President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Postby SF-Dano » Tue May 15, 2012 2:49 am

donnaplease wrote:
Monker wrote:Also, marriage is a contract, as I said. A WEDDING is the celebration of that contract being entered into. They are completely different things...and you do not need a wedding, or a church, to enter into the contract of marriage. That is a simple fact. Too many people, it seems to me, confuse the two and/or believe they are the same thing.


I agree with this. So what happens when a gay couple wants to have a "wedding" in a church that doesn't recognize same-sex marriage? I can envision law suits and charges of bigotry against a church for practicing the tenets of their own faith. Furthermore, the marriage contract that you speak of is what most people would consider a 'civil union', but apparently that isn't good enough for the staunchest of same-sex marriage supporters.


This will definitely happen and on a large scale. Wait and see. I also believe we will see much violence and vandalism against these churches and their followers.
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Postby slucero » Tue May 15, 2012 3:47 am

the gay marriage topic will all fall off the radar once Greece exits the Euro (and defaults on all her debt) and the contagion hits the US shores...

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Postby conversationpc » Tue May 15, 2012 4:20 am

SF-Dano wrote:This will definitely happen and on a large scale. Wait and see. I also believe we will see much violence and vandalism against these churches and their followers.


That's already happened...This kind of thing was going on during and after the vote for Prop 8.
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Postby BobbyinTN » Tue May 15, 2012 2:11 pm

The majority should never be allowed to vote on the rights of the minority.

Read the 14th Amendment. It proves keeping gay from marrying is unconstitutional.

There should be a federal law allowing same sex marriage, just like the laws protecting women, blacks and other minorities.

Anyone using religion as an excuse to discriminate is lying to themselves and to God.

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Postby BobbyinTN » Tue May 15, 2012 2:14 pm

donnaplease wrote:
Monker wrote:Also, marriage is a contract, as I said. A WEDDING is the celebration of that contract being entered into. They are completely different things...and you do not need a wedding, or a church, to enter into the contract of marriage. That is a simple fact. Too many people, it seems to me, confuse the two and/or believe they are the same thing.


I agree with this. So what happens when a gay couple wants to have a "wedding" in a church that doesn't recognize same-sex marriage? I can envision law suits and charges of bigotry against a church for practicing the tenets of their own faith. Furthermore, the marriage contract that you speak of is what most people would consider a 'civil union', but apparently that isn't good enough for the staunchest of same-sex marriage supporters.


No, it isn't good enough because a state can still discriminate against a gay couple if they are only "civilly united".

Face it folks, marriage offers benefits, benefits that do not come with powers of attorney or living wills. Any state that forbids gay marriage can deny any claim two people of the same gender put forth if they deem is resembles "heterosexual marriage". I've seen it happen and it's wrong for me or anyone else who'd been in a long term relationship to have to pay inheritance taxes and not be allowed to collect my spouses social security benefits.

If you don't support equal marriage, you support discrimination.
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Postby Monker » Tue May 15, 2012 2:25 pm

donnaplease wrote:
Monker wrote:Also, marriage is a contract, as I said. A WEDDING is the celebration of that contract being entered into. They are completely different things...and you do not need a wedding, or a church, to enter into the contract of marriage. That is a simple fact. Too many people, it seems to me, confuse the two and/or believe they are the same thing.


I agree with this. So what happens when a gay couple wants to have a "wedding" in a church that doesn't recognize same-sex marriage? I can envision law suits and charges of bigotry against a church for practicing the tenets of their own faith. Furthermore, the marriage contract that you speak of is what most people would consider a 'civil union', but apparently that isn't good enough for the staunchest of same-sex marriage supporters.


You can imagine it, but it isn't going to go anywhere. In fact, I would think this type of lawsuit has already happened, and it really does not any change in state or federal law to trigger it.

The state is not going dictate what type of weddings are acceptable to a church. It seems silly to think they would.

And, it is irrelevant to the question of if laws banning gay marriage are constitutional anyway.
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Postby Monker » Tue May 15, 2012 2:27 pm

SF-Dano wrote:
donnaplease wrote:
Monker wrote:Also, marriage is a contract, as I said. A WEDDING is the celebration of that contract being entered into. They are completely different things...and you do not need a wedding, or a church, to enter into the contract of marriage. That is a simple fact. Too many people, it seems to me, confuse the two and/or believe they are the same thing.


I agree with this. So what happens when a gay couple wants to have a "wedding" in a church that doesn't recognize same-sex marriage? I can envision law suits and charges of bigotry against a church for practicing the tenets of their own faith. Furthermore, the marriage contract that you speak of is what most people would consider a 'civil union', but apparently that isn't good enough for the staunchest of same-sex marriage supporters.


This will definitely happen and on a large scale. Wait and see. I also believe we will see much violence and vandalism against these churches and their followers.


Really? Prove it. Gay marriage has been legal in several state for years now. Please show me evidence of all this churches being taken to court.
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Postby conversationpc » Tue May 15, 2012 11:07 pm

Monker wrote:Really? Prove it. Gay marriage has been legal in several state for years now. Please show me evidence of all this churches being taken to court.


This argument is akin to Patriot Act supporters constantly claiming that the law hasn't been abused YET. Not that there haven't been any cases involving churches being sued. I'm just not aware of any yet.
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Postby SF-Dano » Wed May 16, 2012 3:33 am

Article from 2008 stating just some of the lawsuits already in motion back then regarding this debate.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=91486340
NPR
Gay Rights, Religious Liberties: A Three-Act Story
by Barbara Bradley Hagerty

As gay couples in California head to the courthouse starting Monday to get legally married, there are signs of a coming storm. Two titanic legal principles are crashing on the steps of the church, synagogue and mosque: equal treatment for same-sex couples on the one hand, and the freedom to exercise religious beliefs on the other.

The collision that will play out over the next few years will be filled with pathos on both sides.

Act One: A Love Story

Harriet Bernstein, mother of two and grandmother of six, realized a few years ago that she was drawn to women. She lives in Ocean Grove, N.J., a quiet beach town known as "God's Square Mile," because the land is owned by a Methodist retreat center, formally known as Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association.

Eight years ago, she went on a retreat with Jewish gay men and lesbians in the Poconos Mountains and met her future wife.

"I took a chance and went up for a weekend of cross-country skiing and ice skating," Bernstein recalls. "And I saw this lovely lady across a crowded room, as they say in South Pacific, and immediately decided she was somebody I wanted to get to know. And I did."

"We came together like magnets," Luisa Paster adds. "We had all our meals together. We went cross-country skiing. And we exchanged phone numbers at the end of the weekend."

Bernstein and Paster formalized their union last year, a few months after New Jersey legalized civil unions.

Bernstein fetches the wedding album and flips past photos of the rabbi, the cake (adorned with two brides), and various shots of the two outdoorsy, gray-haired women smiling as they stood on the boardwalk in their white tunics and pants.

Paster then reads the invitation to their civil union, emphasizing the ambiguous wording.

"Location to be announced," she reads. "That's because we had to send out the invitations before we had final word on whether we could use the pavilion."

Act Two: The Conflict

The pavilion in question is an open-air building with long benches looking out to the Atlantic Ocean. It is owned by the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association.

"A building very similar to this has been on this site since the late 1800s," says the Rev. Scott Hoffman, the group's administrator.

During the summers, Hoffman says, the pavilion is used for Bible studies, church services, gospel choir performances and, in the past at least, weddings. Heterosexual weddings.

When Bernstein and Paster asked to celebrate their civil union in the pavilion, the Methodist organization said they could marry on the boardwalk — anywhere but buildings used for religious purposes. In other words, not the pavilion. Hoffman says there was a theological principle at stake.

"The principle was a strongly held religious belief that a marriage is between a man and a woman," Hoffman says. "We're not casting any aspersions or making any judgments. It's just, that's where we stand, and we've always stood that way, and that's why we said no."

The refusal came as a shock to Bernstein, who says Ocean Grove has been revived by the gay community.

"We were crushed," she says. "I lived my whole live, fortunately, without having any overt prejudices or discrimination waged against me. So while I knew it was wrong, I never knew how it felt. And after this, I did know how that felt. It was extremely painful."

Luisa says that initially, they walked away from the situation. "We were so stunned, we didn't know what to do. But as we came out of our initial shocked stage, we began to get a little angry. We felt an injustice had been done," she says.

So the couple filed a complaint with New Jersey's Division of Civil Rights, alleging the Methodists unlawfully discriminated against them based on sexual orientation. Attorney Lawrence Lustberg represents them.

"Our law against discrimination does not allow [the group] to use those personal preferences, no matter how deeply held, and no matter — even if they're religiously based — as a grounds to discriminate," Lustberg says. "Religion shouldn't be about violating the law."

The Methodist organization responded that it was their property, and the First Amendment protects their right to practice their faith without government intrusion. But Lustberg countered that the pavilion is open to everyone — and therefore the group could no more refuse to accommodate the lesbians than a restaurant owner could refuse to serve a black man. That argument carried the day. The state revoked the organization's tax exemption for the pavilion area. Hoffman figures they will lose $20,000.

Now, with the help of the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF), a Christian legal firm, Hoffman is appealing the case to state court. He says religious freedom itself is in jeopardy.

"And that potentially affects every religious organization in America, not just Christian organizations, but every religious organization. And I get calls from Jewish rabbis who are equally concerned — people from across the spectrum who think it's a battle worth fighting. And we agree," Hoffman says.

Act Three: A Nationwide Story

As states have legalized same-sex partnerships, the rights of gay couples have consistently trumped the rights of religious groups. Marc Stern, general counsel for the American Jewish Congress, says that does not mean that a pastor can be sued for preaching against same-sex marriage. But, he says, that may be just about the only religious activity that will be protected.

"What if a church offers marriage counseling? Will they be able to say 'No, we're not going to help gay couples get along because it violates our religious principles to do so? What about summer camps? Will they be able to insist that gay couples not serve as staff because they're a bad example?" Stern asks.

Stern says if the early cases are any guide, the outlook is grim for religious groups.

A few cases: Yeshiva University was ordered to allow same-sex couples in its married dormitory. A Christian school has been sued for expelling two allegedly lesbian students. Catholic Charities abandoned its adoption service in Massachusetts after it was told to place children with same-sex couples. The same happened with a private company operating in California.

A psychologist in Mississippi who refused to counsel a lesbian couple lost her case, and legal experts believe that a doctor who refused to provide IVF services to a lesbian woman is about to lose his pending case before the California Supreme Court.

And then there's the case of a wedding photographer in Albuquerque, N.M.

On January 28, 2008, the New Mexico Human Rights Commission heard the case of Vanessa Willock v. Elane Photography.

Willock, in the midst of planning her wedding to her girlfriend, sent the photography company an e-mail request to shoot the commitment ceremony. Elaine Huguenin, who owns the company with her husband, replied: "We do not photograph same-sex weddings. But thanks for checking out our site! Have a great day!"

Willock filed a complaint, and at the hearing she explained how she felt.

"A variety of emotions," she said, holding back tears. "There was a shock and anger and fear. ... We were planning a very happy day for us, and we're being met with hatred. That's how it felt."

Willock declined to be interviewed, as did the owners of Elane Photography. At the hearing, Jonathan Huguenin said that when he and his wife formed the company two years ago, they made it company policy not to shoot same-sex ceremonies, because the ceremonies conflicted with their Christian beliefs.

"We wanted to make sure that everything we photographed — everything we used our artistic ability for, everything we told a story for or conveyed a message of — would be in line with our values and our beliefs," he said.

The defendants' attorney, Jordan Lorence at ADF, says that of course a Christian widget-maker cannot fire an employee because he's gay. But it's different when the company or a religious charity is being forced to endorse something they don't believe, he says.

"It's a very different situation when we're talking about promoting a message," Lorence says. "When it's 'We want to punish you for not helping us promote our message that same-sex marriage is OK,' that for me is a very different deal. It's compelled speech. You're using the arm of the government for punishing people for disagreeing with you."

In April, the state human rights commission found that Elane Photography was guilty of discrimination and must pay the Willock's more than $6,600 attorneys' fee bill. The photographers are appealing to state court.

In the meantime, they wonder whether all the hassle is worth it and whether they should get out of the photography business altogether.

Georgetown University professor Chai Feldblum says it is a compelling case of what happens in a moment of culture clash. Feldblum, who is an active proponent of gay rights, says the culture and state laws are shifting irrevocably to recognize same-sex unions. And while she knows it's hard for some to hear, she says companies and religious groups that serve the public need to recognize that their customers will be gay couples.

"They need to start thinking now, proactively, how they want to address that. Because I do think that if a gay couple ends up being told their wedding cannot be filmed, five couples will not sue, but the sixth couple will."

And as one legal expert puts it, the gay couples "would win in a walk."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

When Gay Rights and Religious Liberties Clash
by Barbara Bradley Hagerty

In recent years, some states have passed laws giving residents the right to same-sex unions in various forms. Gay couples may marry in Massachusetts and California. There are civil unions and domestic partnerships in Vermont, New Jersey, Connecticut, New Hampshire and Oregon. Other states give more limited rights.

Armed with those legal protections, same-sex couples are beginning to challenge policies of religious organizations that exclude them, claiming that a religious group's view that homosexual marriage is a sin cannot be used to violate their right to equal treatment. Now parochial schools, "parachurch" organizations such as Catholic Charities and businesses that refuse to serve gay couples are being sued — and so far, the religious groups are losing. Here are a few cases:

Adoption services: Catholic Charities in Massachusetts refused to place children with same-sex couples as required by Massachusetts law. After a legislative struggle — during which the Senate president said he could not support a bill "condoning discrimination" — Catholic Charities pulled out of the adoption business in 2006.

Housing: In New York City, Yeshiva University's Albert Einstein College of Medicine, a school under Orthodox Jewish auspices, banned same-sex couples from its married dormitory. New York does not recognize same-sex marriage, but in 2001, the state's highest court ruled Yeshiva violated New York City's ban on sexual orientation discrimination. Yeshiva now allows all couples in the dorm.

Parochial schools: California Lutheran High School, a Protestant school in Wildomar, holds that homosexuality is a sin. After the school suspended two girls who were allegedly in a lesbian relationship, the girls' parents sued, saying the school was violating the state's civil rights act protecting gay men and lesbians from discrimination. The case is before a state judge.

Medical services: A Christian gynecologist at North Coast Women's Care Medical Group in Vista, Calif., refused to give his patient in vitro fertilization treatment because she is in a lesbian relationship, and he claimed that doing so would violate his religious beliefs. (The doctor referred the patient to his partner, who agreed to do the treatment.) The woman sued under the state's civil rights act. The California Supreme Court heard oral arguments in May 2008, and legal experts believe that the woman's right to medical treatment will trump the doctor's religious beliefs. One justice suggested that the doctors take up a different line of business.

Psychological services: A mental health counselor at North Mississippi Health Services refused therapy for a woman who wanted help in improving her lesbian relationship. The counselor said doing so would violate her religious beliefs. The counselor was fired. In March 2001, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit sided with the employer, ruling that the employee's religious beliefs could not be accommodated without causing undue hardship to the company.

Civil servants: A clerk in Vermont refused to perform a civil union ceremony after the state legalized them. In 2001, in a decision that side-stepped the religious liberties issue, the Vermont Supreme Court ruled that he did not need to perform the ceremony because there were other civil servants who would. However, the court did indicate that religious beliefs do not allow employees to discriminate against same-sex couples.

Adoption services: A same-sex couple in California applied to Adoption Profiles, an Internet service in Arizona that matches adoptive parents with newborns. The couple's application was denied based on the religious beliefs of the company's owners. The couple sued in federal district court in San Francisco. The two sides settled after the adoption company said it will no longer do business in California.

Wedding services: A same sex couple in Albuquerque asked a photographer, Elaine Huguenin, to shoot their commitment ceremony. The photographer declined, saying her Christian beliefs prevented her from sanctioning same-sex unions. The couple sued, and the New Mexico Human Rights Commission found the photographer guilty of discrimination. It ordered her to pay the lesbian couple's legal fees ($6,600). The photographer is appealing.

Wedding facilities: Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association of New Jersey, a Methodist organization, refused to rent its boardwalk pavilion to a lesbian couple for their civil union ceremony. The couple filed a complaint with the New Jersey Division on Civil Rights. The division ruled that the boardwalk property was open for public use, therefore the Methodist group could not discriminate against gay couples using it. In the interim, the state's Department of Environmental Protection revoked a portion of the association's tax benefits. The case is ongoing.

Youth groups: The city of Berkeley, Calif., requested that the Sea Scouts (affiliated with the Boy Scouts) formally agree to not discriminate against gay men in exchange for free use of berths in the city's marina. The Sea Scouts sued, claiming this violated their beliefs and First Amendment right to the freedom to associate with other like-minded people. In 2006, the California Supreme Court ruled against the youth group. In San Diego, the Boy Scouts lost access to the city-owned aquatic center for the same reason. While these cases do not directly involve same-sex unions, they presage future conflicts about whether religiously oriented or parachurch organizations may prohibit, for example, gay couples from teaching at summer camp. In June 2008, the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals asked the California Supreme Court to review the Boy Scouts' leases. Meanwhile, the mayor's office in Philadelphia revoked the Boy Scouts' $1-a-year lease for a city building.
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Postby Memorex » Wed May 16, 2012 6:44 am

Fact Finder wrote:BANK RUNS HIT GREECE

"Greek depositors withdrew 700 million euro from the nation's local banks recently, said President Karolos Papoulias, though the exact timing of the transfer was unclear."


Good time to be a home invasion specialist, I guess.
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Postby Monker » Wed May 16, 2012 9:13 am

Out of all of that, the only relevant example of suing a church over refusing to hold a same sex marriage is not even at the church, but at a pavilion the church owns...and is four years old. The rest of it is stuff that could be happening whether same sex couples are allowed to marry or not.

This is just politics playing off of your fears. There is no rush to sue churches over this. It's been legal here for three years and nothing like this has happened as far as I know.

SF-Dano wrote:Article from 2008 stating just some of the lawsuits already in motion back then regarding this debate.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=91486340
NPR
Gay Rights, Religious Liberties: A Three-Act Story
by Barbara Bradley Hagerty

As gay couples in California head to the courthouse starting Monday to get legally married, there are signs of a coming storm. Two titanic legal principles are crashing on the steps of the church, synagogue and mosque: equal treatment for same-sex couples on the one hand, and the freedom to exercise religious beliefs on the other.

The collision that will play out over the next few years will be filled with pathos on both sides.

Act One: A Love Story

Harriet Bernstein, mother of two and grandmother of six, realized a few years ago that she was drawn to women. She lives in Ocean Grove, N.J., a quiet beach town known as "God's Square Mile," because the land is owned by a Methodist retreat center, formally known as Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association.

Eight years ago, she went on a retreat with Jewish gay men and lesbians in the Poconos Mountains and met her future wife.

"I took a chance and went up for a weekend of cross-country skiing and ice skating," Bernstein recalls. "And I saw this lovely lady across a crowded room, as they say in South Pacific, and immediately decided she was somebody I wanted to get to know. And I did."

"We came together like magnets," Luisa Paster adds. "We had all our meals together. We went cross-country skiing. And we exchanged phone numbers at the end of the weekend."

Bernstein and Paster formalized their union last year, a few months after New Jersey legalized civil unions.

Bernstein fetches the wedding album and flips past photos of the rabbi, the cake (adorned with two brides), and various shots of the two outdoorsy, gray-haired women smiling as they stood on the boardwalk in their white tunics and pants.

Paster then reads the invitation to their civil union, emphasizing the ambiguous wording.

"Location to be announced," she reads. "That's because we had to send out the invitations before we had final word on whether we could use the pavilion."

Act Two: The Conflict

The pavilion in question is an open-air building with long benches looking out to the Atlantic Ocean. It is owned by the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association.

"A building very similar to this has been on this site since the late 1800s," says the Rev. Scott Hoffman, the group's administrator.

During the summers, Hoffman says, the pavilion is used for Bible studies, church services, gospel choir performances and, in the past at least, weddings. Heterosexual weddings.

When Bernstein and Paster asked to celebrate their civil union in the pavilion, the Methodist organization said they could marry on the boardwalk — anywhere but buildings used for religious purposes. In other words, not the pavilion. Hoffman says there was a theological principle at stake.

"The principle was a strongly held religious belief that a marriage is between a man and a woman," Hoffman says. "We're not casting any aspersions or making any judgments. It's just, that's where we stand, and we've always stood that way, and that's why we said no."

The refusal came as a shock to Bernstein, who says Ocean Grove has been revived by the gay community.

"We were crushed," she says. "I lived my whole live, fortunately, without having any overt prejudices or discrimination waged against me. So while I knew it was wrong, I never knew how it felt. And after this, I did know how that felt. It was extremely painful."

Luisa says that initially, they walked away from the situation. "We were so stunned, we didn't know what to do. But as we came out of our initial shocked stage, we began to get a little angry. We felt an injustice had been done," she says.

So the couple filed a complaint with New Jersey's Division of Civil Rights, alleging the Methodists unlawfully discriminated against them based on sexual orientation. Attorney Lawrence Lustberg represents them.

"Our law against discrimination does not allow [the group] to use those personal preferences, no matter how deeply held, and no matter — even if they're religiously based — as a grounds to discriminate," Lustberg says. "Religion shouldn't be about violating the law."

The Methodist organization responded that it was their property, and the First Amendment protects their right to practice their faith without government intrusion. But Lustberg countered that the pavilion is open to everyone — and therefore the group could no more refuse to accommodate the lesbians than a restaurant owner could refuse to serve a black man. That argument carried the day. The state revoked the organization's tax exemption for the pavilion area. Hoffman figures they will lose $20,000.

Now, with the help of the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF), a Christian legal firm, Hoffman is appealing the case to state court. He says religious freedom itself is in jeopardy.

"And that potentially affects every religious organization in America, not just Christian organizations, but every religious organization. And I get calls from Jewish rabbis who are equally concerned — people from across the spectrum who think it's a battle worth fighting. And we agree," Hoffman says.

Act Three: A Nationwide Story

As states have legalized same-sex partnerships, the rights of gay couples have consistently trumped the rights of religious groups. Marc Stern, general counsel for the American Jewish Congress, says that does not mean that a pastor can be sued for preaching against same-sex marriage. But, he says, that may be just about the only religious activity that will be protected.

"What if a church offers marriage counseling? Will they be able to say 'No, we're not going to help gay couples get along because it violates our religious principles to do so? What about summer camps? Will they be able to insist that gay couples not serve as staff because they're a bad example?" Stern asks.

Stern says if the early cases are any guide, the outlook is grim for religious groups.

A few cases: Yeshiva University was ordered to allow same-sex couples in its married dormitory. A Christian school has been sued for expelling two allegedly lesbian students. Catholic Charities abandoned its adoption service in Massachusetts after it was told to place children with same-sex couples. The same happened with a private company operating in California.

A psychologist in Mississippi who refused to counsel a lesbian couple lost her case, and legal experts believe that a doctor who refused to provide IVF services to a lesbian woman is about to lose his pending case before the California Supreme Court.

And then there's the case of a wedding photographer in Albuquerque, N.M.

On January 28, 2008, the New Mexico Human Rights Commission heard the case of Vanessa Willock v. Elane Photography.

Willock, in the midst of planning her wedding to her girlfriend, sent the photography company an e-mail request to shoot the commitment ceremony. Elaine Huguenin, who owns the company with her husband, replied: "We do not photograph same-sex weddings. But thanks for checking out our site! Have a great day!"

Willock filed a complaint, and at the hearing she explained how she felt.

"A variety of emotions," she said, holding back tears. "There was a shock and anger and fear. ... We were planning a very happy day for us, and we're being met with hatred. That's how it felt."

Willock declined to be interviewed, as did the owners of Elane Photography. At the hearing, Jonathan Huguenin said that when he and his wife formed the company two years ago, they made it company policy not to shoot same-sex ceremonies, because the ceremonies conflicted with their Christian beliefs.

"We wanted to make sure that everything we photographed — everything we used our artistic ability for, everything we told a story for or conveyed a message of — would be in line with our values and our beliefs," he said.

The defendants' attorney, Jordan Lorence at ADF, says that of course a Christian widget-maker cannot fire an employee because he's gay. But it's different when the company or a religious charity is being forced to endorse something they don't believe, he says.

"It's a very different situation when we're talking about promoting a message," Lorence says. "When it's 'We want to punish you for not helping us promote our message that same-sex marriage is OK,' that for me is a very different deal. It's compelled speech. You're using the arm of the government for punishing people for disagreeing with you."

In April, the state human rights commission found that Elane Photography was guilty of discrimination and must pay the Willock's more than $6,600 attorneys' fee bill. The photographers are appealing to state court.

In the meantime, they wonder whether all the hassle is worth it and whether they should get out of the photography business altogether.

Georgetown University professor Chai Feldblum says it is a compelling case of what happens in a moment of culture clash. Feldblum, who is an active proponent of gay rights, says the culture and state laws are shifting irrevocably to recognize same-sex unions. And while she knows it's hard for some to hear, she says companies and religious groups that serve the public need to recognize that their customers will be gay couples.

"They need to start thinking now, proactively, how they want to address that. Because I do think that if a gay couple ends up being told their wedding cannot be filmed, five couples will not sue, but the sixth couple will."

And as one legal expert puts it, the gay couples "would win in a walk."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

When Gay Rights and Religious Liberties Clash
by Barbara Bradley Hagerty

In recent years, some states have passed laws giving residents the right to same-sex unions in various forms. Gay couples may marry in Massachusetts and California. There are civil unions and domestic partnerships in Vermont, New Jersey, Connecticut, New Hampshire and Oregon. Other states give more limited rights.

Armed with those legal protections, same-sex couples are beginning to challenge policies of religious organizations that exclude them, claiming that a religious group's view that homosexual marriage is a sin cannot be used to violate their right to equal treatment. Now parochial schools, "parachurch" organizations such as Catholic Charities and businesses that refuse to serve gay couples are being sued — and so far, the religious groups are losing. Here are a few cases:

Adoption services: Catholic Charities in Massachusetts refused to place children with same-sex couples as required by Massachusetts law. After a legislative struggle — during which the Senate president said he could not support a bill "condoning discrimination" — Catholic Charities pulled out of the adoption business in 2006.

Housing: In New York City, Yeshiva University's Albert Einstein College of Medicine, a school under Orthodox Jewish auspices, banned same-sex couples from its married dormitory. New York does not recognize same-sex marriage, but in 2001, the state's highest court ruled Yeshiva violated New York City's ban on sexual orientation discrimination. Yeshiva now allows all couples in the dorm.

Parochial schools: California Lutheran High School, a Protestant school in Wildomar, holds that homosexuality is a sin. After the school suspended two girls who were allegedly in a lesbian relationship, the girls' parents sued, saying the school was violating the state's civil rights act protecting gay men and lesbians from discrimination. The case is before a state judge.

Medical services: A Christian gynecologist at North Coast Women's Care Medical Group in Vista, Calif., refused to give his patient in vitro fertilization treatment because she is in a lesbian relationship, and he claimed that doing so would violate his religious beliefs. (The doctor referred the patient to his partner, who agreed to do the treatment.) The woman sued under the state's civil rights act. The California Supreme Court heard oral arguments in May 2008, and legal experts believe that the woman's right to medical treatment will trump the doctor's religious beliefs. One justice suggested that the doctors take up a different line of business.

Psychological services: A mental health counselor at North Mississippi Health Services refused therapy for a woman who wanted help in improving her lesbian relationship. The counselor said doing so would violate her religious beliefs. The counselor was fired. In March 2001, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit sided with the employer, ruling that the employee's religious beliefs could not be accommodated without causing undue hardship to the company.

Civil servants: A clerk in Vermont refused to perform a civil union ceremony after the state legalized them. In 2001, in a decision that side-stepped the religious liberties issue, the Vermont Supreme Court ruled that he did not need to perform the ceremony because there were other civil servants who would. However, the court did indicate that religious beliefs do not allow employees to discriminate against same-sex couples.

Adoption services: A same-sex couple in California applied to Adoption Profiles, an Internet service in Arizona that matches adoptive parents with newborns. The couple's application was denied based on the religious beliefs of the company's owners. The couple sued in federal district court in San Francisco. The two sides settled after the adoption company said it will no longer do business in California.

Wedding services: A same sex couple in Albuquerque asked a photographer, Elaine Huguenin, to shoot their commitment ceremony. The photographer declined, saying her Christian beliefs prevented her from sanctioning same-sex unions. The couple sued, and the New Mexico Human Rights Commission found the photographer guilty of discrimination. It ordered her to pay the lesbian couple's legal fees ($6,600). The photographer is appealing.

Wedding facilities: Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association of New Jersey, a Methodist organization, refused to rent its boardwalk pavilion to a lesbian couple for their civil union ceremony. The couple filed a complaint with the New Jersey Division on Civil Rights. The division ruled that the boardwalk property was open for public use, therefore the Methodist group could not discriminate against gay couples using it. In the interim, the state's Department of Environmental Protection revoked a portion of the association's tax benefits. The case is ongoing.

Youth groups: The city of Berkeley, Calif., requested that the Sea Scouts (affiliated with the Boy Scouts) formally agree to not discriminate against gay men in exchange for free use of berths in the city's marina. The Sea Scouts sued, claiming this violated their beliefs and First Amendment right to the freedom to associate with other like-minded people. In 2006, the California Supreme Court ruled against the youth group. In San Diego, the Boy Scouts lost access to the city-owned aquatic center for the same reason. While these cases do not directly involve same-sex unions, they presage future conflicts about whether religiously oriented or parachurch organizations may prohibit, for example, gay couples from teaching at summer camp. In June 2008, the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals asked the California Supreme Court to review the Boy Scouts' leases. Meanwhile, the mayor's office in Philadelphia revoked the Boy Scouts' $1-a-year lease for a city building.
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Postby Monker » Wed May 16, 2012 9:20 am

conversationpc wrote:
Monker wrote:Really? Prove it. Gay marriage has been legal in several state for years now. Please show me evidence of all this churches being taken to court.


This argument is akin to Patriot Act supporters constantly claiming that the law hasn't been abused YET. Not that there haven't been any cases involving churches being sued. I'm just not aware of any yet.


They are completely different. The Patriot act is wrong because it limits our freedoms whether the government acts differently or not. Saying there is going to be an run to sue churches over gay marriage is nothing like that. In fact, it's the same type of fear mongering politics that got the patriot act passed in the first place.

It's a better comparison to say it's like there is going to be a run to sue restaurants because they serve Coke and but no Pepsi.

My feeling is that most just want to get married to who they want to get married to. Signing the papers in a church or a courthouse is not going to be as important to most people.
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Postby Monker » Wed May 16, 2012 9:29 am

Fact Finder wrote:
It has taken months of bad news, but Democrats increasingly believe that President Obama might just lose his re-election bid.

The latest wake-up call comes in the form of a New York Times/CBS poll showing Republican Mitt Romney in the lead not just among registered voters overall, but with women and independents.




Libs are slow learners, I've known since 2010 that The Won never had a second chance. :lol:


And, you are also full of shit...no wonder you did not post a link or your usual full article. it's basically a dead heat:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... ColumnArea
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Postby conversationpc » Wed May 16, 2012 10:22 pm

Monker wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Monker wrote:Really? Prove it. Gay marriage has been legal in several state for years now. Please show me evidence of all this churches being taken to court.


This argument is akin to Patriot Act supporters constantly claiming that the law hasn't been abused YET. Not that there haven't been any cases involving churches being sued. I'm just not aware of any yet.


They are completely different. The Patriot act is wrong because it limits our freedoms whether the government acts differently or not. Saying there is going to be an run to sue churches over gay marriage is nothing like that. In fact, it's the same type of fear mongering politics that got the patriot act passed in the first place.

It's a better comparison to say it's like there is going to be a run to sue restaurants because they serve Coke and but no Pepsi.

My feeling is that most just want to get married to who they want to get married to. Signing the papers in a church or a courthouse is not going to be as important to most people.


I'm not comparing the actual legislation, you dolt, but the reasoning the supporters behind both issues are using.
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Postby RedWingFan » Thu May 17, 2012 7:01 am

Fact Finder wrote:FLASH: Obama's budget goes down in flames...
Unanimously rejected by Democratic Senate...
Fails to get single vote anywhere in Congress...
Even labor unions oppose...


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I think Obama earned himself a new nickname....Ofer Obama.

His budget went down 99-0 in the Senate and 414-0 in the House.

I'll do the math to save Monker 20 minutes of work. That's 0 for 513 Monker.
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Postby Monker » Thu May 17, 2012 10:08 am

conversationpc wrote:
Monker wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Monker wrote:Really? Prove it. Gay marriage has been legal in several state for years now. Please show me evidence of all this churches being taken to court.


This argument is akin to Patriot Act supporters constantly claiming that the law hasn't been abused YET. Not that there haven't been any cases involving churches being sued. I'm just not aware of any yet.


They are completely different. The Patriot act is wrong because it limits our freedoms whether the government acts differently or not. Saying there is going to be an run to sue churches over gay marriage is nothing like that. In fact, it's the same type of fear mongering politics that got the patriot act passed in the first place.

It's a better comparison to say it's like there is going to be a run to sue restaurants because they serve Coke and but no Pepsi.

My feeling is that most just want to get married to who they want to get married to. Signing the papers in a church or a courthouse is not going to be as important to most people.


I'm not comparing the actual legislation, you dolt, but the reasoning the supporters behind both issues are using.


Whatever.

RedWingFan and FactFinder both have three syllables in their names.

That has about as much factual impact on this thread as what you are now saying.

The bottom line is that banning gay marriage is unconstitutional and courts should rule it as such. And, the Patriot Act is also unconstitutional and should be trashed, too.
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Postby Monker » Thu May 17, 2012 10:15 am

RedWingFan wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:FLASH: Obama's budget goes down in flames...
Unanimously rejected by Democratic Senate...
Fails to get single vote anywhere in Congress...
Even labor unions oppose...


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I think Obama earned himself a new nickname....Ofer Obama.

His budget went down 99-0 in the Senate and 414-0 in the House.

I'll do the math to save Monker 20 minutes of work. That's 0 for 513 Monker.


Right now, bobody really cares...but they will when a certain other party starts demanding Medicare and Social Security and other programs to be cut while asking for tax cuts for the wealthy and big business, and increases to the military budget. People are all anti this and that until it affects them personally. And, that is the problem...without compromise, nothing will get done...and it is the Republicans who refuse to compromise. In fact, the Democrats compromise TOO MUCH.
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Postby slucero » Thu May 17, 2012 11:18 am

in fairness... 100% of the Dems voting against the budget isn't much "compromising" either...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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Postby Monker » Thu May 17, 2012 11:49 am

slucero wrote:in fairness... 100% of the Dems voting against the budget isn't much "compromising" either...


It's all politics.

The Democrats know any budget Obama proposes is not going to pass so they ask to dismiss it.
Republicans force a vote on it so it can be shown how unpopular it is.
Democrats respond by NOBODY voting for it...thus it is not an accurate count anyway.
Republicans spin it as a total rejection.

The EXACT same thing happened last year...look it up.

Maybe instead of going back and forth with the political games, both sides should give a little to get something done...for example, the Democrats agreeing to spending cuts, and the Republicans agreeing to a tax increase for millionaires....

But, of course that is exactly what Obama has been proposing....and that has been rejected - very early in the election cycle.

Now the Republicans are going to have to come up with a proposal...which will be debated right in the middle of the election cycle when everybody will be paying attention.

So, yeah, get your laughs out of this one...but, in a couple months during debates and such, it has a huge potential of backfiring.
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Postby slucero » Thu May 17, 2012 11:58 am

Monker wrote:
slucero wrote:in fairness... 100% of the Dems voting against the budget isn't much "compromising" either...


It's all politics.

The Democrats know any budget Obama proposes is not going to pass so they ask to dismiss it.
Republicans force a vote on it so it can be shown how unpopular it is.
Democrats respond by NOBODY voting for it...thus it is not an accurate count anyway.
Republicans spin it as a total rejection.

The EXACT same thing happened last year...look it up.

Maybe instead of going back and forth with the political games, both sides should give a little to get something done...for example, the Democrats agreeing to spending cuts, and the Republicans agreeing to a tax increase for millionaires....

But, of course that is exactly what Obama has been proposing....and that has been rejected - very early in the election cycle.

Now the Republicans are going to have to come up with a proposal...which will be debated right in the middle of the election cycle when everybody will be paying attention.

So, yeah, get your laughs out of this one...but, in a couple months during debates and such, it has a huge potential of backfiring.



I would have expected a token Dem vote for it .. so they could say they did and supported the President, also giving Obama a stick to prod the Reps with for not having any votes "for". A token set of votes from the Dem led Senate would have given him that. Now if Obama uses this vote as "proof" of Rep non-compromise.. all the Reps will do is remind everyone that no Dems voted for it either...

As you say its all politics..

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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Postby Monker » Thu May 17, 2012 12:07 pm

slucero wrote:
Monker wrote:
slucero wrote:in fairness... 100% of the Dems voting against the budget isn't much "compromising" either...


It's all politics.

The Democrats know any budget Obama proposes is not going to pass so they ask to dismiss it.
Republicans force a vote on it so it can be shown how unpopular it is.
Democrats respond by NOBODY voting for it...thus it is not an accurate count anyway.
Republicans spin it as a total rejection.

The EXACT same thing happened last year...look it up.

Maybe instead of going back and forth with the political games, both sides should give a little to get something done...for example, the Democrats agreeing to spending cuts, and the Republicans agreeing to a tax increase for millionaires....

But, of course that is exactly what Obama has been proposing....and that has been rejected - very early in the election cycle.

Now the Republicans are going to have to come up with a proposal...which will be debated right in the middle of the election cycle when everybody will be paying attention.

So, yeah, get your laughs out of this one...but, in a couple months during debates and such, it has a huge potential of backfiring.



I would have expected a token Dem vote for it .. so they could say they did and supported the President, also giving Obama a stick to prod the Reps with for not having any votes "for". A token set of votes from the Dem led Senate would have given him that. Now if Obama uses this vote as "proof" of Rep non-compromise.. all the Reps will do is remind everyone that no Dems voted for it either...

As you say its all politics..


In a couple months, this vote will be forgotten and it will be Obama pointing out that Republicans want to end MediCare within a decade, cut Social Security benefits, raise student loan interest, raise military spending and lower taxes for the wealthy. THAT is going to piss off a lot of people.
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Postby slucero » Thu May 17, 2012 12:53 pm

Monker wrote:
slucero wrote:
Monker wrote:
slucero wrote:in fairness... 100% of the Dems voting against the budget isn't much "compromising" either...


It's all politics.

The Democrats know any budget Obama proposes is not going to pass so they ask to dismiss it.
Republicans force a vote on it so it can be shown how unpopular it is.
Democrats respond by NOBODY voting for it...thus it is not an accurate count anyway.
Republicans spin it as a total rejection.

The EXACT same thing happened last year...look it up.

Maybe instead of going back and forth with the political games, both sides should give a little to get something done...for example, the Democrats agreeing to spending cuts, and the Republicans agreeing to a tax increase for millionaires....

But, of course that is exactly what Obama has been proposing....and that has been rejected - very early in the election cycle.

Now the Republicans are going to have to come up with a proposal...which will be debated right in the middle of the election cycle when everybody will be paying attention.

So, yeah, get your laughs out of this one...but, in a couple months during debates and such, it has a huge potential of backfiring.



I would have expected a token Dem vote for it .. so they could say they did and supported the President, also giving Obama a stick to prod the Reps with for not having any votes "for". A token set of votes from the Dem led Senate would have given him that. Now if Obama uses this vote as "proof" of Rep non-compromise.. all the Reps will do is remind everyone that no Dems voted for it either...

As you say its all politics..


In a couple months, this vote will be forgotten and it will be Obama pointing out that Republicans want to end MediCare within a decade, cut Social Security benefits, raise student loan interest, raise military spending and lower taxes for the wealthy. THAT is going to piss off a lot of people.


about 50%.... the other 50% will call him a liar...


same ol' same ol'....

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
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Postby strangegrey » Fri May 18, 2012 5:30 am

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Postby Memorex » Fri May 18, 2012 8:34 am

Former Arizona House Speaker Kirk Adams believes that Congress is afraid to take action in the matter for fear that it would trigger “a constitutional crisis unlike one we’ve seen since perhaps the Civil War.”
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Postby slucero » Fri May 18, 2012 8:41 am

When a man in a black suit walks up to you and whispers "Vince Foster" in your ear... you listen...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Fri May 18, 2012 6:39 pm

Great advert...... poor watermelon! poor freedoms.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELWM9VS1PJQ
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Postby Memorex » Sat May 19, 2012 7:45 am

Towards the end of this Lovitz interview, he mentions how he'd like to see the President approach people rather than follow the victim mentality path. I could not have said it better myself.

I'm going to watch Rat Race now. Lovitz was great.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/05/18/lovitz_obama_selling_a_victim_mentality.html
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Postby trekman » Mon May 21, 2012 12:05 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... fWi_1hkS8#! 4 more years and there will be NO getting out of the black hole he has put us in!! :(
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Postby Memorex » Mon May 21, 2012 12:13 am

I think there is a lot of double/triple/quadruple counting in there. Does number 1 cover most of the rest?
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Postby Memorex » Mon May 21, 2012 1:09 am

It's 100% a spending problem. It would be nice if the rich even MADE enough to solve our problems, but we are waaaaay beyond that.
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