MR

Is something right because 'God' says so(the 'Because I said so' defense), or does 'God' say so because it is right?( right and wrong are INDEPENDENT of God's will)

I love this one.

<<<<<<<<< smacks head, deeply inhales/slowly exhales and thinks
of the boards when they were happier spaces.

Both

Socratic Methodist wrote:Is something right because 'God' says so(the 'Because I said so' defense), or does 'God' say so because it is right?( right and wrong are INDEPENDENT of God's will)

I love this one.

Yes.

Ok, I guess no one is interested in this thought provoking stuff.....carry on.

BTW, it can't be 'both'.

Socratic Methodist wrote:Ok, I guess no one is interested in this thought provoking stuff.....carry on.

BTW, it can't be 'both'.

Actually, it can in the sense that we don't always understand right from wrong but sometimes just need to take by faith that what God says is right because he is saying it.

conversationpc wrote:

Socratic Methodist wrote:Ok, I guess no one is interested in this thought provoking stuff.....carry on.

BTW, it can't be 'both'.

Actually, it can in the sense that we don't always understand right from wrong but sometimes just need to take by faith that what God says is right because he is saying it.

I'm not following that. What I am getting is you seem to favor the first option: Something is either right or wrong just because G-D says so. Am I right?

So lying wasn't wrong before G-D said it was?

Socratic Methodist wrote:Ok, I guess no one is interested in this thought provoking stuff.....carry on.

BTW, it can't be 'both'.

Of coarse it can, you do know God is everything and everywhere right?
You would be wrong in questioning such.
Oh this should be good.
Think I've been away to long.
(Oh hush up all you Moon Beam baiters, I can hear your little comments)

Interesting question.

Hope that I am clear on the issue. If I am not ......God says not to punish me.

Ok from my blurry brain I see two issues here:

"because God says so" - there are several levels of this.

There are the Ten Commandments.
There are the human interrpretations of what was historically passed down, and put in writing i.e., Bible (many different versions) Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.
The over the top religious leaders who have received a direct message from God. These messages are usually received by cult leaders and generally order the leader to have sex with all of the women and children (sorry, guys)
Then there are those who receive messages from outer space.

Word of God vs. Free Will

"Thou Shalt not kill" vs. you and your family are asleep in your home, several persons force entry into your home, and are attempting to rape and murder your family. You are fighting for your life and theirs.

Is it a sin to pull the trigger?

Where is it written?

and by the way, as much as I pray, God has never left me a voice mail or an email ..... maybe I should text message.

Cat

CatEyes wrote:
Hope that I am clear on the issue. If I am not ......God says not to punish me.

Again, it CANNOT be both. Something is either right BECAUSE G-D says so, or G-D says so because it IS right. Two separate issuess

Suppose 'God' commanded us to be faithful to a spouse. And in this case, the reason we should be faithful is simply that 'God' required it. Apart from the

divine command, being faithful is neither good nor bad. It is 'God's' command that makes fidelity right. And this leads to trouble, for it represents 'God's'

commands as arbitrary. 'God' could have given different commands just as easily. He could have commanded that lying be right. And you could reply

that 'God' would not command us to be liars. But why not? If he did endorse lying, he would not be commanding us to do wrong, because his command would

make lying right! Honesty was not right before 'God' commanded it. Therefore he had no more reason to command it than the opposite. Therefore, his

command is arbitrary.

And in this light, the concept of the goodness of 'God' is reduced to nonsense. To the pious, it is important that 'God' is all-knowing, and all-powerful, but also

that he is good. But if we accept the fact that the good and the bad are defined by the reference to 'God's' will, this notion is deprived of any meaning.

Imagine this: What could it mean to say that 'God's' commands are good? If 'y is good' simply means 'y is commanded by God', then 'God's commands are

good' would mean only that 'Gods commands are commanded by god', and this is an empty truism. I hope this helps.

Being that we are a secondary cause of God, we have the ability to show imperfections. Because God is and always was, he is all virtuous, unlike us. I think we as humans have free will and thus our actions are completely independent of God's will. Therefore, something that is right is just as God is...completely virtuous. man, I gave this shit up in 1996. Been a long time since I thought about something this "deep." I was a Philosophy major.

SM, Oh please Sir if your ever in Ontario do stop in for a brew or two.
I could have some fun with you.

Saint John wrote:Being that we are a secondary cause of God, we have the ability to show imperfections. Because God is and always was, he is all virtuous, unlike us. I think we as humans have free will and thus our actions are completely independent of God's will. Therefore, something that is right is just as God is...completely virtuous. man, I gave this shit up in 1996. Been a long time since I thought about something this "deep." I was a Philosophy major.

I studied religion as a young teen and eat this shit up
quicker than cornflakes.


Please go on folks, I love the reads.

Socratic Methodist wrote:I'm not following that. What I am getting is you seem to favor the first option: Something is either right or wrong just because G-D says so. Am I right?

So lying wasn't wrong before G-D said it was?

Actually, I would lean towards the second one.

Again, it CANNOT be both. Something is either right BECAUSE G-D says so, or G-D says so because it IS right. Two separate issuess

It's a paradox but it can be both at least as far as we don't understand everything. I don't understand the concept of the trinity and how God can be three distinct personalities yet still one in essence but that doesn't mean it's not so. I may not understand why God says something is right or wrong but I can take it by faith that it is so. The Bible says "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1st Corinthians 13:12). In other words, we don't have clear understanding of all things right now but some day we will.

Dave's real good at this game SM, just so you know.

Socratic Methodist wrote:Again, it CANNOT be both. Something is either right BECAUSE G-D says so, or G-D says so because it IS right. Two separate issuess

Suppose 'God' commanded us to be faithful to a spouse. And in this case, the reason we should be faithful is simply that 'God' required it. Apart from the

divine command, being faithful is neither good nor bad. It is 'God's' command that makes fidelity right. And this leads to trouble, for it represents 'God's'

commands as arbitrary. 'God' could have given different commands just as easily. He could have commanded that lying be right. And you could reply

that 'God' would not command us to be liars. But why not? If he did endorse lying, he would not be commanding us to do wrong, because his command would

make lying right! Honesty was not right before 'God' commanded it. Therefore he had no more reason to command it than the opposite. Therefore, his

command is arbitrary.

And in this light, the concept of the goodness of 'God' is reduced to nonsense. To the pious, it is important that 'God' is all-knowing, and all-powerful, but also

that he is good. But if we accept the fact that the good and the bad are defined by the reference to 'God's' will, this notion is deprived of any meaning.

Imagine this: What could it mean to say that 'God's' commands are good? If 'y is good' simply means 'y is commanded by God', then 'God's commands are

good' would mean only that 'Gods commands are commanded by god', and this is an empty truism. I hope this helps.

For those people who believe in God, Supreme Being, Divine One - this being was around long before any of us, therefore the commands were written long before any of us were around to make the consideration. The commands were there before the cheating, lying, coveting, killing, honoring (or lack thereof)

For the faithful, unquestioning faith in the being would include faith in the commands that the being has given them - no matter how long ago the commands were made.

So even if your equation says that the commands are arbitray - the grandfather clause has kicked in.



Cat

Socratic Methodist wrote:Is something right because 'God' says so(the 'Because I said so' defense), or does 'God' say so because it is right?( right and wrong are INDEPENDENT of God's will)

I love this one.

I believe that anything "good" for someone can and is "evil" for another and vice versa. Nothing is purely good or purely evil.

Simply illustrated: the team that wins the championship is doing "good" for themselves however their good is "evil" for their opponent.

I love the line from DSB:
Some'll win, some'll lose, some are born to sing the blues...

Kind of reflects the idea that there's a polarized state (winning/losing) and another state where you find yourself caught between the two - neither winning nor losing rather just trying to survive.

Saint John wrote:Being that we are a secondary cause of God, we have the ability to show imperfections. Because God is and always was, he is all virtuous, unlike us. I think we as humans have free will and thus our actions are completely independent of God's will. Therefore, something that is right is just as God is...completely virtuous. man, I gave this shit up in 1996. Been a long time since I thought about something this "deep." I was a Philosophy major.

So you've not thought deeply since 1996, that figures as I kinda saw this trend in all of your posts

conversationpc wrote:

Socratic Methodist wrote:I'm not following that. What I am getting is you seem to favor the first option: Something is either right or wrong just because G-D says so. Am I right?

So lying wasn't wrong before G-D said it was?

Actually, I would lean towards the second one.

Again, it CANNOT be both. Something is either right BECAUSE G-D says so, or G-D says so because it IS right. Two separate issuess

It's a paradox but it can be both at least as far as we don't understand everything. I don't understand the concept of the trinity and how God can be three distinct personalities yet still one in essence but that doesn't mean it's not so. I may not understand why God says something is right or wrong but I can take it by faith that it is so. The Bible says "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1st Corinthians 13:12). In other words, we don't have clear understanding of all things right now but some day we will.

Dave's GOD

styxman wrote:

Saint John wrote:Being that we are a secondary cause of God, we have the ability to show imperfections. Because God is and always was, he is all virtuous, unlike us. I think we as humans have free will and thus our actions are completely independent of God's will. Therefore, something that is right is just as God is...completely virtuous. man, I gave this shit up in 1996. Been a long time since I thought about something this "deep." I was a Philosophy major.

So you've not thought deeply since 1996, that figures as I kinda saw this trend in all of your posts

Your just a bad ass sometimes Styxman, that was funny but damn
you English like that raw humor huh?

styxman wrote:
Dave's GOD

great crack up Sir!

Holy cow!!! NOW I have a headache.
Keep it up though. It's an interesting topic.

Now if we pick the second statement as true, we run into another set of pitfalls....


If we take this option, God's commands turn out to be not arbitrary. They result in him knowing what is best. And the concept of the goodness of God is

sustained. To say that his commands are good means that he commands only what, in perfect wisdom, he sees to be the best. And this option leads to

accepting that the theological notion of right and wrong must be abandoned. Cause if we say that God comands us to be faithful because faithfulness is right,

then we are admitting that there is some standard of right and wrong that is independent of God's will. We are saying that God recognizes or sees that

faithfulness is right - this is very different from him making it right. TThe rightness exists prior to and independent of God's command, and it is the reason for

the command.


Many religious people believe that they should accept a theological concept of right and wrong because it would be impious not to do so. They feel like if they

believe in God they should think about right and wrong defined in terms of his ultimate will. And this argument suggests otherwise in that it suggests that, on

the contrary, the divine command theory of right and wrong itself leads to impious results, so that a pious person should not accept it.

I guess theologians have their work cut out for them........lol

styxman wrote:

Saint John wrote:Being that we are a secondary cause of God, we have the ability to show imperfections. Because God is and always was, he is all virtuous, unlike us. I think we as humans have free will and thus our actions are completely independent of God's will. Therefore, something that is right is just as God is...completely virtuous. man, I gave this shit up in 1996. Been a long time since I thought about something this "deep." I was a Philosophy major.

So you've not thought deeply since 1996, that figures as I kinda saw this trend in all of your posts

Funny...though it didn't make sense. I clearly said "this deep." Using standard logic one could deduce that I have thought about "deep" things in the past decade, just not as deep. Nice try, though.

Moon Beam wrote:

Saint John wrote:Being that we are a secondary cause of God, we have the ability to show imperfections. Because God is and always was, he is all virtuous, unlike us. I think we as humans have free will and thus our actions are completely independent of God's will. Therefore, something that is right is just as God is...completely virtuous. man, I gave this shit up in 1996. Been a long time since I thought about something this "deep." I was a Philosophy major.

I studied religion as a young teen and eat this shit up
quicker than cornflakes.


Please go on folks, I love the reads.

Do you seriously think God has ventured into Canada Moon That was a whole lot of wasted religious education as a teen

Jesus Christ, is this Theologyrock.com or Melodicrock.com?

Nothing like a good ol religious debate, so fuck it, i'm in.

I believe in God, but I have to say, dude has his share of fuck ups. He wasn't "on his game" when he allowed a giant 80 mile wide storm come and swallow up New Orleans. That wasn't cool JC. Not at all. He actually had a bad month 2 years ago. Hurricane Jeanne and Ivan rolled over him and did some serious damage to the southeast and that crapheap of a state called Texas.

Seriously, God has some serious skills, but he coasts way too much. What was he thinking when he overlooked that massive earthquake and the attached Tsunami that wiped out thousands? He could have replaced the defective joystick and hit "reset" and avoided that fuckup. He is overall pretty tough regarding worldwide issues, but with people he needs to get some work in between innings. He was caught "asleep at the switch" when certain people were born. I would love to hear is thoughts about how OJ slipped through final birth inspection, or George W Bush for that matter. I wonder if G takes bribes from ex-presidents of the United States? Hell, one has to only turn the page to see more serious inconsistencies. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Kayne West are proven to be walking turds of shit, and maybe this proves God is African American? Seriously, how does Michael Jackson get approved for life on Earth? Then again, perhaps God is hip with the Carpet Pilot's Union? Osama, not Usama you Fox News Bastards, Saddam, Udey and Quesay, Arafat, and that ugly looking Iranian motherfucker, Ahmadinejad? There's a six pack of shit if I ever saw one. Let's not forget the Asian community. Kim Jong Ill is about as ugly, and evil as you get, and he is in power of the world's scariest state.

However, God is definitely a sports fan. You know he throws down hundreds on sports and none easier to manipulate than the good ol NBA. He bumps around, whispering in Tim Donaghy's ear, to call that phantom foul on Ray Allen whose Supersonics had the Lakers beat, but Kobe got two free one's to send it to OT and of course LA came out victorious. He also loves to wager on NFL over/under scenarios, and plays the arthritis card, when a 55 yr old back judge is limping down the sidelines of a Cardinal-Texan game, and completely blows an offensive interference penalty maintaining the 7-6 final from Houston. The over/under was 13 1/2.

God is great, God is good, just saying he has bad days sometimes.

Saint John wrote:

styxman wrote:

Saint John wrote:Being that we are a secondary cause of God, we have the ability to show imperfections. Because God is and always was, he is all virtuous, unlike us. I think we as humans have free will and thus our actions are completely independent of God's will. Therefore, something that is right is just as God is...completely virtuous. man, I gave this shit up in 1996. Been a long time since I thought about something this "deep." I was a Philosophy major.

So you've not thought deeply since 1996, that figures as I kinda saw this trend in all of your posts

Funny...though it didn't make sense. I clearly said "this deep." Using standard logic one could deduce that I have thought about "deep" things in the past decade, just not as deep. Nice try, though.

I love it when Methodist posts without even a comment on our constructive posts SM, you're on a roll with this religious stuff ain't ya

Very good poing, SM.

The ones that really piss me off are the ones that assume that since they profess to believe in God, everything they say or do themselves is good and true - therefore, everyone should take their word as the word of God.

ie - some TV evangelists (sorry, do not mean to offend any followers)

Cat

P.S. God sent me an email - everyone send me your money.

RockinDeano wrote:Jesus Christ, is this Theologyrock.com or Melodicrock.com?

Nothing like a good ol religious debate, so fuck it, i'm in.

I believe in God, but I have to say, dude has his share of fuck ups. He wasn't "on his game" when he allowed a giant 80 mile wide storm come and swallow up New Orleans. That wasn't cool JC. Not at all. He actually had a bad month 2 years ago. Hurricane Jeanne and Ivan rolled over him and did some serious damage to the southeast and that crapheap of a state called Texas.

Seriously, God has some serious skills, but he coasts way too much. What was he thinking when he overlooked that massive earthquake and the attached Tsunami that wiped out thousands? He could have replaced the defective joystick and hit "reset" and avoided that fuckup. He is overall pretty tough regarding worldwide issues, but with people he needs to get some work in between innings. He was caught "asleep at the switch" when certain people were born. I would love to hear is thoughts about how OJ slipped through final birth inspection, or George W Bush for that matter. I wonder if G takes bribes from ex-presidents of the United States? Hell, one has to only turn the page to see more serious inconsistencies. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Kayne West are proven to be walking turds of shit, and maybe this proves God is African American? Seriously, how does Michael Jackson get approved for life on Earth? Then again, perhaps God is hip with the Carpet Pilot's Union? Osama, not Usama you Fox News Bastards, Saddam, Udey and Quesay, Arafat, and that ugly looking Iranian motherfucker, Ahmadinejad? There's a six pack of shit if I ever saw one. Let's not forget the Asian community. Kim Jong Ill is about as ugly, and evil as you get, and he is in power of the world's scariest state.

However, God is definitely a sports fan. You know he throws down hundreds on sports and none easier to manipulate than the good ol NBA. He bumps around, whispering in Tim Donaghy's ear, to call that phantom foul on Ray Allen whose Supersonics had the Lakers beat, but Kobe got two free one's to send it to OT and of course LA came out victorious. He also loves to wager on NFL over/under scenarios, and plays the arthritis card, when a 55 yr old back judge is limping down the sidelines of a Cardinal-Texan game, and completely blows an offensive interference penalty maintaining the 7-6 final from Houston. The over/under was 13 1/2.

God is great, God is good, just saying he has bad days sometimes.

If God was great Dean, why the fuck can't he elevate the BA forum to No1. You'd better have a word with him tonight dude If you do ask him to send Faith Hill over to my place...Thanks