President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

Moderator: Andrew

Postby Rick » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:04 pm

conversationpc wrote:
Rick wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Rick wrote:Just to clarify, I would be much less embarrassed to vote for Obama than Bush. And I'll vote for Obama again instead of this pirate the Pubbies are running. I can't fucking believe any American would vote for Romney. You right wingers see Obama as an evil one, but you don't see it in this asshole? That's incredible.


I'm not a Romney fan at all but, by all accounts and even by his detractors (except for that ridiculous dog story), he seems to be a decent individual. I can't really say the same for Obama. You can blame the first year or two on Bush all you want but Obama's had plenty of time to turn things around and just hasn't delivered. On top of that is the "Fast and Furious" scandal which he shamelessly entered into only to delay it until after the election. Say what you will about Romney, and a lot of it would be correct, but Romney's nowhere near as bad as this clown currently living in the White House.


I'm not as big of an Obama fan as I was either. I think he'll get reelected though. I'm pretty sure the American people will decide that Romney's connection with Bain will be enough to vote the other way. I just don't have much hope for the future, if this is all we get to vote on.


I don't see any problem at all with Bain. The accusations against Romney stem mostly from activities that happened AFTER he was with that company and had no part in. And even those charges are spurious since the company basically did what they were supposed to do. Obama has people working on his campaign who've worked for companies that did the same thing Bain did.


That's not going to matter. Obama's campaign will will make big issue of Romney's direct involvement with Bain, how they put people out of work and such, and that will be enough.
I like to sit out on the front porch, where the birds can see me, eating a plate of scrambled eggs, just so they know what I'm capable of.
User avatar
Rick
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 16726
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:29 am
Location: Texas

Postby Rick » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:00 pm

Fact Finder wrote:No less than Billy Boy Clinton even said that Romneys work with Bain Capital was superb, not a thing wrong with it.

And there wasn't a thing wrong with it.

Not a big Romney fan myself, but The Won has got to go....and he will. He has no chance at being re-elected. NONE!

God I wish Deano was here for these MR debates leading up to this. Miss ya big guy! :cry:


I miss him too. His input here would be priceless. :lol:

Whatever happens, we're all in it together.
I like to sit out on the front porch, where the birds can see me, eating a plate of scrambled eggs, just so they know what I'm capable of.
User avatar
Rick
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 16726
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:29 am
Location: Texas

Postby conversationpc » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:39 pm

Rick wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Rick wrote:
conversationpc wrote:
Rick wrote:Just to clarify, I would be much less embarrassed to vote for Obama than Bush. And I'll vote for Obama again instead of this pirate the Pubbies are running. I can't fucking believe any American would vote for Romney. You right wingers see Obama as an evil one, but you don't see it in this asshole? That's incredible.


I'm not a Romney fan at all but, by all accounts and even by his detractors (except for that ridiculous dog story), he seems to be a decent individual. I can't really say the same for Obama. You can blame the first year or two on Bush all you want but Obama's had plenty of time to turn things around and just hasn't delivered. On top of that is the "Fast and Furious" scandal which he shamelessly entered into only to delay it until after the election. Say what you will about Romney, and a lot of it would be correct, but Romney's nowhere near as bad as this clown currently living in the White House.


I'm not as big of an Obama fan as I was either. I think he'll get reelected though. I'm pretty sure the American people will decide that Romney's connection with Bain will be enough to vote the other way. I just don't have much hope for the future, if this is all we get to vote on.


I don't see any problem at all with Bain. The accusations against Romney stem mostly from activities that happened AFTER he was with that company and had no part in. And even those charges are spurious since the company basically did what they were supposed to do. Obama has people working on his campaign who've worked for companies that did the same thing Bain did.


That's not going to matter. Obama's campaign will will make big issue of Romney's direct involvement with Bain, how they put people out of work and such, and that will be enough.


The truth is Bain probably kept more companies afloat, along with their jobs, than they did lose jobs. Unfortunately, the truth doesn't matter to Obama.
My blog = Dave's Dominion
User avatar
conversationpc
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 17830
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:53 am
Location: Slightly south of sanity...

Postby slucero » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:40 pm

Image

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
User avatar
slucero
Compact Disc
 
Posts: 5444
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:17 pm

Postby slucero » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:35 am

Fact Finder wrote:Obama health care law


NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll: More would be pleased if health care law ruled unconstitutional -

@NBCNews

Submitted 39 mins agofrom firstread.msnbc.msn.com

_______________________________________________________________________________


Guess we'll find out Thursday morning what the 9 Supremes decide as our fate.



you know if it does get repealed.. Deano may just come back!

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
User avatar
slucero
Compact Disc
 
Posts: 5444
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:17 pm

Postby Behshad » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:04 am

conversationpc wrote:
Rick wrote:Just to clarify, I would be much less embarrassed to vote for Obama than Bush. And I'll vote for Obama again instead of this pirate the Pubbies are running. I can't fucking believe any American would vote for Romney. You right wingers see Obama as an evil one, but you don't see it in this asshole? That's incredible.


I'm not a Romney fan at all but, by all accounts and even by his detractors (except for that ridiculous dog story), he seems to be a decent individual. I can't really say the same for Obama. You can blame the first year or two on Bush all you want but Obama's had plenty of time to turn things around and just hasn't delivered. On top of that is the "Fast and Furious" scandal which he shamelessly entered into only to delay it until after the election. Say what you will about Romney, and a lot of it would be correct, but Romney's nowhere near as bad as this clown currently living in the White House.



I wouldnt say he hasnt tried to turn things aorund and he sure has delivered, but its hard to see what he has delivered when you have a blindfold on, like FakeFinder does ;)


1. Saved the collapse of the American automotive industry by making GM restructure before bailing them out, and putting incentive money to help the industry

2. Shifted the focus of the war from Iraq to Afghanistan, and putting the emphasis on reducing terrorism where it should have been all along

3. Relaxed Anti-American tensions throughout the world

4. Signed order to close the prisoner “torture camp” at Guantanamo Bay

5. Has made the environment a national priority, and a primary source for job creation

6. Has made education a national priority by putting emphasis and money behind new ideas like charter schools, but speaking directly to school children in telling them they have to do their part.

7. Won the Nobel Peace Prize

8. $789 billion economic stimulus plan

9. Appointment of first Latina to the Supreme Court

10. Attractive tax write-offs for those who buy hybrid automobiles

11. Authorized construction/opening of additional health centers to care for veterans

12. Renewed dialogue with NATO and other allies and partners on strategic issues.

13. Beginning the process of reforming and restructuring the military 20 years after the Cold War to a more modern fighting force… this includes new procurement policies, increasing size of military, new technology and cyber units and operations, etc.


14. Better body armor is now being provided to our troops

15. “Cash for clunkers” program offers vouchers to trade in fuel inefficient, polluting old cars for new cars; stimulates auto sales

16. Changed the failing/status quo military command in Afghanistan

17. Closed offshore tax safe havens

18. Deployed additional troops to Afghanistan

19. Ended media “blackout” on war casualties; reporting full information

20. Ended previous policy of awarding no-bid defense contracts

21. . Ended media blackout on war casualties and the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB.

22. Ended previous policy of cutting the FDA and circumventing FDA rules

23. Ended previous practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug manufacturers for cheaper drugs; the federal government is now realizing hundreds of millions in savings

24. Ended previous practice of having White House aides rewrite scientific and environmental rules, regulations, and reports

25. American Recovery and Reinvestment Act has created 2.1 million jobs (as of 12/31/09).

26. Ended previous policy of not regulating and labeling carbon dioxide emissions

27. Ended previous policy of offering tax benefits to corporations who outsource American jobs; the new policy is to promote in-sourcing to bring jobs back

28. Ended previous policy on torture; the US now has a no torture policy and is in compliance with the Geneva Convention standards

29. . Launched Recovery.gov to track spending from the Recovery Act, an unprecedented step to provide transparency and accountability through technology.

30. Ended previous practice of protecting credit card companies; in place of it are new consumer protections from credit card industry’s predatory practices

31. Ended previous “stop-loss” policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date

32. Energy producing plants must begin preparing to produce 15% of their energy from renewable sources

33. Established a National Performance Officer charged with saving the federal government money and making federal operations more efficient

34. Established a new cyber security office

35. Expanded the SCHIP program to cover health care for 4 million more children

36. Expanding vaccination programs

37. Families of fallen soldiers have expenses

38. . Provided the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) with more than $1.4 billion to improve services to America’s Veterans.

39. Federal support for stem-cell and new biomedical research

40. Funds for high-speed, broadband Internet access to K-12 schools

41. Responded with compassion and leadership to the earthquake in Haiti

42. Immediate and efficient response to the floods in North Dakota and other natural disasters

43. . Launched Business.gov – enabling conversation and online collaboration between small business owners, government representatives and industry experts in discussion forums relevant to starting and managing a business. Great for the economy.

44. Improved housing for military personnel

45. Improved conditions at Walter Reed Military Hospital and other military hospitals

46. Changed failing war strategy in Afghanistan.

47. Improving benefits for veterans

48. Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants…) after years of neglect

49. Donated his $1.4 million Nobel Prize to nonprofits.

50. Increasing opportunities in AmeriCorps program

51. Provided tax credits to first-time home buyers through the Worker, Homeownership, and Business Assistance Act of 2009 to revitalize the U.S. housing market.

52. Increasing pay and benefits for military personnel

53. Increasing student loans

54. Instituted a new policy on Cuba, allowing Cuban families to return “home” to visit loved ones

55. Cracked down on companies that deny sick pay, vacation and health insurance to workers by abusing the employee classification of independent contractor. Such companies also avoid paying Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes for those workers.

56. Limited salaries of senior White House aides; cut to $100,000

57. Limits on lobbyists’ access to the White House

58. Protected 300,000 education jobs, such as teachers, principals, librarians, and counselors through the Recovery Act that would have otherwise been lost.

59. Limits on White House aides working for lobbyists after their tenure in the administration

60. Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act on February 4, 2009, provides quality health care to 11 million kids – 4 million who were previously uninsured.

61. Lower drug costs for seniors

62. Making more loans available to small businesses

63. Many more press conferences and town halls and much more media access than previous administration

64. . Signed the Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act, the first piece of comprehensive legislation aimed at improving the lives of Americans living with paralysis


65. New Afghan War policy that limits aerial bombing and prioritizes aid, development of infrastructure, diplomacy, and good government practices by Afghans

66. Announced creation of a Joint Virtual Lifetime Electronic Record for members of the U.S. Armed Forces to improve quality of medical care.

67. New federal funding for science and research labs

68. New funds for school construction

69. Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut spending

70. Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices

71. . Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals.

72. Phasing out the expensive F-22 war plane and other outdated weapons systems, which weren’t even used or needed in Iraq/Afghanistan

73. Reengaged in the agreements/talks on global warming and greenhouse gas emissions

74. Provided tax credit to workers thus cutting taxes for 95% of America's working families.

75. Reengaged in the treaties/agreements to protect the Antarctic

76. Removed restrictions on embryonic stem-cell research

77. . Helped reverse a downward spiral of the stock market. On January 19, 2009, the last day of President Bush's presidency, the Dow closed at 8,218.22. In February 2010, the Dow closed at 10,309.24

78. Renewed loan guarantees for Israel

79. Restarted the nuclear non-proliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure/protocols

80. Provided attractive tax write-offs for those who buy hybrid automobiles.

81. Returned money authorized for refurbishment of White House offices and private living quarters

82. Sent envoys to Middle East and other parts of the world that had been neglected for years; reengaging in multilateral and bilateral talks and diplomacy

83. Unveiled a program on Earth Day 2009 to develop the renewable energy projects on the waters of our Outer Continental Shelf that produce electricity from wind, wave, and ocean currents. These regulations will enable, for the first time ever, the nation to tap into our ocean’s vast sustainable resources to generate clean energy in an environmentally sound and safe manner.


84. Signed national service legislation; expanded national youth service program

85. States are permitted to enact federal fuel efficiency standards above federal standards

86. Students struggling to make college loan payments can have their loans refinanced

87. Successful release of US captain held by Somali pirates; authorized the SEALS to do their job

88. The FDA is now regulating tobacco

89. Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date.

90. The missile defense program is being cut by $1.4 billion in 2010

91. The public can meet with federal housing insurers to refinance (the new plan can be completed in one day) a mortgage if they are having trouble paying

92. The “secret detention” facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere are being closed

93. US financial and banking rescue plan

94. US Navy increasing patrols off Somali coast

95. . Signed the Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act to stop fraud and wasteful spending in the defense procurement and contracting system.

96. Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any president in his first six months in office

97. Improved relations with Iran

98. Improved U.S. policy on climate change

99. Set timetable for exiting Iraq (already started removing troops)

100. Improved relations with Russia

101. Improved relations with the Islamic World

102. Made progress towards greater cooperation on limiting nuclear proliferation

103. Economic stimulus plan has created jobs. (Unemployment rate decreasing)

104. Drastically slowed down the recession

105. Saved Wall Street

106. Passed the Lilly Ledbetter Act (equal work for equal pay) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilly_Ledb ... ct_of_2009

107. HEALTHCARE REFORM

108. Ordered the military operation that killed Osama Bin Laden

THIS LIST IS NOT DONE / UPDATED. IT IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Image
User avatar
Behshad
MP3
 
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:08 am

Postby Behshad » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:17 am

Fact Finder wrote:Geez B, wipe the jizz off your chin. Too bad that The Won, is one and done. :wink:


65 Outrageous Lies of Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... MhPSPdEcnM



Image



and btw, that the libs even include the Nobel Prize as one of his accomplishments is tooooooo fucking funny. :lol:


done ? :lol: You still think that clown Romney has a chance this November ? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Image
User avatar
Behshad
MP3
 
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:08 am

Postby Behshad » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:26 am

Fact Finder wrote:Romney is gonna wipe the electoral college slate clean with Obamas ass. Book it! :wink:

O will be lucky to win one of the 57 states. :lol:


Look who's got jizz all over their face to the point its covering both their eyes. :lol: Good luck , you're gonna need it.

Image

Image
Image
User avatar
Behshad
MP3
 
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:08 am

Postby The Sushi Hunter » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:30 am

Image

Biden's picture would better fit that quote.
User avatar
The Sushi Hunter
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:54 am
Location: Hidden Valley, Japan

Postby The Sushi Hunter » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:30 am

Fact Finder wrote:Romney is gonna wipe the electoral college slate clean with Obamas ass. Book it! :wink:

O will be lucky to win one of the 57 states. :lol:


O will get California for sure. Are you aware of how many sponges we got in this state, both domestic and imported?
User avatar
The Sushi Hunter
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:54 am
Location: Hidden Valley, Japan

Postby Behshad » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:43 am

Fact Finder wrote:O is laying the groundwork for his defeat..


Obama prepping thousands of lawyers for election...

'I WILL BE OUTSPENT'...

DEM POLL: Obama slips in Ohio...

Romney ahead in VA...

MO Dem Sen to Skip Party's Convention...

FakeFinder brainwashed by Rush Limbaugh ?

Romney the New Darling of Silicon Valley?

:D
Image
User avatar
Behshad
MP3
 
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:08 am

Postby The Sushi Hunter » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:40 am

Fact Finder wrote:Image


Would this be what they call "leveling the playing field?"
User avatar
The Sushi Hunter
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:54 am
Location: Hidden Valley, Japan

Postby No Surprize » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:43 am

I know one thing from having Jeb and now Tricky Ricky here in Florida. I will NEVER vote for a Republican again in the senate, for the legislature, for governor or president. As long as I fucking LIVE!
"Steve "The Riffmaster" Clark"

My generations "Jimmy Page"
User avatar
No Surprize
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:55 am
Location: Captiva Island,Florida

Postby conversationpc » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:43 pm

No Surprize wrote:I know one thing from having Jeb and now Tricky Ricky here in Florida. I will NEVER vote for a Republican again in the senate, for the legislature, for governor or president. As long as I fucking LIVE!


But you'll vote for a Democrat? If so, that makes no sense at all. Both parties have corrupt politicians and I can almost guarantee you that one is no worse than the other. The best thing to do is just research the individual candidates, regardless of party. You'll probably still vote for a few duds but if you vote for just politicians from a single part like the Democrats, you're guaranteed to vote for one anyway.

I used to vote straight Republican but haven't done so for many years now. In the last election, of 10 contested races, I voted for 6 Republicans, three Libertarians, and one Democrat. It still floors me that people nowadays will only vote for one party. That's a recipe for disaster.
My blog = Dave's Dominion
User avatar
conversationpc
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 17830
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:53 am
Location: Slightly south of sanity...

Postby conversationpc » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:43 pm

Image
My blog = Dave's Dominion
User avatar
conversationpc
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 17830
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:53 am
Location: Slightly south of sanity...

Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:25 am

Fact Finder wrote:Get ready for your “Vegtable Purchase Mandate” and “Electric Car” mandate. Because according to the Supreme Court the Feds can force you to purchase anything they deem is good for you... :( :( :(



Crap isnt it. Its unjust and immoral to force someone to do something against its will John Roberts was appointed by a Republican. Any of you Republicans out there who think that Republicans or any of their appointees will ever protect your liberty, forget it. Don't vote Republican , vote Libertarian.
Matt
User avatar
Gin and Tonic Sky
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 1926
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:46 am
Location: in a purple and gold haze

Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:44 am

Fact Finder wrote:
Gin and Tonic Sky wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:Get ready for your “Vegtable Purchase Mandate” and “Electric Car” mandate. Because according to the Supreme Court the Feds can force you to purchase anything they deem is good for you... :( :( :(



Crap isnt it. Its unjust and immoral to force someone to do something against its will John Roberts was appointed by a Republican. Any of you Republicans out there who think that Republicans or any of their appointees will ever protect your liberty, forget it. Don't vote Republican , vote Libertarian.



The Supremes say it's a tax...well then..If It's a tax, it can be repealed by the House, it can be defunded by the House. The lawyers have done their part, now back to the Politicians and November.


And what politicians are going to fix it , the Republican nominee who had nearly the same fucking law in Massachusetts. how many taxes have ever been repealed? Also did you know that the Obama administration has accelerated the implementation of Obama-care, its going to be so far down the road implemented that you wont ever be able to unpeel it

For giggles and shits - Google " Liverpool Care Pathway" and read about how the British run health service is euthanizing patients who are sick to save resources. This will be happening in the US now.!!

actually heres the link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... e-NHS.html
Matt
User avatar
Gin and Tonic Sky
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 1926
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:46 am
Location: in a purple and gold haze

Postby slucero » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:29 am

what a fucking travesty our country has become... The Constitution burns.....

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
User avatar
slucero
Compact Disc
 
Posts: 5444
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:17 pm

Postby Behshad » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:43 am

slucero wrote:what a fucking travesty our country has become... The Constitution burns.....


Following the constituion down to a T, without trying to adapting it to the modern society is as bad as the countries in the Middle East trying to run their country based on religion books :wink:
Image
User avatar
Behshad
MP3
 
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:08 am

Postby slucero » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:51 am

Behshad wrote:
slucero wrote:what a fucking travesty our country has become... The Constitution burns.....


Following the constituion down to a T, without trying to adapting it to the modern society is as bad as the countries in the Middle East trying to run their country based on religion books :wink:



Wrong.... Here's Justice Roberts interpretation...

It’s important that Chief Justice John Roberts Jr., while holding that the individual mandate passes muster as a tax, didn’t buy the Obama administration’s chief argument – that Congress can use its powers to regulate interstate commerce to require people to buy insurance.

Many of the law’s challengers had argued that were Congress able to do so, then it could force people buy many other things, like, say, broccoli, because it’s good for them.

Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. agreed upholding the mandate as within Congress’s powers under the so-called Commerce Clause would open up a can of worms. From his opinion:

"Given its expansive scope, it is no surprise that Congress has employed the commerce power in a wide variety of ways to address the pressing needs of the time. But Congress has never attempted to rely on that power to compel individuals not engaged in commerce to purchase an unwanted product…..The power to regulate commerce presupposes the existence of commercial activity to be regulated. If the power to “regulate”something included the power to create it, many of the provisions in the Constitution would be superfluous."

For example, he says, if the if the power to regulate the armed forces or the value of money included the power to bring the subject of the regulation into existence, the grant of such powers would have been unnecessary. He goes on,

"The individual mandate, however, does not regulate existing commercial activity. It instead compels individuals to become active in commerce by purchasing a product, on the ground that their failure to do so affects interstate commerce. Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority."




The SCOTUS upheld it as a TAX.. not as a legislative act...

The Obama administrations argument has been, all along that the Commerce Clause gave Congress the authority to do this... Roberts has just said "no it doesn't"... meaning Congress has no authority to force people to buy anything... and as such it considers it a tax.

The court essentially punted.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
User avatar
slucero
Compact Disc
 
Posts: 5444
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:17 pm

Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:54 am

Slucero you are right the court did punt. Far worse than any constitutional argument is the acceptance of the idea the state can force individuals to do things - in this case the Supreme Court is affirming that compulsion is ok as long as it is through taxation. If that really is sanctioned by the Constitution like the majority opinion of the SCOTUS says than it is the Constitution is unjust I dont agree with the majority opinion of course I don't think the Constitution says that - But what it does highlight is that you need to fight for the underlying principles of the founders (inviolable individual rights) and not just pay lip service to what the Constitution says - because then the arguments become legalese and semantics. [/b]
Matt
User avatar
Gin and Tonic Sky
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 1926
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:46 am
Location: in a purple and gold haze

Postby The Sushi Hunter » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:15 am

The last time I missed a day at work for being sick was back in 93'. The last time I was in need of medical treatment was in 77'. The incentive was to work hard to stay healthy so my medical costs would be low. With this Obamacare shit, now there is no incentive to stay healthy because you still have to pay for it, healthy or not.
Last edited by The Sushi Hunter on Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
The Sushi Hunter
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:54 am
Location: Hidden Valley, Japan

Postby slucero » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:17 am

Gin and Tonic Sky wrote:Slucero you are right the court did punt. Far worse than any constitutional argument is the acceptance of the idea the state can force individuals to do things - in this case the Supreme Court is affirming that compulsion is ok as long as it is through taxation. If that really is sanctioned by the Constitution like the majority opinion of the SCOTUS says than it is the Constitution is unjust I dont agree with the majority opinion of course I don't think the Constitution says that - But what it does highlight is that you need to fight for the underlying principles of the founders (inviolable individual rights) and not just pay lip service to what the Constitution says - because then the arguments become legalese and semantics. [/b]


Congress has the constitutional right to levy taxes.. and although The ACA method is suspect, it still is lawful.. as a tax.

Had the Court upheld it as a legislative action.. it could never be challenged.. as a tax it can.

So - for the very reasons you just cited - Roberts interpretation creates the opportunity for a future Congress to overturn it..

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
User avatar
slucero
Compact Disc
 
Posts: 5444
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:17 pm

Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:17 am

The Sushi Hunter wrote:The last time I missed a day at work for being sick was back in 93'. The last time I was in need of medical treatment was in 77'. The incentive was to work hard to stay healthy so my medical costs would be low. With this Obamacare shit, now there is no incentive to stay healthy because you still have to pay for it.


until you get old and then the government is rationing health care and decides you don't get treatment as you are not young enough to invest in, then you'll have an incentive not to get sick!
Matt
User avatar
Gin and Tonic Sky
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 1926
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:46 am
Location: in a purple and gold haze

Postby The Sushi Hunter » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:22 am

This is just the latest in a series of nails in the coffin for America.
User avatar
The Sushi Hunter
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 4881
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:54 am
Location: Hidden Valley, Japan

Postby conversationpc » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:53 am

Behshad wrote:
I wouldnt say he hasnt tried to turn things aorund and he sure has delivered, but its hard to see what he has delivered when you have a blindfold on, like FakeFinder does ;)


1. Saved the collapse of the American automotive industry by making GM restructure before bailing them out, and putting incentive money to help the industry

2. Shifted the focus of the war from Iraq to Afghanistan, and putting the emphasis on reducing terrorism where it should have been all along

3. Relaxed Anti-American tensions throughout the world...{ad infinitum}


I had to laugh out loud when I saw this list. Really? Just the first three alone are easily refutable.

1 - They saved nothing and lots of folks have speculated that GM would've been better served and more viable in the long term if they'd simply have gone through bankruptcy to restructure themselves rather than relying on government.

2 - Bush's adding drastically to the numbers of troops in Iraq allowed him to do this and, even with that said, Afghanistan is still a continuing disaster under Obama. I can't argue that we shouldn't have been in Iraq to begin with but this is hardly attributable to Obama.

3 - I don't see much, if any, difference in the way America is looked at around the world. The exception, of course, being Israel since The One's administration has treated them with contempt since the beginning.
My blog = Dave's Dominion
User avatar
conversationpc
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 17830
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:53 am
Location: Slightly south of sanity...

Postby conversationpc » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:07 am

Behshad wrote:
slucero wrote:what a fucking travesty our country has become... The Constitution burns.....


Following the constituion down to a T, without trying to adapting it to the modern society is as bad as the countries in the Middle East trying to run their country based on religion books :wink:


Your justification here would pave the way for dictatorial powers being OK to use. There has to be a strict adaption of the Constitution or you have lawlessness. The framers already put into place a way to change the constitution, by AMENDING it.
My blog = Dave's Dominion
User avatar
conversationpc
Super Audio CD
 
Posts: 17830
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:53 am
Location: Slightly south of sanity...

Postby Memorex » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:47 am

I think today's ruling is a mixed blessing. There are a lot of good things in the law and we'll have to see how that shakes out financially. I think it will really make things worse and more expensive, but maybe America will have a way of righting that.

Most importantly, the ruling said a mandate is not constitutional. And that is vital. It's what I was hoping for all along. That's a big statement. So now, every time something like this comes up, politicians will have to argue the merits of an added tax on the country. That's something they didn't have to do during the initial debate. So it sets an important precedent.

Obama may have some trouble here because he promised no tax increase on the middle class. Well, this is about the biggest tax increase in history, I imagine. If he lets the tax rates go back up then wow, it's really going to harm a whole lot of people. Especially poor and middle class folks. Add the gas prices in there and it's a tough haul. Hopefully the country will turn around soon.
User avatar
Memorex
Stereo LP
 
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:30 pm

Postby Gin and Tonic Sky » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:24 am

Memorex wrote:

Most importantly, the ruling said a mandate is not constitutional. And that is vital. It's what I was hoping for all along. That's a big statement..


I don't think it said that at all. It said that you can pass mandates and coerce people as long as you structure it as a tax. That's fanatatically unjust, and if that were really Constitutional then the Constitution would be fantastically unjust.
Matt
User avatar
Gin and Tonic Sky
Cassette Tape
 
Posts: 1926
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:46 am
Location: in a purple and gold haze

Postby slucero » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:56 am

Gin and Tonic Sky wrote:
Memorex wrote:

Most importantly, the ruling said a mandate is not constitutional. And that is vital. It's what I was hoping for all along. That's a big statement..


I don't think it said that at all. It said that you can pass mandates and coerce people as long as you structure it as a tax. That's fanatatically unjust, and if that is were really Constitutional then the Constitution would be fantastically unjust.



Correct. Roberts comments reinforce Congress' right to tax... but not mandate purchase..

It’s important that Chief Justice John Roberts Jr., while holding that the individual mandate passes muster as a tax, didn’t buy the Obama administration’s chief argument – that Congress can use its powers to regulate interstate commerce to require people to buy insurance.

Many of the law’s challengers had argued that were Congress able to do so, then it could force people buy many other things, like, say, broccoli, because it’s good for them.

Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. agreed upholding the mandate as within Congress’s powers under the so-called Commerce Clause would open up a can of worms. From his opinion:

"Given its expansive scope, it is no surprise that Congress has employed the commerce power in a wide variety of ways to address the pressing needs of the time. But Congress has never attempted to rely on that power to compel individuals not engaged in commerce to purchase an unwanted product…..The power to regulate commerce presupposes the existence of commercial activity to be regulated. If the power to “regulate”something included the power to create it, many of the provisions in the Constitution would be superfluous."

For example, he says, if the if the power to regulate the armed forces or the value of money included the power to bring the subject of the regulation into existence, the grant of such powers would have been unnecessary. He goes on,

"The individual mandate, however, does not regulate existing commercial activity. It instead compels individuals to become active in commerce by purchasing a product, on the ground that their failure to do so affects interstate commerce. Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority."





I think Roberts is smart like a fox.. I'm sure he realizes that other legislation like this could be brought forth and wind up in his lap... so by ruling it a tax he knows this will likely come back to be the SCOTUS where it can be decided once and for all.. and he doesn't want there to be any 2nd-guessing... so ruling it a tax puts it squarely back in Congress/POTUS lap... they have to prove it isn't... and you can be damned sure it will be contested again when enacted.. and SCOTUS can then act and decide based on it being an unfair tax..


Until this is decided for good, no one will bring similar legislation... too politically risky..

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


~Albert Einstein
User avatar
slucero
Compact Disc
 
Posts: 5444
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:17 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Snowmobiles For The Sahara

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests