Had an intersting discussion on religion at work today.

[Rhiannon]

The fact that our brain is more complex should be proof enough for you that a higher power, call it what you want, created us, ALL of us . Has nothing to do with religion or culture .

Somehow, that is what I was trying to get at.

However, there will always be an argument against and for any facet of supernatural, spirituality, and the like. You can't prove God's there. You can't prove God's not there. We all have our reasons for whatever we have accepted as our "reality". And since reality is just our personal perception of our surroundings, it makes every experience unique. We are no longer a populous of beings shouting to the stars. And it really doesn't matter who is right or wrong. Because on some levels, I'm sure they're both right and wrong... and congruent at times. Quantum Physics alone tells us that if two things are a possibility, until one of those happens, they both exist.

[iLex]

The fact that our brain is more complex should be proof enough for you that a higher power, call it what you want, created us, ALL of us .

I don't see why. The reason our brain developed the way it did is because more brainpower increased our chances of surviving during our evolution. (which is still going on of course)
It's a very logical process fully understood by mainstream science.

[iceberg]

The fact that our brain is more complex should be proof enough for you that a higher power, call it what you want, created us, ALL of us .

I don't see why. The reason our brain developed the way it did is because more brainpower increased our chances of surviving during our evolution. (which is still going on of course)
It's a very logical process fully understood by mainstream science.

and maybe....just maybe....God wanted it to evolve like that so we can learn to understand our own growth along the way.

[iLex]

and maybe....just maybe....God wanted it to evolve like that so we can learn to understand our own growth along the way.

WOW, your new avatar scared me man
After all this blasphemy I thought I was facing Satan!

[Behshad]

The fact that our brain is more complex should be proof enough for you that a higher power, call it what you want, created us, ALL of us .

I don't see why. The reason our brain developed the way it did is because more brainpower increased our chances of surviving during our evolution. (which is still going on of course)
It's a very logical process fully understood by mainstream science.

Then how come this increase of brainpower was not found in ALL creators and only in humans?

God's existence in this universe is like "Guilty"s presense in court! He exists until proven he doesnt !

No matter what culture and background you come from, there's gotta be some point in your life where you have sat down and wondered about your creator. Not just the parents, but how all of us got here. As I said it has nothing to do with religion, but rather one's personal beliefs and faith. I personaly dont think without believing in our creator we wouldnt have any faith and or beliefs, thus without faith and belief , we're in no way superior to other creators in this world........

[iceberg]

and maybe....just maybe....God wanted it to evolve like that so we can learn to understand our own growth along the way.

WOW, your new avatar scared me man
After all this blasphemy I thought I was facing Satan!

imagine how i feel when i have to get up in the am and face that after a hard night of whatever made it a hard night!

[MartyMoffatt]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then. Or how about the destruction of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. But for that accident, the world would probably now be populated by descendants of T Rex - after all these creatures lived here successfully for many many times the length of time that homo sapiens has been here. That's what conventional science would indicate. Why go through all those hundreds of millions of years of trial and error in evolution just to sweep it all away and plant humans down right at the very end? Again, it seems more logical to me to see humans as just the latest stage in an ongoing process, not the final pinnacle.

Where does religion fit into that school of thought? Or do religious people reject that kind of scientific thinking? I'm not trying to catch anybody out here, just genuinely curious.

Maybe logic doesn't apply when discussing theology. If so I'm out of my depth because logic is all I have to work with.

Marty

[iLex]

Then how come this increase of brainpower was not found in ALL creators and only in humans?

Why would it? The reason we can have this conversation is because we were the first to develop the brain we did. Maybe over time other species will develop a brain more or less the same like ours, and maybe not.
It all depends on the environment species are forced to live and thus adapt to. Every species has it's own specific defense system in balance with it's environment.

God's existence in this universe is like "Guilty"s presense in court!

I guess so, this video explains very good why his existence can't be disproved...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07JvzfO0vOk&fmt=18

He exists until proven he doesnt !

Actually, it would make more sense the other way around ...why believe in something that can't be proved.

No matter what culture and background you come from, there's gotta be some point in your life where you have sat down and wondered about your creator. Not just the parents, but how all of us got here.

It's really not all that mysterious anymore Behshad. I'm sure science has still a lot to learn, they always will , nevertheless learning science will get you as close as you will ever get in finding answers to the big questions of life.
Mainstream science says:
- Big bang
- Abiogenesis (the process from matter to life)
- Evolution
-> Behshad

[conversationpc]

Mainstream science says:
- Big bang
- Abiogenesis (the process from matter to life)
- Evolution
-> Behshad

Mainstream science still has no answer for how the first matter appeared BEFORE the big bang.

[S2M]

Mainstream science says:
- Big bang
- Abiogenesis (the process from matter to life)
- Evolution
-> Behshad

Mainstream science still has no answer for how the first matter appeared BEFORE the big bang.

And religion still hasn't answered the question: IF god is all-powerful, can he make a rock so big and heavy that he, himself, cannot lift?

[artist4perry]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical), a good indicator that we shared the same ancestry a few million years ago, and evolved the few differences between us since then. Or how about the destruction of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. But for that accident, the world would probably now be populated by descendants of T Rex - after all these creatures lived here successfully for many many times the length of time that homo sapiens has been here. That's what conventional science would indicate. Why go through all those hundreds of millions of years of trial and error in evolution just to sweep it all away and plant humans down right at the very end? Again, it seems more logical to me to see humans as just the latest stage in an ongoing process, not the final pinnacle.

Where does religion fit into that school of thought? Or do religious people reject that kind of scientific thinking? I'm not trying to catch anybody out here, just genuinely curious.

Maybe logic doesn't apply when discussing theology. If so I'm out of my depth because logic is all I have to work with.

Marty

God can do anything he wants.........he is God. Even make things out of simmular material. I beleive he made the universe, and all that resides therein. If he wishes things to evolve he will. I do wonder though, where are the transitional bones from one species turning into another? Most have been found to be a fraud, perpetrated by a few scientists for whatever reason they decided to fake them. I would think a scientist would want to rely on truths, most I think do. I don't reject science, just that wich does not make sense to me. Scientist find error in theories all the time.

[RedWingFan]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical)

We also share 68% DNA match with dandilions.

[artist4perry]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical)

We also share 68% DNA match with dandilions.

Cool, I am part flower!

[conversationpc]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical)

We also share 68% DNA match with dandilions.

I was going to say...Sharing a high percentage of DNA with anything is not proof any relation at all.

[artist4perry]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical)

We also share 68% DNA match with dandilions.

I was going to say...Sharing a high percentage of DNA with anything is not proof any relation at all.

As I said, God may have used simmular material. Kind of like baking a cake and a loaf of bread, cake has flour, eggs, milk, etc. Bread uses flour, eggs, milk , etc........!

[iceberg]

How do you reconcile religion with evolution? For instance it is well established now that we share about 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees (ie 95% of our DNA is identical)

We also share 68% DNA match with dandilions.

Cool, I am part flower!

well by now i'm pretty sure i'm sharing my DNA with a little bit of a different plant.

[MartyMoffatt]

God can do anything he wants.........he is God. Even make things out of simmular material. I beleive he made the universe, and all that resides therein. If he wishes things to evolve he will. I do wonder though, where are the transitional bones from one species turning into another? Most have been found to be a fraud, perpetrated by a few scientists for whatever reason they decided to fake them. I would think a scientist would want to rely on truths, most I think do. I don't reject science, just that wich does not make sense to me. Scientist find error in theories all the time.

I agree scientists have to modify and re-evaluate their own theories all the time. This is healthy and all part of the learning curve. Science certainly doesn't have all the answers. But it doesn't profess to either.

However, with regard to the transitional bones, there are remains of at least 50 different species of 'almost human' species identified so far. Some show signs of increased brain size or tool use, indicators of a gradual increase in brain capacity/complexity. Others sow signs of an upright stance, another evolutionary advantage over competitor species. There have been a couple of well known fraudulent 'discoveries' but most of these humanoid bones are genuine. Many of the species became dead ends and didn't evolve any further, but I believe at least one did transition into the physical form we now know as human. But I also believe it was a slow process, not an instant appearance, and I believe it is still going on.

Maybe there was a guiding hand in this process, maybe there wasn't. I can't say. But I am curious as to how the very concept of evolution is viewed by those who truly believe in a god.

Marty

[iceberg]

God can do anything he wants.........he is God.

can he make a rock so big even HE can't lift it?

i used to love that paradox when i was younger as it proved there are things not even God can do. as i got older and started to see how we could well be made in his image, i had to think about how we've progressed.

evolved.

we've changed. we've learned. we've grown. while at one point we couldn't go to the moon, we figured out how. now we're shooting for mars so all we do is build that rock so big we can't lift it. then we figure out how and keep growing.

evolving.

so to me God is whatever *you* need him to be. i'm more science minded than faith minded, but i rely on my faith to get me through the questions science can't answer.

yet.

[S2M]

God can do anything he wants.........he is God.

can he make a rock so big even HE can't lift it?

i used to love that paradox when i was younger as it proved there are things not even God can do. as i got older and started to see how we could well be made in his image, i had to think about how we've progressed.

evolved.

we've changed. we've learned. we've grown. while at one point we couldn't go to the moon, we figured out how. now we're shooting for mars so all we do is build that rock so big we can't lift it. then we figure out how and keep growing.

evolving.

so to me God is whatever *you* need him to be. i'm more science minded than faith minded, but i rely on my faith to get me through the questions science can't answer.

yet.

I asked this same question about 5 posts up.....great minds think alike....

[iceberg]

God can do anything he wants.........he is God.

can he make a rock so big even HE can't lift it?

i used to love that paradox when i was younger as it proved there are things not even God can do. as i got older and started to see how we could well be made in his image, i had to think about how we've progressed.

evolved.

we've changed. we've learned. we've grown. while at one point we couldn't go to the moon, we figured out how. now we're shooting for mars so all we do is build that rock so big we can't lift it. then we figure out how and keep growing.

evolving.

so to me God is whatever *you* need him to be. i'm more science minded than faith minded, but i rely on my faith to get me through the questions science can't answer.

yet.

I asked this same question about 5 posts up.....great minds think alike....

but did you have the same answer?

[artist4perry]

God can do anything he wants.........he is God.

can he make a rock so big even HE can't lift it?

i used to love that paradox when i was younger as it proved there are things not even God can do. as i got older and started to see how we could well be made in his image, i had to think about how we've progressed.

evolved.

we've changed. we've learned. we've grown. while at one point we couldn't go to the moon, we figured out how. now we're shooting for mars so all we do is build that rock so big we can't lift it. then we figure out how and keep growing.

evolving.

so to me God is whatever *you* need him to be. i'm more science minded than faith minded, but i rely on my faith to get me through the questions science can't answer.

yet.

I asked this same question about 5 posts up.....great minds think alike....

but did you have the same answer?

I always said, if God does not give us instant knowledge of all this when we reach heaven, we have all of eternity to ask him. I don't sweat the small stuff. I am because he made me. Good for now! If I am wrong, I am like Rover, dead all over. No problem. If I am right, it is a win, win situation! Good life here, good life there. No worries!

[iceberg]

well like i was saying... if we're created in his image there are TONS of things we can't do today that tomorrow will be 2nd thought at best.

so maybe he can't lift that rock today but he can tomorrow. then make it bigger, then lift again.

*we* do the same thing all the time.

[iLex]

Mainstream science says:
- Big bang
- Abiogenesis (the process from matter to life)
- Evolution
-> Behshad

Mainstream science still has no answer for how the first matter appeared BEFORE the big bang.

You're entering the quantum mechanics domain again without knowing anything about it and neither do I so this is rather pointless.

I do know that adding another element of mystery to it, called god, is not helping either cause the same question counts... where does god come from? Who created him?
And I know you would say (cause you did before) that there was nothing before god cause the bible says so.
The bible says so??? ...a second problem added cause we all know the content of that book was handed over mouth to mouth for centuries, then written down and altered several times throughout history.
Interpreted "black" in one century and "white" in the other and therefore the most unreliable source thinkable!!! Not only that... it's full of miracles, pure magic that no sensible person would ever believe if it would apply on this era.

You're using one unprovable thing to prove another unprovable thing and vice versa ...every religion does that, nevertheless, it's probably the most unreasonable approach thinkable.

[Don]

I believe in a Creator, I just don't believe in the Bible. It's as simple as that. The Bible can sit next to Lord of the rings on my bookshelf. Both discuss the beginning of the universe, good versus evil and other things. The only difference is that one book is older than the other and has caused people to spill blood over it.

[S2M]

I've said it before here, and on BT, and 'The Cooler'...when this discussion would come up...

'The Divine Command Theory'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_theory

Learn it, live it, love it.....

[iLex]

Maybe logic doesn't apply when discussing theology.

That is so true, cause logic is a creative process in the brain that creates a sudden path from A to B but if your religion tells you how to go from A to B, creative thinking is gone and so is logic.

[Enigma869]

well by now i'm pretty sure i'm sharing my DNA with a little bit of a different plant.

You don't say You look like the All-American, church going dude to me I hate to say it dude, but you have a strong resemblance to that nutbag Charlie Manson!


John from Boston

[artist4perry]

I believe in a Creator, I just don't believe in the Bible. It's as simple as that. The Bible can sit next to Lord of the rings on my bookshelf. Both discuss the beginning of the universe, good versus evil and other things. The only difference is that one book is older than the other and has caused people to spill blood over it.

Did the Bible do that, or did people do that? What I have read Jesus calls for peace. He basicly said that if a man slaps you lend him your other cheek. Doesn't sound to me like he called for any violence at all. He said that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Blood thirsty? Not the way I read his teachings. Some choose to do things in his name or in the name of religion, but are far from his teachings. I don't think he would claim them.

[iceberg]

well by now i'm pretty sure i'm sharing my DNA with a little bit of a different plant.

You don't say You look like the All-American, church going dude to me I hate to say it dude, but you have a strong resemblance to that nutbag Charlie Manson!

John from Boston

he is my cousin. wanna come party?

btw - nice nickers.

[Don]

I believe in a Creator, I just don't believe in the Bible. It's as simple as that. The Bible can sit next to Lord of the rings on my bookshelf. Both discuss the beginning of the universe, good versus evil and other things. The only difference is that one book is older than the other and has caused people to spill blood over it.

Did the Bible do that, or did people do that? What I have read Jesus calls for peace. He basicly said that if a man slaps you lend him your other cheek. Doesn't sound to me like he called for any violence at all. He said that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Blood thirsty? Not the way I read his teachings. Some choose to do things in his name or in the name of religion, but are far from his teachings. I don't think he would claim them.

Blood was spilled by what people thought they interpreted from the book.The book is of course an object open to different interpretation and apparently numerous editing over the years.