The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

[RedWingFan]

Please be specific. This thread is already winding out of control.

Here it is. Though I doubt you'll be able to read it with your head so far up your ass. For someone who claims to be so open-minded and nuanced. You flat out ignore when people show you evidence you ask for then keep pounding away claiming false ads that are true.

Oh, and please try to find me, as a countenance, an OBAMA-ENDORSED ad that makes outrageously false claims like that.

We already talked about it in this thread. Obama's own campaign put out an ad making it look like Rush Limbaugh was being racist when it was obvious from its context that it was a comedy bit about MEXICO'S OWN IMMIGRATION LAWS. Limbaugh was purposely acting as if those laws were ours and how people would react if we enforced immigration laws that way. This Spanish-language ad went on to falsely tie Limbaugh's comments to McCain, when McCain's own beliefs are far from Limbaugh's. Outright lies in that ad and even ABC reported on it.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... act-1.html

This was discussed starting on page 17 of this thread and has been mentioned elsewhere also... http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... &start=480

[7 Wishes]

"They want us to forget the insults we've put up with, the intolerance. They made us feel marginalized in a country we love so much. John McCain and his Republican friends have two faces. One that lies just to get our vote, and another, even worse, that continues the failed policies of George Bush that put special interests ahead of working families."

Linking McCain to Limbaugh is laughable, for the most part. But they have both advocated the same hard-line position on immigration.

So, sure. It's politics as usual - and an example of the Democrats (for once, unfortunately) using scare tactics to make a point.

The difference is, the context of the ad does not contain any lies - just an unfair association. They're trying to capture the attention of the viewer by using Limbaugh's statements (supposedly an attempt at humor on Rush's part, with no offense meant, although I doubt it) and then bringing up McCain's anti-immigration stance.

The Palin ad, on the other hand, is a blatant lie. Her pathetic record speaks for itself.

[7 Wishes]

Here it is. Though I doubt you'll be able to read it with your head so far up your ass. For someone who claims to be so open-minded and nuanced. You flat out ignore when people show you evidence you ask for then keep pounding away claiming false ads that are true.

I couldn't find the first post about it. Thus, I asked for a little help. Relax, man. Listen to some A-ha or something.

[conversationpc]

The difference is, the context of the ad does not contain any lies - just an unfair association. They're trying to capture the attention of the viewer by using Limbaugh's statements (supposedly an attempt at humor on Rush's part, with no offense meant, although I doubt it)

Yes, the context of the ad DOES contain lies. It presents Limbaugh's comedy bit by claiming that Limbaugh himself believes in all those things. What Limbaugh was doing was taking MEXICAN immigration law and pretending as if it were American law to contrast how extreme it is. He doesn't believe those things. The ad was/is a flat-out lie. Even the ABC journalist who wrote the article pointed that out. It wasn't just about the association but about the context of Limbaugh's comments being taken COMPLETELY out of context. Even TNC admitted as much in this thread when we first discussed it, though he did say he thought Limbaugh's REAL beliefs on immigration law were bad enough.

[Jana]

This is my favorite title to an article yet on Sarah Palin: "Women Don't Be Fooled - Sarah Palin is a Bridge to Nowhere."









"ARNEL MAKES ME A BETTER GUY JUST KNOWING HIM" - JON CAIN

[Jana]

"This is my favorite title yet to an article on Sarah Palin: "Women Don't Be Fooled - Sarah Palin is a Bridge to Nowhere."









"ARNEL MAKES ME A BETTER GUY JUST KNOWING HIM" - JON CAIN[/quote]

[S2M]

my vote for barack obama is not based on his stance on a woman's right to choose. with regards to the supreme court- our next sitting president will most likely be appointing several judges of his choice. roe v wade can very well be overturned. i can promise you there will be states outlawing legal abortion if given the opportunity. a woman should have the right of making her own decision and if she chooses to have an abortion she should be able to do so safely without reverting back to the days of back alley abortions. it is a choice. and any person not able to see the big picture and shrugging it off as never happening, think again.

It is NOT a choice, it is a life....the CHOICE was whether or not to spread her fucking legs...and that has since passed.....So now she has a life in her body.

Look no further than the name of the respective movements: Pro-LIFE, and pro-CHOICE....that about says it all, my friend.

Abortions are nothing more than Monday-morning birth control....although in cases of rape, I can see the argument; but in that instance ONLY.

wow. your first sentence really had me dumbfounded..... you sort of recovered with you last comment. i don't ever pretend to no what motivates anyone. an abortion is a very personal choice. i would not be so quick to assume she "spread her fucking legs." what a vile comment.

Having sex without protection SHOULD be a very personal choice........

[Lula]

tis a fine sunday morning when the latest polls show obama/biden in the lead. i don't put much stock in polls, but it is nice to see your candidate leading . looking forward to the debates, not long now.

[treetopovskaya]

having sex without protection is just stupid... if you are not ready to be a parent & if you don't want to get an std use a freaking condom AND birth control. the answer is pretty easy. educate your kids... ESPECIALLY when they start asking you questions about sex. having sex is more than just an act... it's the way we reproduce... make new life... so if you're not ready for the responsibility of having a child & being a parent... either don't have sex or use protection. it really is that simple.

my vote for barack obama is not based on his stance on a woman's right to choose. with regards to the supreme court- our next sitting president will most likely be appointing several judges of his choice. roe v wade can very well be overturned. i can promise you there will be states outlawing legal abortion if given the opportunity. a woman should have the right of making her own decision and if she chooses to have an abortion she should be able to do so safely without reverting back to the days of back alley abortions. it is a choice. and any person not able to see the big picture and shrugging it off as never happening, think again.

It is NOT a choice, it is a life....the CHOICE was whether or not to spread her fucking legs...and that has since passed.....So now she has a life in her body.

Look no further than the name of the respective movements: Pro-LIFE, and pro-CHOICE....that about says it all, my friend.

Abortions are nothing more than Monday-morning birth control....although in cases of rape, I can see the argument; but in that instance ONLY.

wow. your first sentence really had me dumbfounded..... you sort of recovered with you last comment. i don't ever pretend to no what motivates anyone. an abortion is a very personal choice. i would not be so quick to assume she "spread her fucking legs." what a vile comment.

Having sex without protection SHOULD be a very personal choice........

[treetopovskaya]

40 million abortions since the mid 70s.

that really shows just how stupid the human race really is.

[Enigma869]

tis a fine sunday morning when the latest polls show obama/biden in the lead. i don't put much stock in polls, but it is nice to see your candidate leading . looking forward to the debates, not long now.

Lula...

You are VERY smart not to put a lot of weight into any polls. The NH primary polls showed Obama winning in a landslide. Hillary ended up winning NH by double digits.


John from Boston

[RossValoryRocks]

tis a fine sunday morning when the latest polls show obama/biden in the lead. i don't put much stock in polls, but it is nice to see your candidate leading . looking forward to the debates, not long now.

Lula...

You are VERY smart not to put a lot of weight into any polls. The NH primary polls showed Obama winning in a landslide. Hillary ended up winning NH by double digits.


John from Boston

This race is so close that polls are about useless. Traditionally red states may go blue, traditionally blue states may go red...forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

[The_Noble_Cause]

Bidens Big Lie, this is really sickening and apparently true as I've heard the Media repeat Bidens claim. Gonna be an interesting week on the stump.

The New York Times reported the 2007 crowd at the University of Iowa grew silent as Biden gave his version of what happened that day.

"Let me tell you a little story," The newspaper quoted Biden as saying. "I got elected when I was 29, and I got elected November the 7th. And on Dec. 18 of that year, my wife and three kids were Christmas shopping for a Christmas tree. A tractor-trailer, a guy who allegedly -- and I never pursued it -- drank his lunch instead of eating his lunch, broadsided my family and killed my wife instantly, and killed my daughter instantly, and hospitalized my two sons, with what were thought to be at the time permanent, fundamental injuries."

Biden told a similar story when addressing an audience at the Bob Carpenter Center at the University of Delaware a few days after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"It was an errant driver who stopped to drink instead of drive , hit my children and my wife and killed them," Biden said, according to a transcript archived on his Senate Web site.

Sad huh, yep, cause the real story is..

1972 crash still haunts driver's family

No DUI in crash that killed Biden's 1st wife, but he's implied otherwise

Since his vice presidential nomination, Joe Biden's 2007 statement that a "guy who allegedly ... drank his lunch" and drove the truck that struck and killed his first wife and daughter has gained national media traction.

Alcohol didn't play a role in the 1972 crash, investigators found. But as recently as last week, the syndicated TV show Inside Edition aired a clip from 2001 of Biden describing the accident to an audience at the University of Delaware and saying the truck driver "stopped to drink instead of drive."

The senator's statements don't jibe with news and law enforcement reports from the time, which cleared driver Curtis C. Dunn, who died in 1999, of wrongdoing.

"To see it coming from [Biden's] mouth, I just burst into tears," Dunn's daughter, Glasgow resident Pamela Hamill, 44, said Wednesday. "My dad was always there for us. Now we feel like we should be there for him because he's not here to defend himself."

Biden spokesman David Wade said Wednesday that the senator "fully accepts the Dunn family's word that these rumors were false."

It's unclear who first suggested alcohol was a factor in the crash, but since Barack Obama tapped Biden to be his running mate on Aug. 23, The New York Times, National Public Radio and The Economist have run stories that characterized Dunn as a drunken driver.

http://tinyurl.com/4vjkv8

As if a posthumous charge of drunkenness is somehow going to tarnish a record that already includes mass vehicular homicide?
More mock outrage...

[csiako]

pop quiz on abortion
http://www.unfairchoice.info/popquizgeneral.htm

[7 Wishes]

Lie Finder, you've come up with some valid points over the years. That is NOT one of them. Move along, now.

[Lula]

pop quiz on abortion
http://www.unfairchoice.info/popquizgeneral.htm

not a biased quiz, right? it is a personal choice and should be left alone, imo of course

[Lula]

tis a fine sunday morning when the latest polls show obama/biden in the lead. i don't put much stock in polls, but it is nice to see your candidate leading . looking forward to the debates, not long now.

Lula...

You are VERY smart not to put a lot of weight into any polls. The NH primary polls showed Obama winning in a landslide. Hillary ended up winning NH by double digits.


John from Boston

This race is so close that polls are about useless. Traditionally red states may go blue, traditionally blue states may go red...forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

not feeling so smart as dean pointed out my typing mistakes

i'm an election season junkie, always have been

and i see fact finder did another drive by

[RossValoryRocks]

As if a posthumous charge of drunkenness is somehow going to tarnish a record that already includes mass vehicular homicide?
More mock outrage...

No it was an accident. It happens. People sometimes mess up.

Using the legal term to amplify it and make it sound as if he committed a crime of different magnitude.

You don't find it wrong that in order to enhance Biden's own appeal he falsely accuses an innocent man of DUI and remakes what is already a tragedy into something worse, so that he can score points?

And don't give me the republicans do it, because BOTH are wrong. Just because one person or group is wrong doesn't excuse the behavior and actions of the other.

TNC you are the master of situation ethics!

[RossValoryRocks]

Lie Finder, you've come up with some valid points over the years. That is NOT one of them. Move along, now.

Well at least he does put sources in when he refutes your drivel.

You could at LEAST do the same. You need to do more than to say he is wrong, and then not back up your assertion here.

[7 Wishes]

Rush in 1993:

"If you are unskilled and uneducated, your job is going south. Skilled workers, educated people are going to do fine 'cause those are the kinds of jobs NAFTA is going to create. If we are going to start rewarding no skills and stupid people, I'm serious, let the unskilled jobs that take absolutely no knowledge whatsoever to do -- let stupid and unskilled Mexicans do that work."

Sorry, but you can't defend your hero Rush on that one.

I agree that the ad crossed the line, and obviously McCain didn't say the things Limbaugh did. However, the actual WORDS used by the NARRATOR did NOT contain any lies.

The Palin ad is one massive lie with NO truth to it whatsoever.

Therein lies the difference.

[csiako]

pop quiz on abortion
http://www.unfairchoice.info/popquizgeneral.htm

not a biased quiz, right? it is a personal choice and should be left alone, imo of course

do you think its a biased quiz?

[The_Noble_Cause]

No it was an accident. It happens. People sometimes mess up.

Using the legal term to amplify it and make it sound as if he committed a crime of different magnitude.

You don't find it wrong that in order to enhance Biden's own appeal he falsely accuses an innocent man of DUI and remakes what is already a tragedy into something worse, so that he can score points?

The guy nearly wiped out Biden’s entire family.
I imagine everyone in the same situation would have a few choice words or attributed character flaws about the person responsible.

[7 Wishes]

Stu, he didn't refute ANYTHING! He hasn't responded to ONE of the statements I made! He changed the subject deftly and expertly by switching to Biden, as if that had ANYTHING to do with what I said!

Sorry, pal, but the fact is...the email Rick posted is valid, and indisputable...take away the florid language and the basic information is true.

And the Palin ad is one huge lie.

So once again, he has failed to address anything. However, he is practiced at the art of distraction, the skill at which your party exceeds the most.

Well, it's not working either. Obama is now ahead by 2.2% in the popular vote. It's so interesting - when McCain briefly took the lead for a couple of weeks, you put EVERYTHING into the polls, and at least a dozen people on this board guaranteed Obama's electoral downfall in November. Now that the polls have turned back the other way, though, suddenly none of you put "any merit" into polls! How convenient!

[7 Wishes]

Vehicular homicide is not just "messing up". Geez.

[The_Noble_Cause]

As for Biden's personal motivation, (if any)?
It's not really for me to judge.
He can deal with that the next time he lays a wreath at his wife and daughter's grave.

[Lula]

pop quiz on abortion
http://www.unfairchoice.info/popquizgeneral.htm

not a biased quiz, right? it is a personal choice and should be left alone, imo of course

do you think its a biased quiz?

geez

i don't advocate abortion. i think abortion is a horrible thing to undergo. i simply do not presume to know any persons motivation or reasoning. i advocate education. and i whole heartily support a woman's right to make the choice that is best for her. the emotional turmoil is enough for a woman to endure, i don't think i need to add to that by making her feel guilt or regret. i'm done with this debate. i have my position and philosophy and others have theirs. no amount of debate, literature, or quizzes will change my mind.

[csiako]

pop quiz on abortion
http://www.unfairchoice.info/popquizgeneral.htm

not a biased quiz, right? it is a personal choice and should be left alone, imo of course

do you think its a biased quiz?

geez

i don't advocate abortion. i think abortion is a horrible thing to undergo. i simply do not presume to know any persons motivation or reasoning. i advocate education. and i whole heartily support a woman's right to make the choice that is best for her. the emotional turmoil is enough for a woman to endure, i don't think i need to add to that by making her feel guilt or regret. i'm done with this debate. i have my position and philosophy and others have theirs. no amount of debate, literature, or quizzes will change my mind.

I never thought that you advocate abortion. i'm just wondering if you think the quiz is biased or not.

[Lula]

yes, i think it is biased. it is hosted by an anti choice org. there is no question that the emotional turmoil is devastating. this quiz is skewed to produce a certain result that supports the organization's cause. there is nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.

[conversationpc]

Rush in 1993:

"If you are unskilled and uneducated, your job is going south. Skilled workers, educated people are going to do fine 'cause those are the kinds of jobs NAFTA is going to create. If we are going to start rewarding no skills and stupid people, I'm serious, let the unskilled jobs that take absolutely no knowledge whatsoever to do -- let stupid and unskilled Mexicans do that work."

Sorry, but you can't defend your hero Rush on that one.

I agree that the ad crossed the line, and obviously McCain didn't say the things Limbaugh did. However, the actual WORDS used by the NARRATOR did NOT contain any lies.

The Palin ad is one massive lie with NO truth to it whatsoever.

Therein lies the difference.

I can't stand Rush and there is NO difference. Both ads are complete lies.

Do your homework. I've stated on here multiple times that I don't like Limbaugh and have state so many times here.

[RossValoryRocks]

No it was an accident. It happens. People sometimes mess up.

Using the legal term to amplify it and make it sound as if he committed a crime of different magnitude.

You don't find it wrong that in order to enhance Biden's own appeal he falsely accuses an innocent man of DUI and remakes what is already a tragedy into something worse, so that he can score points?

The guy nearly wiped out Biden’s entire family.
I imagine everyone in the same situation would have a few choice words or attributed character flaws about the person responsible.

Sure...as anyone would...however...making up lies about the person responsible to make the tragedy even MORE tragic to score political points smacks?

Come on...that is wrong...