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Postby Monker » Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:04 pm

arden wrote:What is arrogant is when parties sign legal agreements not to rerecord previously recorded songs, and then violate...or turn a blind eye while others violate it.


No, that is called hearsay. If you can't provide ANY evidence that you know such an agreement was signed, then I don't believe you know any more then anybody else in this forum about any agreements Perry signed when he left Journey.

If JOURNEY wants to come down on Ebay and bootlegers, fine, do it...But, they don't need to make it a public display. They don't need to put fan against fan. This has almost become a witchhunt....and I think it's wrong.
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Postby LAWoman » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:01 pm

It's always interesting to read the rationale for bootlegs. People see/hear something they want and they can take it without much probability of any negative consequences to they take it. Taking or making an unauthorized recording of an artist 's work is theft pure and simple no matter how you try to rationalize it.

It's like stealing the produce at the grocery store. You think tasting a few grapes is inconsequential and doesn't matter. But if everyone steals a couple grapes, it matters. You argue that tasting the grapes help them sell, but if they wanted you to taste the grapes, they'd put out a platter. You can think of a dozen reasons to justify the theft, but taking things that are not yours without the permission of the owner is and always will be theft.
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Postby Monker » Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:55 pm

LAWoman wrote:It's always interesting to read the rationale for bootlegs. People see/hear something they want and they can take it without much probability of any negative consequences to they take it. Taking or making an unauthorized recording of an artist 's work is theft pure and simple no matter how you try to rationalize it.

It's like stealing the produce at the grocery store. You think tasting a few grapes is inconsequential and doesn't matter. But if everyone steals a couple grapes, it matters. You argue that tasting the grapes help them sell, but if they wanted you to taste the grapes, they'd put out a platter. You can think of a dozen reasons to justify the theft, but taking things that are not yours without the permission of the owner is and always will be theft.


I am not 'rationalizing' bootlegs. In fact, I have specificaly said that EBay could come down on bootlegers and that Journey could come down on bootleggers. But, this has become a spectacle putting one fan against the other over insignificant things...a spectacle that seems to be supported by Journey.

You don't see fans of George's Grapes hanging out at grocery stores and watching everybody who browses the grapes to see if anybody picks one...and then telling the customer, "Ha! I am teling the manager...and if he doesn't do anything about you, I'm going to tell somebody else so you'll both have people to answer to!"

You don't see that because it would be silly...no grocery store would sell grapes from George's Grapes because of how they and their fans were acting. That is how the fans seem to be acting and I think it is a bit extreme.
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Postby Journeynut » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:24 pm

Monker wrote:
LAWoman wrote:It's always interesting to read the rationale for bootlegs. People see/hear something they want and they can take it without much probability of any negative consequences to they take it. Taking or making an unauthorized recording of an artist 's work is theft pure and simple no matter how you try to rationalize it.

It's like stealing the produce at the grocery store. You think tasting a few grapes is inconsequential and doesn't matter. But if everyone steals a couple grapes, it matters. You argue that tasting the grapes help them sell, but if they wanted you to taste the grapes, they'd put out a platter. You can think of a dozen reasons to justify the theft, but taking things that are not yours without the permission of the owner is and always will be theft.


I am not 'rationalizing' bootlegs. In fact, I have specificaly said that EBay could come down on bootlegers and that Journey could come down on bootleggers. But, this has become a spectacle putting one fan against the other over insignificant things...a spectacle that seems to be supported by Journey.

You don't see fans of George's Grapes hanging out at grocery stores and watching everybody who browses the grapes to see if anybody picks one...and then telling the customer, "Ha! I am teling the manager...and if he doesn't do anything about you, I'm going to tell somebody else so you'll both have people to answer to!"

You don't see that because it would be silly...no grocery store would sell grapes from George's Grapes because of how they and their fans were acting. That is how the fans seem to be acting and I think it is a bit extreme.



The issue is the legality of the songs that were put up on a website, and that TJ is sending.
Not who is calling him down on it, fan or no fan.
Anyway, what was I saying.........
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Postby jrnyjetster » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:55 pm

:roll: This thread has become fucking ridiculous..SHUT IT DOWN! arden, are you on Journey's payroll? geesh...get a friggin' life! :lol:
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Postby OldJourney » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:28 am

LAWoman wrote:It's always interesting to read the rationale for bootlegs. People see/hear something they want and they can take it without much probability of any negative consequences to they take it. Taking or making an unauthorized recording of an artist 's work is theft pure and simple no matter how you try to rationalize it.

It's like stealing the produce at the grocery store. You think tasting a few grapes is inconsequential and doesn't matter. But if everyone steals a couple grapes, it matters. You argue that tasting the grapes help them sell, but if they wanted you to taste the grapes, they'd put out a platter. You can think of a dozen reasons to justify the theft, but taking things that are not yours without the permission of the owner is and always will be theft.


You took the words right out of my mouth, LaWoman! :wink:

Arguing with an attorney who likely knows what she is talking about?
Now THAT'S arrogance! :roll:
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Postby Monker » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:27 am

[quote="OldJourney"]
Arguing with an attorney who likely knows what she is talking about?
Now THAT'S arrogance! :roll: [/color]

What is it called when somebody says somebody is arguing a point that they are not...and has repeatedly said they are not? Dim? Ignorance? Thick headed? Assign your own definition....because I am NOT arguing about the 'law'....In fact, I have REPEATEDLY said that EBay, and Journey, have every right to go after bootleggers. What about that statement is so hard to understand? What about that statement is arguing for bootleggin or arguing about the laws regarding bootleging:?

I am arguing that those who feel obliged to be Journey Police are now acting silly...and Journey isn't helping by alliwing them to feel they have their "approval" when they go about trying to get other fans to do Journey's will. It is silly and people should realize that.
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Postby OldJourney » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:11 am

Monker wrote:
OldJourney wrote:Arguing with an attorney who likely knows what she is talking about?
Now THAT'S arrogance! :roll:

I am arguing that those who feel obliged to be Journey Police are now acting silly...



Journey Police?? Silly?? It's about the LAW and what is LEGAL and what is not.

Afraid you were one-upped by an actual attorney who actually KNOWS what she is talking about, monker?



Interesting......the very ONE who started this thread has not been back after the original post to defend himself...........Now why would that be?
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Postby perryfaithful » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:28 am

OldJourney wrote:Interesting......the very ONE who started this thread has not been back after the original post to defend himself...........Now why would that be? [/b][/color]:wink:



Maybe he is on his way to the pokey
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Postby arden » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:30 am

So, when you feel someone has misrepresented *your* point you resort to childish name calling while you have either misunderstood or chosen to ignore my point.

I have REPEATEDLY said that the bigger issue, I believe, is that classic Journey songs have been re recorded. Those illegal recordings are now being offered for download. The fact that the download is being offered by a Perry site is particularly repugnant to me.

Yes, I *am* arguing the law. Which is very clearly being broken with the full knowledge of both Perryville and Journeymusic.com and is being facilitated by Andrew and Melodirock by not deleting the thread two days ago. I believe the law regarding this is very clear and has been posted in this thread. I further believe that since all parties are making an informed decision to break that law that they are all equally culpable.

What we do agree on is that Journey is allowing this to proceed, although we will probably not agree on why they are allowing it.

This bootleg has 5-6 songs. That's more than Red-13 had. It is more music than this band has been able to accomplish recording in over three years, and they STILL can't come up with anything new. I think that is pathetic.

What is "silly" is to assume that the people objecting to this blatant disregard for the law are acting as the band's "police"...quite the contrary...it is the band that NEEDS policing.

Personally, I'm hoping that all parties involved...especially Perryville and Journeymusic.com will have their heads handed to them on a Portugese Platter.

I believe that should be clear enough.





MONKER:
"What is it called when somebody says somebody is arguing a point that they are not...and has repeatedly said they are not? Dim? Ignorance? Thick headed? Assign your own definition....because I am NOT arguing about the 'law'....In fact, I have REPEATEDLY said that EBay, and Journey, have every right to go after bootleggers. What about that statement is so hard to understand? What about that statement is arguing for bootleggin or arguing about the laws regarding bootleging:?

I am arguing that those who feel obliged to be Journey Police are now acting silly...and Journey isn't helping by alliwing them to feel they have their "approval" when they go about trying to get other fans to do Journey's will. It is silly and people should realize that."
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Postby OldJourney » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:50 am

arden wrote:Personally, I'm hoping that all parties involved...especially Perryville and Journeymusic.com will have their heads handed to them on a Portugese Platter.

I believe that should be clear enough.



My sentiments exactly, along with everything else you have said.






perryfaithful wrote:
Maybe he is on his way to the pokey


Could very well be since he hasn't been around......

Exactly where he belongs!
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Postby OldJourney » Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:49 am

Tornado_Jackson wrote:It's not illegal.
You are not paying for them.
There is no transaction of funds for an unlicensed product happening here.
This is what fans do. Spread concert bootlegs. Share music.

If you don't get them here, you can get them on SoulSeek, Kazaa, Morpheus, AudioGalaxy etc etc etc etc.




I was under the impression that these "music services" were shut down. And that whoever uses them can be in big trouble. Seems you make a habit of this.


And, FYI, they contain spyware. I'd guess your computer's full. :lol:
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Postby perryfaithful » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:08 am

[quote="arden"] The fact that the download is being offered by a Perry site is particularly repugnant to me."

......another case of BAD judgement by the "bell?" I have thought that the original concept of honoring Steve Perry at "that site" was LOST a long time ago. Now I am sure of it.
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Postby Monker » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:57 am


So, when you feel someone has misrepresented *your* point you resort to childish name calling while you have either misunderstood or chosen to ignore my point.


I didn't call names. I gave them some definitions and told them to assign their own label.

I have REPEATEDLY said that the bigger issue, I believe, is that classic Journey songs have been re recorded. Those illegal recordings are now being offered for download.


Ah, poor Perry isn't getting his cut for his writing credits. I feel so sorry for him. It's so good that the Perry Police can join the Journey Police to attack their own fans. Wow, it's like a miracle and stuff.

The fact that the download is being offered by a Perry site is particularly repugnant to me.


Too bad. Unless you are going to take them to court, you have absolutely no say in how they use their webspace. THAT is called freedom of speech.

Yes, I *am* arguing the law. Which is very clearly being broken with the full knowledge of both Perryville and Journeymusic.com and is being facilitated by Andrew and Melodirock by not deleting the thread two days ago.


Too bad. I'm so sorry you can't get your way. Can't you tell?

I believe the law regarding this is very clear and has been posted in this thread.


I believe that both Perry and Journey have some fans who will do anything they can to do as they believe their idols want and would approve of...even if it is a silly online witch hunt.

I further believe that since all parties are making an informed decision to break that law that they are all equally culpable.


I believe that journeymusic.com has deleted every thread that discusses bootlegs. In fact, you can't even post that word without it being censored.

Maybe Perryville isn't listening to a few whiney Perry fans who DEMAND everything be their way.

What we do agree on is that Journey is allowing this to proceed,


No, I believe Journey allows people to believe it's OK to do destructive, silly, things in their implied approval.

This bootleg has 5-6 songs. That's more than Red-13 had. It is more music than this band has been able to accomplish recording in over three years, and they STILL can't come up with anything new. I think that is pathetic.


The songs on Red 13 alone are more music then Steve Perry has been able to create in almost 10yrs...If what Journey does is pathetic, I wonder what 'less then pathetic' words are ascribed to him...Or, are you a hypocrit and apply such silly rules descriptive words only to Journey?

What is "silly" is to assume that the people objecting to this blatant disregard for the law are acting as the band's "police"...quite the contrary...it is the band that NEEDS policing.


It is both Perry and Journey fans who do this. Both are guilty of trying to be Big Brother for different reasons.

Personally, I'm hoping that all parties involved...especially Perryville and Journeymusic.com will have their heads handed to them on a Portugese Platter.


Of course you do. That seems to be your motive for everything.
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Postby Tornado_Jackson » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:28 am

OldJourney wrote:Interesting......the very ONE who started this thread has not been back after the original post to defend himself...........Now why would that be? [/b][/color]:wink:


Maybe because I am too busy uploading the advertised bootlegs to the numerous Journey fans who now relentlessly contact me throughout the day to get them?

Besides, what the hell is there to say to you?

I am a melodic rock fan. I have always taken part in cyber music trading with fellow rock fans and see no reason to change my ways and don't intend to do so. Every single person in my age group that I know (except for one) also downloads music. Contrary to what some claim, even though I am a downloader, I also buy pricey tickets to go see the band, I also buy their albums, their dvds and will continue to spend money on whatever else they officially release.
These bootlegs aren't available elsewhere, nor will they ever be. You (and others) may disagree with what I do, but, frankly, I don't care. In fact, I am listening to a rare bootleg of Augeri singing Infinity's "Opened the Door" as we speak.
Damn, he sounds great!

As, I've said, ALOT of rock fans swap music. In fact, every concert I go to I usually end up trading emails with several people who either have a track I need or if I just so happen to have one they so desire. And this past Deleware JRNY show was no exception. I am not in any way shamed to admit that I traded email addresses with 2 fellow JRNY fans/downloaders. Since the day of the show, I have uploaded plenty of tracks to them and they have given me quite a few, as well.

I don't have to defend myself or my actions to you. Nor do I feel any need to. I started this post to share Journey music with Journey fans. Despite your pleas, many fans have contacted me asking for these tracks, and I am more than happy to oblige.
I did not start this post to waste my day arguing with you. What would be the point? So I can tear your argument to shreds and then you can PM Andrew crying the blues saying I am starting trouble?
Thanks, but no thanks.
As it currently stands you have already disregarded Andrew's most recent appeals and engaged in personal attacks saying I belong in the "pokey" among other villifying deunuciatory claims. Interestingly, every single time Andrew interjects to tell people to knock off the attacks, you guys are the first ones to start right up again. Amazing coincidence, no?


Besides, you're not really concerned in upholding the law, are you? Several posts on several different forums on this very site (noticeboard, Van Halen) feature people either actively making arrangements to trade music or in search of where to obtain illegal boots.
Why don't you go after them?

Let's face it- your interested in starting arguments with fans & listeners of the current lineup (such as myself) and nothing more. That's all you do. Create oppositional replies on this board to whatever I post- NO MATTER the topic.

If I want to download music, then, by george, I am going to do it! I am aware of the "risks" and the "criminal nature" of my actions and I don't really care. People my age do this all the time and see nothing wrong with it. If I didn't have the ability of downloading music, I'd never buy any cds at all. It's through listening to a few tracks that I know whether or not I want to buy it. That's how I got into Van Halen, Toto, etc etc.

If my penchant for downloading somehow offends you, then please, DON'T take part in it.
By all means, I encourage you to continue listening to your gramophone - enjoying those much treasured Al Jolson records of yours.
Ok, Grandma? :lol:
Meanwhile, me, along with the rest of the 21st century fully intends to keep on electronically downloading music.

PS My offer still stands, if any Journey fan want these boots or any other (I have plenty of rare live TBF stuff, too), than by all means drop me an email. I'd be more than happy to help you out.
Last edited by Tornado_Jackson on Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby arden » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:02 am

Quote: MONKER:

"Of course you do. That seems to be your motive for everything."


...and you seem to have no motive or point at all on this, or on at least three other forums, except to espouse the same insipid, bitter sarcasm you feel while trying to accuse everyone else of the same. You look to argue for the sake of argument, Monker, Perry fan...Journey fan...it doesn't seem to matter, and you choose insult and sarcasm when you have no point to make.

It's a tiresome waste of my time.
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Postby OldJourney » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:40 am

Tornado_Jackson wrote: I don't have to defend myself or my actions to you.



So why the long tirade? :roll:


Tornado_Jackson wrote: And this past Deleware JRNY show was no exception.




So why haven't you posted about your concert experience in the Kahunaville thread started by "Jimmy?"

:?: :?: :?:



Tornado_Jackson wrote: If I want to download music, then, by george, I am going to do it!



Go for it. :lol:
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Postby Tornado_Jackson » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:16 pm

OldJourney wrote:
So why haven't you posted about your concert experience in the Kahunaville thread started by "Jimmy?"

:?: :?: :?:


If you weren't so fixated on Steve Perry & his time w/ Journey, you might have noticed by now that their are many many other features on this site, one of which is a forum devoted to specifically posting concert reviews.
For your information, I already posted my thoughts on the Deleware, Kahuna show weeks ago. In that thread, Jimmy was nice enough to comment on my review and share his own honest thoughts. He informed me that he was at the same show and as it turns out, he also agrees that Augeri was slightly hard to hear at times. We're also in agreement that Deen is an amazing talent.
Being that our opinions on the show seemed pretty much in synch with one another, I really saw no reason to add to his current thread (in this forum) as we had already covered this ground & exchanged our thoughts previously in the other forum.

There you have it
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Postby Monker » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:04 pm

arden wrote:...and you seem to have no motive or point at all on this


My motive is to get Journey and Journey's fans focused on what is important - JOURNEY MUSIC. and being enthused about Journey's music. My point is that spending time searching the internet for 'ilegal bootleg' traffic and attempting to force Journey's and Steve Perry's will onto OTHER FANS is silly and misdirects fans from what SHOULD be important to them - the music itself.

or on at least three other forums except to espouse the same insipid, bitter sarcasm you feel while trying to accuse everyone else of the same.


That is an absolute lie. Please provide links to threads on three other Journey forums that I have posted 'insipid' msgs to in the last week.

Your credibility is shrinking...First you explicitly state what is in Perry's exit agreement with Journey but provide absolultely NO reason to believe you...and now you post something which is nothing but a boldface lie.

It's a tiresome waste of my time.


Sure it is. But, just like herpes...you'll be back cuz you never went away in the first place.
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Postby aragelfstone » Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:13 am

arden wrote:
...and you seem to have no motive or point at all on this, or on at least three other forums, except to espouse the same insipid, bitter sarcasm you feel while trying to accuse everyone else of the same. You look to argue for the sake of argument, Monker, Perry fan...Journey fan...it doesn't seem to matter, and you choose insult and sarcasm when you have no point to make.

It's a tiresome waste of my time.



I've noticed that.
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Postby OldJourney » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:26 am

arden wrote:The rerecording of classic songs with the current lineup in violation of an agreement between Perry and Journey could open up some legal issues for the band and Perryville. I can live with that. Have a nice day.




I can live with that too. What goes around....eventually comes back around.......
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Postby ClassicJrnyPlease » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:22 am

Monker wrote: Ah, poor Perry isn't getting his cut for his writing credits. I feel so sorry for him. It's so good that the Perry Police can join the Journey Police to attack their own fans. Wow, it's like a miracle and stuff.


Do you realize how absolutely silly you sound?

It's obvious that these bootlegs were recorded ILLEGALLY in the first place, making everyone who buys, sells, trades, downloads, uploads, and whatever else you can put here, equally liable.............

Not to mention those who come here bragging about both having done it, and continuing to look for more to download......

And nobody here is trying to police anybody else. It's about the LAW. It almost amazed me how you tried to spin this around.

Lastly, I'd take the word of the Attorney over your word, any day, monker.
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Postby Monker » Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:45 pm

ClassicJrnyPlease wrote:
Monker wrote: Ah, poor Perry isn't getting his cut for his writing credits. I feel so sorry for him. It's so good that the Perry Police can join the Journey Police to attack their own fans. Wow, it's like a miracle and stuff.

[size=18][i][b]Do you realize how absolutely silly you sound?


Of course. Do you realize how absolutely silly people sound when they whine that a few songs are available on some webspace and they should be taken down because if they don't they'll have to pay the consequences?

Blah, blah blah. This issue is NOTHING but sour grapes for Perry fans and nothing but control issues for Journey fans...and, IMO, it's a sad situation that they feel they should act this way.

Do you think I worried about these bullshit things when I first heard the full Superjam years ago, or when I got ahold of the alternate version of "Don't Tell Me Why You're Leavin'". Or, when I heard that silly "Don't You Want To Go To the Moon" that Perry sings on? Or when I heard the Bill Graham tribute concert? Hell no...I was happy to hear them. Nobody was bitching about these things back then --- except for a certain guy who was charging $50 for a video and $30/CD to get some 'rarities' that others were trading for free.

Do you realize who absolutely 'nutzoid' it would be to go all paranoid and start turning people in who were a source for those recordings? In fact, all of the above were given to me by a HUGE PERRY FAN. I spose she should spend some time in jail because she was dealing in 'ilegal bootlegs'. What a bunch of crap.

It's the thrill of hearing new music for the first time. That is what motivates people to seek out these things...It doesn't matter if it's video of Perry singing at the Beacon for FTLOSM or Journey performing on Soundstage, or Perry singing "Happy Birthday Brian", or Journey performing "Roadrunner", or Perry singing a few lines of an old Sam Cooke song, or Journey performing "Jailhouse Rock". When fans try to take that thrill away from other fans it kills the enthusiasm they have for the band - classic OR new Journey.

If you want to dance around like the Church lady and claim some kinda moral superiority, that's your business. But, you still look and sound just as silly as Dana Carvey did.

It's obvious that these bootlegs were recorded ILLEGALLY in the first place, making everyone who buys, sells, trades, downloads, uploads, and whatever else you can put here, equally liable.............


Wrong. Trading is NOT illegal. But, that doesn't matter to the wolves, does it?

Not to mention those who come here bragging about both having done it, and continuing to look for more to download......


I really don't care. I'm not arguing if they are in the right or wrong. I am arguing that people should get over their supioritiy complex and let Journey and Perry worry about it. It's their 'business' not yours.

And nobody here is trying to police anybody else. It's about the LAW. It almost amazed me how you tried to spin this around.


You're wrong.

[quote]
Lastly, I'd take the word of the Attorney over your word, any day, monker.

I have given no word to keep. I have NOT ARGUED THE LAW. Again, take your own definition of your inability to comprehend that repeatedly stated statement.
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Postby Aorsweden » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:20 pm

arden wrote:
"A lot of fans want to hear these songs and want to hear them live."

Then they should go to the concerts and pay the price of admission.




Interesting. I live in Sweden and it costs me about $600 just for the flying tickets and around $100 for a night in a hotel, just to see my favourite band play live. This because Journey can't get their ass out of the boat and do a european tour, but that's another history :wink:
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Postby Abitaman » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:58 pm

Reason i trade/buy boots, They don't always play the same songs each concert. Or always go to the same cities each year. I live in the Biloxi MS area, and Journey has not been down here this year.-ERIC
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