The 2008 US Presidential Election Thread

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Postby strangegrey » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:15 am

conversationpc wrote:Nevertheless, some have argued that U.S. corporate tax rates unduly burden U.S. companies by pointing to the country’s top statutory tax rate, which is 35 percent. For example, a recent Wall Street Journal editorial calling for corporate tax cuts noted that this is the second highest top statutory tax rate among developed countries.[2] While true, this gives the false impression that the corporate tax burden is greater here than in other developed countries. Because the U.S. tax code offers so many deductions, credits, and other mechanisms by which corporations can reduce their taxes, the actual percentage of profits that U.S. corporations pay in taxes — or what analysts refer to as their effective tax rate — is not high, compared to other developed countries.

Because the average U.S. corporate tax burden is low, many economists believe a revenue-neutral corporate tax reform that reduces statutory corporate tax rates, while broadening the tax base by eliminating costly tax breaks, could improve economic efficiency and likely benefit the U.S. economy.



There's a shred of truth to this concept that while the stated tax rate is something that is very high for corporations, there's enough prescriptive application in the Internal Revenue Code for the tax code to evolve into an effective tax rate that may be significantly different from the percentage stated.

There's a current paradigm-struggle in modern accounting. US based accounting rules are called 'rules-based' accounting....International accounting standards are based on something called 'principles-based' accounting. The difference is that how to account for a certain number in a rules-based system is one that is dependent upon a huge list of do's, dont's, exceptions, rules, etc. In principles-based accounting, the guidance is left more to the judgment of the accountant to determine the economic benefit of the treatment. Our current accounting system *and* the Internal Revenue Code are both developed out of a rules-based system. One of the common problems with a rules based system is that as soon as you create an overly prescriptive procedure for accounting for someone, you create a 'bright-line' that accountants (in this case, tax accountants) can circumvent, avoid and work around.

Anyway, to the point at hand, I don't believe, given our current system that it's possible to enact "revenue-neutral corporate tax reform" as mentioned above. Because of this rules-based system, the laws of unintended consequences often comes into play when tax rates are lowered or raised. For example, as capital gains taxes were lowered in this country, people could 'avoid' tax by demanding more stock-based payment instead of salary. It's no accident that as capital gains taxes were lowering in the Clinton era, that stock options became more popular. This might have even been an intended consequence...but regardless, the IRS went nuts trying to write very specific code to prevent people from taking unjust advantage of this.

The current Internal Revenue Code is chock full of tons of pages of guidelines, dos, donts, exceptions, etc. All in an effort to close loopholes and prevent people from engaging in unlawful tax avoidance. At the *same* time, loopholes (often presented in the form of 'credits') are also actually put into place to give a certain party a tax advantage for one reason or another (to aid poor folk, to help an oil buddy from texas, etc)....

As soon as you apply more credits, change tax rates, etc...you basically create a chain reaction which starts with highly paid tax accountants working for large corporations that will antagonize the new code to find new ways around it....Mind you, these guys are usually better paid (and that equates to smarter) than the accountants at the IRS.... The chain reaction usually ends with the 'intended' change resulting in several unintended effects. Then the IRS goes crazy plugging up the new holes.

It's like sticking your finger in a mud dam to stop a leak.


The point I'm trying to make is that no matter WHAT the stated tax rate is and no matter what credits are applied...US corporations are going to take advantage of it, under our current system.


Im fully convinced, that the above mentioned "revenue-neutral corporate tax reform" change would only really happen under a principles-based accounting system. That would force accountants to be trusted to apply more 'judgment' into tax treatments and I'm not so sure our society (our our accountants) is (are) ready to handle that, given how litigious we can be. Let's also consider the fact that theres 80+ years of tax law codified by our judicial system, that would have to get abolished or at the very least, de-emphasized.

The alternative is to abolish are great deal of the secondary code in the IRC...like credits, deductions, exceptions, etc....and that would likely result in re-instating all of the various loopholes that we've spent the past x number of years trying to do away with.
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Postby strangegrey » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:30 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Skylorde wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:... of most rabidly right wing administration in history..


:: cough :: :: cough :: cough ::

Right wing? If Bush was right wing, then I'm a cross dressing gay bath house regular!


So who's your candidate?
Bush I, who rasised taxes?
Reagan, who also spent billions like a wastrel?
Nixon, who signed affirmative action?
Your hardline quibbles notwithstanding, this has been the administration of Rush Limbaugh.
No doubt about it.


TNC, you're going to fight a losing battle here. Hayseed in some ways may be viewed as 'right-wing'....but only in very specific contexts, like military action, etc.

Bush spent far more than Clinton, during his years...he led one of the most liberal, non-fiscally responsible budget runs in history. While you might think that fiscal responsibility is a democrat thing...it's only been a small portion of the democrat party lead by Clinton (who wasn't very popular when he left office). Bush's support of immigration amnesty, something he earned a shitload of enemies in the republican part, is another example.

While RINOs like Colin Powell can go on tv and say that the "party has moved farther to the right" and get away with it on a liberal network...is fucking laughable. The truth is, Hayseed and his administration has (again with above mentioned exceptions) been a very liberal-republican president....The right-most sections of the republican party hasn't moved much. It's the left-pandering portion of the party that has moved very much to the center. If the idiocy of Powell's analysis is to benchmark where the republican party sits in relation to the left or center....then he can get away with saying stupid shite like "the party has moved left". That's just not true.


I don't think *either* faction of the republican party is doing it correctly these days....but let's strive to be acurate here. To refer to Hayseed as the boogie man of all republican boogie mans, waters down your ability to throw a solid argument onto the table.

Certainly republican presidents in the past have signed legislation that can be considered 'liberal' by either past or current point of view....but you need to cite the entire body of the president's work before you label them in one way or another.

For every right-wing, fascist, hittler-esque label you can successfully slap on to the hayseed idiot currently rotting in the white house for something he's done, I'm quite confident that a large handful of people here can rebut with a list of things that don't at all put him in cohorts with the majority of the conservative party.
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Postby treetopovskaya » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:03 am

who knew? alright joe the guitar player! }:C))

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/politi ... id=1128739
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:05 am

Skylorde wrote:Anti-U.S. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez predicted on Sunday the "black man" will win the U.S. presidential race and offered to hold talks with him to improve ties between the superpower and one its biggest oil suppliers.


GOOD! It's time that we stopped the cowboy maverick bullshit that has turned the entire world against us. Countries don't become superpowers by bullying other countries... they do so by using reason, logic, and intelligence to work with their allies... and yes... their enemies. If Chavez becomes pro-Obama and pro-USA, that is a GOOD thing! I am so fucking sick and tired of our country being ran by cowboy bullies. It's time we returned to using the same intelligence and logic that made us a superpower to begin with! We are a very smart group of people... it's about time we started acting like it!

Being a maverick is the opposite of being united. We are not the Maverick States of America - we are the United States of America. Let't start acting like it again!

8)
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:07 am

Voyager wrote:
Skylorde wrote:Anti-U.S. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez predicted on Sunday the "black man" will win the U.S. presidential race and offered to hold talks with him to improve ties between the superpower and one its biggest oil suppliers.


GOOD! It's time that we stopped the cowboy maverick bullshit that has turned the entire world against us. Countries don't become superpowers by bullying other countries... they do so by using reason, logic, and intelligence to work with their allies... and yes... their enemies. If Chavez becomes pro-Obama and pro-USA, that is a GOOD thing! I am so fucking sick and tired of our country being ran by cowboy bullies. It's time we returned to using the same intelligence and logic that made us a superpower to begin with! We are a very smart group of people... it's about time we started acting like it!

8)


Chavez will NEVER be pro US. Keep wishing...while your at it wish for all our houses to turn to gold...both will happen at roughly the same time.
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:10 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Skylorde wrote:Anti-U.S. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez predicted on Sunday the "black man" will win the U.S. presidential race and offered to hold talks with him to improve ties between the superpower and one its biggest oil suppliers.


GOOD! It's time that we stopped the cowboy maverick bullshit that has turned the entire world against us. Countries don't become superpowers by bullying other countries... they do so by using reason, logic, and intelligence to work with their allies... and yes... their enemies. If Chavez becomes pro-Obama and pro-USA, that is a GOOD thing! I am so fucking sick and tired of our country being ran by cowboy bullies. It's time we returned to using the same intelligence and logic that made us a superpower to begin with! We are a very smart group of people... it's about time we started acting like it!

8)


Chavez will NEVER be pro US. Keep wishing...while your at it wish for all our houses to turn to gold...both will happen at roughly the same time.


That's what Bush said, and that's why our country went down the drain. How do you think Chavez became our enemy to begin with? Because of George W. Douche!

8)
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Postby strangegrey » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:27 am

Voyager wrote:That's what Bush said, and that's why our country went down the drain. How do you think Chavez became our enemy to begin with? Because of George W. Douche!


You're kidding right? You make a fairly valid point with the concept that isolating our enemies has unintended consequences that hayseed bush hasn't seen. However, to suggest that Chavez was a staunch supporter of the US prior to Bush...and it's Bush's fault, is a downright laughable and immature statement to make...and it impacts the validity of your original statement greatly.
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Postby Saint John » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:32 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:while your at it wish for all our houses to turn to gold...both will happen at roughly the same time.
Way to go, Stu...now you have a bunch of fantasyland Obama supporters staring at their houses waiting for this to happen!!! :lol:
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:42 am

Voyager wrote:
RossValoryRocks wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Skylorde wrote:Anti-U.S. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez predicted on Sunday the "black man" will win the U.S. presidential race and offered to hold talks with him to improve ties between the superpower and one its biggest oil suppliers.


GOOD! It's time that we stopped the cowboy maverick bullshit that has turned the entire world against us. Countries don't become superpowers by bullying other countries... they do so by using reason, logic, and intelligence to work with their allies... and yes... their enemies. If Chavez becomes pro-Obama and pro-USA, that is a GOOD thing! I am so fucking sick and tired of our country being ran by cowboy bullies. It's time we returned to using the same intelligence and logic that made us a superpower to begin with! We are a very smart group of people... it's about time we started acting like it!

8)


Chavez will NEVER be pro US. Keep wishing...while your at it wish for all our houses to turn to gold...both will happen at roughly the same time.


That's what Bush said, and that's why our country went down the drain. How do you think Chavez became our enemy to begin with? Because of George W. Douche!

8)


He hated the US when Clinton was President...He came to power in 1999...and IMMEDIATELY severed the military ties with the US.

You need to learn history or at least read about things before you present them as facts.

He is a communist, always has been, always will be. The US is a convenient target to him, nothing more.
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Postby separate_wayz » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:43 am

Voyager wrote:
RossValoryRocks wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Skylorde wrote:Anti-U.S. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez predicted on Sunday the "black man" will win the U.S. presidential race and offered to hold talks with him to improve ties between the superpower and one its biggest oil suppliers.


GOOD! It's time that we stopped the cowboy maverick bullshit that has turned the entire world against us. Countries don't become superpowers by bullying other countries... they do so by using reason, logic, and intelligence to work with their allies... and yes... their enemies. If Chavez becomes pro-Obama and pro-USA, that is a GOOD thing! I am so fucking sick and tired of our country being ran by cowboy bullies. It's time we returned to using the same intelligence and logic that made us a superpower to begin with! We are a very smart group of people... it's about time we started acting like it!

8)


Chavez will NEVER be pro US. Keep wishing...while your at it wish for all our houses to turn to gold...both will happen at roughly the same time.


That's what Bush said, and that's why our country went down the drain. How do you think Chavez became our enemy to begin with? Because of George W. Douche!

8)


"Chavez became our enemy to begin with" because of G. Bush???

Utterly stupid ..... I hope you don't believe that.

One thing definitely has happened in the last several years. The hard Left, ever foaming at the mouth over Bush, has espoused a blanket Devil-made-me-do-it explanation in foreign policy.

* Chavez is rabidly anti-American? Well, Bush made him that way!!!
* Radical Islam, willing to kill thousands or millions in pursuit of a Muslim caliphate? Bush made them that way!!!
* Resurgent neo-Tsarist, ultra-nationalistic Russia, able (and willing) to invade sovereign neighbors? Bush made them that way!!!
* U.S. allies who won't commit lives or funding for NATO missions? Bush made them that way!!!

The common element: they're all bullshit. One thing will change on January 21, 2009: neither American allies nor American enemies will have the convenient cover of hiding behind George Bush's unpopularity.

And here's what will we learn then: (1) America's enemies will continue to oppose American national interests in pursuit of their own (regardless of who's in the White House), and (2) America's allies will continue to balk at providing troops or treasure (such as in Afghanistan, a NATO mission), thereby continuing to mooch and free-ride off America's provision of global security.

We're about to get a vivid illustration of which countries and leaders are completely full-of-crap .....
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:45 am

strangegrey wrote:
Voyager wrote:That's what Bush said, and that's why our country went down the drain. How do you think Chavez became our enemy to begin with? Because of George W. Douche!


You're kidding right? You make a fairly valid point with the concept that isolating our enemies has unintended consequences that hayseed bush hasn't seen. However, to suggest that Chavez was a staunch supporter of the US prior to Bush...and it's Bush's fault, is a downright laughable and immature statement to make...and it impacts the validity of your original statement greatly.


Chavez may have been cold to the USA before W. Douche got in office... but he was never outright critical towards us on the national stage like he was after Douche started bullying other countries. I don't blame him one bit. Douche deserved the criticism.

Obama is the opposite of Douche... he uses reason, logic, and intelligence instead of stupid cowboy maverick brute force. Douche acted like he owned the world and was its dictator-in-chief. That is no way for the leader of a superpower to act - at least not if you want to have any allies left.

8)
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Postby Skylorde » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:48 am

Voyager wrote:they do so by using reason, logic, and intelligence to work with their allies... and yes... their enemies.


You don't get it, you never will. Please let Obama send teams of ass kissing delegates to coddle and suck ass with Akmadinijad, Chavez and the like.

I really, *really* hope he does. They'll fucking tell us exactly what we want to hear and do the opposite, just like North Korea did Clinton over their nukes.

Naieve & clueless.
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:53 am

Voyager wrote:
strangegrey wrote:
Voyager wrote:That's what Bush said, and that's why our country went down the drain. How do you think Chavez became our enemy to begin with? Because of George W. Douche!


You're kidding right? You make a fairly valid point with the concept that isolating our enemies has unintended consequences that hayseed bush hasn't seen. However, to suggest that Chavez was a staunch supporter of the US prior to Bush...and it's Bush's fault, is a downright laughable and immature statement to make...and it impacts the validity of your original statement greatly.


Chavez may have been cold to the USA before W. Douche got in office... but he was never outright critical towards us on the national stage like he was after Douche started bullying other countries. I don't blame him one bit. Douche deserved the criticism.

Obama is the opposite of Douche... he uses reason, logic, and intelligence instead of stupid cowboy maverick brute force.

8)


Please stop!! You ludicrous statements are making me laugh so hard tears are coming out of my eyes.

Chavez has always hated the US. Please spend some time educating yourself before you post such hilarious but untrue statements.

Obama isn't elected yet. Not that I think McCain is going to win, but never count those chickens before they hatch, lest you feel like John Kerry.
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:56 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:Please stop!! You ludicrous statements are making me laugh so hard tears are coming out of my eyes.


Glad I could provide some comedy relief during what must be a very difficult time for you. Your laughter will turn to tears tomorrow, so enjoy it while you can.

8)
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:03 am

Chávez wasn't even sworn in as president of Venezuela until February 2, 1999. He only had a few months in political office before G.W. Douche was elected... so it's not like he was a Fidel Castro who openly hated the USA on the world stage for many years.

You guys need to check your facts... you're making me laugh.

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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:06 am

Voyager wrote:
RossValoryRocks wrote:Please stop!! You ludicrous statements are making me laugh so hard tears are coming out of my eyes.


Glad I could provide some comedy relief during what must be a very difficult time for you. Your laughter will turn to tears tomorrow, so enjoy it while you can.

8)


I won't cry...I have a nice secure job that isn't dependent on Obama or McCain...you will when you lose your job because of the Obama/Pelosi/Reid agenda that will tip this country and the world, for that matter, into another Great Depression.

Really if Obama is elected I will be praying ardently that he is the best President ever, and that he is graced with wisdom and knowledge to equal that of Solomon.

Oh and like YoungJrny...Please enjoy the $500 of the money the hard working people here earned and that you will be recieving as tax credit. I hope you put it to good use.
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:07 am

Voyager wrote:Chávez wasn't even sworn in as president of Venezuela until February 2, 1999. He only had a few months in political office before G.W. Douche was elected... so it's not like he was a Fidel Castro who openly hated the USA on the world stage for many years.

You guys need to check your facts... you're making me laugh.

8)


Uhhh...He had 2 years since Bush wasn't sworn in until January of 2001.

Now you can't even add correctly.

You are making yourself look more and more foolish with every comment.
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:09 am

Skylorde wrote:
Voyager wrote:they do so by using reason, logic, and intelligence to work with their allies... and yes... their enemies.


You don't get it, you never will. Please let Obama send teams of ass kissing delegates to coddle and suck ass with Akmadinijad, Chavez and the like.

I really, *really* hope he does. They'll fucking tell us exactly what we want to hear and do the opposite, just like North Korea did Clinton over their nukes.

Naieve & clueless.


Wow, you guys are really taking this hard aren't you?

Allies don't have to police each other. All they have to do is get along with each other. If they want to treat their citizens like animals, that is none of our fucking business. We need to worry about our own people for a change, and that is what Obama is offering. Trying to police other countries is exactly what has bankrupted our country. Instead of focusing on problems like the mortgage crisis, we were sending hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to fight a useless war in Iraq.

You guys may never understand this type of logic because you have been so used to the opposite. But the opposite of logic, intelligence, and reason is exactly what has caused us to lose our credibility on the world stage.

8)
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:11 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:
Voyager wrote:Chávez wasn't even sworn in as president of Venezuela until February 2, 1999. He only had a few months in political office before G.W. Douche was elected... so it's not like he was a Fidel Castro who openly hated the USA on the world stage for many years.

You guys need to check your facts... you're making me laugh.

8)


Uhhh...He had 2 years since Bush wasn't sworn in until January of 2001.


Okay, show me some news articles from between the dates of 2/1/99 to 1/1/01 that document Chávez spouting hatred towards the USA and I will eat my words.

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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:14 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:Really if Obama is elected I will be praying ardently that he is the best President ever, and that he is graced with wisdom and knowledge to equal that of Solomon.


Likewise for me if McCain is elected.

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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:16 am

Voyager wrote:
RossValoryRocks wrote:
Voyager wrote:Chávez wasn't even sworn in as president of Venezuela until February 2, 1999. He only had a few months in political office before G.W. Douche was elected... so it's not like he was a Fidel Castro who openly hated the USA on the world stage for many years.

You guys need to check your facts... you're making me laugh.

8)


Uhhh...He had 2 years since Bush wasn't sworn in until January of 2001.


Okay, show me some news articles from between the dates of 2/1/99 to 1/1/01 that document Chávez spouting hatred towards the USA and I will eat my words.

8)


Find them yourself...I educated myself on Chavez you can do the same.

I will give you ONE tidbit...as soon as he took office he stopped all military contracts with the US.

Chavez has always hated the US, or at least finds the US a useful country to demonize to distract from his own issues.
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:19 am

Voyager wrote:
Trying to police other countries is exactly what has bankrupted our country.


Because no one else will do it...as evidenced by the Sudan.

The world wants the US to be the policeman, because exactly as was said by Sky, they don't have to pay in either money or lives.
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Postby strangegrey » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:14 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:
Voyager wrote:
RossValoryRocks wrote:
Voyager wrote:Chávez wasn't even sworn in as president of Venezuela until February 2, 1999. He only had a few months in political office before G.W. Douche was elected... so it's not like he was a Fidel Castro who openly hated the USA on the world stage for many years.

You guys need to check your facts... you're making me laugh.

8)


Uhhh...He had 2 years since Bush wasn't sworn in until January of 2001.


Okay, show me some news articles from between the dates of 2/1/99 to 1/1/01 that document Chávez spouting hatred towards the USA and I will eat my words.

8)


Find them yourself...I educated myself on Chavez you can do the same.

I will give you ONE tidbit...as soon as he took office he stopped all military contracts with the US.

Chavez has always hated the US, or at least finds the US a useful country to demonize to distract from his own issues.



Listen, Voyager....you're wrong, regarding Chavez...you're just weaking the teetering soapbox you're standing on, by refusing to quietly accept that.

Like I said, you had a valid point on blaming some of GWB's foreign policy on bringing about the emboldened saber-rattling nature of countries like Iran, Venezuela, etc.

However, to suggest that Bush is entirely to blame for our current status of relationship with these countries...and to follow it up with exposing the fact that you're not entirely savy on the timelines regarding Chavez taking power and his outward stance towards Clinton and the US when he took power....takes your weak soapbox...and smashes it to bits....yet you're still standing there insisting you're correct here.


I'm going to be the LAST person to suggest that waste-of-breath drunkard loser currently sitting in the oval office has done a good or even passable job in foreign policy. I'll go so far as to state that he's been deplorable in not only foreign policy, but pretty much everything else he's done in office.

But I'm not so naive to suggest that he's the cause and reason for dictatorships and antagonistic/violent regimes in the world. Such political forces have been at play for years, decades and centuries prior to Bush taking office, you being born and your ancestors entering this country.

The fact remains that in order to properly blame Bush for his contributions to the world's problems, and retain any sort of credibility in doing so, you need to sound authoritative with your assertions...and not someone that got his/her information from Al Franken or Bill Maher's comedy routine.
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Postby Don » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:29 am

I just saw a commercial with Rev. Jeremiah Wright in it last night. Have these spots been on for a while, and I missed them, or is this a last ditch, guns blazing kind of thing?
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:57 am

Gunbot wrote:I just saw a commercial with Rev. Jeremiah Wright in it last night. Have these spots been on for a while, and I missed them, or is this a last ditch, guns blazing kind of thing?


It's just a last-ditch desperate measure by the McCain camp. They apparently have nothing else to throw at Obama. If this is the only dirt they can come up with between now and tomorrow, I'd say Obama will win by a landslide.

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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:02 am

strangegrey wrote:I'm going to be the LAST person to suggest that waste-of-breath drunkard loser currently sitting in the oval office has done a good or even passable job in foreign policy. I'll go so far as to state that he's been deplorable in not only foreign policy, but pretty much everything else he's done in office.

But I'm not so naive to suggest that he's the cause and reason for dictatorships and antagonistic/violent regimes in the world. Such political forces have been at play for years, decades and centuries prior to Bush taking office, you being born and your ancestors entering this country.


I don't think Douche is the cause of those dictators and regimes being in power. I just believe that the USA has no business trying to police any of them unless we are first attacked by them. We don't see China policing the world, and they are becoming as big of a superpower (or bigger) than the USA. If another country fucks with China, there would be hell to pay - and that's why no one messes with them. They are not snooping around in other country's business like Douche & associates feel the need to do, so they don't catch the worldwide hatred that is thrown at the USA for this very reason.

Sorry if a few of my assumptions were wrong about Chavez. All I was trying to say is that I believe his relationship with the USA will be much smoother once we have a President that is not trying to police the world.

8)
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:10 am

Voyager wrote:
Gunbot wrote:I just saw a commercial with Rev. Jeremiah Wright in it last night. Have these spots been on for a while, and I missed them, or is this a last ditch, guns blazing kind of thing?


It's just a last-ditch desperate measure by the McCain camp. They apparently have nothing else to throw at Obama. If this is the only dirt they can come up with between now and tomorrow, I'd say Obama will win by a landslide.

8)


Not McCain...independent 527 groups...McCain has refused to touch this issue. Again you spew the swill of the uninformed left. Where do you do your research???? MSNBC's Olberman page exclusively???
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Postby strangegrey » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:11 am

Voyager wrote:
I don't think Douche is the cause of those dictators and regimes being in power. I just believe that the USA has no business trying to police any of them unless we are first attacked by them. We don't see China policing the world, and they are becoming as big of a superpower (or bigger) than the USA. If another country fucks with China, there would be hell to pay - and that's why no one messes with them. They are not snooping around in other country's business like Douche & associates feel the need to do, so they don't catch the worldwide hatred that is thrown at the USA for this very reason.

Sorry if a few of my assumptions were wrong about Chavez. All I was trying to say is that I believe his relationship with the USA will be much smoother once we have a President that is not trying to police the world.

8)


Sadly, things aren't as clear, cut and dry as they were back in prior to and including WWII. Countries don't declare "war" anymore. There's a more subtle line of diplomacy, war, tension....that is often conducted with a wink and an underlying message. While I don't think that Dubya has done anywhere near a passable job in office....I think you're being a little too naive in suggesting that our general foreign policy motives changed drastically under bush.

Had the US been attacked on 9/11, under an Al Gore presidency, there would have been a military response....it might not have been the same type of response....but to suggest that "policing" of other countries is something that happens solely under GWB, well...again...that's naive. If you were to front such an idea, how do you explain Bosnia? Somalia? etc Clinton did it too....GHWB did it....Reagan did it....Carter Cluster fucked it....I can go on.
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:12 am

Voyager wrote:
strangegrey wrote:I'm going to be the LAST person to suggest that waste-of-breath drunkard loser currently sitting in the oval office has done a good or even passable job in foreign policy. I'll go so far as to state that he's been deplorable in not only foreign policy, but pretty much everything else he's done in office.

But I'm not so naive to suggest that he's the cause and reason for dictatorships and antagonistic/violent regimes in the world. Such political forces have been at play for years, decades and centuries prior to Bush taking office, you being born and your ancestors entering this country.


I don't think Douche is the cause of those dictators and regimes being in power. I just believe that the USA has no business trying to police any of them unless we are first attacked by them. We don't see China policing the world, and they are becoming as big of a superpower (or bigger) than the USA. If another country fucks with China, there would be hell to pay - and that's why no one messes with them. They are not snooping around in other country's business like Douche & associates feel the need to do, so they don't catch the worldwide hatred that is thrown at the USA for this very reason.

Sorry if a few of my assumptions were wrong about Chavez. All I was trying to say is that I believe his relationship with the USA will be much smoother once we have a President that is not trying to police the world.

8)


No one wants to see the US policing the world, except THE WORLD. No one else will do it. No one else will step up and defend those needing defended...except the US.

Now were you Ok with Clinton going into Bosnia??? OF COURSE YOUR WERE...WHY??? Well...2 reasons...it was the right thing to do and you like Clinton.

Intellectual honesty doesn't seem to be the strong suit of the liberals on this forum.
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Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:18 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:
Voyager wrote:
strangegrey wrote:I'm going to be the LAST person to suggest that waste-of-breath drunkard loser currently sitting in the oval office has done a good or even passable job in foreign policy. I'll go so far as to state that he's been deplorable in not only foreign policy, but pretty much everything else he's done in office.

But I'm not so naive to suggest that he's the cause and reason for dictatorships and antagonistic/violent regimes in the world. Such political forces have been at play for years, decades and centuries prior to Bush taking office, you being born and your ancestors entering this country.


I don't think Douche is the cause of those dictators and regimes being in power. I just believe that the USA has no business trying to police any of them unless we are first attacked by them. We don't see China policing the world, and they are becoming as big of a superpower (or bigger) than the USA. If another country fucks with China, there would be hell to pay - and that's why no one messes with them. They are not snooping around in other country's business like Douche & associates feel the need to do, so they don't catch the worldwide hatred that is thrown at the USA for this very reason.

Sorry if a few of my assumptions were wrong about Chavez. All I was trying to say is that I believe his relationship with the USA will be much smoother once we have a President that is not trying to police the world.

8)


No one wants to see the US policing the world, except THE WORLD. No one else will do it. No one else will step up and defend those needing defended...except the US.

Now were you Ok with Clinton going into Bosnia??? OF COURSE YOUR WERE...WHY??? Well...2 reasons...it was the right thing to do and you like Clinton.

Intellectual honesty doesn't seem to be the strong suit of the liberals on this forum.


Actually I didn't like Clinton when he was in office because I was still a Republican back then. G.W. Douche turned me into a Moderate with eight years of his hardline dictatorship.

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