MR

Yep, certainly sounds like they tweaked Arnels voice big time in some of the songs, such as "Wheel In The Sky" "Seperate Ways" to mention a few, you can tell theres some un-natural sounds and note bending, only a computer can do, it's not natural at all. Being a good singer as Arnel is, still seems they can't help themselves, all this technology available.

Vladan wrote:Yep, certainly sounds like they tweaked Arnels voice big time in some of the songs, such as "Wheel In The Sky" "Seperate Ways" to mention a few, you can tell theres some un-natural sounds and note bending, only a computer can do, it's not natural at all. Being a good singer as Arnel is, still seems they can't help themselves, all this technology available.

Like I stated in another thread: Arnel has a great voice, but he doesn't know, fully, HOW to sing with that voice. And maybe it is just with the Dirty Dozen.

Help me out here, because I want to hear what you're hearing.
Can you give precise times on the tracks to look out for?
Thanks!

oops

Hey, see what you can do with Joe Elliott, cause I know his voice has been shot since about 1995, or so....unless it is just his 'live' voice. I've always thought that he was just a studio voice anyway....

Wasn't Arnel unwell during the recordings? He's WAY better now then when they recorded.

I have listened with keen ears for edits and pro tools cheating and even went as far as using Adobe audition on the tracks to extract the vocal which makes edits and pro tools "abuse" very obvious. I have heard not one thing that seems fishy. There are edits or comped vocals which is typical and has been a studio practice for years. Very few songs are ever sang in one take when you can stop after each verse and punch in to get the perfect track. Revelation has edits but not many. TBF on the other hand has SOOOOOOO many edits and man are they obvious when you extract the center channel and hear Perry with almost no effects on his voice and almost alone in the mix.

This has been one of the many reasons I have said that I am SURE his voice is shot because if he had to stop that much there must have been some big stamina issues. Message of Love is really bad about that. The last verse where he sings "Baby can you hear me" lower than he did earlier in the track right near the end sounds like he was vocally fatigued. Perry can no longer take certain notes and sustain them and let the note fade to nothing. As he gets quieter with the note and closes the note you can here this weird screeching sound come from his throat which gets hidden by effects most of the time.

Listen to One more from TBF for a great example of this because you can hear that weird sounds pretty clearly without using any mixing tools. During the part where he say NO more, No more, no more and it echoes a few times you can hear this screeching sound come from him as he finishes the word more and then it echos. Poor guy...



I dont doubt they used some tweaking on Arnel's voice but as we have seen from his live performances he can deliver. It was probably to save time and I heard that he was sick when they re-did the GH. Pro tools not only can correct bad notes It is also can take a word and stretch it out if the singers timing was off for instance. It isnt always used to make a bad singer sound good. With someone like Arnel is it way faster to punch in and take another stab at it instead of pro-tooling it.

Vladan wrote:Yep, certainly sounds like they tweaked Arnels voice big time in some of the songs, such as "Wheel In The Sky" "Seperate Ways" to mention a few, you can tell theres some un-natural sounds and note bending, only a computer can do, it's not natural at all. Being a good singer as Arnel is, still seems they can't help themselves, all this technology available.

are you saying that AP's voice during the UK tour was not sang live?

journeypower wrote:

Vladan wrote:Yep, certainly sounds like they tweaked Arnels voice big time in some of the songs, such as "Wheel In The Sky" "Seperate Ways" to mention a few, you can tell theres some un-natural sounds and note bending, only a computer can do, it's not natural at all. Being a good singer as Arnel is, still seems they can't help themselves, all this technology available.

are you saying that AP's voice during the UK tour was not sang live?

Where in the world in that statement do you come up with that?

Trial By Fire is the measuring stick upon which all protooled albums should be judged.

journeypower wrote:

Vladan wrote:Yep, certainly sounds like they tweaked Arnels voice big time in some of the songs, such as "Wheel In The Sky" "Seperate Ways" to mention a few, you can tell theres some un-natural sounds and note bending, only a computer can do, it's not natural at all. Being a good singer as Arnel is, still seems they can't help themselves, all this technology available.

are you saying that AP's voice during the UK tour was not sang live?

No, he's talking about Disc 2 of "Revelation", the re-recorded greatest hits.

on a sidenote, I believe it's logical to take advantage of that kind of technology that has been out since the last decade. mediocre artists such as Beyonce, Britney, Jessica and others are able to sound and sing extraordinarily on the recordings but sounded way different on live performances. besides, it's been a known and accepted fact by the majority that studio recordings sounded better due to the editing, mixing and rest periods done during those sessions (with the exception of very few artists that really are good on live performances).

as far as tweaking AP's voice in the recordings, my ears tells me that the live version is as good or even better compared to the studio version.

"Listen to One more from TBF for a great example of this because you can hear that weird sounds pretty clearly without using any mixing tools. During the part where he say NO more, No more, no more and it echoes a few times you can hear this screeching sound come from him as he finishes the word more and then it echos. Poor guy... "

This sounds like Steve is doing a type of yodel at the end of certain words or phrases. He quickly allows his voice to flutter to head voice for a brief instance for "effect". Granted, he does this alot on TBF, but I'm not 100% sure it's due to fatigue. Country singers do this alot as well, sometimes too much, especially when transitioning from very loud high notes at the end of a phrase, etc.

Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

Onestepper wrote:

journeypower wrote:

Vladan wrote:Yep, certainly sounds like they tweaked Arnels voice big time in some of the songs, such as "Wheel In The Sky" "Seperate Ways" to mention a few, you can tell theres some un-natural sounds and note bending, only a computer can do, it's not natural at all. Being a good singer as Arnel is, still seems they can't help themselves, all this technology available.

are you saying that AP's voice during the UK tour was not sang live?

Where in the world in that statement do you come up with that?

just making comparisons man. AP's voice during the UK tour is somewhat tweaked. I heard that he sounded like a roach in real life.

journeypower wrote:

Onestepper wrote:

journeypower wrote:

Vladan wrote:Yep, certainly sounds like they tweaked Arnels voice big time in some of the songs, such as "Wheel In The Sky" "Seperate Ways" to mention a few, you can tell theres some un-natural sounds and note bending, only a computer can do, it's not natural at all. Being a good singer as Arnel is, still seems they can't help themselves, all this technology available.

are you saying that AP's voice during the UK tour was not sang live?

Where in the world in that statement do you come up with that?

just making comparisons man. AP's voice during the UK tour is somewhat tweaked. I heard that he sounded like a roach in real life.

Ah. Had not heard that. Roach's have long life cycles

texafana wrote:Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

Saint John wrote:

texafana wrote:Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

This basically confirms what Stu told me he had heard from Ross a while back.

conversationpc wrote:

Saint John wrote:

texafana wrote:Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

This basically confirms what Stu told me he had heard from Ross a while back.

And why the guys were so frustrated that Perry had to do take after take after take after take. Escape was cut in a few weeks and Street Talk was done in 3 weeks and they're masterpieces. Why this dude won't come forward and say that his voice is gone is beyond me. I believe TBF was done solely to break up the revamped lineup and eliminate Herbie. He cannot face the fact that he can no longer front and tour for Journey. People age, man...it's ok, Steve.

Saint John wrote:

conversationpc wrote:

Saint John wrote:

texafana wrote:Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

This basically confirms what Stu told me he had heard from Ross a while back.

And why the guys were so frustrated that Perry had to do take after take after take after take. Escape was cut in a few weeks and Street Talk was done in 3 weeks and they're masterpieces. Why this dude won't come forward and say that his voice is gone is beyond me. I believe TBF was done solely to break up the revamped lineup and eliminate Herbie. He cannot face the fact that he can no longer front and tour for Journey. People age, man...it's ok, Steve.

This is why I admired Brad Delp so much in this respect. Guy flat out admitted during the 2004 show I went to that Fran Cosmo was the guy who could hit all the high notes that he couldn't get to anymore.

Saint John wrote:

conversationpc wrote:

Saint John wrote:

texafana wrote:Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

This basically confirms what Stu told me he had heard from Ross a while back.

And why the guys were so frustrated that Perry had to do take after take after take after take. Escape was cut in a few weeks and Street Talk was done in 3 weeks and they're masterpieces. Why this dude won't come forward and say that his voice is gone is beyond me. I believe TBF was done solely to break up the revamped lineup and eliminate Herbie. He cannot face the fact that he can no longer front and tour for Journey. People age, man...it's ok, Steve.

While I don't agree that Street Talk is a masterpiece, I thought he said in the 84 interview that it took almost 6 months to do ST?

Onestepper wrote:

Saint John wrote:

conversationpc wrote:

Saint John wrote:

texafana wrote:Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

This basically confirms what Stu told me he had heard from Ross a while back.

And why the guys were so frustrated that Perry had to do take after take after take after take. Escape was cut in a few weeks and Street Talk was done in 3 weeks and they're masterpieces. Why this dude won't come forward and say that his voice is gone is beyond me. I believe TBF was done solely to break up the revamped lineup and eliminate Herbie. He cannot face the fact that he can no longer front and tour for Journey. People age, man...it's ok, Steve.

While I don't agree that Street Talk is a masterpiece, I thought he said in the 84 interview that it took almost 6 months to do ST?

Per the GQ interview:

"So after Neal did his second solo album, I went to LA, and in about three weeks, I wrote Street Talk, which was a bit of a nod to the earlier band, and to the bass player who’d passed, and with some great studio musicians and cowriters, we just knocked the record out and we released it."

Saint John wrote:No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

That's a Grammy nominated patched together shit stain.
Despite a hyperglycemic ballad-heavy track list, TBF showcases Journey at their best.

texafana wrote:"Listen to One more from TBF for a great example of this because you can hear that weird sounds pretty clearly without using any mixing tools. During the part where he say NO more, No more, no more and it echoes a few times you can hear this screeching sound come from him as he finishes the word more and then it echos. Poor guy... "

This sounds like Steve is doing a type of yodel at the end of certain words or phrases. He quickly allows his voice to flutter to head voice for a brief instance for "effect". Granted, he does this alot on TBF, but I'm not 100% sure it's due to fatigue. Country singers do this alot as well, sometimes too much, especially when transitioning from very loud high notes at the end of a phrase, etc.

Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

Its a pretty simple thing to do I guess but I am telling you that it will change your opinion of that album when you hear him "almost naked". Drums and guitar bleed through but you mostly hear Perry. I will see what I can do but as I am at work right now I need to get back to ummm hehe work...... I will see if I have time tonight and upload it somewhere.

conversationpc wrote:This is why I admired Brad Delp so much in this respect. Guy flat out admitted during the 2004 show I went to that Fran Cosmo was the guy who could hit all the high notes that he couldn't get to anymore.

The interesting thing about Brad was he always insisted the songs be done in their original key as opposed to being lowered. Even though Fran helped, Brad could definitely hit most of the notes himself with Fran taking over a couple of the really earth-shattering high ones.

What Fran really did, though, was give Boston a better live sound. All those harmonies of Brad on the record now came across way better live with another high tenor filling in the harmony parts.

Saint John wrote:

Onestepper wrote:

Saint John wrote:

conversationpc wrote:

Saint John wrote:

texafana wrote:Any chance of you slicing up Steve Perry's vox on Message Of Love so we can hear it isolated? Thanks.

No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

This basically confirms what Stu told me he had heard from Ross a while back.

And why the guys were so frustrated that Perry had to do take after take after take after take. Escape was cut in a few weeks and Street Talk was done in 3 weeks and they're masterpieces. Why this dude won't come forward and say that his voice is gone is beyond me. I believe TBF was done solely to break up the revamped lineup and eliminate Herbie. He cannot face the fact that he can no longer front and tour for Journey. People age, man...it's ok, Steve.

While I don't agree that Street Talk is a masterpiece, I thought he said in the 84 interview that it took almost 6 months to do ST?

Per the GQ interview:

"So after Neal did his second solo album, I went to LA, and in about three weeks, I wrote Street Talk, which was a bit of a nod to the earlier band, and to the bass player who’d passed, and with some great studio musicians and cowriters, we just knocked the record out and we released it."

Got it. He made it sound differently in the interview, but he may have been referencing the entire process with promotion.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Saint John wrote:No...please don't. Someone sent me part of ICSIIYE awhile back and I almost cried. That album is nothing more than a patched together shit stain. The ballads are the only songs that are somewhat legit. I can honestly say that I no longer can blame him for not touring. He just shouldn't have strung the guys along and acted as if he was ever going to.

That's a Grammy nominated patched together shit stain.
Despite a hyperglycemic ballad-heavy track list, TBF showcases Journey at their best.

Not vocally it doesn't!!! No way. I would consider something to be "their best" if they can honestly come close to replicating it live. Musically they could, but not vocally.

Here's the thing guys and gals. If you've never been in a studio doing vocals, you might not know this. When I first started recording, in the late 80's, we did take after take after take after take, we'd punch in we'd do everything we could to get the "perfect" vocal. I'm positive that's how Journey and everyone else did it. Sure, there are those instances where a vocalist gets it 100% from beginning to end, but they are rare.

All pro tools does is save time. Pro-tools can not make you a good singer. It takes tone, breath, phrasing and the actual ability to sing.

I did a duet a couple of years ago, and really hadn't recorded in an all digitial format before. We did two takes of the song. We (each singer) had little flat parts, little spots that weren't "perfect" so they fixed them with pro-tools. I would have spent hundred of dollars doing back in and redoing the vocals, but with pro-tools, I didn't have to.

Sure, if you're having to use pro-tools on ever word or more than a couple of times throughout a song, it's kind of like cheating, but there's nothing better for saving time and helping out with those little spots that just aren't "perfect".

Now the crap I do here at home, I don't mind a few flat parts, for emotion but no one wants a distracting note popping up in a song and it staying there for ever.

For Neal to keep complaining about "pro-tools" and having to had use them with Augeri or whatever is bullshit. Steve Augeri can sing. Steve Perry can sing. Arnel Pineda can sing. The little fixing they might have gotten in the studio is nothing compared to what those men were capable of.

The only thing that went wrong is Journey expecting those voices to hold up time after time singing in full voice in the original keys.

Perry has stated numerous times that he was a perfectionist when he sang. He'd do take after take until he knew he 'nailed it'. But I do think that is completely different from having to do take after take because the voice is just not there. I'm sure if there was frustration from the other band members, it was more about that than his well known need to make sure the take was perfect.

If it was so "pieced together" and Perry was so bad and vocally "exhausted" and Ross agreed etc. then, why did the band even want to go out on the road to support it with Perry??!

Something doesn't add up...

Tomulator wrote:If it was so "pieced together" and Perry was so bad and vocally "exhausted" and Ross agreed etc. then, why did the band even want to go out on the road to support it with Perry??!

Something doesn't add up...

Because it was Perry. Perry equaled butts in seats. Replacing him with an unknown didn't guarantee anything. Obviously they became okay with it over time when they couldn't get the voice to agree to tour.