Is Def Leppard still Def Leppard without Steve Clarke??

[Milos]

First, Phil Collen is one of the most underrated guitarists ever...you let this guy go and he can tear it up. Not to mention I think he is the only one left who wants to rock out.

I agree that he is underrated, but Phil is just like Joe and Vivian and will do or say anything to try and regain their popularity with the hoi polloi. I started noticing statements in interviews with the band that made me doubt their sincerity as far back as 1996 when the Slang album was released. In most interviews they just try to say things that will make them sound hip and current.

Example 1: “I think it’s refreshing being in the ‘90s. You don’t have to do Olympics on the guitar anymore.” – Phil Collen, Guitar Magazine, June 1996

Example 2: “We ditched the Rockmans and the Digitechs, and used a very direct guitar sound on almost all tracks—Les Pauls into Marshall amps.” – Vivian Campbell, Guitar Magazine, June 1996

Example 3: In another interview for a guitar magazine in 2000, Phil states how refreshing it is for the ‘90s to be over because musicians are starting to play their instruments more proficiently again. He then name drops a bunch of current bands that he loves including Linkin Park.

I play guitar, and Phil Collen has always been one of my favorite guitar heroes. So, when he goes on a rant against being technically proficient and using effects processors it makes me sick.

The problem with Leppard is that they took their fanbase for granted, lost their major songwriter, and started churning radio songs instead of good songs. The popmetal scene just got stale, and they are a major reason for it. Adrenalize was an abomination that not only killed Def Leppard, but I think it took a lot of air out of the popmetal balloon. Had they come out with a classic album in 1992 the landscape would have been very different...

This is true. They have taken us all for granted while they try and pander to the lowest common denominator casual music fan that isn't interested in a new Def Leppard album at all--good or otherwise. They are grasping at straws trying to be huge again while ignoring their core fanbase--the ones who actual buy what they put out. Def Leppard is still a huge concert draw, but only as a nostalgia act. Artistically the band is dead.

[deflep_mr]

Artistically the band is dead.

Lets review the last few albums....

Slang....I loved that album and give the band huge credit for sounding current but still unique

Euphoria ... I think this album could of been huge in 2006...in fact if Yeah! was Euphoria "Promises" would of launched them back to prominence....unfortunately the anti-80s movement was still strong.

X ... total miscalculation....IMO they went TOO far....

Yeah....coming off a huge album like Hysteria, Yeah! would of been a really great album for the fans...coming off a failure like X and then a 2-disc greatest hits its just a really momentum killer...

I think the next album they put out will seal the fate of this band...it better be really really good.

[Defshep]

After all is said and done, I think Leppard will do a rock album next. That's what they should've been doing all along. I remember Joe Elliot commenting that AC/DC put out the same album over and over, and it always goes platinum. Def Leppard have always tried to distance themselves from the "Wingers and Warrants" (Joe's words) that saturated rock and mainstream radio in the 80s. They probably bowed to pressure from their management (with whom they've parted ways with since last year) with the release of Slang. It was a good album, but like has been said, not Def Leppard. I was in rock radio when Work It Out was released as the first single. Programmers liked it, but ultimately it just laid there with little to no fan response. It just felt forced. My God, Tripping Daisy opened for them on that tour! Tripping f***king Daisy! A record company rep told me a story about a conversation with Joe. She said he was apprehensive about releasing Breathe A Sigh as a single, because Def Leppard wanted to be a "rock band". She then proceeded to tell him, "you're Bon Jovi, deal with it!" Meaning, they'd lost their credibility as a true rock band. That probably started when Let's Get Rocked was released as the first single from Adrenalize. Everybody I worked with made fun of it, and I knew my favorite band was headed for hard times. Even though Rolling Stone gave Adrenalize a four-star review! Which was funny, because they accused Def Leppard of losing their identity with Slang, giving it two stars. Euphoria sounded familiar, but even the band admitted they were trying for the Hysteria sound, because that's obviously what the fans wanted. It did sell more copies than Slang, but again, sounded forced. I really think X was where the band wants to be now. It should've spawned top 40 hits, but it's true, they just don't look MTV enough. I also think they killed themselves at rock redio with that album as well. Think about who's playing Rock On. Mostly classic rock stations. Mainstream rock has been very slow to grasp any new DL, and that's a shame, considering they're history together. I don't think they want to put out a rock album, but I think they absolutely have to. They need an outside producer to really be objective. Maybe Bob Rock? But do we really want to hear a great rock album from the Leps, if it's not really who they are anymore? It's kind of depressing.

[Defshep]

Just wanted to add I think things would be about the same if Steve were still around today.

[jrnyman28]

Clearly "good" metal still sold in the 90's: Metallica sold what, a kazillion copies of the Black Album; Pantera sold millions; Megadeth sold well with Youthanasia and Countdown to Extinction. Heck, Slayer's Divine Intervention sold more than Slang, not bad for an extreme metal band.

How can you compare those bands to Def Leppard. This is the very reason I do not think of Def Leppard as metal.

[Defshep]

Clearly "good" metal still sold in the 90's: Metallica sold what, a kazillion copies of the Black Album; Pantera sold millions; Megadeth sold well with Youthanasia and Countdown to Extinction. Heck, Slayer's Divine Intervention sold more than Slang, not bad for an extreme metal band.

How can you compare those bands to Def Leppard. This is the very reason I do not think of Def Leppard as metal.

Agreed.

[deflep_mr]

I think a good way to think about it is that Def Leppard is a brand name...and that name for most of us implies melodic rock anthems something that the band hasnt done well since the 80s. And I think we as fans need to decide...when do we stop being fans.....how many bad albums is it going to take for us to actually say..."im not buying this"

[Cato Alumni]

How can you compare those bands to Def Leppard. This is the very reason I do not think of Def Leppard as metal.

Why not? They are were a metal band. The presumption here is that a metal record like during the 80's wouldn't sell. I'm giving you reasons why a good record would. I mean, if you don't like the bands I mentioned, substitute AC/DC, Van Halen, Motley Crue, etc.

Leppard has just put out sub-par work for the last 20 years and this is their reward.

[Dream Police]

I think Def Leppard have been in a steady decline since Steve died.
Adrenalize was ok, Slang was good, but didnt sound like Def Leppard, Euphoria was them trying too hard to sound like Def Leppard again, and some of the songs were appalling. X was awful too, there's only one song on that I ever listen to (Four Letter Word) and that sounds a bad AC/DC tribute song.
As for Yeah... when I first heard about it I thought it sounded like a desperate idea then after all the fuss about the leaked version I just couldnt be bothered with it. Having said that I think the leaked version sounds better than the real thing.
Also all the comments from Viv about not liking rock and all of Joe's comments about, well, pretty much everything really, have just made me give up on them.
I'll still listen to the first 4 albums but thats about it, which is a shame cos I used to love this band.

[T-Bone]

How can you compare those bands to Def Leppard. This is the very reason I do not think of Def Leppard as metal.

They are were a metal band.

They never have been and never will be a "METAL" band. DL started out as a "Hard Rock" band and gradually morphed into just plain Rock or Pop rock. You really need to look into your genre definitions. If you want METAL, you look at 80's style Pantera, Lizzy Bordon, Accept, Judas Priest, etc.... Hard Rock was more along the lines of Def Leppard, Kiss, 80's Bon Jovi, etc... There's definately a difference between "Metal" and "Hard Rock"

[defbezerk]

Went back and forth on the Wingers, Warrants and Slaughters. At first he was happy for those groups coming in and in 1996 se stated how they tried to copy their sound and saturated the market. All not bad groups especially Winger, the most underated band of all. Sorry to say, but "Pull" was a better album than Hysteria

[jrnyman28]

How can you compare those bands to Def Leppard. This is the very reason I do not think of Def Leppard as metal.

Why not? They are were a metal band. The presumption here is that a metal record like during the 80's wouldn't sell. I'm giving you reasons why a good record would. I mean, if you don't like the bands I mentioned, substitute AC/DC, Van Halen, Motley Crue, etc.

Leppard has just put out sub-par work for the last 20 years and this is their reward.

I like the bands you listed, but they do not compare to Leppard in any way.
And you cannot substitute the 2nd list of bands listed because they did NOT sell well in the 90's.

[Cato Alumni]

I like the bands you listed, but they do not compare to Leppard in any way.

Why not, they are all popmetal bands.

And you cannot substitute the 2nd list of bands listed because they did NOT sell well in the 90's.

Um..

AC/DC- Stiff ipper lip platinum
AC/DC- Ball Breaker platinum
AC/DC- Razor's Edge 3x platinum
(not to mention any of their live stuff which all have gone multi-platinum)
Motley Crue - S/t gold
Motlely Crue - Generation Swine gold
Van Halen - Balance 2x platinum
Van Halen - III gold

These bands all sold as well as Def Leppard and were never nearly as popular. And certainly today (or since the 90's), they are more popular.

They never have been and never will be a "METAL" band. DL started out as a "Hard Rock" band and gradually morphed into just plain Rock or Pop rock. You really need to look into your genre definitions. If you want METAL, you look at 80's style Pantera, Lizzy Bordon, Accept, Judas Priest, etc.... Hard Rock was more along the lines of Def Leppard, Kiss, 80's Bon Jovi, etc... There's definately a difference between "Metal" and "Hard Rock"

As I posted earlier...

"I was watching the Maiden early years DVD and it showed how EMI had the money to only take on one "metal" act in 1980, and had to choose between Maiden and Def Leppard.

Of course, Leppard went on to success as part of the New Wave of British Heavy "Metal" scene and got countless articles in Kerrang!, Hit Parader and other "metal" magazines. They even went to the 1983 "metal" festival in Dortmund, Germany along with Maiden, Priest, Scorpions, and other "metal" acts."

To think Leppard was not metal is just trying to be revisionist. Every teenager that had Sreaming for Vengenace or Number of the Beast also had Pyromania or High n Dry. Most teenagers that bought Hysteria were also fans of Dokken, Scorpions, Crue and the rest of them.

[NealIsGod]

To think Leppard was not metal is just trying to be revisionist. Every teenager that had Sreaming for Vengenace or Number of the Beast also had Pyromania or High n Dry. Most teenagers that bought Hysteria were also fans of Dokken, Scorpions, Crue and the rest of them.

Well, I heard "Photograph" in the grocery store last week. Don't think I will be hearing "Run the the Hills" anytime soon.

[jrnyman28]

I like the bands you listed, but they do not compare to Leppard in any way.

Why not, they are all popmetal bands.

You cannot honestly say that Metallica , Pantera, Megadeth and Slayer are considered pop-metal!!

And you cannot substitute the 2nd list of bands listed because they did NOT sell well in the 90's.

Um..

AC/DC- Stiff ipper lip platinum
AC/DC- Ball Breaker platinum
AC/DC- Razor's Edge 3x platinum
(not to mention any of their live stuff which all have gone multi-platinum)
Motley Crue - S/t gold
Motlely Crue - Generation Swine gold
Van Halen - Balance 2x platinum
Van Halen - III gold

These bands all sold as well as Def Leppard and were never nearly as popular. And certainly today (or since the 90's), they are more popular.

Other than VH's Balance and AC/DC's Razor's Edge, the other CDs were almost flops by those band's standards. Also, VH and AC/DC have a larger built in audience than Motley Crue, which could explain the larger sales numbers. However, Def Leppard reached a HUGE audience in the 80's yet failed to retain much of it due to such long periods in between releasing new material. While sales of individual CDs may exemplify differently, I will venture to say that AC/DC and Van Halen have always been more popular than Def Leppard due to the length of their career and sustained popularity. And Motley Crue, to this day, is more popular (call it infamy if you wish) than Def Leppard...

They never have been and never will be a "METAL" band. DL started out as a "Hard Rock" band and gradually morphed into just plain Rock or Pop rock. You really need to look into your genre definitions. If you want METAL, you look at 80's style Pantera, Lizzy Bordon, Accept, Judas Priest, etc.... Hard Rock was more along the lines of Def Leppard, Kiss, 80's Bon Jovi, etc... There's definately a difference between "Metal" and "Hard Rock"

As I posted earlier...

"I was watching the Maiden early years DVD and it showed how EMI had the money to only take on one "metal" act in 1980, and had to choose between Maiden and Def Leppard.

Of course, Leppard went on to success as part of the New Wave of British Heavy "Metal" scene and got countless articles in Kerrang!, Hit Parader and other "metal" magazines. They even went to the 1983 "metal" festival in Dortmund, Germany along with Maiden, Priest, Scorpions, and other "metal" acts."

Just because EMI lumped them with Maiden does not make Leppard metal. BUT I will give you this...Lep was a LOT closer metal on On Through The Night, but continued to distance themselves from "metal" with every subsequent release.

To think Leppard was not metal is just trying to be revisionist. Every teenager that had Sreaming for Vengenace or Number of the Beast also had Pyromania or High n Dry.

Maybe, but that doesn;t mean the music was the same style...I had Screaming For Vengeance, Escape and Get Lucky. Are you going to call Journey and Loverboy "meta"?

Most teenagers that bought Hysteria were also fans of Dokken, Scorpions, Crue and the rest of them.

And that contradicts your previous examples of how Lep was metal. Dokken, Scorps and Crue are not "metal" either...

[deflep_mr]

Ok...we can go back and forth on this issue forever....but I think the point that should be made is that....

Def Leppard was a metal band until they crossed over to pop... they USED metal to get popular...and when they were done they dropped the metal tag and the fans that came with it...

[Cato Alumni]

Dokken, Scorps and Crue are not "metal" either...

Why didn't you say that in the first place? All that tells me is that your definition of "hard rock" is actually metal in the real world!

Wow, I can only wonder what Klaus would say when you tell him he's not a heavy metal band! Yikes!

[Cato Alumni]

Ok...we can go back and forth on this issue forever....but I think the point that should be made is that....

Certainly. It just annoys the hell out of me that some people are embarrassed for liking metal, and then proceed to rewrite history to their liking. Hmm.. does that sound like any band we know?

Def Leppard was a metal band until they crossed over to pop... they USED metal to get popular...and when they were done they dropped the metal tag and the fans that came with it...

Not exactly. After Hysteria's massive popularity, their metal crossover routine just got stale -- they couldn't write good songs, didn't know who their main audience was, record company pressure -- until they completely lost their way. Steve Clark was a huge part of that collapse.

In the 90's everyone was shamed into thinking metal, particularly popmetal, was lame and obsolete. Those were tough time for a metal fan or a band. There were only a few metal acts that kept their focus and made good music. You can tell (and its now obvious) that Def Leppard basically convinced (read, deluded) themselves that they were never metal to avoid the stigma.

[jrnyman28]

Dokken, Scorps and Crue are not "metal" either...

Why didn't you say that in the first place? All that tells me is that your definition of "hard rock" is actually metal in the real world!

Wow, I can only wonder what Klaus would say when you tell him he's not a heavy metal band! Yikes!

And here I am thinking your definition of "metal" is "hard Rock" in the real world.
Either way, the main point is correct, that many "metal" and even "hard rock" bands became pop (or "pop metal" as you have called it...so I guess that lends creedance to your point about them being "metal", or you are just creating a term to fit your argument) during the 80's. Even Priest did it for Turbo, although not to the same extent. But I still feel that "metal" bands like Maiden stayed metal. And Def Leppard was never really in their league. Scorps are a tough call for me. Through the 70's they were not in the same "metal" league to me either (musically) but they definately were classed that way as a band.

Now we know why we disagree.

[jrnyman28]

After Hysteria's massive popularity, their metal crossover routine just got stale -- they couldn't write good songs, didn't know who their main audience was, record company pressure -- until they completely lost their way. Steve Clark was a huge part of that collapse.

After Hysteria, the band thought they needed to write another Hysteria...even though times were changing. Instead of evolving with the climate change, they tried to hold onto "what was". I am sure Record Label pressure was a big part of that. If they had written Slang after Hysteria they might have been able to continue momentum. But U.S. audiences are fickle and they don't like change. So Lep was really in a no-win situation anyway.

In the 90's everyone was shamed into thinking metal, particularly popmetal, was lame and obsolete. Those were tough time for a metal fan or a band. There were only a few metal acts that kept their focus and made good music.

Absolutely true. Even the guitar solo was taboo for a while. I always credited Metallica for at least keeping guitar on the radio. Their reputation meant radio would play their music, no matter what. Even they went through a change in sound, but it still rocked like "we" were used to.

Almost all rock bands were stuck during this time. How do you evolve while staying true to your fans and your past?
Def Leppard tried to stay true when they should have evolved. When they DID evolve (maybe it was too late) they didn't stand behind it and they returned to their "signature" sound. This is why all bands should find a way to sound a little different on every CD instead of making 'part II' of a previous CD.

You can tell (and its now obvious) that Def Leppard basically convinced (read, deluded) themselves that they were never metal to avoid the stigma.

I don't know about that. I don't believe they were ever metal...but I don't think the band has truly changed the way they reflect on their past. They just don't want to re-visit it.

This is probably why we got this covers CD. Lep could play stuff that is different from what they are "known for" and the fans will accept it because they are "influences". And it is easier to market that then it is to figuree out what direction the band want to go it. Do they want to continue their popular sound of Hysteria and possibly be labelled "nostalgia"? Do they want to try and "evolve" and possibly be labelled a sell-out?

[Cato Alumni]

Quiet Riot - metal
Twisted Sister - metal
etc. etc.

Heck, QR even had a song about it.

Basically, all these bands had an aggressive sound, heavy guitar riffs, some melody, and solos. Not to mention the attitude. That's metal. They were all in the metal magazines and went to metal festivals. I mean, come on.

By contrast, bands like Boston were never metal. Bon Jovi probably came the closest without ever crossing over. Van Halen were metal for their debut and proceeded more to hard rock.

Basically, just because there is a lot of different metal types -- british (maiden, priest), thrash, pop, etc -- doesn't mean they aren't all metal. It just seems obvious -- particularly given the band, Def Leppard, were leading the charge of the NWOBHM movement!!

[Cato Alumni]

After Hysteria, the band thought they needed to write another Hysteria...even though times were changing. Instead of evolving with the climate change, they tried to hold onto "what was". I am sure Record Label pressure was a big part of that. If they had written Slang after Hysteria they might have been able to continue momentum. But U.S. audiences are fickle and they don't like change. So Lep was really in a no-win situation anyway.

Adrenalize sounded nothing like Hysteria. No wait. It was a watered-down version of it with tired musicianship that had its balls chopped off.

Its not that they tried to recreate the past -- if only. The problem was they lost their major songwriter and couldn't write good songs anymore. Worse, they compromised their sound to please current fads.

[Defshep]

I'm gonna say that I never considered Def Leppard metal. Nor do I consider many of their fellow 80s counterparts "metal". Think about what was played on Headbangers' Ball on MTV. Were Poison, Bon Jovi, White Lion, Cinderella metal? Nope. That's what the media called them, because they had long hair, wore leather, had wailing guitar solos, and were louder than New Kids On The Block (which by the way, I believe Circus or Hit Parader or Metal Edge magazine tried to get away with convincing us NKOTB belonged in the publication! I kid you not! I remember an article claiming that if they had guitars in the group, it would sound the same! Didn't stick, thank God!) It should have been called glam-rock, because it really was a continuation of Sweet, T-Rex, Slade, etc. You even had bands like Quiet Riot doing covers from these bands! I would call Black Sabbath metal, but not necessarily most of Ozzy's solo stuff.
Def Leppard were not influenced by Black Sabbath. They were influenced by the bands they pay tribute to on YEAH! Phil has mentioned that Armageddon It was basically a T-Rex groove. While I don't necessarily agree with Def Leppard's approach-like politicians- trying to distance themselves from anything that is considered uncool at the moment, I certainly don't think they ever thought of themselves as a metal band. They let us put them in whatever category we chose to. It was that sort of musical ambiguity that brought so much success to the band.

[Defshep]

By the way, Adrenalize gets dissed alot here. But wasn't most of it co-written by Steve? Oh yeah, except for it's biggest single, Let's Get Rocked. I don't think it was their best album, but I do think it gave more of a nod to seventies glam than anything else they've ever done. So in many ways, it may have been the most defining of all their work.

[defbezerk]

Love Bites and Pour Some Sugar on Me are the two songs responsible for Def Leppard's demise...look at all the ballads after that and songs trying to imitate PSSOM.

[Defshep]

I think Def Leppard's biggest hinderance is that they want to be a people-pleasing band. That's not necessarily bad, but it could stifle their artistic creativity. They've never shied away from the fact that they write pop songs that would sound great on the radio. But with the way the internet has taken off, fragmented formats, satellite radio, I think it would really be less of a risk to release a truly rockin' album. X was a bigger risk, it was them trying to be trendy. As a melodic rock fan, I don't care about trends, obviously!

[Cato Alumni]

Def Leppard were not influenced by Black Sabbath. They were influenced by the bands they pay tribute to on YEAH! Phil has mentioned that Armageddon It was basically a T-Rex groove.

This is entirely irrelevant. A band's influences don't define what kind of music they write. So why bring it up? I mean Sugar Ray was influenced by Judas Priest.. so what?

If Leppard ceased to exist in 1987, they would go down as a heavy metal act. This is just undeniable.

[jrnyman28]

If Leppard ceased to exist in 1987, they would go down as a heavy metal act. This is just undeniable.

Maybe in 1984, but by 1987 they had already shed the "heavy" part and replaced it with 'pop' or 'hair'....

[Defshep]

By 1987, Def Leppard were mostly referred to as pop-metal, if metal at all.

[deflep_mr]

Ok....I'm loving this debate.....

We started off with ..."the impact of the loss of Steve Clarke.."

Here are the prevailing thoughts from this thread:

A. Steve Clark's loss had a huge impact on the bands fortunes
B. Stever Clark's loss had minimal impact on the bands fortunes
C. Def Leppard was never a metal band
D. Def Leppard was most definitely a metal band who led the New Wave of British Metal
E. Vivian Cambell sucks...there seems to be a consensus on this although we dont deny his guitar playing abilities
F. Adrenalize was turn for the worse
G. X was a turn for the even more worse
H. YEAH is a way for the band to detach itself from the "metal" label

If you sum all that up it leads me to one conclusion...Def Leppard has an identity crisis!!!!!!