BackTalk Creator Weighs In:

[strangegrey]

Wiggler?! LOL
I assume you mean Steve A?
What's the reason behind that nickname?

You must never read Jackass Talk. The yahoo fans you were describing earlier actually had pages of "Stevie Awesome Wiggle" threads over there! It was quite nauseating, actually! That was the final straw for me! I hope Andrew breaks the first person's legs who starts one of those moronic threads on this site!!!!!!

John from Boston

Honestly, I lurk there once every few weeks. Read a few threads before getting sickened...and leave....
Had I seen the 'wiggle' thread, It would have had the same effect.

So a great deal happens there that I'm unaware of...

-F

[strangegrey]

As for a forum on journeymusic.com. IMO, it's more of a liability now then an asset. Do you REALLY think that forum is something the band wants people to read who are new to the band? I would have a VERY hard time believing that it is.

Gotta agree here. If I were a first time listener....popping into back talk for the first time, my first impression would be "Holy Shit...is THIS what I'm getting into? Maybe the foreigner boards are better!" LOL!

Seriously speaking...the band is looking to go to (forgive the stupid puns) a 'higher place' or a 'new position'....(I've offically met my gayness quota for the day)...Neal's been quoted as saying that he wants the band to start doing videos and tv spots, etc....translation, they want to break into new markets and build a bigger fan base. No surprise that they're doing europe again.

How many new fans are the band going to win only to freak them out when they arrive at the message board and see a bunch of mental housewives fighting over what JSS is wearing....or doing the 17 billionth 'head to head'...

[donnaplease]

As for a forum on journeymusic.com. IMO, it's more of a liability now then an asset. Do you REALLY think that forum is something the band wants people to read who are new to the band? I would have a VERY hard time believing that it is.

I don't often agree with you, but this is a dead-on statement.

[squirt1]

I never bothered joining. It seemed that the mods were on their own little power trips w/o supervision & clearly Augeri cheerleaders. To accomplish their rah-rah goals they allowed Perry bashing here and there over the years. Hey, ever stop to think that alientaed 70% of Journey's fans. I remember when they jumped on a few of Jeff's posts. Sure enough ,someone told them to back off. Neal,BT is trainwreck that is bad for business.

[Monker]

How many new fans are the band going to win only to freak them out when they arrive at the message board and see a bunch of mental housewives fighting over what JSS is wearing....or doing the 17 billionth 'head to head'...

LOL! EXACTLY..Or, they'll be arguing about Perry rejoining the band to save the future, or how Augeri was fired, or whether or not Augeri used tapes, or a few other topics which seem to be constantly recycled and will be "discussed" as long as there are Journey forums.

This has gone on FOREVER though. I remember back when I owned the mailing list how I used to get so frustrated at Perry fans because they would go on binges of talking about nothing but Perry's hair and butt! I mean, come on! There is NOTHING else that can be talked about? And, how much can REALLY be said about Perry's hair and butt that hasn't already been chatted about? You know, there's a new Bad English album coming out, can't we talk about that instead? LOL.

Even before that, I found out there was a group of Journey fan writers who did fan-fiction porn fantasies about Steve Perry. That's when I decided there was a point where you become TOO CLOSE and you need to back off and realize that it's music that you are a fan of, not necessarily the individuals in the band. When you start looking at yourself and find you have a copy of Perry's birth certificate to prove how old he is, or other things which I *KNOW* are out there, then you are WAY too obsessed with this band and its members. I guess what I am saying is this didn't suddenly appear with BT...it just sorta concentrated it!

[strangegrey]

Even before that, I found out there was a group of Journey fan writers who did fan-fiction porn fantasies about Steve Perry....

I remember these posts on Journey-L...It was right around the time of the Perry FTLOSM tour....where someone was posting these fantasy stories with Perry and Neal...set in medievil times....riding unicorns and knights fighting dragons for journey's honor and....well you get the idea.

I remember at the time going "This is completely effin nuts!"

[JeremyP]

I remember those! lol

In those stories Perry had a crush on Neal and they had a sexual encounter in a cave in an alternate dimension.

[livin2do]

I'm no psychoanalyst or anything, but I'm willing to try a thesis:

The Internet was coming into mainstream popularity. In 1995, when I first had a dial-up connection, there was really only one place to get Journey updates - the Steven Lake Journey Tribute Page. I'm sure others will remember it, too. Somewhere along the way I also discovered the Journey forum. I went to these sites regularly, and that is where I first heard that Journey was regrouping, and recording their reunion album. I could not have been more excited about that.

When Trial By Fire came out, these sites gave fans a place to speak with other fans about the rebirth of Journey. The album was extremely well-received, and Journey exploded back onto the music scene. The band had left in 1987 with scarcely a word about their future plans, so to have them back and about to tour was a long-overdue surprise.

This is where the problem started. The tour that was promised was put on hold, and the band did not so much as address the delay. It came out months later that Steve Perry had hurt himself just after the album came out, but there was no clear communication about what the band had planned next. Much of the information I got at that time were rumors off of the forums and other sites (like MelodicRock.com). Weeks and months passed with no word, and I, for one, became discontented with the lack of information - especially since it would've been easier than ever to get the information out by doing it online.

I do not believe I was the only one. There were plenty of pissed-off people at that point, as I recall. And then, a year and a half later when they finally said what was going on, the word was that Journey had replaced Steve Perry and Steve Smith, and were moving on without them. This pissed people off all the more. It is a wonder that the entire fan base was not alienated by now. The multitude of ways that the band had taken its fans for granted, I thought, was more than Journey would possibly be able to overcome.

But, I gave it a shot - as did many. Early on, I had some pretty harsh feelings about how Steve Augeri did on some of the classics. I used to cringe when he sang the "...in the night..." bit. But, what Augeri might have lacked compared to Perry, he more than made up for in the way he dealt with Journey's fans. He was approachable. He honored the legacy created by Perry, and thanked the crowds for letting him sing for them. Perry wooed his fans with his legendary talent; Augeri did so by being humble and respectful while following in his shoes. When fans would be ardently opposed to even the notion of replacing Steve Perry, I had to voice my support because I appreciated the newfound value the band now seemed to be placing on me as a fan. I was starting to feel connected to Journey again, and a lot of this was all Augeri's doing. I was ready for whatever the band had for me next.

After three years at the helm, Augeri had shown a lot of improvement vocally. Then came Arrival. While it was not a perfect record, I felt it was a much more solid Journey release than either Raised on Radio or Trial by Fire. It sounded like a logical follow-up to Frontiers to me, and Journey was BACK. It was not long after that I published the Castles Burning interview with Herbie Herbert. This answered for me - and for so many fans - many of the questions about what had happened to Journey, and why they were forced to replace Steve Perry.

The Internet was key in this tumultuous time for Journey. I used to take part in so many of the long debates about the change. I was emotionally invested in the success of the band again. When posting on the forums, and later on Back Talk, I used to say I was "fighting the Journey wars."

The band always had a way of getting its fans to love them. The passion in the music stirred powerful feelings for anyone they touched. If you loved Neal Schon's or Steve Smith's playing, fans would defend them when critics wouldn't give them their due. While Steve Perry was reviled by writers, fans worshipped his vocal talents and hung on his every syllable. And, any time Rolling Stone lambasted "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'", Journey fans would respond in unison: "Na na na na na na, na na na na na na!" With the internet, fans were able to respond with a passion that reflected what they had gotten from Journey's music throughout the years.

[*Laura]

This thread was such an interesting read.
I wasn't around when the "Internet Journey" was born,but things have sure changed since...

No one can deny that the Internet has become such a powerful media tool that can influence the fanbase of any band,especially the passionate Journey followers...For someone like me who was "late for the party" ,it was really difficult at the beginning to separate rumors from truth,but I guess I have learned pretty fast to read between the lines...

What still amazes me is how some people can make Journey a matter of life and death,to the point where they waste their real existence in fighting endless virtual wars for their beliefs.
No one should make a band or its members larger than life issues,after all it's only music,and usually bands make their own decisions regardless of what the fans might want or think.Sometimes these decisions echo the fans wishes and maybe that's why some might think that the www comunity has a say in the band's evolution...Funny.

A question for livin2do:have you tried to get another interview with Herbie since 2001?It would be an interesting read,to say the least....

[MartyMoffatt]

Speaking as one of those Mods on BT (albeit only recently) I admit I agree with much of what’s been said here. However, I also think there are a lot of cheap shots being thrown around by a few people and a few generalisations viewed through myopic spectacles.

BT is not perfect – TRUE. It is over moderated – TRUE (although not as much as it is often accused of by people here). It has perhaps more than its fair share of adoring female fans – TRUE. It has a high proportion of trivial threads – TRUE (but then what forum hasn’t?).

All this is true and I wouldn’t dream of denying it. However, focusing only on the negatives seems to have blinkered you to its positives (which I admit may be things that are not of importance to the average MR poster). BT is relatively safe – there is no pornography, bad language, threatening behaviour etc. Trolling, which exists everywhere on the internet (even here), is kept to a minimum there. BT is welcoming to fans of all colours, races, religion or sexual orientation. It is a friendly, sociable place (most of the time) – in fact through BT I have made a number of good personal friends on both sides of the Atlantic, friendships that now extend way beyond the confines of BT. BT is a good place for respectful and courteous discussion about Journey (which believe it or not does appeal to some people).

There is a lot of moderating taking place on BT, probably more than I am comfortable with, and you won’t see me stepping in to close or lock too many threads. However, I do understand the reasoning behind much of it. It is not about exerting power and stamping on any controversy. All the Mods do what they do, voluntarily, with the best interests of the community at heart. They don’t always get it right, but after all they are human (and not incarnations of Hitler).

Bear in mind a couple of things. Firstly, some of the direction for moderation on BT comes from Journey itself. How we interpret that is down to individuals and maybe we are over-zealous at times. Secondly, this site is often the first place new fans will look to find out more about Journey. Many of those fans could be children, although I’m not suggesting that the site should be run exclusively kid friendly. However, a safe, friendly and welcoming site is theoretically more likely to attract young fans or non internet savvy fans than one that is controversial, threatening and intimidating to new posters and full of foul language and soft porn.

Now, before you say it, I know that BT is not exactly a friendly welcoming site at the moment. There are a few very bitter people there, due to events of the past few months, and giving them the freedom (within limits) to vent their frustration/anger/disappointment etc has meant that many of the more sociable forum members have disappeared temporarily.

I think it is a poor generalisation to say that BT only consists of ‘wiggle’ adoring middle-aged female fans. Yes there are a few, because they feel more comfortable on BT than they would somewhere like here (where they would be continuously insulted and victimised). But there are also many other types of fan, male and female, who are capable of good spirited debate. Check out the ‘Colors of the Spirit’ and ‘Castles Burning’ forums in particular for some informative discussion.

There is a lot of bias here against BT, and many MR members delight in saying over and over how they’ve been banned from BT or are now refusing to post there. To those that have actually been banned I would say (not everyone, I might add) – get over it. Stop wallowing in self pity and heaping all the evils of the internet onto BT for having the audacity to ban you. I can’t speak for every case, but in many cases, those people banned from BT were banned because they repeatedly infringed the rules and often deliberately baited the moderators. Some I am sure would be welcomed back if they asked and if they were prepared to accept the rules applied there.

To those that go on and on about a self imposed ban, my question is why? If you no longer want to contribute, fair enough, but in that case why not just leave it alone? If you want the forum to improve, why not become part of the solution instead of perpetuating the problem by bashing it at every opportunity.

I belong to a number of different messageboards, not just Journey or even music related, but I have never seen a perfectly run forum. Every one has to make compromises and is constantly changing (either deliberately or unknowingly) in search of a balance to accommodate its membership. BT, and indeed MR, is no exception. But to effect change you have to be there, not just bleat about it and criticise it from afar.

Marty

[cyndy!]

i notice that BT is not accepting any new registrations. that doesn't seem very friendly or welcoming.

[donnaplease]

Speaking as one of those Mods on BT (albeit only recently) I admit I agree with much of what’s been said here. However, I also think there are a lot of cheap shots being thrown around by a few people and a few generalisations viewed through myopic spectacles.

BT is not perfect – TRUE. It is over moderated – TRUE (although not as much as it is often accused of by people here). It has perhaps more than its fair share of adoring female fans – TRUE. It has a high proportion of trivial threads – TRUE (but then what forum hasn’t?).

All this is true and I wouldn’t dream of denying it. However, focusing only on the negatives seems to have blinkered you to its positives (which I admit may be things that are not of importance to the average MR poster). BT is relatively safe – there is no pornography, bad language, threatening behaviour etc. Trolling, which exists everywhere on the internet (even here), is kept to a minimum there. BT is welcoming to fans of all colours, races, religion or sexual orientation. It is a friendly, sociable place (most of the time) – in fact through BT I have made a number of good personal friends on both sides of the Atlantic, friendships that now extend way beyond the confines of BT. BT is a good place for respectful and courteous discussion about Journey (which believe it or not does appeal to some people).

There is a lot of moderating taking place on BT, probably more than I am comfortable with, and you won’t see me stepping in to close or lock too many threads. However, I do understand the reasoning behind much of it. It is not about exerting power and stamping on any controversy. All the Mods do what they do, voluntarily, with the best interests of the community at heart. They don’t always get it right, but after all they are human (and not incarnations of Hitler).

Bear in mind a couple of things. Firstly, some of the direction for moderation on BT comes from Journey itself. How we interpret that is down to individuals and maybe we are over-zealous at times. Secondly, this site is often the first place new fans will look to find out more about Journey. Many of those fans could be children, although I’m not suggesting that the site should be run exclusively kid friendly. However, a safe, friendly and welcoming site is theoretically more likely to attract young fans or non internet savvy fans than one that is controversial, threatening and intimidating to new posters and full of foul language and soft porn.

Now, before you say it, I know that BT is not exactly a friendly welcoming site at the moment. There are a few very bitter people there, due to events of the past few months, and giving them the freedom (within limits) to vent their frustration/anger/disappointment etc has meant that many of the more sociable forum members have disappeared temporarily.

I think it is a poor generalisation to say that BT only consists of ‘wiggle’ adoring middle-aged female fans. Yes there are a few, because they feel more comfortable on BT than they would somewhere like here (where they would be continuously insulted and victimised). But there are also many other types of fan, male and female, who are capable of good spirited debate. Check out the ‘Colors of the Spirit’ and ‘Castles Burning’ forums in particular for some informative discussion.

There is a lot of bias here against BT, and many MR members delight in saying over and over how they’ve been banned from BT or are now refusing to post there. To those that have actually been banned I would say (not everyone, I might add) – get over it. Stop wallowing in self pity and heaping all the evils of the internet onto BT for having the audacity to ban you. I can’t speak for every case, but in many cases, those people banned from BT were banned because they repeatedly infringed the rules and often deliberately baited the moderators. Some I am sure would be welcomed back if they asked and if they were prepared to accept the rules applied there.

To those that go on and on about a self imposed ban, my question is why? If you no longer want to contribute, fair enough, but in that case why not just leave it alone? If you want the forum to improve, why not become part of the solution instead of perpetuating the problem by bashing it at every opportunity.

I belong to a number of different messageboards, not just Journey or even music related, but I have never seen a perfectly run forum. Every one has to make compromises and is constantly changing (either deliberately or unknowingly) in search of a balance to accommodate its membership. BT, and indeed MR, is no exception. But to effect change you have to be there, not just bleat about it and criticise it from afar.

Marty

Hi Marty! You have made many good points above. I have only recently joined the BT forum. The main reason is that when the announcement was made, I thought there would be an opportunity to move beyond some of the pointless ramblings of a few individuals. It appears that the general attitude has changed there from one of glowing admiration and positive vibes to criticism of official decisions made and personal attacks. And a turd by any other name still stinks (just because certain four-letter words aren't being used doesn't mean people aren't being attacked). That would be okay, if it weren't so obviously one-sided. A Journey forum, run by the official website, should be about Journey, not about one individual. Like I said, I have no problem with people who disapprove of the decisions the band made--hell, I think they made a bad choice in '98. But what I see is that those people who are talking about self-imposed bans and the like are those that may have been lamblasted for having an opinion different than that of the 'wiggle housewives', and made to feel they are unwelcome. A perfect example of this is the way that Lula is treated. It appears to me, that (at least prior to the recent announcement) much of the meaningful discussion about Journey is buried so deep within all the "positive vibes" BS that it's too hard to find. Now, as a 38-year old wife and mother, I enjoy the discussions about Steve Perry's hair and butt (sorry, Monker), but when I want to engage in that, I find another forum that is dedicated to that (All Things Steve Perry is a GREAT site for that!). If I want to learn about Journey, I come here. I'm not crazy about some of the language and graphics here, but I take the good with the bad, and must admit that most of what I've learned about the band, I've learned here.

I have been recently encouraged somewhat by some of the BACKTALK threads at BT, but I would like to see that site become more about Journey, and less about one very controversial individual.

[yulog]

[NealIsGod]

I don't understand why anyone cares about that forum. It is what it is, I like this one 1,000 times better, so I stay here. I only read it when someone refers me to a post or a thread.

[ohsherrie]

Great post Donnaplease.

I agree with everything you said. The old Precious Times forum on that site was the only place I ever posted there because I was only interested in Journey with Steve Perry. I rarely participated in many of the Hair and Butt threads unless it was to joke back and forth with a particular poster in the thread that had been hijacked for that purpose. In fact, I remember Perryfaithful and I having some gripe sessions because it was so impossible to engage in any serious discussion on there without some of the "ladies" there hijacking the thread for that purpose. Then invariably, someone from the GF would have to jump into the thread and make sure Augeri was getting equal time for some attribute that they admire about him. I got so sick of the "Pirate Boy" vs "Red Leather Pants" that I just gave up. I'm not saying I didn't want to argue Perry vs Augeri, because I was more than glad to compare their vocal abilities, but all the comparison that was allowed was about their hair, butts, or clothing.

[MartyMoffatt]

i notice that BT is not accepting any new registrations. that doesn't seem very friendly or welcoming.

I believe that's due to some technical hitches, not a policy decision.

Marty

[NealIsGod]

i notice that BT is not accepting any new registrations. that doesn't seem very friendly or welcoming.

I believe that's due to some technical hitches, not a policy decision.

Can't handle the 10 gained for 1 lost traffic that JSS is delivering.

[Jeremey]

My problem with BackTalk is this....Why does the band have an official forum? I could care less if people want to talk about Steve Augeri or his pants or how they heard "When You Love A Woman" while getting a moustache wax - But why is that what the band's so-called "Official" forum is about? The fact that there is a forum attached to the band's official website makes many first-timers excited about the band think that this is what the band wants, or is all about. It took me several years to realize the so-called official forum was NOT for fans of the band, but for people who fit in a very narrow catagory. The psychosis exhibited by a lot of those people in the past 8 months is clearly evident to anyone popping into that place for the first time, and yet this is what is so-called "endorsed" by the band.

Why doesn't the band just eliminate backtalk and allow Marty or someone else to set up "Back Talk" on a completely separate site from the band? The way it's been set up - especially over the past 2 years or so - makes it look like the band endorses a very unfriendly place. And before people jump me and say "Oh, MR.com is unfriendly, people make personal attacks here, blah blah blah - " I understand that - My point is that this forum isn't sponsored by the band, and it very clearly is a fan-sponsored site with a distinct personality.

[larryfromnextdoor]

i notice that BT is not accepting any new registrations. that doesn't seem very friendly or welcoming.

I believe that's due to some technical hitches, not a policy decision.

Can't handle the 10 gained for 1 lost traffic that JSS is delivering.

very funny

[donnaplease]

i notice that BT is not accepting any new registrations. that doesn't seem very friendly or welcoming.

I believe that's due to some technical hitches, not a policy decision.

Can't handle the 10 gained for 1 lost traffic that JSS is delivering.

True dat.

[Eric]

As for a forum on journeymusic.com. IMO, it's more of a liability now then an asset. Do you REALLY think that forum is something the band wants people to read who are new to the band? I would have a VERY hard time believing that it is.

How it stands now? Absolutely not. I'm just assuming that it settles down.

I actually LIKE the "new" BACKTALK sub-forum...it seems to be run more like Sky's old forum. Haven't seen the limits on how much they are going to allow there tho.

You haven't seen the limits?
I loved it before the official statement came out. Now, I see that there is definitely a pro-Augeri bias from certain mods, and that is bad for business for Journey. Someone from the band needs to clean that up.

CJ is one of the few people I trust on BT. She seems genuine and logical. You can disagree with her and not end up being banned, unlike a few others.

[MartyMoffatt]

To put things in context, I’ve just done a quick check of the most recent threads on the various BT forums, looking for those which are specifically about Augeri or about comparing him with Perry and/or Soto. Below are my findings – it’s just a quick tally as I haven’t read every single post in every thread. However, the results might surprise you:-

General Forum - 14 out of the last 50 threads
Dixie Highway - 2 out of the last 50 threads
Ticket Network Central - 0 out of 16 threads
Precious Time - 6 out of the last 50 threads
JP Street Team - 0 out of 31 threads
Castles Burning - 0 out of 36 threads
People & Places - 1 out of 50 threads
Colors of the Spirit – 0 out of 27 threads
Backtalk - 25 out of the last 50 threads (and that’s to be expected, given that BackTalk was activated just before the ‘announcement’.)

In total that is 48 threads out of 360, or around 13%. Now, I admit there may be other threads subsequently hi-jacked to become about Augeri, and some of the threads may be long running with a disproportionate amount of activity, but it does indicate to me at least that getting hung up on the idea that BT is only about one person is both factually incorrect and a distorted viewpoint. 'Wiggle' threads are a small proportion of all the activity taking place there.

By the way, this compares with, in Precious Time alone, there are more than 30 out of the last 50 threads specifically about Perry.

Marty

[Jeremey]

To put things in context, I’ve just done a quick check of the most recent threads on the various BT forums, looking for those which are specifically about Augeri or about comparing him with Perry and/or Soto. Below are my findings – it’s just a quick tally as I haven’t read every single post in every thread. However, the results might surprise you:-

General Forum - 14 out of the last 50 threads
Dixie Highway - 2 out of the last 50 threads
Ticket Network Central - 0 out of 16 threads
Precious Time - 6 out of the last 50 threads
JP Street Team - 0 out of 31 threads
Castles Burning - 0 out of 36 threads
People & Places - 1 out of 50 threads
Colors of the Spirit – 0 out of 27 threads
Backtalk - 25 out of the last 50 threads (and that’s to be expected, given that BackTalk was activated just before the ‘announcement’.)

In total that is 48 threads out of 360, or around 13%. Now, I admit there may be other threads subsequently hi-jacked to become about Augeri, and some of the threads may be long running with a disproportionate amount of activity, but it does indicate to me at least that getting hung up on the idea that BT is only about one person is both factually incorrect and a distorted viewpoint. 'Wiggle' threads are a small proportion of all the activity taking place there.

By the way, this compares with, in Precious Time alone, there are more than 30 out of the last 50 threads specifically about Perry.

Marty

Honestly, though - Why would ANY thread be about Augeri vs Perry vs Soto from the Dixie Highway, Ticket Network, JP Street Team, Castles Burning, People & Places, or Colors of the Spirit forums? To come up with a more realistic number, I think you'd have to stick to the general forum alone, since the "Backtalk" forum is 100% about Augeri vs Perry vs Soto anyways.

[Enigma869]

Bear in mind a couple of things. Firstly, some of the direction for moderation on BT comes from Journey itself. How we interpret that is down to individuals and maybe we are over-zealous at times. Secondly, this site is often the first place new fans will look to find out more about Journey. Many of those fans could be children, although I’m not suggesting that the site should be run exclusively kid friendly. However, a safe, friendly and welcoming site is theoretically more likely to attract young fans or non internet savvy fans than one that is controversial, threatening and intimidating to new posters and full of foul language and soft porn.

To those that go on and on about a self imposed ban, my question is why? If you no longer want to contribute, fair enough, but in that case why not just leave it alone? If you want the forum to improve, why not become part of the solution instead of perpetuating the problem by bashing it at every opportunity.

Marty

Marty...

Because I'm the only one on this site who talks about my "self-imposed" ban, I'll assume your comments are directed at me. If you check my postings here on MR, you'll see that I've NEVER EVER EVER, one single time started a thread about BT! That said, I will certainly voice my opinion, as loudly as I can, on this site, when I see BT mentioned, and I have an opinion! I think I've said on numerous occassions that I'd like to see BT be a place where Journey fans are represented, beyond the desperate, obsessive, forty somethings that lust after "Stevie Awesome"! Unfortunately, the mods on that site (and I'm not talking about you, because I don't think you became a mod until after I stopped posting there, so I have no knowledge of your style over there), have proven time and again that BT is only about the nonsense threads. If you're wondering why I actually have an opinion and dare voice it...I can answer that quite simply. I am a Journey fan and believe that Journey's "official" website should represent all of its fans, and not just about 10 of them! Honestly, if BT were not Journey's "official" website (i.e. sanctioned by the band), I wouldn't say a word about the site, and wouldn't even have an opinion on the nonsense that is BT!

You make the point that BT is a welcoming place for all fans. I would vehemently disagree with that statement. To be honest with you, when I first signed up at BT, I was absolutely stunned how hostile of an environment it was if the name "Steve Perry" was even mentioned. I thought I was missing something. Then when I watched Journey carry on, without Perry, singing only songs that Perry made famous, I thought..."Wow...talk about the ultimate hypocrisy". All I ever heard over there is "screw Perry" and "we don't need Perry" and "Journey existed before Perry", and "they exist after Perry", and it all seemed to be okay with the mods. My issue even then wasn't that the mods allowed any attacks on Perry, because honestly, I laugh at some of the stuff I see posted here, about Perry (The Pelican). My issue was that it was sooooooo one-sided, and there wasn't even any room for anyone else to offer a differing viewpoint! That site was ultimately taken over by about 10 people, who offered the same mindless postings, day, after day, after day! To take it a step further, if the mindless postings weren't enough, these clowns would then proceed to spend their entire day "bumping" their same mindless threads, so those were the only topics that ever appeared at the top of the GF. I know you say there is some more interesting discussion on that site, but, as another poster already stated here...you can't find any of it, because it's buried in the moronic threads!

The final thing I'll say is that I've heard this ridiculous argument from mods in the past that say "What about the children who might visit BT", and my response has always been the same....ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? I know BT likes to hang their hat on "Hey we have no porn here", and I'll even acquiesce to you on that point! That said, I can tell you that I surely wouldn't want any of my children reading obsessive women, talking about Augeri's body parts (And let's not forget that Augeri is a married man, as far as I know), and what they want to do to these parts! I find it all nauseating! I just think if BT wants to brag about being the world's moral compass, the mods on that site should read some of the postings over there, a bit more closely. The reality is that many Journey fans may not find what's being posted on that board as moral or appropriate, simply because there are no naked pictures posted.

One final note...you mention BT gets bashed on this site (and in my opinion, rightfully so, until someone takes the reins over there and straightens the place out). You're absolutely correct that BT gets bashed here, but, what you most conveniently forgot to mention is that it's a two way street! Andrew's site is CONSTANTLY lambasted on that site. I've read more than my share of postings on BT, over the years, that said what a horrible site this is and what vapid souls anyone who posts here is! The only reason I ever even heard of this site was because I read constant bashings about it on BT! At least I can say one positive thing happened, because of my involvement with BT! Happy New Year!

John from Boston

[MartyMoffatt]

Honestly, though - Why would ANY thread be about Augeri vs Perry vs Soto from the Dixie Highway, Ticket Network, JP Street Team, Castles Burning, People & Places, or Colors of the Spirit forums? To come up with a more realistic number, I think you'd have to stick to the general forum alone, since the "Backtalk" forum is 100% about Augeri vs Perry vs Soto anyways.

OK, but even just taking General Forum in isolation, the proportion of Augeri oriented threads is still less than 1 in 3. That's hardly the overwhelming bias that some people would have you believe.

Marty

[MartyMoffatt]

Marty...

Because I'm the only one on this site who talks about my "self-imposed" ban, I'll assume your comments are directed at me. If you check my postings here on MR, you'll see that I've NEVER EVER EVER, one single time started a thread about BT! That said, I will certainly voice my opinion, as loudly as I can, on this site, when I see BT mentioned, and I have an opinion! I think I've said on numerous occassions that I'd like to see BT be a place where Journey fans are represented, beyond the desperate, obsessive, forty somethings that lust after "Stevie Awesome"! Unfortunately, the mods on that site (and I'm not talking about you, because I don't think you became a mod until after I stopped posting there, so I have no knowledge of your style over there), have proven time and again that BT is only about the nonsense threads. If you're wondering why I actually have an opinion and dare voice it...I can answer that quite simply. I am a Journey fan and believe that Journey's "official" website should represent all of its fans, and not just about 10 of them! Honestly, if BT were not Journey's "official" website (i.e. sanctioned by the band), I wouldn't say a word about the site, and wouldn't even have an opinion on the nonsense that is BT!

My comments about self imposed bans were not directed specifically about you, although they did include you. I’ve seen numerous posts from at least two or three others repeatedly stating that they don’t post on BT any more, and then following it up with the same old arguments why. I have to say that at least your arguments are eloquently expressed.

You make the point that BT is a welcoming place for all fans. I would vehemently disagree with that statement. To be honest with you, when I first signed up at BT, I was absolutely stunned how hostile of an environment it was if the name "Steve Perry" was even mentioned. I thought I was missing something. Then when I watched Journey carry on, without Perry, singing only songs that Perry made famous, I thought..."Wow...talk about the ultimate hypocrisy". All I ever heard over there is "screw Perry" and "we don't need Perry" and "Journey existed before Perry", and "they exist after Perry", and it all seemed to be okay with the mods. My issue even then wasn't that the mods allowed any attacks on Perry, because honestly, I laugh at some of the stuff I see posted here, about Perry (The Pelican). My issue was that it was sooooooo one-sided, and there wasn't even any room for anyone else to offer a differing viewpoint! That site was ultimately taken over by about 10 people, who offered the same mindless postings, day, after day, after day! To take it a step further, if the mindless postings weren't enough, these clowns would then proceed to spend their entire day "bumping" their same mindless threads, so those were the only topics that ever appeared at the top of the GF. I know you say there is some more interesting discussion on that site, but, as another poster already stated here...you can't find any of it, because it's buried in the moronic threads!

I can’t really comment on the apparent anti-Perry stance prior to my time on BT, although I have heard much mention of Perryheads hijacking threads in very much the same way that Augeriheads are currently being accused of doing so. The simple fact is that the ‘official’ Journey site will always be oriented towards the ‘current’ lineup, whatever that may be, and too many threads about past members will obviously detract from the message the band want to portray.

In time, I am sure the Augeri threads will be consigned to a sub-forum (eg Precious Time) so that the main forum can do its PR job for the JSS fronted band. It definitely doesn’t belittle Augeri’s or Perry’s contributions to Journey – it’s just a means (perhaps not a very subtle one, granted) of encouraging positive discussion about the current lineup.

The final thing I'll say is that I've heard this ridiculous argument from mods in the past that say "What about the children who might visit BT", and my response has always been the same....ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? I know BT likes to hang their hat on "Hey we have no porn here", and I'll even acquiesce to you on that point! That said, I can tell you that I surely wouldn't want any of my children reading obsessive women, talking about Augeri's body parts (And let's not forget that Augeri is a married man, as far as I know), and what they want to do to these parts! I find it all nauseating! I just think if BT wants to brag about being the world's moral compass, the mods on that site should read some of the postings over there, a bit more closely. The reality is that many Journey fans may not find what's being posted on that board as moral or appropriate, simply because there are no naked pictures posted.

If you read my post you’ll notice that I didn’t say the forum should be run exclusively kid friendly. It’s a rock forum. However, among Journey’s large fanbase only a small proportion are internet savvy and active forum users. A great many others (and that does include children) will stumble across BT while browsing the net looking for Journey information. They won’t all be as thick skinned as we are. Just imagine the impression they’d get if they posted something quite innocently and got a response from someone like Dean or Mcneil (or any one of a dozen others) telling them to ‘fuck off…’

I agree with you about some of the other inappropriate threads.

One final note...you mention BT gets bashed on this site (and in my opinion, rightfully so, until someone takes the reins over there and straightens the place out). You're absolutely correct that BT gets bashed here, but, what you most conveniently forgot to mention is that it's a two way street! Andrew's site is CONSTANTLY lambasted on that site. I've read more than my share of postings on BT, over the years, that said what a horrible site this is and what vapid souls anyone who posts here is! The only reason I ever even heard of this site was because I read constant bashings about it on BT! At least I can say one positive thing happened, because of my involvement with BT! Happy New Year!

John from Boston

Please point me to any post in the last couple of months (my tenure on BT) which has bashed MR in the way you indicated. I have not seen a single instance of that recently, and if you point it out to me I’ll be happy to deal with it.

A few months ago (when the tapegate arguments were at their height) there was a lot of tit-for-tat bashing on both sides and neither forum came out of that with any credit. Since then, however, virtually all the bashing seems to be pretty much one sided, despite repeated attempts by Andrew to curtail it.

Marty

[strangegrey]

Speaking as one of those Mods on BT (albeit only recently) I admit I agree with much of what’s been said here. However, I also think there are a lot of cheap shots being thrown around by a few people and a few generalisations viewed through myopic spectacles.

Marty, as I've already stated, I'm not a fan of generalizations either....but in this particular case, you can't deny the effect that the discussion now has legs. People are actually talking in depth about the disfunctionality of BT...something that I've waited for a good 5-7 years to see happen.

Is every women poster at back talk a sexually frustrated internet stalker, perry-jihadist, augeri throat slicer or a JSS-assassin? Is every moderator at back talker a power-abusing, power-hungry demon? No....but the fact of the matter is that BT is *very* much a mob. Mob-rules apply over there. You're not willing to turn around and tell CJ or any other mod "This place is disfunctional...we need to change it" and no one currently posting at back talk has the balls to question the job that moderators are doing at BT....because if that happens the poster is quickly silenced and the post itself disappears. Tell me thats healthy!?!

BT is not perfect – TRUE. It is over moderated – TRUE (although not as much as it is often accused of by people here). It has perhaps more than its fair share of adoring female fans – TRUE. It has a high proportion of trivial threads – TRUE (but then what forum hasn’t?).

I wont argue with you there...but trust me, there isn't a forum out there where people do H2H for the 18 billionth time. How many times are you going to pit Seperate Ways against Dont Stop Believin before it gets rediculous? 3, 4? These H2H threads have been going on for YEARS!!!! They were getting old back when I left.

Now is it right to critique a board for it's quirkiness. No. If H2H was my biggest complaint...I'd still be an active poster over at BT. The fact of the matter is that H2H is just another symptom and/or explaination of the disfunctional nature of the place.

So in this case, we're talking about two different things. The trivial threads are a result of the 2 things I mention which ruined the place....The fact of the matter is that H2H is done over there because this is the one way the mob can argue over things without getting the Meanie-treatment.

All this is true and I wouldn’t dream of denying it. However, focusing only on the negatives seems to have blinkered you to its positives (which I admit may be things that are not of importance to the average MR poster). BT is relatively safe – there is no pornography, bad language, threatening behaviour etc. Trolling, which exists everywhere on the internet (even here), is kept to a minimum there....BT is a good place for respectful and courteous discussion about Journey (which believe it or not does appeal to some people).

OK, Now you're grasping at straws. As I mentioned before...the job of a moderator is to step in only when things get beyond that of civil...reset the balance and then step back away from things. The above statement is a desperate justification for extreme over-moderation...which is not necessary. There are plenty of less-moderated forums that exist without child-molesters. The above 'bad things' you mention can be filtered out of back talk with far less moderation. The fact of the matter is that the extra moderation sounds like it is now justified by fear-mongering.

There is a lot of moderating taking place on BT, probably more than I am comfortable with, and you won’t see me stepping in to close or lock too many threads. However, I do understand the reasoning behind much of it. It is not about exerting power and stamping on any controversy. All the Mods do what they do, voluntarily, with the best interests of the community at heart. They don’t always get it right, but after all they are human (and not incarnations of Hitler).

Marty, respectifully you missed my point above. How long have you been a mod over at BT? Were you a poster prior to becoming a mod? Chances are, you were indoctrinated with the way the mob runs before you were even a moderator. You're simply acting out the role that you feel is apropriate for the given society.

Bear in mind a couple of things. Firstly, some of the direction for moderation on BT comes from Journey itself. How we interpret that is down to individuals and maybe we are over-zealous at times. Secondly, this site is often the first place new fans will look to find out more about Journey. Many of those fans could be children, although I’m not suggesting that the site should be run exclusively kid friendly. However, a safe, friendly and welcoming site is theoretically more likely to attract young fans or non internet savvy fans than one that is controversial, threatening and intimidating to new posters and full of foul language and soft porn.

You're not going to get arguments from me...I know there's a certain amount of direction from the band. The problem lies with your interpretation...as you've already stated. Nasty posters have been allowed to continue at BT, because they're voices are in-line with either the band or over-zealous mods...or they're friendly with the mods. On the other hand, civil conversation, has been repeatedly squealched....because of it's perceived potential...

The fact of the matter is that you need to look at the RESULTS of your hard work at severe-moderation of Back Talk (and when I mean, your, I really mean the mods in general).

Have you really accomplished what you feel your job function exists for? Sure, you've stamped out kiddy-porn and identity-theives. But I would argue that the over-execution of moderation would accomplish this task no better or worse than limited moderation.

So really what you're job exists for, is to stamp out extremely nasty behavior on the part of posters.

Have you done that?!! Absolutely not, I say...and there's no denying that. BT is one of the nastiest band forums on the internet....it's reputation is legendary. You say the wrong thing there, and you're either verbally attacked by a den of ferocious housewives or you're whacked by a moderator.

Moderation at backtalk has more-so shaped the society there...than let it develop....

Now, before you say it, I know that BT is not exactly a friendly welcoming site at the moment. There are a few very bitter people there, due to events of the past few months, and giving them the freedom (within limits) to vent their frustration/anger/disappointment etc has meant that many of the more sociable forum members have disappeared temporarily.

Again, and I'm sorry to sound acusatory...I'm speaking generally of moderators...this is a result of your moderation. Pro-Augeri speak had been favored to a fault there...to the point where you could respectfully say something in favor of Perry and you got your head bitten off or worse, banned....but you could verbally attack someone in tremendously heinous fassion, just so long as you did it carrying the Augeri flag into battle.

Now, the tides have changed. Neal and Deeno to some extent has made anti-augeri statements on this very website....so you as moderators, are forced to eat your words.

You now have to enforce a pro-JSS adgenda at BT...and squealch the very mob that you created through your actions.

I wish you well...

I think it is a poor generalisation to say that BT only consists of ‘wiggle’ adoring middle-aged female fans. Yes there are a few, because they feel more comfortable on BT than they would somewhere like here (where they would be continuously insulted and victimised). But there are also many other types of fan, male and female, who are capable of good spirited debate. Check out the ‘Colors of the Spirit’ and ‘Castles Burning’ forums in particular for some informative discussion.

Marty. I created Castles Burning. I know what exists there...and frankly, I could conceivably be a good contributor there....because I don't feel CB is the problem. The problem exists that I would be contributing to an overall forum that I originally creted...that has turned into a truly disgraceful place....It's too painful.

....Some I am sure would be welcomed back if they asked and if they were prepared to accept the rules applied there.

There's catch, eh? I'm sure people that really want to come back and conform to the gulag can do so. The fact of the matter is that they'd rather not...the rules of the game aren't very fair.

To those that go on and on about a self imposed ban, my question is why? If you no longer want to contribute, fair enough, but in that case why not just leave it alone? If you want the forum to improve, why not become part of the solution instead of perpetuating the problem by bashing it at every opportunity.

My perspective is unique. As I stated already, I created the place...then watched it taken over by mentally-irregular housewives and moderators willing to let them. I'm voicing an opinion now, because I feel the time is right.

Not only have things appeared to have gotten worse, to the point where people are talking about it...but the band has made a change which actually directly affects the way with which BT moderation can be exercised...and perhaps this might help bring about some change over there.

[Jeremey]

I still think the purpose of a forum should not be that of a "PR tool" which is what BT is always advertised as. Forums aren't PR tools by their very nature. To say this era is the only one that should be discussed, or no one should have criticisms about this or that just leads to the overmoderation and gestapo feel of the whole project. Keep an updated and viable website for a PR tool. Do some more interviews for PR. Get a new song on a sound track or in a tv show for PR. Hire a publicist and get some photos in some papers and magazines. But don't create a discussion forum only to sing praises of one aspect of the band - That's always going to backfire, as evidenced by the band's own aversion to the site.

[SteveForever]

I still think the purpose of a forum should not be that of a "PR tool" which is what BT is always advertised as. Forums aren't PR tools by their very nature. To say this era is the only one that should be discussed, or no one should have criticisms about this or that just leads to the overmoderation and gestapo feel of the whole project. Keep an updated and viable website for a PR tool. Do some more interviews for PR. Get a new song on a sound track or in a tv show for PR. Hire a publicist and get some photos in some papers and magazines. But don't create a discussion forum only to sing praises of one aspect of the band - That's always going to backfire, as evidenced by the band's own aversion to the site.

This forum was definitely used as a "PR tool," JSS was praised as a God on here for months. And regarding what should be discussed= anything that was brought up positive regarding Perry or Augeri over here was grounds for disembowelment. Everything else I agree with you, but this site definitely accomplished what Journey wanted. And now that the mission has been successful.......??? Well we'll just have to see what #1 poster decides to do with his time.

[Jeremey]

This forum was definitely used as a "PR tool," JSS was praised as a God on here for months. And regarding what should be discussed= anything that was brought up positive regarding Perry or Augeri over here was grounds for disembowelment. Everything else I agree with you, but this site definitely accomplished what Journey wanted. And now that the mission has been successful.......??? Well we'll just have to see what #1 poster decides to do with his time.

The only issue I take with your stance is that this forum is not a band sponsored forum. Granted, the band used Andrew's resources for public relations, but essentially that's what Andrew does for a living, it's kind of like Journey going to Rolling Stone or Spin magazine. This forum is a fan site, it's not sanctioned by the band, nor does the band or their employees control what should or shouldn't be said on this forum.