Valory and Smith Sued by Schon and Cain Mar. 2020

[Memorex]

or they just don't give a damn.

Mostly this.

[onmyjrny]

Please, oh please share with us exactly what they would gain by making this all up and creating a publicity stunt. I'm anxiously waiting.

You honestly think airing the band's dirty laundry and financial arrangements, while also announcing that their longtime bassist and drummer have been fired for trying to steal the band's name somehow increases ticket sales? Do you even read what is taking place on Facebook regarding this mess?

Here's one quote that I picked random.

"Sad to see one of my favorite bands end like this".

No one, and I mean no one with half a brain thinks this is a net positive. The die hard fans, like us, know all about the drama around Journey. Most people do not. So they don't look at it like a new beginning with new members. They look at like a death nail, or they just don't give a damn.

IMO, it is all about the money. JC and NS wives are obviously addicted to it and ticket sales may not be what they hoped. They are getting free publicity through Rolling Stone and TMZ among other sources. They are getting their name back in the press. What do they care about airing these legal agreements that happened back in the 1990s at this point? After Tapegate and all the ridiculous reality show crap NS pulled with his wife the legacy was broken for me. Then JC's wife's ramblings made me really see what a mess this band is. They are advertising the crap out of the September show date here because there are still tons of tickets available. It will be interesting to see what happens to ticket sales now.

By publicity stunt, I am not saying this is not a legal court case at this point. But I think they are using the court system in a way to get in the public eye. With SP and HH siding with RV and SS, it brings more WTF into the equation. NS is like a son to HH.

I side with Barnum...no such thing as bad publicity for an entertainer.

[SoonerThunder]

What if SP put Ss and RV up to this to get the name back, or at least stop Neal and Jon from using it?

Per the Rolling Stone interview, he’s none too happy with either of them

[ebake02]

What if SP put Ss and RV up to this to get the name back, or at least stop Neal and Jon from using it?

Per the Rolling Stone interview, he’s none too happy with either of them

I really can’t picture that happening, Perry has just as much to lose with this mess as Schon and Cain do. Perry’s lawyers set him up very well financially when he left the last time so why would he mess with that and risk losing it all in the inevitable court battle. Stopping Schon and Cain from using the name would also stop the gravy train paychecks that he’s still getting.

[brywool]

If you read that legal document all the way through, it looks like Herbie and Perry voted with Smitty and Valory to make Smith President and Valory Secretary of Nightmare. Cain didn't vote. Neal didn't show up. TO ME this indicates that the organization is unhappy with the Schon/Cain circus that's been going on over the past few years. If I was in a BUSINESS VENTURE with these guys at the top, acting as they have been, I'd definitely be concerned and definitely try to put somebody else in charge of things, at least short term. They're probably worried about Cain and Schon driving the band into the ground as seemed to be happening last year. Now Cain and Schon are suing them. However, there's a majority vote by the board members that puts Smith as pres and Valory as Secretary. It's already been voted on, so I'm not sure how Jon and Neal can fight that. It seems that Perry, Smith, Valory, and Herbie are in charge of Nightmare.

Edit: Ah, but it's Elmo that owns the 'Journey' name, ok. Still, not sure why C&S didn't also sue Perry & Herbie here. And it sounds like those 4 are now in control of Nightmare, which is a pretty big deal as it's such a huge part of the Journey machine.

Some of the writing in the document is pretty dopey "...They will be replaced with other very talented musicians. Journey will continue touring and performing for their millions of fans around the world." pssh, really? Sounds like a Craigslist ad for new members...

And SP got 50% of the first post Journey tour and album net? wow.

[onmyjrny]

If you read that legal document all the way through, it looks like Herbie and Perry voted with Smitty and Valory to make Smith President and Valory Secretary. Cain didn't vote. Neal didn't show up. TO ME this indicates that the organization is unhappy with the Schon/Cain circus that's been going on over the past few years. Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but if I was in a BUSINESS VENTURE with these guys at the top, acting as they have been, I'd definitely be concerned and definitely try to put somebody else in charge of things, at least short term. Now Cain and Schon are suing them. However, there's a majority vote by the board members that puts Smith as pres and Valory as Secretary. It's already been voted on, so I'm not sure how Jon and Neal can fight that. It seems that Perry, Smith, Valory, and Herbie are in charge of Nightmare.

Edit: Ah, but it's Elmo that owns the 'Journey' name, ok. Still, not sure why C&S didn't also sue Perry & Herbie here.

And SP got 50% of the first post Journey tour and album net? wow.

I kind of skimmed the document; haven't had a lot of time to sit down and read. But what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I used to think JC was the smart one with the common sense but not so sure about this now. Herbie was really clear in his interview many years ago what he thought of JC. It is so weird how alliances come and go and change in this band.

[onmyjrny]

If you read that legal document all the way through, it looks like Herbie and Perry voted with Smitty and Valory to make Smith President and Valory Secretary. Cain didn't vote. Neal didn't show up. TO ME this indicates that the organization is unhappy with the Schon/Cain circus that's been going on over the past few years. Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but if I was in a BUSINESS VENTURE with these guys at the top, acting as they have been, I'd definitely be concerned and definitely try to put somebody else in charge of things, at least short term. Now Cain and Schon are suing them. However, there's a majority vote by the board members that puts Smith as pres and Valory as Secretary. It's already been voted on, so I'm not sure how Jon and Neal can fight that. It seems that Perry, Smith, Valory, and Herbie are in charge of Nightmare.

Edit: Ah, but it's Elmo that owns the 'Journey' name, ok. Still, not sure why C&S didn't also sue Perry & Herbie here.

And SP got 50% of the first post Journey tour and album net? wow.

I kind of skimmed the document; haven't had a lot of time to sit down and read. But what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I used to think JC was the smart one with the common sense but not so sure about this now. Herbie was really clear in his interview many years ago what he thought of JC. It is so weird how alliances come and go and change in this band.

But the writing in the complaint is like no other legal document I have ever read.

[Marabelle]

What if: Mr P brought SS and the other guy (whatever his name is) into a side project. Journey as it has been known has been quartered and maimed. I'd listen.

[perryfan61]

I hope there is a counter suit by Ross and Smitty. If there is, I wonder if it will be all over FB, TMZ, and the Rolling Stone?

I think Neal just wanted those two expensive employees out of this coming tour. More money for him and Cain, as replacements will earn a lot less. He's using the board room shuffle as an excuse to fire them......and majorly disrespect them at the same time.

The documents shown do not support the idea that Ross and Smitty wanted to take over the brand. All that happened was a change in board member titles, which was supported by SP and Herbie. Neal wasn't even present. Wonder why he didn't bother to even phone it in? Sounds suspicious to me.

It's true that the language used in the opening documents doesn't sound like it was written by a lawyer, more like a whine from Neal. " More talented musicians " indeed!!

[The_Noble_Cause]

I hope there is a counter suit by Ross and Smitty. If there is, I wonder if it will be all over FB, TMZ, and the Rolling Stone?

I think Neal just wanted those two expensive employees out of this coming tour. More money for him and Cain, as replacements will earn a lot less. He's using the board room shuffle as an excuse to fire them......and majorly disrespect them at the same time.

The documents shown do not support the idea that Ross and Smitty wanted to take over the brand. All that happened was a change in board member titles, which was supported by SP and Herbie. Neal wasn't even present. Wonder why he didn't bother to even phone it in? Sounds suspicious to me.

It's true that the language used in the opening documents doesn't sound like it was written by a lawyer, more like a whine from Neal. " More talented musicians " indeed!!

If Schon only wants bargain rate hired hands, why would he have convinced Smitty to come back in the first place? That makes very little sense to me. Fans can project all sorts of sinister motives onto Neal and Jon. I think the legal documents speak for themselves.

As I've mentioned before on here, when Journey was first trying to rebuild and touring the corn dog county fair festival, Smitty had little interest in rejoining. Now that the band has been succesfully rebuilt, people are coming for their undeserved share of the pie.

[Eric]

If you read that legal document all the way through, it looks like Herbie and Perry voted with Smitty and Valory to make Smith President and Valory Secretary of Nightmare. Cain didn't vote. Neal didn't show up. TO ME this indicates that the organization is unhappy with the Schon/Cain circus that's been going on over the past few years. If I was in a BUSINESS VENTURE with these guys at the top, acting as they have been, I'd definitely be concerned and definitely try to put somebody else in charge of things, at least short term. They're probably worried about Cain and Schon driving the band into the ground as seemed to be happening last year. Now Cain and Schon are suing them. However, there's a majority vote by the board members that puts Smith as pres and Valory as Secretary. It's already been voted on, so I'm not sure how Jon and Neal can fight that. It seems that Perry, Smith, Valory, and Herbie are in charge of Nightmare.

Edit: Ah, but it's Elmo that owns the 'Journey' name, ok. Still, not sure why C&S didn't also sue Perry & Herbie here. And it sounds like those 4 are now in control of Nightmare, which is a pretty big deal as it's such a huge part of the Journey machine.
.

I've been trying to read through and decipher. I'm not a lawyer so who cares what I think it means, but here goes my summary. Anyone... please correct me where I'm wrong:

- Nightmare owns the Journey Mark BUT Elmo controls it.
- Elmo is Schon, Cain and Perry
- I don't understand why Elmo was established in 1985 with Perry/Schon/Cain but in 1998 Perry agreed on Schon and Cain carrying on Journey for conce$$ion$
- I think Nightmare owns the old and Elmo owns the new through NOMOTA?
- As long as Schon and Cain want to tour as Journey they can
- Once they stop, Nightmare regains control
- Valory and Smith got control of Nightmare thinking they can take back control of the Mark.
- Now, the question is does Nightmare have any legal right to pull control? Also, was what Valory and Smith did legal?
- if yes to both of the above, then what would the endgame be? They think it would give them rights to touring proceeds but if successful in pulling the Mark would Schon and Cain continue touring if they had to pay Perry PLUS those two? Not sure they would and then nobody gets anything.
- I understand the firing but not sure I understand the 10mil suit?

As I've said... I'm excited because this could be renewed energy in a near dormant band. But aside from that fact I'm also on Schon and Cain's side because once again they want to work and others don't. I'm not in favor of paying people who don't want to work. I can't imagine they haven't been paid handsomely the last 40+ years?

[FamilyMan]

Business as usual on Smitty's Twitter page...

https://twitter.com/stevesmithdrums

[Eric]

As I've mentioned before on here, when Journey was first trying to rebuild and touring the corn dog county fair festival, Smitty had little interest in rejoining. Now that the band has been succesfully rebuilt, people are coming for their undeserved share of the pie.

Really, really good point. Schon and Cain rebuilt this thing. They may not be articulate all the time and have their flaws but they are the ones putting in the work and still wanting to put in the work.

[Eric]

What if: Mr P brought SS and the other guy (whatever his name is) into a side project. Journey as it has been known has been quartered and maimed. I'd listen.

What if 3 guys who don't want to record and heavily tour as Journey got together and worked?

[onmyjrny]

Was there any indication before the complaint that Valory and Smith wanted to retire? I assume they were going to be the ones out on the tour this time around?

[Eric]

I hope there is a counter suit by Ross and Smitty. If there is, I wonder if it will be all over FB, TMZ, and the Rolling Stone?

Why wouldn't it be?

I think Neal just wanted those two expensive employees out of this coming tour. More money for him and Cain, as replacements will earn a lot less. He's using the board room shuffle as an excuse to fire them......and majorly disrespect them at the same time.

I don't know if you're right about using the shuffle as an excuse but I think it would be because Schon wants Journey to be an active band with players who share his vision... and not because he wants to bring in cheaper players. As TNC has mentioned Schon asked Smith back for years. He even openly begged him to fill-in when Deen-O got hurt in 1999.

The documents shown do not support the idea that Ross and Smitty wanted to take over the brand. All that happened was a change in board member titles, which was supported by SP and Herbie. Neal wasn't even present. Wonder why he didn't bother to even phone it in? Sounds suspicious to me.

Agree to a point, but why would they pull that coup if not for wanting to force a retirement plan? We are well aware of who wants to tour, make new music and remain active and who doesn't. And do you agree that how they went about doing this seems odd?

It's true that the language used in the opening documents doesn't sound like it was written by a lawyer, more like a whine from Neal. " More talented musicians " indeed!!

I don't completely disagree about the wording, but isn't this a very reputable well known and successful law firm?

[Eric]

Was there any indication before the complaint that Valory and Smith wanted to retire? I assume they were going to be the ones out on the tour this time around?

I assumed that as well, but not sure what plans were moving forward.

My observations. I could be wrong but this is how I fee:

- Valory thought Journey was going to be ending in 2018 (per interviews) and he was the oldest band member.
- The setlist went from bland to super bland after Smith rejoined the band (READ: Schon lost his Deen vote to be more aggressive). Originally signed on for 2 years in 2016.
- Schon and Cain - among other things - promote the hell out of Journey. I don't see that from anyone else.
- Schon has stated he wanted to do new music but he couldn't do it alone and didn't want to recreate similar past songs that they couldn't play live.
- Cain has stated he wants to do new music but it needs to have the classic sound.
- After 2 years of sniping Cain and Schon appear to be on the same page again so I assume with both saying there will be new music they must have compromised. I don't think Valory and Smith cared about new music at this stage.
- Smith seems super focused on his Jazz career as its his baby.

[Sighlence]

What if: Mr P brought SS and the other guy (whatever his name is) into a side project. Journey as it has been known has been quartered and maimed. I'd listen.

What if 3 guys who don't want to record and heavily tour as Journey got together and worked?

We can play the "what if" game until the end of time. What if Schon wasn't an egotistical dick? Seriously though, everyone involved voted against Schon and Cain. That speaks volumes.

[brywool]

I would say Perry voting with Smith and Valory pretty much puts an end to ANY speculation of him and Neal ever working together again. Maybe now people will stop asking that question. Hey, if there's anything positive out of all this...

[Memorex]

The way I see it, and I could be wrong, is that Nightmare owns the name and Perry is a stakeholder. And that cost Perry money along the way. That money came from Journey proceeds, I imagine. At least I'm guessing that any stakeholder in Nightmare had to put up money, or some equivalent. So let's assume for a moment that Perry is a stakeholder in a company that he help fund and it's number one asset is the name "Journey". That's akin to a co-owner of a software company that has a product as an asset. He helped pay for and then work the brand to make that product have x value.

Now comes a time where they ask Perry to leave. Well wait, he owns this stake and has this asset that has a large value. No way he just walks away from it, nor should he. But Nightmare says well, we understand it has future value but since we don't keep money in the bank, per se, we have to pay you your share of the asset over time, based on future sales. If you are Perry, at the time, it makes good business sense to get that up front. In fact, it was not good business sense in hindsight. Perry had no way of knowing if Journey would survive very long without him. So he front loads the payment across the first two tours. I bet he wishes he would have made that on the 5th and 6th tours. But either way, he is being compensated for the brand he built and helped fund. It's not getting money for nothing. It's that passive income we all want. But you don't get passive income without first having funded something.

[onmyjrny]

If you can believe the Celebrity Net Worth sites on the internet, Ross is worth $30M and Smitty is worth less at $10M. At their ages I think their retirement is secure.

[FamilyMan]

The way I see it, and I could be wrong, is that Nightmare owns the name and Perry is a stakeholder. And that cost Perry money along the way. That money came from Journey proceeds, I imagine. At least I'm guessing that any stakeholder in Nightmare had to put up money, or some equivalent. So let's assume for a moment that Perry is a stakeholder in a company that he help fund and it's number one asset is the name "Journey". That's akin to a co-owner of a software company that has a product as an asset. He helped pay for and then work the brand to make that product have x value.

Now comes a time where they ask Perry to leave. Well wait, he owns this stake and has this asset that has a large value. No way he just walks away from it, nor should he. But Nightmare says well, we understand it has future value but since we don't keep money in the bank, per se, we have to pay you your share of the asset over time, based on future sales. If you are Perry, at the time, it makes good business sense to get that up front. In fact, it was not good business sense in hindsight. Perry had no way of knowing if Journey would survive very long without him. So he front loads the payment across the first two tours. I bet he wishes he would have made that on the 5th and 6th tours. But either way, he is being compensated for the brand he built and helped fund. It's not getting money for nothing. It's that passive income we all want. But you don't get passive income without first having funded something.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Nightmare, Inc was exclusive to Journey. Nightmare also included a production company called Nocturne at one point - which was a lighting and video company that Herbie founded for big stadium and arena rock acts. (It's featured in the NFL Films doc on ROR). This was the preeminent touring company of the 80's and 90's. If Perry was getting a piece of that too, Journey could never have done another gig and he would still have made a fortune off Nocturne alone.

[perryswoman]

I would say Perry voting with Smith and Valory pretty much puts an end to ANY speculation of him and Neal ever working together again. Maybe now people will stop asking that question. Hey, if there's anything positive out of all this...

As much as I would love that, Perry wouldn’t touch that shit show with a ten foot pole

[Hollywood]

If you read that legal document all the way through, it looks like Herbie and Perry voted with Smitty and Valory to make Smith President and Valory Secretary of Nightmare. Cain didn't vote. Neal didn't show up. TO ME this indicates that the organization is unhappy with the Schon/Cain circus that's been going on over the past few years. If I was in a BUSINESS VENTURE with these guys at the top, acting as they have been, I'd definitely be concerned and definitely try to put somebody else in charge of things, at least short term. They're probably worried about Cain and Schon driving the band into the ground as seemed to be happening last year. Now Cain and Schon are suing them. However, there's a majority vote by the board members that puts Smith as pres and Valory as Secretary. It's already been voted on, so I'm not sure how Jon and Neal can fight that. It seems that Perry, Smith, Valory, and Herbie are in charge of Nightmare.

Edit: Ah, but it's Elmo that owns the 'Journey' name, ok. Still, not sure why C&S didn't also sue Perry & Herbie here. And it sounds like those 4 are now in control of Nightmare, which is a pretty big deal as it's such a huge part of the Journey machine.
.

I've been trying to read through and decipher. I'm not a lawyer so who cares what I think it means, but here goes my summary. Anyone... please correct me where I'm wrong:

- Nightmare owns the Journey Mark BUT Elmo controls it.
- Elmo is Schon, Cain and Perry
- I don't understand why Elmo was established in 1985 with Perry/Schon/Cain but in 1998 Perry agreed on Schon and Cain carrying on Journey for conce$$ion$
- I think Nightmare owns the old and Elmo owns the new through NOMOTA?
- As long as Schon and Cain want to tour as Journey they can
- Once they stop, Nightmare regains control
- Valory and Smith got control of Nightmare thinking they can take back control of the Mark.
- Now, the question is does Nightmare have any legal right to pull control? Also, was what Valory and Smith did legal?
- if yes to both of the above, then what would the endgame be? They think it would give them rights to touring proceeds but if successful in pulling the Mark would Schon and Cain continue touring if they had to pay Perry PLUS those two? Not sure they would and then nobody gets anything.
- I understand the firing but not sure I understand the 10mil suit?

As I've said... I'm excited because this could be renewed energy in a near dormant band. But aside from that fact I'm also on Schon and Cain's side because once again they want to work and others don't. I'm not in favor of paying people who don't want to work. I can't imagine they haven't been paid handsomely the last 40+ years?

This happened when Valory and Smith were fired prior to Raised on Radio.

[Hollywood]

I hope there is a counter suit by Ross and Smitty. If there is, I wonder if it will be all over FB, TMZ, and the Rolling Stone?

I think Neal just wanted those two expensive employees out of this coming tour. More money for him and Cain, as replacements will earn a lot less. He's using the board room shuffle as an excuse to fire them......and majorly disrespect them at the same time.

The documents shown do not support the idea that Ross and Smitty wanted to take over the brand. All that happened was a change in board member titles, which was supported by SP and Herbie. Neal wasn't even present. Wonder why he didn't bother to even phone it in? Sounds suspicious to me.

It's true that the language used in the opening documents doesn't sound like it was written by a lawyer, more like a whine from Neal. " More talented musicians " indeed!!

If Schon only wants bargain rate hired hands, why would he have convinced Smitty to come back in the first place? That makes very little sense to me. Fans can project all sorts of sinister motives onto Neal and Jon. I think the legal documents speak for themselves.

As I've mentioned before on here, when Journey was first trying to rebuild and touring the corn dog county fair festival, Smitty had little interest in rejoining. Now that the band has been succesfully rebuilt, people are coming for their undeserved share of the pie.

I think the legal documents are very vague. The Perry agreement speaks for itself, but the Nightmare stuff really has no meaning. President and secretary have no real meaning in that all 6 people own the same share of the business and have the same voting power. Perry doesn't care who's in charge, but he would care if it harmed his income and this wouldn't. Herbie would be the same way.

[Eric]

The way I see it, and I could be wrong, is that Nightmare owns the name and Perry is a stakeholder. And that cost Perry money along the way. That money came from Journey proceeds, I imagine. At least I'm guessing that any stakeholder in Nightmare had to put up money, or some equivalent. So let's assume for a moment that Perry is a stakeholder in a company that he help fund and it's number one asset is the name "Journey". That's akin to a co-owner of a software company that has a product as an asset. He helped pay for and then work the brand to make that product have x value.

Now comes a time where they ask Perry to leave. Well wait, he owns this stake and has this asset that has a large value. No way he just walks away from it, nor should he. But Nightmare says well, we understand it has future value but since we don't keep money in the bank, per se, we have to pay you your share of the asset over time, based on future sales. If you are Perry, at the time, it makes good business sense to get that up front. In fact, it was not good business sense in hindsight. Perry had no way of knowing if Journey would survive very long without him. So he front loads the payment across the first two tours. I bet he wishes he would have made that on the 5th and 6th tours. But either way, he is being compensated for the brand he built and helped fund. It's not getting money for nothing. It's that passive income we all want. But you don't get passive income without first having funded something.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Nightmare, Inc was exclusive to Journey. Nightmare also included a production company called Nocturne at one point - which was a lighting and video company that Herbie founded for big stadium and arena rock acts. (It's featured in the NFL Films doc on ROR). This was the preeminent touring company of the 80's and 90's. If Perry was getting a piece of that too, Journey could never have done another gig and he would still have made a fortune off Nocturne alone.

I believe the band wanted to sell off Nocturne and only Herbie and Neal held onto it. Could be wrong.

[Scarab Pilot]

I guess they really cracked the stone this time.

[Pacfanweb]

Wonder why Cain abstained from those votes?

[ebake02]

Reading though all of this again has me wondering about a few things:

1.) If Cain really didn’t sign that shareholder meeting notice and was “blindsided” then why did he let the meeting go on as scheduled without raising holy hell beforehand?

2.) If Neal was blindsided as well then why didn’t he attend the meeting personally and raise hell too, either in person or by phone?

3.) I can see Smith and Valory being in the dark about the Elmo Agreement since they were both fired before then but how can their lawyers really not do their homework and tell their clients that they had the wrong idea?

4:) Was Azoff involved in this scheme too hence his firing as manager?

5:) What would Perry have to gain by disrupting the status quo and siding with Smith and Valory? Did he think he could get a sweeter deal than he already had?

6:) On what planet did Smith and Valory think this scheme would work? If they took control of the name then Schon and Cain would most certainly pull the plug on the band as a touring revenue generating act so their fat retire check would be considerably smaller.

[Journey/Survivor]

I smell another pathetic publicity stunt. Journey has been pulling all kinds of publicity stunt shit like crazy in recent years, and it's disgusting.

There's no way that this is a true event.

Seriously Journey members.... Grow the hell up. You're turning into an absolute joke!!!

What publicity stunts has Journey pulled in recent years?

Virtually everything Schon and Cain have done in recent years is a stunt of some sort or another. Their feud with each other is a charade. Schon's naked picture was a publicity stunt. There are other stunts and scams that they have been pulling in recent years that I'm not going to go into on here. To an extent they are pawns. But they need to grow some damn balls and put an end to it!