Finally heard "It's Never Too Late"

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Finally heard "It's Never Too Late"

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:19 pm

Amazing that the guys sold the other remaining Jack Blades collaborations (such as this one) to other performers.
Pity, really.
Some should've found their way onto "Generations".

"Sea of Emotions" went onto Jack Blades solo album, and 3 other Arrival session left overs went onto Mickey Thomas's album and one I think went onto Cain's solo album (could be wrong on that).

Clearly when Blades, Cain & Schon work together they yield that vintage 80's Journey melodic sound (Higher Place, World Gone Wild, It's Never Too Late). But is that necessarily a good thing? Maybe it's for the best that Journey of today is evolving and not exclusively sticking to any set-sound from their past. However, I'd take a retro-sounding Blades tune over Augeri's mind numbingly banal solo "Generations" offerings any day.

Discuss.
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Postby Rockindeano » Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:47 pm

Are you saying bring in Blades for songwriting and keep Augeri to just sing?

If that is interpreted wrong, I apologize.

I happen to think Butterfly is amazing..slow, sure, but lyrically brilliant. lets not forget Augeri assisted on Faith in the Heartland, and Beyond the Clouds. I like the chemistry EXACTLY as it is now(except for the manager), and if you get an activist manager in there, hopefully someone who is alive, I sincerely think Journey could get on radio again.
Just listening to the first 3 tracks on gens tells me there is serious problems with Journey..problems which are solely at the top..management.

Sorry to stray there Mr Cause.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:00 pm

Rock'ndeano wrote:Are you saying bring in Blades for songwriting and keep Augeri to just sing?


Perhaps. Listen, Neal said writing chemistry was an integral part of the auditioning process. He said Augeri had it and then two years later he flip-flopped and said they are finally gelling as a band and Augeri is at long last finding his writing niche. That's weak. Ur right though, some Augier/Cain/Schon collaborations have produced some delectable musical fruit (FITH, BTC) and others haven't (Live and Breathe).
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Postby Rockindeano » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:04 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Rock'ndeano wrote:Are you saying bring in Blades for songwriting and keep Augeri to just sing?


Perhaps. Listen, Neal said writing chemistry was an integral part of the auditioning process. He said Augeri had it and then two years later he flip-flopped and said they are finally gelling as a band and Augeri is at long last finding his writing niche. That's weak. Ur right though, some Augier/Cain/Schon collaborations have produced some delectable musical fruit (FITH, BTC) and others haven't (Live and Breathe).


Yeah, but we all knew when Augeri arrived, he was definitely going to be in the womb, so to speak. We all knew Neal and Jon were the main players....Hey, Neal has got to play spokeperson sometimes too, and that includes politics..

I think Augeri would do much better if outside Journey, because he wouldn't have those 2 huge shadows hanging over him. Perhaps Augeri will never be a serious songwriter in Journey? Who the hell cares> They put out another CD like Generations, i am in line to buy it.

As for Blades, maybe we should credit Schon for all the songwriting..Everywhere He goes, the songwriting improves..think about it?
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:08 pm

Rock'ndeano wrote:Yeah, but we all knew when Augeri arrived, he was definitely going to be in the womb, so to speak. We all knew Neal and Jon were the main players....


Kevin Chalfant has proven himself to be a formidable melodic rock writer in the Journeyesque Storm and Two Fires. Why choose the unproven unknown when Chalfant was such a sure thing eagerly waiting in the wings? Then again, some of Chalfant's solo works have been pretty weak. I think a few quick touch-ups by Cain and Neal on Augeri's solo efforts (Butterfly, Believe) and they'd be in pretty good shape. I guess I am just dissapointed in how hard "Believe" sucks.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:11 pm

Rock'ndeano wrote:I happen to think Butterfly is amazing..slow, sure, but lyrically brilliant.


It's a gentle, pleasant-enough tune. But not a favorite, I "tolerate" it. For some reason I think it would've sounded better done in an acoustic arrangement. Think the Augeri song, Jamie.
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Postby Rockindeano » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:15 pm

Reading Neal's interview for Arrival, maybe their personalities played a part?

Geoff Tate tried out..and was passed on.
Chalfant was passed on.

Maybe Neal and Jon liked Augeris make up and upside better? Perhaps Deen was asked who he could play better with.

I think they are quite happy with the decision. Do you?
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:23 pm

Rock'ndeano wrote:I think they are quite happy with the decision. Do you?


I have no idea. I think Jon and Neal are now coping with firing on two cylinders instead of 3. Writing chemistry is damn important. Perry & Cain used to spit 'em out lickety split. Does this band have that magic or any kind of unique writing synergy of their own? Too soon to tell, really.
5 years between albums is a long time, that creative apathy could be due to the band's dissapointment in Arrival sales and the current state of the music biz OR it could be due to a lack of writing magic. Not sure which it is. However, along with the 5 year wait, factor in the fact that for "Generations" Neal felt the need to throw in a cover tune and Jon tossed in an intended solo track and all indications point to a band that's a little hard pressed to come up with enough original material to fill an entire album.

Then again, they DID have plenty of new material (from Arrival sessions) but for some odd reason they sold it to other artists.

Writing talent is important to me.
I cannot in good concious continue to support a band with a lead singer whose writing talents remain maddeningly dubious.
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Postby Rockindeano » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:30 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Rock'ndeano wrote:I think they are quite happy with the decision. Do you?


I have no idea. I think Jon and Neal are now coping with firing on two cylinders instead of 3. Writing chemistry is damn important. Perry & Cain used to spit 'em out lickety split. Does this band have that magic or any kind of unique writing synergy? Too soon to tell, really. 5 years between albums is a long time, that creative apathy could be due to the band's dissapointment in Arrival sales and the current state of the music biz OR it could be due to a lack of writing magic. Not sure which. However, along with the 5 year wait, factor in the fact that for "Generations" Neal felt the need to throw in a cover tune and Jon tossed in an intended solo track and all indications point to a band that's a little hard pressed to come up with enough original material to fill an entire album.

With regards to Perry and Cain, those songs were great, and came about quickly, but they were soft. Every song Neal participated on, was more rock..Stone In Love, Keep on Runnin' etc..

I think you might be on to something with the attitudes about the Arrival sales and the sorry state of the music biz.. I think if Neal and Jon wrote all the tunes, there would be no danger in Augeri getting upset or leaving..he is too humble and probably go along with anything Schon says..of course I am only musing here.

As far as filling the Generations disc with a cover(Neals), I agree, it shouldn't have made it(do like tho), it's just that they left off "It's Never too Late?" scratchin my head...

I would think Cain has trunkloads of material to throw out there if need be, to swell out an albulm.
Then again, they DID have plenty of new material (from Arrival sessions) but for some odd reason they sold it to other artists.
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Postby Andrew » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:58 pm

Blades has that genius melodic touch....
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Postby Rockindeano » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:20 pm

Andrew wrote:Blades has that genius melodic touch....


Yeah I know he does Andrew. I wish he were in a "better" band tho..
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Postby NealIsGod » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:31 pm

I have never heard anyone hate a song as much as you hate Believe, TNC. Does anyone else on here hate that song? It is not one of the stronger songs on the CD, but it is better than average, IMO. I like very song on Generations, which almost NEVER happens with ANY CD with me. Even Better Together has grown on me. I did not like that one at first, but after many listens, I think it is ok, but still my least favorite on the CD.
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Postby Red13JoePa » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:44 pm

I'm a huge BELIEVE fan. Again, an absoultely HUMUNGOUS vocal by Steve (throguh a talkbox/protools at some points) and Neal's monstrous, insane solo. It sounds to me in many places like something left off the second Audioslave album. Feedback on Neal's rythym track's cool... lot to like about it from my end.
I dig the bluesy rock feel of BT, NIG. R&B is something that seems to fit Augeri naturally.
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Postby jrnyman28 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:16 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:5 years between albums is a long time, that creative apathy could be due to the band's dissapointment in Arrival sales and the current state of the music biz OR it could be due to a lack of writing magic. Not sure which it is.


It is true that we will not know the real reasons. But I think it has more to do with the business side of things than the creative.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:However, along with the 5 year wait, factor in the fact that for "Generations" Neal felt the need to throw in a cover tune and Jon tossed in an intended solo track and all indications point to a band that's a little hard pressed to come up with enough original material to fill an entire album.


I did not think Every Generation was intended as a solo song, I thought they said it just would have worked as a solo song.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Then again, they DID have plenty of new material (from Arrival sessions) but for some odd reason they sold it to other artists.


Sold some, used one for "Generations". There was a lot of material already written, and there are many of us who have always wanted to hear it. Especially when we know that Sony picked the stuff they felt was closest to the classic Journey sound. I know I wanted to hear where Journey was headed, not where they had been.

But I agree that Journey was able to more or less throw together this cd.
HOWEVER, After hearing about the energy Steve put into writing for the CD and him taking his ideas to the band, I think the chemistry is there. I just think there have been other issues (business, stockpile of material, time). Time is a big issue. As Monker pointed out, SS ate into Journey's time. Maybe that is why they went with the cover and the Arrival leftover...not enough time to fully work a couple of the other songs they were working on.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Writing talent is important to me.
I cannot in good concious continue to support a band with a lead singer whose writing talents remain maddeningly dubious.


Why does it have to be the lead singer whose writiing talents you focus on? Hell, why can't there be a single songwriter, why do you feel there needs to be more than 2?
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Postby NoMoreTails » Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:01 am

I'm another Believe fan, love Steve's singing style and Neals work on this one. The only thing I have a slight problem with is the piano riff, can't quite decide if I like it. No problem at all with Butterfly, pefect song IMO.
I don't see Neal and Jon, ok'ing a song they felt wasn't good enough.

Better Together is one of my favorites. Steve's style again shining through, Neal rips. I like how the thrashing verse is followed by the slightly funky chorus.

Out of Harms Way is my first choice among the rockers, sort of a mixture of LaDoDa, the ambitious side two of Frontiers, maybe a touch of Dead or Alive, and again the vocal is all Steve A's own style. The intro with Neal and Deen sounds like combat.

I think Beyond the Clouds rivals any of the cooler sorta ballady things they've ever done. One of my favorite songs ever. Profound lyrically, likely all Steve as it seems Neal may write few if any lyrics.

I see no problem with Steve A's song writting, as these are all songs he was involved in creating except for Out of Harms Way. Then again, some of my favorites tend to be songs alot of Journey fans don't care as much for.

One thought I'd like to hear some discussion on is concerning Perry and song writing. I've always wondered why Perry was listed first in writing credits, he wasn't first alphabetically, and couldn't have had the first idea or most important contribution to every song. I think he probably demanded contractually to be listed first. "In Self-Defense" vs "Self-Defense" credits imply to me that he did not contribute at all the original song but was credited anyway and that the new version was re-titled to avoid giving him credit. Seems that this could not have been done if he had really helped write the version from the Frontiers sessions that ended up on the Schon and Hammer album. Maybe his contract, by the Escape or Fontiers era, stated that he would get a writing credit on anything he sang on-----make that by the time of Frontiers, as Open Arms was by Jonathan solely. Maybe the success of that song prompted Perry to find a way to cash in on any future smashes Jonathan might write by himself. Any thoughts? I'd like to hear Herbie's thoughts on this as well.
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Postby jrnyman28 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:43 am

NoMoreTails wrote:Out of Harms Way is my first choice among the rockers, sort of a mixture of LaDoDa, the ambitious side two of Frontiers, maybe a touch of Dead or Alive, and again the vocal is all Steve A's own style. The intro with Neal and Deen sounds like combat.


Sounds like helicopters to me. I lOVE OOHW and it was the oNE song I really wanted to hear off "Generations" Tuesday. When they played it I was in heaven!

NoMoreTails wrote:One thought I'd like to hear some discussion on is concerning Perry and song writing. I've always wondered why Perry was listed first in writing credits, he wasn't first alphabetically, and couldn't have had the first idea or most important contribution to every song. I think he probably demanded contractually to be listed first. "In Self-Defense" vs "Self-Defense" credits imply to me that he did not contribute at all the original song but was credited anyway and that the new version was re-titled to avoid giving him credit. Seems that this could not have been done if he had really helped write the version from the Frontiers sessions that ended up on the Schon and Hammer album. Maybe his contract, by the Escape or Fontiers era, stated that he would get a writing credit on anything he sang on-----make that by the time of Frontiers, as Open Arms was by Jonathan solely. Maybe the success of that song prompted Perry to find a way to cash in on any future smashes Jonathan might write by himself. Any thoughts? I'd like to hear Herbie's thoughts on this as well.


I think he received credit on any song he helped with a vocal melody on. If he changed the vocal melody in any way, he got credit. Look at "I Stand Alone". The movie version has Sager/Foster (I think) credits. And the Perry version has Sager/Foster/Perry credits. The difference: Perry singing. As for being first, that was probably an agreement. Since his voice and face are out front, so was his name.
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Postby NoMoreTails » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:35 am

[quote="jrnyman28
I think he received credit on any song he helped with a vocal melody on. If he changed the vocal melody in any way, he got credit. Look at "I Stand Alone". The movie version has Sager/Foster (I think) credits. And the Perry version has Sager/Foster/Perry credits. The difference: Perry singing. As for being first, that was probably an agreement. Since his voice and face are out front, so was his name.[/quote]

Good point, but the parts Deen sings on In Self-Defense are essentially the same Perry had done. Do they just echo Neal's on both versions to the point that that wouldn't be considered contributing to the vocal melody? What parts may he have written that aren't on the new one, and how is renaming the song and not giving Perry credit fair or legal if he really had anything to do with writing the original. Helping with vocal melody I can understand, but just his voice appearing on a song shouldn't qualify, which seems to be the case in this one instance.
To me it seems like his name appearing at all was part of the aggreement.
Possibly another demand the band should not have agreed to...
Some bands share writting credits equally whether each member actually contributes or not, for one individual to share whether they contribute or not could be possible if all agreed.

[quote="jrnyman28As for being first, that was probably an agreement. Since his voice and face are out front, so was his name.[/quote

...shouldn't have agreed to this either IMO as I don't feel the voice was more important than the other contributions.
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Postby jrnyman28 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:56 am

NoMoreTails wrote:Good point, but the parts Deen sings on In Self-Defense are essentially the same Perry had done. Do they just echo Neal's on both versions to the point that that wouldn't be considered contributing to the vocal melody? What parts may he have written that aren't on the new one, and how is renaming the song and not giving Perry credit fair or legal if he really had anything to do with writing the original. Helping with vocal melody I can understand, but just his voice appearing on a song shouldn't qualify, which seems to be the case in this one instance.


True, in the case of Self-Defense I have no idea how it works.


NoMoreTails wrote:...shouldn't have agreed to this either IMO as I don't feel the voice was more important than the other contributions.


No more important, but definately more obvious or visible.
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Postby cubby69 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:16 am

NealIsGod wrote:I have never heard anyone hate a song as much as you hate Believe, TNC. Does anyone else on here hate that song? It is not one of the stronger songs on the CD, but it is better than average, IMO. I like very song on Generations, which almost NEVER happens with ANY CD with me. Even Better Together has grown on me. I did not like that one at first, but after many listens, I think it is ok, but still my least favorite on the CD.


I happen to love Believe, not it didn't hit me right at first, but like most songs on this and any new album anymore it has grown on me and I think its a damn good song. I love Better Together, but I liked that one pretty much from the start. The only song that can't seem to get into is KTYLM, probably because its the closest thing to a typical Journey ballad, of which I'm not a huge fan, anyway. But I will admit, its a very beautiful song and I don't hate it as much as I did. 8)
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Postby Red13JoePa » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:20 am

agreed, cubby my man. Andrew's review of the album put it best. "You know it had to happen, so track 7 is ktylm."
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Postby Abitaman » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:14 am

Didn't Jack help right Remember Me?-ERIC
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:15 am

Abitaman wrote:Didn't Jack help right Remember Me?-ERIC


Yep, another fine Blades/Schon collaboration.
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Postby jrnyman28 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:19 pm

cubby69 wrote: I don't hate it as much as I did. 8)


8)
;)
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Postby jrnyman28 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:20 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Abitaman wrote:Didn't Jack help right Remember Me?-ERIC


Yep, another fine Blades/Schon collaboration.



One of the absolute best. This song was so good it made my wife a fan again!
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