Deen says "No Journey"...

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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Monker » Mon May 01, 2017 4:42 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Monker wrote:[
Oh, how soon people forget that Revelation was platinum and Eclipse wasn't even gold, and Revelation was #5 on the charts for weeks. Eclipse debuted at #13 and then dropped off the charts in weeks. Eclipse sold around 100,000 copies. Eclipse had no charting singles, as far as I know while Revelation had several on the AC chart, "After All These Years" was charting for weeks. All of this despite people on this forum making prediction on when it would go platinum and how high the singles would chart and all kinds of stupid things.

Yes, can go and whine about Eclipse being a package and double counts for being platinum (and even then it sold 800,000 or so packages...completely eclipsing Eclipse). The fans embraced Revelation by any measure...and I hate saying that because I'm no fan of the album or its dated retro sound. The fans put their money down for this $12 set of CD/DVD/remake CD...and they didn't for Eclipse. The fans who came out of the woodwork to make Revelation a hit album, vanished when Eclipse was released....700,000 of them - at least.

Maybe I can't "prove" a backlash because of the change in sound...but, to say fans did not embrace any post-Perry "stuff" is not true. To go from the level of success they had with Revelation back to where they were pror, is disappointing at best.


I have not forgotten any of that. You mention that Eclipse flopped, but conveniently ignore that all post-Perry cds of new material (Arrival, Red 13, Generations ) either disappointed or flat-out bombed. We have a precedent of the band doing consistently well when selling the hits. Not surprisingly, Revelation included a cd and a dvd of hits. You may as well argue that the Vegas 2001 DVD sold well because it had 2 Arrival tracks on it. Makes as much sense. :roll:


Quit lying and saying I said things I didn't. I did NOT say Eclipse "flopped" That is an outright lie.

You said that the fans did not "embrace" any Journey "stuff". The facts show that you are wrong, the fans embraced Revelation in a big way. You don't know WHY. Sure, you can guess. But, the FACT remains that they embraced it.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Journey/Survivor » Mon May 01, 2017 10:56 am

And Journey were not on Oprah and Ellen and CBS's morning show during the Eclipse tour, which they were when Revelation was released. Those shows helped Revelation's sales a lot.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby George_g888 » Mon May 01, 2017 11:11 am

Journey/Survivor wrote:And Journey were not on Oprah and Ellen and CBS's morning show during the Eclipse tour, which they were when Revelation was released. Those shows helped Revelation's sales a lot.


They did the Today Show & appeared on CBS Sunday morning in 2011
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Mon May 01, 2017 10:51 pm

Monker wrote:Quit lying and saying I said things I didn't. I did NOT say Eclipse "flopped" That is an outright lie.


When you say an album barely charted and dropped immediately off the charts that is the equivalent of a flop. Deal with it. If you don't want to be paraphrased, stay off of message forums.

Monker wrote:You said that the fans did not "embrace" any Journey "stuff". The facts show that you are wrong, the fans embraced Revelation in a big way.

No, I said fans have not embraced any post-Perry original material. And that is 100% accurate. If Revelation was released without a hits cd and a hits dvd, it would have had middling sales at best.

Monker wrote:You don't know WHY. Sure, you can guess. But, the FACT remains that they embraced it.

The only one guessing is you. We have an empirical pattern of every non-Perry release of original material (Arrival, Red 13, Generations, Eclipse) faring poorly - except when they release hits (Vegas 2001 dvd, Revelation, Manilla dvd).
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Mon May 01, 2017 10:56 pm

Journey/Survivor wrote:And Journey were not on Oprah and Ellen and CBS's morning show during the Eclipse tour, which they were when Revelation was released. Those shows helped Revelation's sales a lot.


They did have a segment on CBS around the time of Eclipse. But it focused mostly on Arnel revisiting Manilla. CBS had no interest in promoting new material. Journey was also on NBC Today show and played City of Hope live. But obviously, the publicity/hype was nowhere near where it was for Revelation.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Monker » Tue May 02, 2017 4:41 am

When you say an album barely charted and dropped immediately off the charts that is the equivalent of a flop.


You're lying again. I did not say any of that, either.

I simply gave the FACTS...and intentionaly offered NO OPINION on those facts. I stated where it debuted on the charts and it fell off a few weeks later. I did not insult Eclipse by calling it a flop. I did not demean it by saying it "barely charted". Or, demean it by saying it "immediately fell off."

ALL OF THESE STATEMENTS ARE YOUR OPINIONS given the FACTS that I posted. YOU are calling it a "flop". YOU are saying it barely charted and immediately fell off. *I* am not saying any of this.

No, I said fans have not embraced any post-Perry original material.


Now you are lying about what YOU said. An exact quote from few posts up in this thread, "The overall fans have never embraced post-Perry stuff at all."

if you are going to post on an internet forum, perhaps you should stop trying to apply words and opinion onto other people and accept what they say without adding your own meaning to it. When YOU post, stand by what you said and don't try to change it later.

And that is 100% accurate. If Revelation was released without a hits cd and a hits dvd, it would have had middling sales at best.


Now, you are writing fiction and inventing alternate timelines. NOBODY knows what would have happened if Revelation were released differently. It is PURE speculation and science fiction.

If Revelation were sold on it's own they could have dropped the price of the CD. So, if it cost $7.99, I could see it selling just as well.

The only one guessing is you. We have an empirical pattern of every non-Perry release of original material (Arrival, Red 13, Generations, Eclipse) faring poorly - except when they release hits (Vegas 2001 dvd, Revelation, Manilla dvd).


Arrival sold around 300,000 copies and had a minor A/C hit with "All the Way"...even that is better than Eclipse.

Red 13 is an EP so you really can't compare it with a full albums.

Generations was given away at concerts so again, can't really compare it to Eclipse since so many people got Generations for "free".

Also, both Red 13 and Generations had underwhelming releases by minor labels, like Frontiers. Eclipse was at Wal-Mart - exactly as Revelation.

I think Red 13 was available only on the Journey website for a while, until it was picked up by a distributor. Generations was rereleased with better production and distributed to retail. Maybe somebody else remembers the details a bit better...in any case, it was completely different than being an exclusive for Wal-Mart. Apples and Oranges. Revelation was an exclusive to Wal-Mart, same as Eclipse - apples to apples.

You are GUESSING why the 2001 DVD sold well. You are GUESSING why Revelation sold well. IMO, the 2001 DVD sold because the band had at least two tours behind them so people had a reason to pick up a momento if they saw any of those concerts. Also, the BTM was a big promo of that DVD...the most viewed BTM MTV broadcast. IMO, Revelation sold simply because of its price (12.99). If it had been priced relative to what you got, say $20, I don't think it would have sold well at all...and it was also benefiting from the entire Arnel story and DSB being popularized yet again.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue May 02, 2017 5:43 am

Monker wrote:You're lying again. I did not say any of that, either.

I simply gave the FACTS...and intentionaly offered NO OPINION on those facts. I stated where it debuted on the charts and it fell off a few weeks later. I did not insult Eclipse by calling it a flop. I did not demean it by saying it "barely charted". Or, demean it by saying it "immediately fell off."

ALL OF THESE STATEMENTS ARE YOUR OPINIONS given the FACTS that I posted. YOU are calling it a "flop". YOU are saying it barely charted and immediately fell off. *I* am not saying any of this.


You have offered your opinion on Eclipse on this forum multiple times. Zzzzzzzz.

Monker wrote:Now you are lying about what YOU said. An exact quote from few posts up in this thread, "The overall fans have never embraced post-Perry stuff at all."


That is accurate. But that is not what you claimed I said. You wrote (quote below):

Monker wrote: “You said that the fans did not "embrace" any Journey "stuff". The facts show that you are wrong, the fans embraced Revelation in a big way.


I don’t know what “Journey stuff” is. But we do have multiple examples that post-Perry original Journey material has not sold well.

Monker wrote:if you are going to post on an internet forum, perhaps you should stop trying to apply words and opinion onto other people and accept what they say without adding your own meaning to it. When YOU post, stand by what you said and don't try to change it later.


I do stand by what I said. But I never said that fans don’t embrace “Journey stuff.”
“Journey Stuff” entails everything from concert tickets to T-shirts to past Greatest Hits compilations.

Monker wrote:Now, you are writing fiction and inventing alternate timelines. NOBODY knows what would have happened if Revelation were released differently. It is PURE speculation and science fiction.


We have a precedent of four different Journey albums comprised of original material being duds.

Monker wrote:If Revelation were sold on its own they could have dropped the price of the CD. So, if it cost $7.99, I could see it selling just as well.


And do you have any proof of post-Perry Journey cds of original material selling well on their own? That’s what I thought.

Monker wrote:Arrival sold around 300,000 copies and had a minor A/C hit with "All the Way"...even that is better than Eclipse.


Following Arrival, Cain swore off anymore full albums and the band continued to blame Napster for the album's lack of success. It was a humiliating failure for the guys following TBF. And every subsequent release of original non-Perry material has been given a similar tepid response.

Monker wrote:Red 13 is an EP so you really can't compare it with a full albums.


Why? It was carried retail.

Monker wrote:Generations was given away at concerts so again, can't really compare it to Eclipse since so many people got Generations for "free".


Like Arrival and Red 13, Generations was carried in brick and mortar stores. You are moving the goal posts.

Monker wrote:Also, both Red 13 and Generations had underwhelming releases by minor labels, like Frontiers. Eclipse was at Wal-Mart - exactly as Revelation.


Frontiers did not distribute either of those albums in the US. Wrong again.

Monker wrote:You are GUESSING why the 2001 DVD sold well. You are GUESSING why Revelation sold well. IMO, the 2001 DVD sold because the band had at least two tours behind them so people had a reason to pick up a momento if they saw any of those concerts. Also, the BTM was a big promo of that DVD...the most viewed BTM MTV broadcast. IMO, Revelation sold simply because of its price (12.99). If it had been priced relative to what you got, say $20, I don't think it would have sold well at all...and it was also benefiting from the entire Arnel story and DSB being popularized yet again.


And YOU are guessing that Revelation sold well because of original Perry-less material. The lackluster sales of Arrival, Red 13, Generations, and Eclipse all prove that to be false. You have no evidence that original material w/out Perry is commercially viable. Never was, still isn't.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Monker » Tue May 02, 2017 11:00 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Monker wrote:You're lying again. I did not say any of that, either.

I simply gave the FACTS...and intentionaly offered NO OPINION on those facts. I stated where it debuted on the charts and it fell off a few weeks later. I did not insult Eclipse by calling it a flop. I did not demean it by saying it "barely charted". Or, demean it by saying it "immediately fell off."

ALL OF THESE STATEMENTS ARE YOUR OPINIONS given the FACTS that I posted. YOU are calling it a "flop". YOU are saying it barely charted and immediately fell off. *I* am not saying any of this.


You have offered your opinion on Eclipse on this forum multiple times. Zzzzzzzz.


Great...if you want to comment on my opinion of Eclipse you can find one of those other posts and reply to that one instead...because I am offering NO opinion of Eclipse here - YOU ARE.

Monker wrote:Now you are lying about what YOU said. An exact quote from few posts up in this thread, "The overall fans have never embraced post-Perry stuff at all."


That is accurate. But that is not what you claimed I said. You wrote (quote below):

Monker wrote: “You said that the fans did not "embrace" any Journey "stuff". The facts show that you are wrong, the fans embraced Revelation in a big way.


I don’t know what “Journey stuff” is.


WTF! LOOK at what you are quoting. I put quotes around "stuff" because THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID. I did NOT put quotes around Journey. Therefore, you are misquoting me AGAIN. I said 'Journey "stuff"' BECAUSE you said "post-Perry stuff" and I changed "post-Perry" to "Journey" so it made more sense - and I DID NOT PUT QUOTES AROUND IT BECAUSE YOU DIDN"T SAY IT. And, it is even in context because Revelation is "post-Perry stuff" - which is what you said!

You don't know what "Journey stuff" is because you don't want to concede an argument that you can't win. Get over it already.

I do stand by what I said. But I never said that fans don’t embrace “Journey stuff.”


No, you said "post-Perry stuff"....and the fans DID embrace Revelation - in a big way.

“Journey Stuff” entails everything from concert tickets to T-shirts to past Greatest Hits compilations.


And, you can say the same about "post-Perry stuff". You do realize these are YOUR WORDS you are arguing against, right?

Monker wrote:Now, you are writing fiction and inventing alternate timelines. NOBODY knows what would have happened if Revelation were released differently. It is PURE speculation and science fiction.


We have a precedent of four different Journey albums comprised of original material being duds.


Which has NOTHING to do with the quote you made, which when put in context is replying to your fictional idea of Revelation being released on its own. You do not know how that would have changed things.

Monker wrote:If Revelation were sold on its own they could have dropped the price of the CD. So, if it cost $7.99, I could see it selling just as well.


And do you have any proof of post-Perry Journey cds of original material selling well on their own? That’s what I thought.


That was not the argument....YOU SAID, the fans did not embrace "post-Perry Stuff". They did with Revelation. Period.

Monker wrote:Arrival sold around 300,000 copies and had a minor A/C hit with "All the Way"...even that is better than Eclipse.


Following Arrival, Cain swore off anymore full albums and the band continued to blame Napster for the album's lack of success. It was a humiliating failure for the guys following TBF. And every subsequent release of original non-Perry material has been given a similar tepid response.


None of that changes the FACT that Arrival sold three times what Eclipse did, and it even had a minor hit single. Red 13 and Generation were not released in a way that would even garner that type of support.

I remember on BT posting that since they were releasing Red 13 on their own that it could sell significantly less and make the band the same amount of money....selling 100,000 copies is probably making Journey the same as a platinum album would. Allen Craft replied and said I was absolutely correct and that is why they were doing it. It was an EXPERIMENT in releasing music on their website. Red 13 was LATER picked up by distributors and sent to Best Buy etc. To compare it to a release by Wal-Mart is just wrong...apples to oranges.

Generations was given away at almost all of their concerts for that tour. It was LATER released by Sanctuary. So, you haven an album that had tens of thousands of copies GIVEN AWAY and then went to retail. Those sales can't be compared to a Wal-Mart exclusive like Eclipse. Again, it's apples to oranges.

Monker wrote:Also, both Red 13 and Generations had underwhelming releases by minor labels, like Frontiers. Eclipse was at Wal-Mart - exactly as Revelation.


Frontiers did not distribute either of those albums in the US. Wrong again.


If you actually read my post, you will see that I SAID I wasn't sure.

Monker wrote:IMO, Revelation sold simply because of its price (12.99). If it had been priced relative to what you got, say $20, I don't think it would have sold well at all...and it was also benefiting from the entire Arnel story and DSB being popularized yet again.


And YOU are guessing that Revelation sold well because of original Perry-less material.
[/quote]

You do know how to read, correct? Every post you make a full of lies. I did not say any of that, just read what you quoted above.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Tue May 02, 2017 11:45 am

Monker wrote:Great...if you want to comment on my opinion of Eclipse you can find one of those other posts and reply to that one instead...because I am offering NO opinion of Eclipse here - YOU ARE.


Selectively discussing the charting position of Eclipse, while ignoring the low sales of the majority of recent Journey cds, is transparently biased. How is that not expressing an opinion? Your agenda is showing.

Monker wrote:WTF! LOOK at what you are quoting. I put quotes around "stuff" because THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID. I did NOT put quotes around Journey. Therefore, you are misquoting me AGAIN. I said 'Journey "stuff"' BECAUSE you said "post-Perry stuff" and I changed "post-Perry" to "Journey" so it made more sense - and I DID NOT PUT QUOTES AROUND IT BECAUSE YOU DIDN"T SAY IT. And, it is even in context because Revelation is "post-Perry stuff" - which is what you said!


So rather than quote what I actually said, you admit that you pulled a few words out of context, changed the words around, and pretty much distorted it to fit your own agenda. Ah, very good.

Monker wrote:You don't know what "Journey stuff" is because you don't want to concede an argument that you can't win. Get over it already.


Journey stuff is pretty all encompassing. I said post-Perry material. Y'know, unsuccessful albums like Arrival, Red 13, Generations etc.

Monker wrote:No, you said "post-Perry stuff"....and the fans DID embrace Revelation - in a big way.


Revelation sold well like all the hits packages have so far. For all you know, Revelation was embraced by Tony Soprano fans.

Monker wrote:And, you can say the same about "post-Perry stuff". You do realize these are YOUR WORDS you are arguing against, right?

Not really. I see Escape-era T-shirts at the mall. Nobody is selling Generations or Revelation T-shirts. Other post-Perry stuff like concert sales and DVDs have done well because of the hits.

Monker wrote:Which has NOTHING to do with the quote you made, which when put in context is replying to your fictional idea of Revelation being released on its own. You do not know how that would have changed things.


All previous cds of post-Perry original material have not done well commercially, while hits packages (like Manila and Vegas dvd) have. It only stands to reason. There is at least a track record to inform my opinion. Your idea that Revelation sold well based on the strength of new songs has no basis in anything other than wishful thinking.

Monker wrote:That was not the argument....YOU SAID, the fans did not embrace "post-Perry Stuff". They did with Revelation. Period.


2/3 of Revelation is all Perry-era material. Try again. If anything Eclipse's sales performance is a damning referendum on Revelation. I guess those fans didn't like what they heard on Revelation to come back for seconds.

Monker wrote:None of that changes the FACT that Arrival sold three times what Eclipse did, and it even had a minor hit single.

Back then the record industry still existed and Itunes wasn't even a thing. This is such a bogus argument.

Monker wrote:Red 13 and Generation were not released in a way that would even garner that type of support.


They were released to stores and available to the public. VH1 Classic also aired a video for Faith in the Heartland.

Monker wrote:I remember on BT posting that since they were releasing Red 13 on their own that it could sell significantly less and make the band the same amount of money....selling 100,000 copies is probably making Journey the same as a platinum album would. Allen Craft replied and said I was absolutely correct and that is why they were doing it. It was an EXPERIMENT in releasing music on their website.


I think you are forgetting that the band lost their deal at Sony. Schon says they walked away. Others say Sony dropped them. When it came to Red 13, Cain later said the band "got their asses handed to them."

Monker wrote:To compare it to a release by Wal-Mart is just wrong...apples to oranges.


In both cases, the band made an album and it was released to stores.

Monker wrote:Generations was given away at almost all of their concerts for that tour. It was LATER released by Sanctuary. So, you haven an album that had tens of thousands of copies GIVEN AWAY and then went to retail. Those sales can't be compared to a Wal-Mart exclusive like Eclipse. Again, it's apples to oranges.


Numerous artists have given cds away at concerts and they still sold well later. Again, you are misinformed.

Monker wrote:You do know how to read, correct? Every post you make a full of lies. I did not say any of that, just read what you quoted above.


That's rich coming from the guy who openly admits to inventing quotes. Bottom line: prove that original material w/out Perry is commercially viable or go fuck off.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby PianoMan1986 » Tue May 02, 2017 1:44 pm

It all started with a post about Deen's future endeavors... :?
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby ohsherrie » Wed May 03, 2017 8:33 am

:lol: Monker still trying to make a band called Journey without Steve Perry seem relevant. Points for consistency I guess. :lol:
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Eric » Wed May 03, 2017 11:39 pm

ohsherrie wrote::lol: Monker still trying to make a band called Journey without Steve Perry seem relevant. Points for consistency I guess. :lol:


Nearly 20 years of later with great success post-Perry.... and Perry himself even handing the baton off to Arnel... and you still have that incorrect, ignorant and ridiculous attitude. Stunning really. Too bad you've missed out on a great Journey this century - a lot of us have enjoyed the hell out of it.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed May 03, 2017 11:52 pm

Eric wrote:Nearly 20 years of later with great success post-Perry.... and Perry himself even handing the baton off to Arnel... and you still have that incorrect, ignorant and ridiculous attitude. Stunning really. Too bad you've missed out on a great Journey this century - a lot of us have enjoyed the hell out of it.


I've enjoyed the ride, and I'm glad they moved on, but new material has been a challenge for them.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Monker » Sat May 06, 2017 6:26 pm

ohsherrie wrote::lol: Monker still trying to make a band called Journey without Steve Perry seem relevant. Points for consistency I guess. :lol:


What does "relevant" mean? Again, Revelation was a hit album on the charts, it had a hit single, and was a platinum album. What else does it take?

Besides that, this wasn't even my argument (being relevant). TNC said fans did not embrace any post Perry stuff. That is just flat out NOT TRUE. *THAT* is my argument...and he is denying reality, and keeps trying to change his own words, to win an argument that can't be won.

Relevance to me personally just does matter much. I would take Arrival over any of the post-Perry stuff...that is an awesome album. The most "relevant" album during this time is Revelation and I really don't like a single song on it any longer. Eclipse, I only listen to maybe three songs: "City of Hope", "Anything is Possible" and "Chain of Love". Generations, I have not listened to in a while. Mostly because I have an earlier release of the CD that supposedly has worse production, but I never felt that album was bad either...way underrated.

I think of what I have in my car on the SD card right now...a bunch of Asia/John Wetton, all of Little River Band's albums, most of Chicago's catalog (which I usually skip over nowadays), some John Farnham. Styx: Cyclorama, Big Bang Theory, and CYO.
Gentle Storm (which I still feel is one of the best concept albums I have ever heard), all of Anneke van Gierbergen's catalog...who I feel is a female Steve Perry, and only TBF and Eclipse from Journey...most of which I skip.

So, hardly any of that is relevant in today's music climate...especially in the US. It just doesn't matter much to me.

And, as I have said, Journey with Steve Perry means no Journey at all....that has been true since 1998.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Monker » Sat May 06, 2017 6:27 pm

Eric wrote:
ohsherrie wrote::lol: Monker still trying to make a band called Journey without Steve Perry seem relevant. Points for consistency I guess. :lol:


Nearly 20 years of later with great success post-Perry.... and Perry himself even handing the baton off to Arnel... and you still have that incorrect, ignorant and ridiculous attitude. Stunning really. Too bad you've missed out on a great Journey this century - a lot of us have enjoyed the hell out of it.


Ah, don't worry about that from ohsherrie. She's just flirting with me. :D
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Monker » Sat May 06, 2017 6:41 pm

Well, I'm done. This one quote from your post below sums it up: "prove that original material w/out Perry is commercially viable"

You are constantly attempting to change the argument. You are constantly trying to change what YOU SAID. "Commercially viable"? Please. That has nothing to do with the FACT that fans embraced Revelation. They did, it's a fact. So, you saying "Journey fans did not embrace any post-Perry stuff." is simply NOT TRUE. That is it. Period.

You have become as much of a waste of time as froy, or Toph...because you IGNORE facts. You say I said things I didn't say. You try to change your own words.

It's simply not worthy of any more of my time.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Monker wrote:Great...if you want to comment on my opinion of Eclipse you can find one of those other posts and reply to that one instead...because I am offering NO opinion of Eclipse here - YOU ARE.


Selectively discussing the charting position of Eclipse, while ignoring the low sales of the majority of recent Journey cds, is transparently biased. How is that not expressing an opinion? Your agenda is showing.

Monker wrote:WTF! LOOK at what you are quoting. I put quotes around "stuff" because THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID. I did NOT put quotes around Journey. Therefore, you are misquoting me AGAIN. I said 'Journey "stuff"' BECAUSE you said "post-Perry stuff" and I changed "post-Perry" to "Journey" so it made more sense - and I DID NOT PUT QUOTES AROUND IT BECAUSE YOU DIDN"T SAY IT. And, it is even in context because Revelation is "post-Perry stuff" - which is what you said!


So rather than quote what I actually said, you admit that you pulled a few words out of context, changed the words around, and pretty much distorted it to fit your own agenda. Ah, very good.

Monker wrote:You don't know what "Journey stuff" is because you don't want to concede an argument that you can't win. Get over it already.


Journey stuff is pretty all encompassing. I said post-Perry material. Y'know, unsuccessful albums like Arrival, Red 13, Generations etc.

Monker wrote:No, you said "post-Perry stuff"....and the fans DID embrace Revelation - in a big way.


Revelation sold well like all the hits packages have so far. For all you know, Revelation was embraced by Tony Soprano fans.

Monker wrote:And, you can say the same about "post-Perry stuff". You do realize these are YOUR WORDS you are arguing against, right?

Not really. I see Escape-era T-shirts at the mall. Nobody is selling Generations or Revelation T-shirts. Other post-Perry stuff like concert sales and DVDs have done well because of the hits.

Monker wrote:Which has NOTHING to do with the quote you made, which when put in context is replying to your fictional idea of Revelation being released on its own. You do not know how that would have changed things.


All previous cds of post-Perry original material have not done well commercially, while hits packages (like Manila and Vegas dvd) have. It only stands to reason. There is at least a track record to inform my opinion. Your idea that Revelation sold well based on the strength of new songs has no basis in anything other than wishful thinking.

Monker wrote:That was not the argument....YOU SAID, the fans did not embrace "post-Perry Stuff". They did with Revelation. Period.


2/3 of Revelation is all Perry-era material. Try again. If anything Eclipse's sales performance is a damning referendum on Revelation. I guess those fans didn't like what they heard on Revelation to come back for seconds.

Monker wrote:None of that changes the FACT that Arrival sold three times what Eclipse did, and it even had a minor hit single.

Back then the record industry still existed and Itunes wasn't even a thing. This is such a bogus argument.

Monker wrote:Red 13 and Generation were not released in a way that would even garner that type of support.


They were released to stores and available to the public. VH1 Classic also aired a video for Faith in the Heartland.

Monker wrote:I remember on BT posting that since they were releasing Red 13 on their own that it could sell significantly less and make the band the same amount of money....selling 100,000 copies is probably making Journey the same as a platinum album would. Allen Craft replied and said I was absolutely correct and that is why they were doing it. It was an EXPERIMENT in releasing music on their website.


I think you are forgetting that the band lost their deal at Sony. Schon says they walked away. Others say Sony dropped them. When it came to Red 13, Cain later said the band "got their asses handed to them."

Monker wrote:To compare it to a release by Wal-Mart is just wrong...apples to oranges.


In both cases, the band made an album and it was released to stores.

Monker wrote:Generations was given away at almost all of their concerts for that tour. It was LATER released by Sanctuary. So, you haven an album that had tens of thousands of copies GIVEN AWAY and then went to retail. Those sales can't be compared to a Wal-Mart exclusive like Eclipse. Again, it's apples to oranges.


Numerous artists have given cds away at concerts and they still sold well later. Again, you are misinformed.

Monker wrote:You do know how to read, correct? Every post you make a full of lies. I did not say any of that, just read what you quoted above.


That's rich coming from the guy who openly admits to inventing quotes. Bottom line: prove that original material w/out Perry is commercially viable or go fuck off.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Sat May 06, 2017 11:24 pm

Monker wrote:What does "relevant" mean? Again, Revelation was a hit album on the charts, it had a hit single, and was a platinum album. What else does it take?


2/3 of Revelation was Greatest Hits.

Monker wrote: TNC said fans did not embrace any post Perry stuff. That is just flat out NOT TRUE. *THAT* is my argument...and he is denying reality, and keeps trying to change his own words, to win an argument that can't be won.


Albums of post-Perry Journey material are: Arrival, Red 13, Generations, and Eclipse. All have been received to tepid sales. I think Arrival and Eclipse are great albums. But it's just the way it is. Loverboy's "Just Getting Started" was a Walmart exclusive and also flopped. Amazing album nonetheless.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Sat May 06, 2017 11:28 pm

Monker wrote:Well, I'm done. This one quote from your post below sums it up: "prove that original material w/out Perry is commercially viable"

You are constantly attempting to change the argument. You are constantly trying to change what YOU SAID. "Commercially viable"? Please. That has nothing to do with the FACT that fans embraced Revelation. They did, it's a fact. So, you saying "Journey fans did not embrace any post-Perry stuff." is simply NOT TRUE. That is it. Period.


Journey fans or Walmart impulse shoppers? Journey fans or Sopranos watchers? Journey fans or Oprah/Ellen watchers? You have no idea. A fan base would support the band without freebies like a cd of hits and a dvd of hits.

Monker wrote:You have become as much of a waste of time as froy, or Toph...because you IGNORE facts. You say I said things I didn't say. You try to change your own words.

It's simply not worthy of any more of my time.


As the old saying goes, "when you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have no facts, pound the table." You are a dramatic old queen who adds nothing to these forums.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby Journey/Survivor » Sun May 07, 2017 3:31 am

Monker wrote:What does "relevant" mean? Again, Revelation was a hit album on the charts, it had a hit single, and was a platinum album. What else does it take?


I've never understood how or why anyone would refer to Journey over the past 20 years as being irrelevant? It couldn't be any farther from the truth!
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby jestor92 » Sat May 13, 2017 2:47 pm

To me Revelation was a missed opportunity. Yes I know it sold well, but the new material on that album was mostly mediocre at best. If they released an album that was great packaged with the GH and a dvd that could've been a catapult effect for them going forward. Instead we got an album with mostly forgettable songs and sales tanked on Eclipse.

It also didn't help sales that Cain clearly wasn't on board with the album direction.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Mon May 15, 2017 10:06 am

jestor92 wrote:It also didn't help sales that Cain clearly wasn't on board with the album direction.


After it failed to match Revelation's sales, Cain started talking trash. He promoted it initially. It's also worth noting that Cain wrote pretty much 100% of the lyrics and came up with the concept (based on Wayne Dyer's Power of Intention self-help book). So Cain can disown it as a Neal solo album, but he's all over it.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby jestor92 » Mon May 15, 2017 10:46 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
jestor92 wrote:It also didn't help sales that Cain clearly wasn't on board with the album direction.


After it failed to match Revelation's sales, Cain started talking trash. He promoted it initially. It's also worth noting that Cain wrote pretty much 100% of the lyrics and came up with the concept (based on Wayne Dyer's Power of Intention self-help book). So Cain can disown it as a Neal solo album, but he's all over it.

I'm not doubting he was all over it lyrically because he is the band's lyricist. I don't think he was on board with the album musically because he has a vision for what Journey is and Eclipse wasn't that vision. His vision is mid tempo rock songs and sappy ballads.

They can be successful with more rocking songs and have had success with rocking songs in the past. His bread and butter though is mid tempo and slow sap.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby annie89509 » Sat May 20, 2017 3:33 pm

JourneyHard wrote:Picture in some alternative universe, Journey released the following in 1986 with Perry on lead vocals:

Eclipse (1986)
1. Be Good To Yourself
2. Edge of The Moment
3. Chain Of Love
4. Tantra
5. Anything is Possible
6. Resonate
7. She's a Mystery
8. Human Feel
9. Ritual
10. Someone
11. Why Can't This Night Go On Forever?

This would be awesome!
And no cracks about Journey only playing Be Good To Yourself from this album in concerts for decades after Perry leaves band.

Yes ... that would have been an awesome followup to Frontiers! I love ROR ... but some songs in it are too much like SP solo. I, too, wonder what the Eclipse songs would be like with Steve's vocals. Tantra would be unbelievable.
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby S2M » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:25 am

FFS, will this 'band' just go away already?!
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Re: Deen says "No Journey"...

Postby steveo777 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:10 pm

S2M wrote:FFS, will this 'band' just go away already?!


You need to go drink some more hateraide. Sounds like a typical political type, of the liberal variety, that says just because you don't like something, nobody else should be able to enjoy it either. The band isn't going anywhere just yet. Go kick rocks!
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