"Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

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"Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby DracIsBack » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:11 am

Every time a band gets inducted to the Hall of Fame, it's amazing how many people come out of the woodwork to complain, "Why isn't the replacement for the famous guy being inducted?"

It actually boggles my mind. I saw it last year with Chicago. "Why isn't Jason Scheff inducted? He's been there twice as long as Peter Cetera". I see it this year with Journey. "Why isn't Arnel Pineda inducted? He's the longest tenured singer". If Styx or Foreigner get in, it will be "Why not Kelly Hansen and Lawrence Gowan".

The answer is simple, people: You don't get into the hall of fame for covering oldies that someone else made famous!"

Arnel didn't co-write or sing the record for the top downloaded song of all time. Steve Perry did. Jason Scheff didn't sing, play bass or cowrite music on any of the eight simultaneous charting Chicago albums in the mid-1970s. Peter Cetera did. Ask Joe Q Public to name the best known Foreigner songs and they likely won't name a single song that Kelly Hansen made the record of.

It has nothing to do with their tenure. Nothing to do with talent. Nothing to do with keeping the music alive in concerts. Nothing to do with being swell guys. And nothing to do with whether or not a subset of hardcore fans like cult albums that the replacements have been on.

This is the hall of fame eligibility

"Artists—a group encompassing performers, composers and/or musicians—become eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first record. Besides demonstrating unquestionable musical excellence and talent, inductees will have had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll."

Nowhere in that does it say, "Or the number of concerts performed by a replacement member covering songs that someone else made famous"

No, sales are not everything, but you can bet that the artists aren't inducted on the basis of albums that no one bought either. There's a reason Dunbar and Smith are inducted (Cough: Infinity and Escape) but Castronovo is not (No one bought his albums except hardcore fans)
Last edited by DracIsBack on Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby scarab » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:59 am

I truly think the Hall nails it on this one, even though I have never been a fan of it.

You could argue that Jason Scheff should be in there along with Bill Champlin, but that era of Chicago while still hit a machine were churning out Diane Warren bubble gum ballads, nothing like the Chicago band that definetley earned the nod.
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby DracIsBack » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:56 am

scarab wrote:You could argue that Jason Scheff should be in there along with Bill Champlin, but that era of Chicago while still hit a machine were churning out Diane Warren bubble gum ballads, nothing like the Chicago band that definetley earned the nod.


Yes, I think there is a very good case for Scheff and Champlin (and De Oliveira and Dacus) to be inducted alongside the originals. More than the Kelly Hansens of the world, because they had hits of their own.
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby UncleKG » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:50 am

Then I'll ask you to explain why all members of the Red Hot Chili Peppers were inducted...as well as a lot of members of the Grateful Dead who weren't a part of the "important" lineups. Also, it can be argued that KISS got quite a bit of airplay with their post-originals lineup ("Lick It Up," "Forever" and "Unholy," for example), so why not (at least) Vinnie Vincent and Eric Carr?
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby scarab » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:22 am

all members of the peppers were not inducted.
As for Kiss, who after they became unmasked, were just another "hair band". I wonder when Warrant will make it in.
The Dead had many players, who were not replaced, most of all Garcia.
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby Memorex » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:48 am

UncleKG wrote:Then I'll ask you to explain why all members of the Red Hot Chili Peppers were inducted...as well as a lot of members of the Grateful Dead who weren't a part of the "important" lineups. Also, it can be argued that KISS got quite a bit of airplay with their post-originals lineup ("Lick It Up," "Forever" and "Unholy," for example), so why not (at least) Vinnie Vincent and Eric Carr?


It's not about airplay or even sales. It's about what a member did to contribute to changing or shaping music in general. Perfect example is Sammy Hagar. He came into Van Halen and changed things. His work in that band affected music in general. Arnel or these others have not done that or come anywhere close to that. Even if they have done wonders for the band itself. No artists out there are going wow, look what Arnel is doing. It's so new and fresh.

I do think some members get in simply because they are part of a core group. But other than that...
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby JourneyHard » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:11 am

Let's pretend "Remember Me" was actually featured in the movie Armageddon and played in its entirety during the movie, and then became a hit song. Would Steve Augeri be inducted into the Hall of Fame with Journey?
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby scarab » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:31 am

JourneyHard wrote:Let's pretend "Remember Me" was actually featured in the movie Armageddon and played in its entirety during the movie, and then became a hit song. Would Steve Augeri be inducted into the Hall of Fame with Journey?


It was suppose to be the song during end credits (Funeral scene). Sad (they picked a Dianne Warren song), still my favorite Augeri led song.
And if Augeri led Journey could sustain the hits, yes, but Journey has not hit the top 40 (US singles) since TBF.
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby UncleKG » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:59 am

scarab wrote:all members of the peppers were not inducted.


You're right. I stand corrected. Then I ask, why was their current guitarist inducted?
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby Memorex » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:50 am

JourneyHard wrote:Let's pretend "Remember Me" was actually featured in the movie Armageddon and played in its entirety during the movie, and then became a hit song. Would Steve Augeri be inducted into the Hall of Fame with Journey?


Meghan Trainor had a hit song too. I rest my case.
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby DracIsBack » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:30 pm

Memorex wrote:It's not about airplay or even sales. It's about what a member did to contribute to changing or shaping music in general. Perfect example is Sammy Hagar. He came into Van Halen and changed things. His work in that band affected music in general. Arnel or these others have not done that or come anywhere close to that. Even if they have done wonders for the band itself. No artists out there are going wow, look what Arnel is doing. It's so new and fresh.

I do think some members get in simply because they are part of a core group. But other than that...


Exactly. And Hagar is the perfect example. Love him or hate him, millions of people bought his Van Halen albums, attended his shows and he had a massive part of Van Halen's overall career.

No disrespect to Arnel, Augeri or Deen as people or in terms of talent but ....

You don't get into the Hall of Fame for playing oldies that someone else made famous. And it hasn't been 25 years since any of them had their first recording with the band.

And please, for the love of god, no one try and quote how many copies Revelation sold as proof of Arnel's worthiness. It sold that many because it was bundled with a re-recorded greatest hits, a live concert DVD and sold for a cheap price. Without it, it would have likely had figures like Arrival or Eclipse.
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby JourneyHard » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:42 am

Millions of people attend Journey shows with Arnel on lead vocals. Just sayin'
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby tj » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:02 am

scarab wrote:I truly think the Hall nails it on this one, even though I have never been a fan of it.

You could argue that Jason Scheff should be in there along with Bill Champlin, but that era of Chicago while still hit a machine were churning out Diane Warren bubble gum ballads, nothing like the Chicago band that definetley earned the nod.


Both Champlin and Scheff contributed significantly to songwriting and some hits with Chicago. Granted, several of their late 80's crap was Dianne Warren drivel, but Aerosmith, Bad English, etc. have all had hits with her songs as well (sadly, IMO, but they were hits and made the bands a lot of money).
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby tj » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:05 am

JourneyHard wrote:Millions of people attend Journey shows with Arnel on lead vocals. Just sayin'


And they are great shows. Arnel is a great frontman for Journey. The ROR HOF is all over the map (Tupac Shakur in the same ROR HOF as Yes?? :roll:), so a case can be made for just about anyone who has ever had a hit record or played in a band that once had hit records to be in as far as I am concerned.
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Re: "Why isn't the replacement being inducted?"

Postby DracIsBack » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:46 pm

JourneyHard wrote:Millions of people attend Journey shows with Arnel on lead vocals. Just sayin'


And if the award was for "Number of concert tickets sold where someone sings decades old songs that someone else made famous", he'd be included. Just saying

You don't get into the hall of fame for covering oldies, you get in for music you created that made an impact.

... I'm not sure why this is hard for people to comprehend
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