate the question...Why isn't an unborn child subject to the same protection from law that the pregnant woman receives? Look, I'm sympathetic to these women. I know how hard it is. My wife and I have done foster care and adopted a child that no one else wanted, so we're not cold-hearted people who want to burden a woman with an unwanted child. I just simply don't understand why it's okay to kill an unborn child like they are simply a lump of flesh inside the woman or POC (product of conception).

I believe it's a slippery slope. First they tell women what they can do with their bodies, and then they start telling everyone else what they can and can't do. Masturbation is a "sin" according to some belief systems, much of the same that condemn abortion. Should that also be outlawed? Follow the logic and it's not hard to understand how it could be.

Like I said, the unborn baby is not the mother's own body. It's a separate living human being. Equating an unborn child with a wasted glob of cum from someone pleasuring themselves isn't logical.

I think the biggest argument has been the "when does life begin" issue. A fetus developes a body, but doesn't start out with one, as a matter of fact, it does just start out as a "clump of cells". Like I said, I can't argue FOR abortion, because I don't agree with it either, but I can't argue against it based on my feelings. What that woman does with her body and what's inside it is between her and her God, or whatever she believes. I've had two friends who had to have abortions, one was raped, one was on drugs. It still haunts them both to this day, but they know it was the right decision.

Conserv, my point is simply this, it's a slippery slope and easy to slide off into the abyss before you know what's happening. Make a law today that forbids a woman to have an abortion and tomorrow laws are made that forbid birth control, masturbation, divorce, and many other things.

The bottom line for me is my feelings and my opinions don't count when it comes to someone else making decisions about themselves and I think involving government in that is the biggest mistake someone can make.