The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

[conversationpc]

The same with gay marriage. Those opposed to gay marriage are opposed soley for bigoted reasons, because if they thought about it, they would know it doesn't affect them one iota in their private lives.

There are a good number of gays who are against gay marriage. Are they bigoted also?

[BobbyinTN]

Masturbation is a "sin"

I'm fucked.

Many of us would be.

[BobbyinTN]

Hey, did anyone notice that the Liberals got their ass handed to them yesterday in Canada?

Give it to BobbyinTN. He'd like that.

There you go again, fantasizing about my sex life.

[conversationpc]

I think the biggest argument has been the "when does life begin" issue. A fetus developes a body, but doesn't start out with one, as a matter of fact, it does just start out as a "clump of cells".

Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that we don't know when life begins. It then makes no sense to err on the side of death for the unborn when there's a chance you may be wrong. Regardless, it's never just a "clump of cells". It's always genetically 100% human.

Conserv, my point is simply this, it's a slippery slope and easy to slide off into the abyss before you know what's happening. Make a law today that forbids a woman to have an abortion and tomorrow laws are made that forbid birth control, masturbation, divorce, and many other things.

It's a slippery slope in the other direction also. We've already seen how euthanasia is beginning to gain steam towards being acceptable and recently there was even a professor from a major university (can't remember who right now but I can find it, if necessary) that advocated the killing of children up until two years of age.

[conversationpc]

Hey, did anyone notice that the Liberals got their ass handed to them yesterday in Canada?

Give it to BobbyinTN. He'd like that.

There you go again, fantasizing about my sex life.

[BobbyinTN]

The same with gay marriage. Those opposed to gay marriage are opposed soley for bigoted reasons, because if they thought about it, they would know it doesn't affect them one iota in their private lives.

There are a good number of gays who are against gay marriage. Are they bigoted also?

No, they're just stupid. LOL However, I'm very involved with the community and have never encountered a homosexual who was against same-sex marriage.

[Tito]

Home Owners
Listen, some home owners were given full disclosure...but there are ALOT of home owners that were preyed upon. Hell, in 2001, when my wife and I bought our first house....during closing, my wife caught out of the corner of her eye a very small print section that outlined how our mortgage was really an ARM...and not the fixed rate we demanded that we get. Our real estate lawyer didn't catch it....but my wife did. She, on the spot, fired the lawyer and continued the process herself.

Let me also state, our mortgage company was not selling us a sub prime mortgage...it was a mortgage through one of the most reputable banks in the country.

If this kinda of shit almost got past a corporate attorney and a computer programmer, it could have easily raped and pilaged the family of joe six pack blue collar worker.

There *was* predatory lending going on....significant amounts of it. Sorry....people that got hoodwinked by these lenders need more help than wall street.


credit default swaps and the market
Keep in mind, most of the mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps are dependent on mortgages not defaulting. If you give immediate help to people so that they *dont* default on their loans, the market will snap back....hard. Bailing out home owners makes *good* sense.

Sue the lawyer. What the mortgage company did was fraud as well. Countrywide is paying through the nose right now in a multi-state settlement probably for the reason you just described.

For true (one home) homebuyers, assistance may be fine but for real estate investors, speculators, and house flippers they need to eat it. People that are going to default no matter what have to be S.O.L. People that have been legitly duped by predatory loans need their loans fixed to a fixed rate loan. If that doesn't save them, then possibly some assistance is fine but again if they are going to default even under the new rate they're S.O.L. Subprime loans need to be abolished and lending rules tightened for the future. That's all. I'm 100% against a bailout and very cool to mortgage bailouts but I agree the mortgage bailout should be done first and the only possible bailout done at all. That would help the market out the most and the most (and average) people. It also must be a very limited bailout not a mass bailout.

As far as MBS, you are correct but they take some risk in their investment. Again, the investors are S.O.L. Grant it, a limited mortgage bailout would help them out too but not entirely but better than nothing. If they were duped, they have the money and lawyers to seek recourse. People need to be jailed for this, not rewarded.

[conversationpc]

The same with gay marriage. Those opposed to gay marriage are opposed soley for bigoted reasons, because if they thought about it, they would know it doesn't affect them one iota in their private lives.

There are a good number of gays who are against gay marriage. Are they bigoted also?

No, they're just stupid. LOL However, I'm very involved with the community and have never encountered a homosexual who was against same-sex marriage.

Are you kidding me? I've seen and heard of quite a few. Perhaps not a majority of gays but they are certainly out there.

[BobbyinTN]

I think the biggest argument has been the "when does life begin" issue. A fetus developes a body, but doesn't start out with one, as a matter of fact, it does just start out as a "clump of cells".

Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that we don't know when life begins. It then makes no sense to err on the side of death for the unborn when there's a chance you may be wrong. Regardless, it's never just a "clump of cells". It's always genetically 100% human.

Conserv, my point is simply this, it's a slippery slope and easy to slide off into the abyss before you know what's happening. Make a law today that forbids a woman to have an abortion and tomorrow laws are made that forbid birth control, masturbation, divorce, and many other things.

It's a slippery slope in the other direction also. We've already seen how euthanasia is beginning to gain steam towards being acceptable and recently there was even a professor from a major university (can't remember who right now but I can find it, if necessary) that advocated the killing of children up until two years of age.

Well, that's just fuckin' crazy and he should be launched into outer space.

Another thing that pisses me off is so many of the people against abortion are also trying to stop gays from adopting. Isn't that defeating the purpose? I've got friends who are adopting unwanted children and the children are thriving. Hell, I'd adopt to stop someone from aborting, but right now the world is too consumed with making me and other homosexuals the "bad guys".

[Tito]

That's your opinion. Psychiatrist and mental health officials think differently. Trans-sexuals are not a threat to anyone, and they don't "mutilate" themselves. They have surgery. They must go through a process, a mental evaluation, before they can do anything legally.

How do they pass that. Wasn't homosexually still classified a mental illness in the mid 70s.

[BobbyinTN]

The same with gay marriage. Those opposed to gay marriage are opposed soley for bigoted reasons, because if they thought about it, they would know it doesn't affect them one iota in their private lives.

There are a good number of gays who are against gay marriage. Are they bigoted also?

No, they're just stupid. LOL However, I'm very involved with the community and have never encountered a homosexual who was against same-sex marriage.

Are you kidding me? I've seen and heard of quite a few. Perhaps not a majority of gays but they are certainly out there.

I'm sure they are. I mean hell, the Log Cagin Republicans fuck my brain up. However, as pissed as I get about their politics, I still respect them for standing up for what they think.

[conversationpc]

Another thing that pisses me off is so many of the people against abortion are also trying to stop gays from adopting. Isn't that defeating the purpose? I've got friends who are adopting unwanted children and the children are thriving. Hell, I'd adopt to stop someone from aborting, but right now the world is too consumed with making me and other homosexuals the "bad guys".

Well, I know of some who support gay marriage but oppose gay adoption. Go figure.

[conversationpc]

That's your opinion. Psychiatrist and mental health officials think differently. Trans-sexuals are not a threat to anyone, and they don't "mutilate" themselves. They have surgery. They must go through a process, a mental evaluation, before they can do anything legally.

How do they pass that. Wasn't homosexually still classified a mental illness in the mid 70s.

I'm pretty sure it was. I think a lot of pressure was put on the psychological community to change that distinction, though.

[Tito]

I've had two friends who had to have abortions, one was raped, one was on drugs. It still haunts them both to this day, but they know it was the right decision.

The one that was raped - should be allowed to have an abortion. Hmmm.. the one on drugs. Interesting, she lacked capacity due to the drug use. That one I never thought about. That could be a possible exception but that may open a can of worms. I would need to think about that one a little more but I would probably say no.

[conversationpc]

I've had two friends who had to have abortions, one was raped, one was on drugs. It still haunts them both to this day, but they know it was the right decision.

The one that was raped - should be allowed to have an abortion. Hmmm.. the one on drugs. Interesting, she lacked capacity due to the drug use. That one I never thought about. That could be a possible exception but that may open a can of worms. I would need to think about that one a little more but I would probably say no.

My daughter was born with FAS (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). I'm glad she wasn't aborted.

[RedWingFan]

Bobby I agree with you here. Hence my being a Conservative Libertarian. As far as government goes it has no place legislating a persons personal life, in the bedroom, in the womb, etc. Regardless of my personal beliefs on the subject.

I do believe the less government the better, and that includes government intervention in personal lives.

I agree with you except for the "in the womb" comment. I think innocent human life should be protected and believe that is a libertarian principle.

I said regardless of my personal beliefs. I think abortion is horrid, and that it is the taken of a life. But in this case I don't think it the governments right to interfere with a one human life to save another.

I believe in the end God will judge them, and I am satisfied with that.

So if the mother decided she wanted to sell her "fetus" into a foreign slave trade (labor or sexual). You think she should be free to do that? God deosn't want us to let horrid things happen and let him deal the punishment. Ever hear of the flood? Noah? He didn't do all that because he wanted to.

[BobbyinTN]

That's your opinion. Psychiatrist and mental health officials think differently. Trans-sexuals are not a threat to anyone, and they don't "mutilate" themselves. They have surgery. They must go through a process, a mental evaluation, before they can do anything legally.

How do they pass that. Wasn't homosexually still classified a mental illness in the mid 70s.

It was taken off the "list" in '73, I think. I'm not sure of the complete criterion for the evaluation, but functioning in society "normally" is probably part of it. Most of those people are completely "normal" (I hate that fuckin' word and would never want to be called it) with just the idea or feeling that something about them is wrong.

As for why homosexuality was taken of the list of mental disorders, science trumped supersition and they realized that homosexuality is simply a part of some people as is heterosexuality.

[BobbyinTN]

I've had two friends who had to have abortions, one was raped, one was on drugs. It still haunts them both to this day, but they know it was the right decision.

The one that was raped - should be allowed to have an abortion. Hmmm.. the one on drugs. Interesting, she lacked capacity due to the drug use. That one I never thought about. That could be a possible exception but that may open a can of worms. I would need to think about that one a little more but I would probably say no.

My daughter was born with FAS (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). I'm glad she wasn't aborted.

Well, I don't know her or you, but I'm glad she wasn't too.

[Tito]

I think the biggest argument has been the "when does life begin" issue. A fetus developes a body, but doesn't start out with one, as a matter of fact, it does just start out as a "clump of cells".

Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that we don't know when life begins. It then makes no sense to err on the side of death for the unborn when there's a chance you may be wrong. Regardless, it's never just a "clump of cells". It's always genetically 100% human.

Conserv, my point is simply this, it's a slippery slope and easy to slide off into the abyss before you know what's happening. Make a law today that forbids a woman to have an abortion and tomorrow laws are made that forbid birth control, masturbation, divorce, and many other things.

It's a slippery slope in the other direction also. We've already seen how euthanasia is beginning to gain steam towards being acceptable and recently there was even a professor from a major university (can't remember who right now but I can find it, if necessary) that advocated the killing of children up until two years of age.

Well, that's just fuckin' crazy and he should be launched into outer space.

Another thing that pisses me off is so many of the people against abortion are also trying to stop gays from adopting. Isn't that defeating the purpose? I've got friends who are adopting unwanted children and the children are thriving. Hell, I'd adopt to stop someone from aborting, but right now the world is too consumed with making me and other homosexuals the "bad guys".

I'd let you have gay marriage before letting them adopt kids.

No one isn't saying you can't buttf-ck your boyfriend, but if you want to get married, marry a girl.

How about bisexuals. They've always confused me. Do they flip a coin in the morning to see which way they go that day? At least gays have picked a lane.

[Tito]

That's your opinion. Psychiatrist and mental health officials think differently. Trans-sexuals are not a threat to anyone, and they don't "mutilate" themselves. They have surgery. They must go through a process, a mental evaluation, before they can do anything legally.

How do they pass that. Wasn't homosexually still classified a mental illness in the mid 70s.

I'm pretty sure it was. I think a lot of pressure was put on the psychological community to change that distinction, though.

Bingo.

[conversationpc]

I've had two friends who had to have abortions, one was raped, one was on drugs. It still haunts them both to this day, but they know it was the right decision.

The one that was raped - should be allowed to have an abortion. Hmmm.. the one on drugs. Interesting, she lacked capacity due to the drug use. That one I never thought about. That could be a possible exception but that may open a can of worms. I would need to think about that one a little more but I would probably say no.

My daughter was born with FAS (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). I'm glad she wasn't aborted.

Well, I don't know her or you, but I'm glad she wasn't too.

I should clarify that she was adopted. This isn't my wife I'm talking about here.

[BobbyinTN]

Bobby I agree with you here. Hence my being a Conservative Libertarian. As far as government goes it has no place legislating a persons personal life, in the bedroom, in the womb, etc. Regardless of my personal beliefs on the subject.

I do believe the less government the better, and that includes government intervention in personal lives.

I agree with you except for the "in the womb" comment. I think innocent human life should be protected and believe that is a libertarian principle.

I said regardless of my personal beliefs. I think abortion is horrid, and that it is the taken of a life. But in this case I don't think it the governments right to interfere with a one human life to save another.

I believe in the end God will judge them, and I am satisfied with that.

So if the mother decided she wanted to sell her "fetus" into a foreign slave trade (labor or sexual). You think she should be free to do that?

I think that is way different than abortion. Once the babyis born, all bets are off. Either take care of it or give it up for adoption. You'll be hard pressed to find a coservative bone in my body, but a major one is if you have kids, then you have to take care of them until they are grown. Once children enter the equation, your life has to pretty much come second. I know that's harsh, but it's the way I feel.

[conversationpc]

At least gays have picked a lane.

[BobbyinTN]

That's your opinion. Psychiatrist and mental health officials think differently. Trans-sexuals are not a threat to anyone, and they don't "mutilate" themselves. They have surgery. They must go through a process, a mental evaluation, before they can do anything legally.

How do they pass that. Wasn't homosexually still classified a mental illness in the mid 70s.

I'm pretty sure it was. I think a lot of pressure was put on the psychological community to change that distinction, though.

Bingo.

So you think homosexuality is a mental illness?


I've heard people speak about that, "pressure" before but it usually those that are bigoted toward homosexuals anyway.

It was taken off the list because if it's a mental illness, then so is heterosexuality.

[Tito]

I've had two friends who had to have abortions, one was raped, one was on drugs. It still haunts them both to this day, but they know it was the right decision.

The one that was raped - should be allowed to have an abortion. Hmmm.. the one on drugs. Interesting, she lacked capacity due to the drug use. That one I never thought about. That could be a possible exception but that may open a can of worms. I would need to think about that one a little more but I would probably say no.

My daughter was born with FAS (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). I'm glad she wasn't aborted.

I'm assuming he was saying the mother was high/intoxicated when she got laid (which is probably the case 90% of the time of unwanted pregancies). In that case, that's why I would lean to no exception under those rules.

[Tito]

Bobby I agree with you here. Hence my being a Conservative Libertarian. As far as government goes it has no place legislating a persons personal life, in the bedroom, in the womb, etc. Regardless of my personal beliefs on the subject.

I do believe the less government the better, and that includes government intervention in personal lives.

I agree with you except for the "in the womb" comment. I think innocent human life should be protected and believe that is a libertarian principle.

I said regardless of my personal beliefs. I think abortion is horrid, and that it is the taken of a life. But in this case I don't think it the governments right to interfere with a one human life to save another.

I believe in the end God will judge them, and I am satisfied with that.

So if the mother decided she wanted to sell her "fetus" into a foreign slave trade (labor or sexual). You think she should be free to do that? God deosn't want us to let horrid things happen and let him deal the punishment. Ever hear of the flood? Noah? He didn't do all that because he wanted to.

What if there were no God too? I believe there is but lets say the athesist are right for the sake of argument.

[BobbyinTN]

I think the biggest argument has been the "when does life begin" issue. A fetus developes a body, but doesn't start out with one, as a matter of fact, it does just start out as a "clump of cells".

Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that we don't know when life begins. It then makes no sense to err on the side of death for the unborn when there's a chance you may be wrong. Regardless, it's never just a "clump of cells". It's always genetically 100% human.

Conserv, my point is simply this, it's a slippery slope and easy to slide off into the abyss before you know what's happening. Make a law today that forbids a woman to have an abortion and tomorrow laws are made that forbid birth control, masturbation, divorce, and many other things.

It's a slippery slope in the other direction also. We've already seen how euthanasia is beginning to gain steam towards being acceptable and recently there was even a professor from a major university (can't remember who right now but I can find it, if necessary) that advocated the killing of children up until two years of age.

Well, that's just fuckin' crazy and he should be launched into outer space.

Another thing that pisses me off is so many of the people against abortion are also trying to stop gays from adopting. Isn't that defeating the purpose? I've got friends who are adopting unwanted children and the children are thriving. Hell, I'd adopt to stop someone from aborting, but right now the world is too consumed with making me and other homosexuals the "bad guys".

I'd let you have gay marriage before letting them adopt kids.

No one isn't saying you can't buttf-ck your boyfriend, but if you want to get married, marry a girl.

How about bisexuals. They've always confused me. Do they flip a coin in the morning to see which way they go that day? At least gays have picked a lane.

But you see, you shouldn't have the right or the power to "let" anyone adopt or not adopt. There are rules that adoption agencies have, if a couple passes those, they should be able to adopt. It's none of anyone else's business.

[RedWingFan]

Masturbation is a "sin"

I'm fucked.

[BobbyinTN]

I've had two friends who had to have abortions, one was raped, one was on drugs. It still haunts them both to this day, but they know it was the right decision.

The one that was raped - should be allowed to have an abortion. Hmmm.. the one on drugs. Interesting, she lacked capacity due to the drug use. That one I never thought about. That could be a possible exception but that may open a can of worms. I would need to think about that one a little more but I would probably say no.

My daughter was born with FAS (Fetal Alcohol Syndrome). I'm glad she wasn't aborted.

I'm assuming he was saying the mother was high/intoxicated when she got laid (which is probably the case 90% of the time of unwanted pregancies). In that case, that's why I would lean to no exception under those rules.

On drugs so bad she didn't know she was pregnant for weeks.

[Tito]

That's your opinion. Psychiatrist and mental health officials think differently. Trans-sexuals are not a threat to anyone, and they don't "mutilate" themselves. They have surgery. They must go through a process, a mental evaluation, before they can do anything legally.

How do they pass that. Wasn't homosexually still classified a mental illness in the mid 70s.

I'm pretty sure it was. I think a lot of pressure was put on the psychological community to change that distinction, though.

Bingo.

So you think homosexuality is a mental illness?


I've heard people speak about that, "pressure" before but it usually those that are bigoted toward homosexuals anyway.

It was taken off the list because if it's a mental illness, then so is heterosexuality.

Heterosexuality is normal and needed to procreate. Homosexuality is not.