Neal + John Waite + Deen

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Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby FamilyMan » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:54 am

Not in love with this idea.
First of all -- it wasn't all that long ago that John Waite sullied the name Journey, calling it "super-white" music or whatever he said. This also feels like a direct F-You to Cain - working with Waite. It feels like sleeping with your wife's ex-best friend, doesn't it?

And Deen...
Deen brings out the worst in Neal, I think. Deen's first and foremost a metal head. This is the draw for SoulSikUS stuff that no one who's a fan of Journey really wants much more of.

"Journe"y needs an intervention. To keep "Journey" together. Being around these other guys will only make things worse.
"I'd love to hear his voice again." - Neal Schon 2008
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Archetype » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:02 am

I think it has potential. Bad English ended too soon, and this could be a revival of it.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:08 am

FamilyMan wrote: This is the draw for SoulSikUS stuff that no one who's a fan of Journey really wants much more of.



Ooof. :shock:
You are really the king of bullshit blanket statements. Soul Sirkus had a few heavy tracks but was not metal. There was a lot of melodic and soulful influences as well. On one track, "Coming Home", JSS was pretty much emulating Perry. So I really have no idea what you are talking about. I would take another Sirkus album over Revelation any day. I think the Schon/Waite/Deeno project sounds awesome.

Also, Deen's presence does not automatically turn material into Black Sabbath. Nonsense. He just did work for Cain's Jesus music and filled in for Night Ranger.Go listen to any of the Bad English records. Or Rev Saints. He likes to play heavy but lays down what the music requires.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby FamilyMan » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:37 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
FamilyMan wrote: This is the draw for SoulSikUS stuff that no one who's a fan of Journey really wants much more of.



Ooof. :shock:
You are really the king of bullshit blanket statements. Soul Sirkus had a few heavy tracks but was not metal. There was a lot of melodic and soulful influences as well. On one track, "Coming Home", JSS was pretty much emulating Perry. So I really have no idea what you are talking about. I would take another Sirkus album over Revelation any day. I think the Schon/Waite/Deeno project sounds awesome.

Also, Deen's presence does not automatically turn material into Black Sabbath. Nonsense. He just did work for Cain's Jesus music and filled in for Night Ranger.Go listen to any of the Bad English records. Or Rev Saints. He likes to play heavy but lays down what the music requires.


I think you're in the minority. Walk into any Journey show and ask the crowd if they've heard of SS. These are vanity projects for Neal which distract him and cost the band valuable time which should be spent writing. Schon/Hammer was the first one, and Herbie was spot on. He would rue the day...
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby perryswoman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:38 am

I think it sounds awesome!! Luved Bad English and I know they will write some good music together
Come back Steve Perry!!
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:46 am

FamilyMan wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:
FamilyMan wrote: This is the draw for SoulSikUS stuff that no one who's a fan of Journey really wants much more of.



Ooof. :shock:
You are really the king of bullshit blanket statements. Soul Sirkus had a few heavy tracks but was not metal. There was a lot of melodic and soulful influences as well. On one track, "Coming Home", JSS was pretty much emulating Perry. So I really have no idea what you are talking about. I would take another Sirkus album over Revelation any day. I think the Schon/Waite/Deeno project sounds awesome.

Also, Deen's presence does not automatically turn material into Black Sabbath. Nonsense. He just did work for Cain's Jesus music and filled in for Night Ranger.Go listen to any of the Bad English records. Or Rev Saints. He likes to play heavy but lays down what the music requires.


I think you're in the minority. Walk into any Journey show and ask the crowd if they've heard of SS. These are vanity projects for Neal which distract him and cost the band valuable time which should be spent writing. Schon/Hammer was the first one, and Herbie was spot on. He would rue the day...


I got news for you mr. Reporter. Go to any Journey concert and ask that same question about arrival or generations and you will probably get roughly the same answer.

Sirkus was created out of writing sessions that Neal had with Sammy. U may ask, why is Schon writing with Sammy and not Cain? Probably the same reason why he's not writing with Cain now. It takes two to tango.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Journey/Survivor » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:46 am

FamilyMan wrote:Not in love with this idea.
First of all -- it wasn't all that long ago that John Waite sullied the name Journey, calling it "super-white" music or whatever he said. This also feels like a direct F-You to Cain - working with Waite. It feels like sleeping with your wife's ex-best friend, doesn't it?

And Deen...
Deen brings out the worst in Neal, I think. Deen's first and foremost a metal head. This is the draw for SoulSikUS stuff that no one who's a fan of Journey really wants much more of.

"Journe"y needs an intervention. To keep "Journey" together. Being around these other guys will only make things worse.


I think that Waite is a great singer and songwriter, but a pretty obnoxious person. I would love to hear him do a Blues album with Schon, however.

I love Castronovo's drumming, but he seems more appropriate for a Metal or Hard Rock album than a Blues album. With that said, I'm sure that Castronovo could do a Blues album justice. And it would be great to see/hear him working with Schon and Waite again.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Memorex » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:50 am

Waite has changed and grown a lot over the last decade. I think some new music with these guys would be outstanding.

I do think it's a big FU to Cain though, as I don't think there are great feelings between him and Waite.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Journey/Survivor » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:57 am

Archetype wrote:I think it has potential. Bad English ended too soon, and this could be a revival of it.



I've thought many times that a Bad English reunion with or without Jonathan Cain would be awesome.
Get Waite, Schon, Castronovo, Phillips and make a new Bad English album. If Cain will do it, awesome. If not, then get someone like Alan Fitzgerald, Tim Gorman, Doug Johnson, Jim Peterik, Alan Pasqua, etc, etc on keyboards.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby JourneyHard » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:16 am

Why is there a beef between Cain and Waite? Is Waite angry that Cain left to join Journey? Or is this much more recent?


Also, I'd rather have another Soul Sirkus album than another Bad English album. Soul Sirkus is what Journey should have become. The songs had energy in them and were cool to listen to; you know kinda like Journey back in Frontiers and before.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Journey/Survivor » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:26 am

JourneyHard wrote:Why is there a beef between Cain and Waite? Is Waite angry that Cain left to join Journey? Or is this much more recent?


Also, I'd rather have another Soul Sirkus album than another Bad English album. Soul Sirkus is what Journey should have become. The songs had energy in them and were cool to listen to; you know kinda like Journey back in Frontiers and before.


Waite pulled a lot of crap that screwed the rest of Bad English over back when they were in the studio recording their second album.
Really, it's Schon who has the most right to be pissed at Waite based on everything that I heard at the time. I guess that Cain holds a grudge longer than Schon?

Waite was erasing a lot of the guitar work that Schon had recorded for the album.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Archetype » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:28 am

Journey/Survivor wrote:
JourneyHard wrote:Why is there a beef between Cain and Waite? Is Waite angry that Cain left to join Journey? Or is this much more recent?


Also, I'd rather have another Soul Sirkus album than another Bad English album. Soul Sirkus is what Journey should have become. The songs had energy in them and were cool to listen to; you know kinda like Journey back in Frontiers and before.


Waite pulled a lot of crap that screwed the rest of Bad English over back when they were in the studio recording their second album.
Really, it's Schon who has the most right to be pissed at Waite based on everything that I heard at the time. I guess that Cain holds a grudge longer than Schon?

Waite was erasing a lot of the guitar work that Schon had recorded for the album.


From what I can observe about Neal and Jon's personalities, it would make sense that Jon would hold grudges and Neal would let things go. The "born again" types are almost always holier than thou egotistical pricks. It's like a prerequisite to becoming evangelical.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:43 am

JourneyHard wrote:Why is there a beef between Cain and Waite? Is Waite angry that Cain left to join Journey? Or is this much more recent?


Also, I'd rather have another Soul Sirkus album than another Bad English album. Soul Sirkus is what Journey should have become. The songs had energy in them and were cool to listen to; you know kinda like Journey back in Frontiers and before.

Exactly. There was a vibrancy and contemporary quality to Sirkus. Also there was no limits. They could do aor, soul, rock etc.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby slucero » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:16 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
JourneyHard wrote:Why is there a beef between Cain and Waite? Is Waite angry that Cain left to join Journey? Or is this much more recent?


Also, I'd rather have another Soul Sirkus album than another Bad English album. Soul Sirkus is what Journey should have become. The songs had energy in them and were cool to listen to; you know kinda like Journey back in Frontiers and before.

Exactly. There was a vibrancy and contemporary quality to Sirkus. Also there was no limits. They could do aor, soul, rock etc.



Dead on. This still fucking rocks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3-HiyCwkQ

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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:53 pm

slucero wrote:
Dead on. This still fucking rocks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3-HiyCwkQ


Yea, I'm hoping the album gets re-released again someday.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Archetype » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:00 am

Journey/Survivor wrote:
Archetype wrote:I think it has potential. Bad English ended too soon, and this could be a revival of it.



I've thought many times that a Bad English reunion with or without Jonathan Cain would be awesome.
Get Waite, Schon, Castronovo, Phillips and make a new Bad English album. If Cain will do it, awesome. If not, then get someone like Alan Fitzgerald, Tim Gorman, Doug Johnson, Jim Peterik, Alan Pasqua, etc, etc on keyboards.



As much as I also want a Bad English reunion to the fullest extent possible, I doubt that Ricky Phillips would walk away from Styx to do Bad English, and Styx maintains such a busy schedule that it would be pretty difficult to do both. I'm expecting Deen, John and Neal and two new guys if it is Bad English sort of project
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:03 am

Archetype wrote: I'm expecting Deen, John and Neal and two new guys if it is Bad English sort of project


At this point, I think starting a new band with Jon is the farthest thing from Schon's mind.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Archetype » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:51 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Archetype wrote: I'm expecting Deen, John and Neal and two new guys if it is Bad English sort of project


At this point, I think starting a new band with Jon is the farthest thing from Schon's mind.



Probably the farthest thing from Jon's mind too. If he isn't happy in the very lucrative arrangement that Journey is, he definitely wouldn't want to work with Neal on a Bad English type project without that big pay day.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Majestic » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:04 am

Have to see...but honestly, Waite doesn't excite me much. I did like Bad English, but not so much for Waite as for the songs and playing. Waite is competent and decent but I don't know, even Bad English would have been helped with a more exciting singer, I always felt. I'll still look forward to it tho. 8)
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby JourneyHard » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:10 am

What about getting Hardline back together?

If Jon leaves Journey, I wonder if Neal will start mixing up set list at Journey shows and include a Hardline song once in awhile. Maybe a Soul Sirkus song, too. It could be a big surprise going to Journey concerts!
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Hollywood » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:13 pm

JourneyHard wrote:What about getting Hardline back together?

If Jon leaves Journey, I wonder if Neal will start mixing up set list at Journey shows and include a Hardline song once in awhile. Maybe a Soul Sirkus song, too. It could be a big surprise going to Journey concerts!


None of this will happen. If Journey still wants to exist in a relevant manner they have to stick with what works. It has been proven they begin to struggle business wise immediately when they deviate from the script.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Hollywood » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:25 pm

What I think would be interesting is John Waite/Glen Burtnik/Neal Schon. I've wanted this for years. They've all worked together at different times just never all 3 at the same time.

Schon's sense of melody, Waite's unique voice and phrasing, and Burtnik's songwriting and sense of harmony would make for a great record. Just need a drummer and maybe keys. If you get super bluesy a B3 player would be great.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Journey/Survivor » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:52 am

Hollywood wrote:What I think would be interesting is John Waite/Glen Burtnik/Neal Schon. I've wanted this for years. They've all worked together at different times just never all 3 at the same time.

Schon's sense of melody, Waite's unique voice and phrasing, and Burtnik's songwriting and sense of harmony would make for a great record. Just need a drummer and maybe keys. If you get super bluesy a B3 player would be great.


Expanding on your idea.......

John Waite: Lead Vocals
Neal Schon: Guitar
Gregg Rolie: Keyboards
Glen Burtnik: Bass
Deen Castronovo: Drums.

Give Rolie, Burtnik and Castronovo one song each on Lead Vocals, John Waite on the rest.

Imagine the potential background vocals that could be done by everyone of those guys.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:55 am

Hollywood wrote:None of this will happen. If Journey still wants to exist in a relevant manner they have to stick with what works. It has been proven they begin to struggle business wise immediately when they deviate from the script.


Be specific. "Arrival" was packed with Trial By FIre-style ballads and it was not a hit.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Hollywood » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:00 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Hollywood wrote:None of this will happen. If Journey still wants to exist in a relevant manner they have to stick with what works. It has been proven they begin to struggle business wise immediately when they deviate from the script.


Be specific. "Arrival" was packed with Trial By FIre-style ballads and it was not a hit.


Getting radio play and selling records for a legacy act like Journey is very hard nowadays. I loved Arrival and thought it deserve a bigger stage, but it didn't happen.

Since 1998, the script for Journey is to spend most summers packaging up with one or two other band and hit the big sheds. In the off seasons pick up high paying casino and private gigs. And when you play.... play the hits.

At the start of the Generations tour the band, led by Neal played quite a few songs from Generations. The audience feedback was swift and sharply negative and Jon had to step in and point the band back to playing a more hit laden set. That tour was besieged with poor reviews even after the change. The general public just didn't get it and they didn't draw well. Plus, Augeri was really struggling.

Journey will always be a draw. They could, at anytime since 1998, attempted to make Journey a evolving band and they tried with Eclipse, but they are unwilling to do what it takes. When Eclipse was released they could have a grabbed a smaller opening act with a little modern edge like Collective Soul, Our Lady Peace, or maybe Tesla, then played smaller venues and committed to playing the bulk of the new material it could give the new direction a shot. You still play the hits. The band would alienate a lot of the current fanbase, but some may come around and maybe they would get a new following. This is a huge gamble, but could work. It would result in taking a monetary hit that you most likely would never get back.

Speaking for myself only, I want bands that play new material, take chances, vary setlists, play classic albums live, and generally work hard to please fans.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby The_Noble_Cause » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:10 am

Hollywood wrote:Getting radio play and selling records for a legacy act like Journey is very hard nowadays. I loved Arrival and thought it deserve a bigger stage, but it didn't happen.

Since 1998, the script for Journey is to spend most summers packaging up with one or two other band and hit the big sheds. In the off seasons pick up high paying casino and private gigs. And when you play.... play the hits.


The band really has never deviated from playing the "dirty dozen" ever. I'm not sure I would call more greatest hit tours "relevant" tho. The band toured the hits endlessly with Augeri and even called one of the tours "Under the Radar." Why? Because outside of the die-hards, nobody really took notice that they were back on the road.

Hollywood wrote:At the start of the Generations tour the band, led by Neal played quite a few songs from Generations. The audience feedback was swift and sharply negative and Jon had to step in and point the band back to playing a more hit laden set. That tour was besieged with poor reviews even after the change. The general public just didn't get it and they didn't draw well. Plus, Augeri was really struggling.


There were some 3 hour Generations shows where the first hour was pre-Perry stuff. But that was not for every date. As for shows that played multiple Generations tunes, the band has been doing that for years. The Arrival tour initially had 4 or 5 new tunes. Then it got scaled to one.

Hollywood wrote:Journey will always be a draw. They could, at anytime since 1998, attempted to make Journey a evolving band and they tried with Eclipse, but they are unwilling to do what it takes. When Eclipse was released they could have a grabbed a smaller opening act with a little modern edge like Collective Soul, Our Lady Peace, or maybe Tesla, then played smaller venues and committed to playing the bulk of the new material it could give the new direction a shot. You still play the hits. The band would alienate a lot of the current fanbase, but some may come around and maybe they would get a new following. This is a huge gamble, but could work. It would result in taking a monetary hit that you most likely would never get back.


The band played a club date for Red 13. Hard to do an entire tour tho. Remember, they have a big crew and everybody has to get paid.

Hollywood wrote:Speaking for myself only, I want bands that play new material, take chances, vary setlists, play classic albums live, and generally work hard to please fans.


I agree. The only member of the band who wants to do that is Neal. And its been that was for a long time now.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Archetype » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:16 am

Neal posted on Facebook that this project will not be Bad English themed in the slightest.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Journey/Survivor » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:41 am

Archetype wrote:Neal posted on Facebook that this project will not be Bad English themed in the slightest.


If it's a Blues album, which is what was being talked about, then this lineup would be great.......

John Waite: Lead Vocals
Neal Schon: Guitar
Gregg Rolie: Keyboards
Deen Castronovo: Drums

Ross Valory would be a good Bass player for the album, but If Neal's pissed at him right now, then he might not want him as part of it?

Randy Jackson could probably do a great job as the bass player.

If Deen didn't wind up being the drummer on the album, then Steve Smith is a pretty obvious choice for the album. Prairie Prince could be another strong candidate for drums.

If Rolie's the keyboardist, you have him play Hammond B-3 and maybe some piano, but no synth.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby Abitaman » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:03 am

Archetype wrote:
Journey/Survivor wrote:
JourneyHard wrote:Why is there a beef between Cain and Waite? Is Waite angry that Cain left to join Journey? Or is this much more recent?


Also, I'd rather have another Soul Sirkus album than another Bad English album. Soul Sirkus is what Journey should have become. The songs had energy in them and were cool to listen to; you know kinda like Journey back in Frontiers and before.


Waite pulled a lot of crap that screwed the rest of Bad English over back when they were in the studio recording their second album.
Really, it's Schon who has the most right to be pissed at Waite based on everything that I heard at the time. I guess that Cain holds a grudge longer than Schon?

Waite was erasing a lot of the guitar work that Schon had recorded for the album.


From what I can observe about Neal and Jon's personalities, it would make sense that Jon would hold grudges and Neal would let things go. The "born again" types are almost always holier than thou egotistical pricks. It's like a prerequisite to becoming evangelical.

Have to disagree with the born again comment. Not all hold are egotistical just like all unsaved are not murders.
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Re: Neal + John Waite + Deen

Postby SF-Dano » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:13 am

I don't know..... but when I think of Blues music, John Waite is about the last voice that comes to my mind (not at all actually). Pop, rock, R&B sure, but blues. I just can't picture/hear it.
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