Some Perspective on Perry's Voce & Relationship W/The Ba

[Jeremey]

I originally was going to post this in the Journey YouTube concert thread, but it was ridiculously long and wanted to just post it to its own thread. So in context of Brywool and Ehwmatt discussing Perry's voice and the change it took over the years, here's some thoughts on that:


I can tell you that I don't know of ANY singer whose voice dramatically changed over the years that didn't have a single traumatic event or series of events (usually continuing to perform after said trauma, thus doing long term damage). Singers who sing for many years that do develop vocal problems normally can quit singing for a while, have surgery, get healthy, or do whatever and get their voice back. ALL singers suffer from these sorts of problems over time. The thing is, most professional singers only tour 3 months a year or put an album out every couple of years. So 70% of the time they're off the radar dealing with their shit out of the public eye. However, if you are a singer and you suffer a specific voice injury (and most importantly if you don't get immediate treatment), much like being a ball player or athlete, you're in real danger of the serious sort of shit that will change your voice for good.

So with that in mind, I'd be willing to bet 100 dollars on what happened to Perry's voice during the Frontiers tour, and the long ranging effect it had on his vocal abilities. I'm probably pretty qualified to speculate, but nothing I say is of course fact.

The fact is, however, from the end of March 1983 until mid July 1983, in Dallas TX, Journey was performing nearly every week with MAYBE a day off in between. And the vast majority of these shows were three night stadium shows. Which meant they would perform three shows in a row, travel the next day to the next concert, play three nights in a row again. Continuously for many, many months. Sometimes they'd have a day off for travel and then do a one nighter somewhere and the next night go in for another 3 night concert.

The machine never stopped, over and over again, giving 100% every night in front of tens of thousands, waking up the next morning and wondering what in the world your voice was going to sound like that day, desperately insane not to get sick, not to get around people, not to talk, drink enough water, don't eat this, et cetera et cetera. There wasn't anything more than hours between shows. This wasn't the days of in ear monitors or all the technological advances they had in sound systems and engineering either. Despite all the millions of production, you were still a guy on a stage with a voice and a microphone, standing in front of walls of amplifiers and drums and cymbals. For someone expected to perform at the level Perry was known for, this was absolutely insane. Absolutely. Because if one thing goes wrong - If you catch a cold, if you get heartburn from something, if the temperature of your hotel room was off, you were going onstage that night vocally compromised. And it did happen. Like I said, I can only speculate, but I will tell you with 100% certainty that you WILL be vocally compromised at some point.

So what do you do? Well, from the outset, you schedule a tour with the health and welfare of your artist in mind. You don't do insane things like perform stadium shows 10 days in a row with only 2 out of 10 days off (spent traveling in less than ideal conditions). This was the unfortunate case going into Dallas in July of 1983. I had been told personally by a band member that was on that tour that Perry had "blown out a vocal cord" leading up to that run in Dallas. I have no idea what the clinical definition of "blown out" is, but I'm going to guess it was probably a hemorrhage or he could have suffered a strain or muscle injury. What happens then is, you stop singing. Period. Millions of dollars may be on the line, but the question then becomes - Well, do you get better, then go back out there, tour, make those millions of dollars, and then continue your career? Or do you have a group of people around you that say "Fuck you, you better get out there and do your job so we can get paid NOW." The only thing more disgusting than that is then bitching for years afterward about how that person can't sing anymore, and completely neglecting the hand you may have had in destroying their instrument.

And so what happened? Well, according to Herbie in an interview with our own Andrew McNeice:

"I remember with Steve Perry we had a four night sellout at the Reunion Arena in Dallas and he really was in rough, rough, rough shape and it was the one time when I had to sit down and go 'Steve', it's horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, but we would put in suspense the settlement on this, what at the time was an obscenely big gross in rock 'n roll and until we returned and played the postponed fourth date we couldn't settle because all the deals were really tightly negotiated predicated on four days.
They were extraordinary low deals but they were justified by the band playing four nights sold out in the round and all the ancillary income from parking and all would be frozen if he couldn't perform. And so, somehow he got through that performance and in those days, when that happened, the crutches hadn't been developed."

What that means in layman's terms is that the tour in Dallas was a package deal - If the deal was $1,000,000 for 3 nights (Herbie says 4 but it was a 3 night run), then if you cancel one or two of the nights to recuperate your voice, you don't get paid for the night you DO perform until you go back and make up those other 2 nights. And yeah, I'm sure the expense of having the trucks parked and the crew sitting up in hotel rooms etc was mind boggling. But to use Herbie's words back on him in another way, "Herbie, it's horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, man." This is why Journey has sold a hundred thousand tickets to those shows. Because of the magical combination that Perry's voice and the band was able to reproduce live. And if you want to kill the golden goose, then shoot him full of drugs and push him back out on stage. Because those drugs mask the very real damage that continues to unfold every time he opens his mouth. He ain't going to feel the scars forming til after you're at home smoking a cigar in your hot tub and fanning yourself with a stack of hundred dollar bills.

So that's pretty much what they did. Steve said in the GQ interview in 2008 that this was the only time he took any assistance - what he called a "B-12 shot." Well, maybe that's what they told him it was, but Steve seems like a pretty sharp guy. But I'm going to go out on a limb again and speculate - It wasn't "one shot," because there's no way anyone can physically continue performing without drugs after that without taking a break. The band had ONE NIGHT OFF after that Dallas run and then performed on 8 of the next 10 days! And the machine rolled on - Another 32 dates after that, over the course of nearly two more months. And nobody that hasn't been in that situation can know what the pressure is out there to have MILLIONS (!) of dollars on the line, a staff of hundreds depending on you, a band scowling at you every time you walk past their dressing room.

So Steve pretty much sacrificed himself for that tour. And I'm sure he suffers today because of it. Of course he went out and recorded amazing vocals on ROR (how long did they spend making that record? More than a couple years? You can record take after take after take to get perfect vocals in a studio - Especially when you're the producer). Then he went out and toured again. And the same band member told me again on the Raised on Radio tour, he "blew it out again." Again - Not sure what that means. But the tour rolled on, fueled in part by whatever drugs were available at the time to get through. And people still point out to this day how shitty Perry's voice was on that tour. What if they had scrapped the remaining dates on the Frontiers and gone back months later to make them up with a healthy Perry? It could have been done...Sure it would have been "painful" but it's only money. Would Perry still be singing to this day? Who knows. With Journey? With the dynamic in that band it's not very likely, but again, who knows. And Perry finds himself many years later after reconciling with the band, and he gets hurt again...What does the band say? "Go on tour and sing on a stool then." The Journey organization seems to have time and time again tried to force Perry into compromises for his health and reputation, and has apparently done a pretty successful job in getting the general Journey fan base to believe that Perry was an inconsiderate motherfucker who wouldn't allow the band to carry on, so they dropped him and moved on without him.

I guess my only point is that if you take all of the facts into account, the argument could be made that rather than Perry holding the band hostage at his whim, maybe the band just squeezed him over and over and over again, and finally he decided to take a stand.

This is probably too long and I doubt many will read it, but I wanted to post because I see the same arguments made time and time again about Perry's voice and what he did to the band, and I felt like some perspective was in order.

[portland]

I originally was going to post this in the Journey YouTube concert thread, but it was ridiculously long and wanted to just post it to its own thread. So in context of Brywool and Ehwmatt discussing Perry's voice and the change it took over the years, here's some thoughts on that:


I can tell you that I don't know of ANY singer whose voice dramatically changed over the years that didn't have a single traumatic event or series of events (usually continuing to perform after said trauma, thus doing long term damage). Singers who sing for many years that do develop vocal problems normally can quit singing for a while, have surgery, get healthy, or do whatever and get their voice back. ALL singers suffer from these sorts of problems over time. The thing is, most professional singers only tour 3 months a year or put an album out every couple of years. So 70% of the time they're off the radar dealing with their shit out of the public eye. However, if you are a singer and you suffer a specific voice injury (and most importantly if you don't get immediate treatment), much like being a ball player or athlete, you're in real danger of the serious sort of shit that will change your voice for good.

So with that in mind, I'd be willing to bet 100 dollars on what happened to Perry's voice during the Frontiers tour, and the long ranging effect it had on his vocal abilities. I'm probably pretty qualified to speculate, but nothing I say is of course fact.

The fact is, however, from the end of March 1983 until mid July 1983, in Dallas TX, Journey was performing nearly every week with MAYBE a day off in between. And the vast majority of these shows were three night stadium shows. Which meant they would perform three shows in a row, travel the next day to the next concert, play three nights in a row again. Continuously for many, many months. Sometimes they'd have a day off for travel and then do a one nighter somewhere and the next night go in for another 3 night concert.

The machine never stopped, over and over again, giving 100% every night in front of tens of thousands, waking up the next morning and wondering what in the world your voice was going to sound like that day, desperately insane not to get sick, not to get around people, not to talk, drink enough water, don't eat this, et cetera et cetera. There wasn't anything more than hours between shows. This wasn't the days of in ear monitors or all the technological advances they had in sound systems and engineering either. Despite all the millions of production, you were still a guy on a stage with a voice and a microphone, standing in front of walls of amplifiers and drums and cymbals. For someone expected to perform at the level Perry was known for, this was absolutely insane. Absolutely. Because if one thing goes wrong - If you catch a cold, if you get heartburn from something, if the temperature of your hotel room was off, you were going onstage that night vocally compromised. And it did happen. Like I said, I can only speculate, but I will tell you with 100% certainty that you WILL be vocally compromised at some point.

So what do you do? Well, from the outset, you schedule a tour with the health and welfare of your artist in mind. You don't do insane things like perform stadium shows 10 days in a row with only 2 out of 10 days off (spent traveling in less than ideal conditions). This was the unfortunate case going into Dallas in July of 1983. I had been told personally by a band member that was on that tour that Perry had "blown out a vocal cord" leading up to that run in Dallas. I have no idea what the clinical definition of "blown out" is, but I'm going to guess it was probably a hemorrhage or he could have suffered a strain or muscle injury. What happens then is, you stop singing. Period. Millions of dollars may be on the line, but the question then becomes - Well, do you get better, then go back out there, tour, make those millions of dollars, and then continue your career? Or do you have a group of people around you that say "Fuck you, you better get out there and do your job so we can get paid NOW." The only thing more disgusting than that is then bitching for years afterward about how that person can't sing anymore, and completely neglecting the hand you may have had in destroying their instrument.

And so what happened? Well, according to Herbie in an interview with our own Andrew McNeice:

"I remember with Steve Perry we had a four night sellout at the Reunion Arena in Dallas and he really was in rough, rough, rough shape and it was the one time when I had to sit down and go 'Steve', it's horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, but we would put in suspense the settlement on this, what at the time was an obscenely big gross in rock 'n roll and until we returned and played the postponed fourth date we couldn't settle because all the deals were really tightly negotiated predicated on four days.
They were extraordinary low deals but they were justified by the band playing four nights sold out in the round and all the ancillary income from parking and all would be frozen if he couldn't perform. And so, somehow he got through that performance and in those days, when that happened, the crutches hadn't been developed."

What that means in layman's terms is that the tour in Dallas was a package deal - If the deal was $1,000,000 for 3 nights (Herbie says 4 but it was a 3 night run), then if you cancel one or two of the nights to recuperate your voice, you don't get paid for the night you DO perform until you go back and make up those other 2 nights. And yeah, I'm sure the expense of having the trucks parked and the crew sitting up in hotel rooms etc was mind boggling. But to use Herbie's words back on him in another way, "Herbie, it's horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, man." This is why Journey has sold a hundred thousand tickets to those shows. Because of the magical combination that Perry's voice and the band was able to reproduce live. And if you want to kill the golden goose, then shoot him full of drugs and push him back out on stage. Because those drugs mask the very real damage that continues to unfold every time he opens his mouth. He ain't going to feel the scars forming til after you're at home smoking a cigar in your hot tub and fanning yourself with a stack of hundred dollar bills.

So that's pretty much what they did. Steve said in the GQ interview in 2008 that this was the only time he took any assistance - what he called a "B-12 shot." Well, maybe that's what they told him it was, but Steve seems like a pretty sharp guy. But I'm going to go out on a limb again and speculate - It wasn't "one shot," because there's no way anyone can physically continue performing without drugs after that without taking a break. The band had ONE NIGHT OFF after that Dallas run and then performed on 8 of the next 10 days! And the machine rolled on - Another 32 dates after that, over the course of nearly two more months. And nobody that hasn't been in that situation can know what the pressure is out there to have MILLIONS (!) of dollars on the line, a staff of hundreds depending on you, a band scowling at you every time you walk past their dressing room.

So Steve pretty much sacrificed himself for that tour. And I'm sure he suffers today because of it. Of course he went out and recorded amazing vocals on ROR (how long did they spend making that record? More than a couple years? You can record take after take after take to get perfect vocals in a studio - Especially when you're the producer). Then he went out and toured again. And the same band member told me again on the Raised on Radio tour, he "blew it out again." Again - Not sure what that means. But the tour rolled on, fueled in part by whatever drugs were available at the time to get through. And people still point out to this day how shitty Perry's voice was on that tour. What if they had scrapped the remaining dates on the Frontiers and gone back months later to make them up with a healthy Perry? It could have been done...Sure it would have been "painful" but it's only money. Would Perry still be singing to this day? Who knows. With Journey? With the dynamic in that band it's not very likely, but again, who knows. And Perry finds himself many years later after reconciling with the band, and he gets hurt again...What does the band say? "Go on tour and sing on a stool then." The Journey organization seems to have time and time again tried to force Perry into compromises for his health and reputation, and has apparently done a pretty successful job in getting the general Journey fan base to believe that Perry was an inconsiderate motherfucker who wouldn't allow the band to carry on, so they dropped him and moved on without him.

I guess my only point is that if you take all of the facts into account, the argument could be made that rather than Perry holding the band hostage at his whim, maybe the band just squeezed him over and over and over again, and finally he decided to take a stand.

This is probably too long and I doubt many will read it, but I wanted to post because I see the same arguments made time and time again about Perry's voice and what he did to the band, and I felt like some perspective was in order.

Good read...thank you.

[Rick]

I originally was going to post this in the Journey YouTube concert thread, but it was ridiculously long and wanted to just post it to its own thread. So in context of Brywool and Ehwmatt discussing Perry's voice and the change it took over the years, here's some thoughts on that:


I can tell you that I don't know of ANY singer whose voice dramatically changed over the years that didn't have a single traumatic event or series of events (usually continuing to perform after said trauma, thus doing long term damage). Singers who sing for many years that do develop vocal problems normally can quit singing for a while, have surgery, get healthy, or do whatever and get their voice back. ALL singers suffer from these sorts of problems over time. The thing is, most professional singers only tour 3 months a year or put an album out every couple of years. So 70% of the time they're off the radar dealing with their shit out of the public eye. However, if you are a singer and you suffer a specific voice injury (and most importantly if you don't get immediate treatment), much like being a ball player or athlete, you're in real danger of the serious sort of shit that will change your voice for good.

So with that in mind, I'd be willing to bet 100 dollars on what happened to Perry's voice during the Frontiers tour, and the long ranging effect it had on his vocal abilities. I'm probably pretty qualified to speculate, but nothing I say is of course fact.

The fact is, however, from the end of March 1983 until mid July 1983, in Dallas TX, Journey was performing nearly every week with MAYBE a day off in between. And the vast majority of these shows were three night stadium shows. Which meant they would perform three shows in a row, travel the next day to the next concert, play three nights in a row again. Continuously for many, many months. Sometimes they'd have a day off for travel and then do a one nighter somewhere and the next night go in for another 3 night concert.

The machine never stopped, over and over again, giving 100% every night in front of tens of thousands, waking up the next morning and wondering what in the world your voice was going to sound like that day, desperately insane not to get sick, not to get around people, not to talk, drink enough water, don't eat this, et cetera et cetera. There wasn't anything more than hours between shows. This wasn't the days of in ear monitors or all the technological advances they had in sound systems and engineering either. Despite all the millions of production, you were still a guy on a stage with a voice and a microphone, standing in front of walls of amplifiers and drums and cymbals. For someone expected to perform at the level Perry was known for, this was absolutely insane. Absolutely. Because if one thing goes wrong - If you catch a cold, if you get heartburn from something, if the temperature of your hotel room was off, you were going onstage that night vocally compromised. And it did happen. Like I said, I can only speculate, but I will tell you with 100% certainty that you WILL be vocally compromised at some point.

So what do you do? Well, from the outset, you schedule a tour with the health and welfare of your artist in mind. You don't do insane things like perform stadium shows 10 days in a row with only 2 out of 10 days off (spent traveling in less than ideal conditions). This was the unfortunate case going into Dallas in July of 1983. I had been told personally by a band member that was on that tour that Perry had "blown out a vocal cord" leading up to that run in Dallas. I have no idea what the clinical definition of "blown out" is, but I'm going to guess it was probably a hemorrhage or he could have suffered a strain or muscle injury. What happens then is, you stop singing. Period. Millions of dollars may be on the line, but the question then becomes - Well, do you get better, then go back out there, tour, make those millions of dollars, and then continue your career? Or do you have a group of people around you that say "Fuck you, you better get out there and do your job so we can get paid NOW." The only thing more disgusting than that is then bitching for years afterward about how that person can't sing anymore, and completely neglecting the hand you may have had in destroying their instrument.

And so what happened? Well, according to Herbie in an interview with our own Andrew McNeice:

"I remember with Steve Perry we had a four night sellout at the Reunion Arena in Dallas and he really was in rough, rough, rough shape and it was the one time when I had to sit down and go 'Steve', it's horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, but we would put in suspense the settlement on this, what at the time was an obscenely big gross in rock 'n roll and until we returned and played the postponed fourth date we couldn't settle because all the deals were really tightly negotiated predicated on four days.
They were extraordinary low deals but they were justified by the band playing four nights sold out in the round and all the ancillary income from parking and all would be frozen if he couldn't perform. And so, somehow he got through that performance and in those days, when that happened, the crutches hadn't been developed."

What that means in layman's terms is that the tour in Dallas was a package deal - If the deal was $1,000,000 for 3 nights (Herbie says 4 but it was a 3 night run), then if you cancel one or two of the nights to recuperate your voice, you don't get paid for the night you DO perform until you go back and make up those other 2 nights. And yeah, I'm sure the expense of having the trucks parked and the crew sitting up in hotel rooms etc was mind boggling. But to use Herbie's words back on him in another way, "Herbie, it's horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, man." This is why Journey has sold a hundred thousand tickets to those shows. Because of the magical combination that Perry's voice and the band was able to reproduce live. And if you want to kill the golden goose, then shoot him full of drugs and push him back out on stage. Because those drugs mask the very real damage that continues to unfold every time he opens his mouth. He ain't going to feel the scars forming til after you're at home smoking a cigar in your hot tub and fanning yourself with a stack of hundred dollar bills.

So that's pretty much what they did. Steve said in the GQ interview in 2008 that this was the only time he took any assistance - what he called a "B-12 shot." Well, maybe that's what they told him it was, but Steve seems like a pretty sharp guy. But I'm going to go out on a limb again and speculate - It wasn't "one shot," because there's no way anyone can physically continue performing without drugs after that without taking a break. The band had ONE NIGHT OFF after that Dallas run and then performed on 8 of the next 10 days! And the machine rolled on - Another 32 dates after that, over the course of nearly two more months. And nobody that hasn't been in that situation can know what the pressure is out there to have MILLIONS (!) of dollars on the line, a staff of hundreds depending on you, a band scowling at you every time you walk past their dressing room.

So Steve pretty much sacrificed himself for that tour. And I'm sure he suffers today because of it. Of course he went out and recorded amazing vocals on ROR (how long did they spend making that record? More than a couple years? You can record take after take after take to get perfect vocals in a studio - Especially when you're the producer). Then he went out and toured again. And the same band member told me again on the Raised on Radio tour, he "blew it out again." Again - Not sure what that means. But the tour rolled on, fueled in part by whatever drugs were available at the time to get through. And people still point out to this day how shitty Perry's voice was on that tour. What if they had scrapped the remaining dates on the Frontiers and gone back months later to make them up with a healthy Perry? It could have been done...Sure it would have been "painful" but it's only money. Would Perry still be singing to this day? Who knows. With Journey? With the dynamic in that band it's not very likely, but again, who knows. And Perry finds himself many years later after reconciling with the band, and he gets hurt again...What does the band say? "Go on tour and sing on a stool then." The Journey organization seems to have time and time again tried to force Perry into compromises for his health and reputation, and has apparently done a pretty successful job in getting the general Journey fan base to believe that Perry was an inconsiderate motherfucker who wouldn't allow the band to carry on, so they dropped him and moved on without him.

I guess my only point is that if you take all of the facts into account, the argument could be made that rather than Perry holding the band hostage at his whim, maybe the band just squeezed him over and over and over again, and finally he decided to take a stand.

This is probably too long and I doubt many will read it, but I wanted to post because I see the same arguments made time and time again about Perry's voice and what he did to the band, and I felt like some perspective was in order.

Thanks for taking the time to write this. It's terrible that they toured that hard then didn't stop when he got injured.

[steveo777]

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

[portland]

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

Do you have a fucking reading and comprehension problem?

[steveo777]

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

Do you have a fucking reading and comprehension problem?

What's up your nose? No need to address me like that.

[The_Noble_Cause]

J - as one of the few MR posters who was briefly a part of the Journey machine and narrowly escaped, your thoughts are invaluable. What are your thoughts on Steve Augeri? Did SA have the goods and they toured him ragged too soon? Or was he just not cut out for the Journey wrecking ball?

[Jeremey]

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

Yeah, that's a whole 'nother bag of yarn right there I'm sure, but no doubt it's a real issue for Steve seeing the demand for his voice and not being confident enough to live up to expectations (or his own demanding standards).

[portland]

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

Do you have a fucking reading and comprehension problem?

What's up your nose? No need to address me like that.

Just that Steve's vocal demise was mostly no fault of his own...he was Against the Wall.


And I love you too muah!

[tater1977]

Thanks Jeremey...

Probably would behoove Pineda ..to read this ...if he hasn't already....
& take note...

Well ....any other future lead Journey singers as well...

[Gideon]

Interesting and insightful commentary, Jeremey, even if I don't agree with some of its insinuations. The only part I think is solidly wrong was this:

The Journey organization [...] has apparently done a pretty successful job in getting the general Journey fan base to believe that Perry was an inconsiderate motherfucker who wouldn't allow the band to carry on, so they dropped him and moved on without him.

No way in hell has Journey succeeded in demonizing Perry to the general audience.

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

Do you have a fucking reading and comprehension problem?

What's up your nose? No need to address me like that.

Your mistake was including a criticism of Perry in your post. Remember, it's cool to jab, mock, taunt, tease, insult, or harass Neal and Jon and Ross and Deen and Arnel (of all people), but do NOT, under any circumstances, suggest that Steve Perry was anything less than a messianic figure and infallible singer extraordinare.

[steveo777]

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

Do you have a fucking reading and comprehension problem?

What's up your nose? No need to address me like that.

Just that Steve's vocal demise was mostly no fault of his own...he was Against the Wall.


And I love you too muah!

I don't deny that sweetie. I admitted that...I thought.

[Gideon]

Just that Steve's vocal demise was mostly no fault of his own...he was Against the Wall.

You're kidding, right?

[portland]

Hi Giddy you are predictable as always

[portland]

Just that Steve's vocal demise was mostly no fault of his own...he was Against the Wall.

You're kidding, right?

No not even a tiny bit

[eshepherd2000]

Great insight Jeremey....I understand much of what you're saying here. I know you've lived this yourself in many ways. I have an idea about it myself on a much smaller scale. For last 4 shows I just wasn't feeling well but the pressure to perform is there so you chew on cough drops and drink throat coat and you do the best you can do. And that's just not feeling well. Nothing like what you and Steve went through. If I feel pressure to play for 200 people what must steve felt?
You write the truth about knowing when to call it an say I can't do this...it's something all singers must learn. Sometimes it's better to say no I can't and heal. Great post!

[portland]

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

Do you have a fucking reading and comprehension problem?

What's up your nose? No need to address me like that.

Just that Steve's vocal demise was mostly no fault of his own...he was Against the Wall.


And I love you too muah!

I don't deny that sweetie. I admitted that...I thought.

K...Dan's not here to argue with so I figured I would practice on you.

[Gideon]

Hi Giddy you are predictable as always

Please, it wasn't too long ago that you were all chuckles when I ripped Neal a new one. Let's be honest, the only predictable one here is you. ALWAYS championing Perry, ALWAYS bashing current Journey. At least I mix it up... fact.

Just that Steve's vocal demise was mostly no fault of his own...he was Against the Wall.

You're kidding, right?

No not even a tiny bit

Right, just like Tapegate wasn't Journey's fault.
The way you Loons freely manipulate reality is as impressive as it is fucking scary.

[Jeremey]

J - as one of the few MR posters who was briefly a part of the Journey machine and narrowly escaped, your thoughts are invaluable. What are your thoughts on Steve Augeri? Did SA have the goods and they toured him ragged too soon? Or was he just not cut out for the Journey wrecking ball?

I really know very little about Mr A to be honest. He's never talked publically really about the issues he had, and although Perry has never really been specific he's made it clear in interviews the physical and emotional toll his time in Journey exacted.

I know I saw Journey for the first time on the '98 tour in Greensboro NC and Steve seemed to have a lighter tenor that was pretty open, but not as powerful as I would have hoped for Perry's successor. A few years later I saw the band on the UTR tour and Mr A was sounding much more forced, as though he had given up on the light approach of his natural voice in an effort to sound "louder" (as opposed to developing strength and support). At that time he was ducking quite a few high notes and changing up melodies. I can speculate this was from just singing "wrong" in an effort to change his voice to a more powerful chest voice that he didn't really have command of. Then I saw them on the Generations tour and he sounded light and open and hit most of the money notes as well, and I just thought "oh, they're lip syncing tonight, okay," and that was that.

[tater1977]

Kinda wondering how come "Management"...didn't know this shit about pushing vocals night after night...the after effects of it? Or was it that the green.. was more
important?

[portland]

Hi Giddy you are predictable as always

Please, it wasn't too long ago that you were all chuckles when I ripped Neal a new one. Let's be honest, the only predictable one here is you. ALWAYS championing Perry, ALWAYS bashing current Journey. At least I mix it up... fact.

Just that Steve's vocal demise was mostly no fault of his own...he was Against the Wall.

You're kidding, right?

No not even a tiny bit

Right, just like Tapegate wasn't Journey's fault.
The way you Loons freely manipulate reality is as impressive as it is fucking scary.

I am not sure what I manipulated? I just read what what was posted, I have long thought that the
sheer demands of the touring schedule along with the internal pressures of the band is what brought Perry to his knees....from what I just read from J it seems he feels the same way.

[steveo777]

J - as one of the few MR posters who was briefly a part of the Journey machine and narrowly escaped, your thoughts are invaluable. What are your thoughts on Steve Augeri? Did SA have the goods and they toured him ragged too soon? Or was he just not cut out for the Journey wrecking ball?

I really know very little about Mr A to be honest. He's never talked publically really about the issues he had, and although Perry has never really been specific he's made it clear in interviews the physical and emotional toll his time in Journey exacted.

I know I saw Journey for the first time on the '98 tour in Greensboro NC and Steve seemed to have a lighter tenor that was pretty open, but not as powerful as I would have hoped for Perry's successor. A few years later I saw the band on the UTR tour and Mr A was sounding much more forced, as though he had given up on the light approach of his natural voice in an effort to sound "louder" (as opposed to developing strength and support). At that time he was ducking quite a few high notes and changing up melodies. I can speculate this was from just singing "wrong" in an effort to change his voice to a more powerful chest voice that he didn't really have command of. Then I saw them on the Generations tour and he sounded light and open and hit most of the money notes as well, and I just thought "oh, they're lip syncing tonight, okay," and that was that.

And most fans probably took it the same way, which is why it really never made major news and was kept pretty mum within the die hard circles. From a fan's perspective they probably "heard" a pretty good show. (btw, if they were, it was still a pretty slimy, dishonest thing to do. I will never condone it.)

[Jeremey]

Interesting and insightful commentary, Jeremey, even if I don't agree with some of its insinuations. The only part I think is solidly wrong was this:

The Journey organization [...] has apparently done a pretty successful job in getting the general Journey fan base to believe that Perry was an inconsiderate motherfucker who wouldn't allow the band to carry on, so they dropped him and moved on without him.

No way in hell has Journey succeeded in demonizing Perry to the general audience.

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

Do you have a fucking reading and comprehension problem?

What's up your nose? No need to address me like that.

Your mistake was including a criticism of Perry in your post. Remember, it's cool to jab, mock, taunt, tease, insult, or harass Neal and Jon and Ross and Deen and Arnel (of all people), but do NOT, under any circumstances, suggest that Steve Perry was anything less than a messianic figure and infallible singer extraordinare.

What I meant was not the general public but the general Journey fan base meaning us kooks who would actually speculate about that sort of thing LOL. If you don't feel like a good portion of the Journey die hards don't think Perry was holding the band hostage in 96-97 we may be reading different message boards LOL. Hell I concede that Perry was a control freak and master manipulator just like the rest of them - he had to be to get where he was and survive in that band. My point was only that a lot of people DO believe Perry should have just got surgery then gone and toured on a stool or with crutches, and there is very likely a bit of a backstory that plays into that scenario that most people don't realize - that Perry was responding to a pattern of disregard by the band that led him to lose his very identity, and he pushed back this time.

[slucero]

Thanks Jeremey. Great insight from you. The fault is not on Steve for his vocal demise, as he's human, for fucks sake. I don't think anyone has a problem with him for what took it's toll. I only have a problem with the way he has been baiting people for years about a comeback that most of us realists understand will never happen.

..only as much as people have been begging him...

[Gideon]

I am not sure what I manipulated? I just read what what was posted, I have long thought that the
sheer demands of the touring schedule along with the internal pressures of the band is what brought Perry to his knees....from what I just read from J it seems he feels the same way.

Jeremey was offering an insightful commentary that was sympathetic to Steve's plight. At no point (that I saw) did he suggest or insinuate that Perry was somehow guiltless or blameless in what happened. The gist of his argument was that Perry didn't decide to run his voice into the shitter for the hell of it; that pressure from management and the band played a role in his decision to carry on recklessly.

Here are the facts: Perry, by his own admission, sought autonomy and began to adjust the "family" dynamic of the band from the moment he joined it. He (right or wrong) challenged the band's nominal leaders (Herbie, Neal & Gregg) creatively. He was a major songwriter, the band's face, and exercised a tremendous degree of control over the organization on every level.

The idea that he was somehow bullied, cowed, or raped into his predicament is utterly retarded and contradicts every single thing we know about Steve Perry who, for better or worse, was a man with vision and a formidable will.

Like Augeri said in his interview with Andrew in '08:

"(long pause) I'll tell you what - the unfortunate thing is that it comes down to the individual. I can never point a finger; you can't point a finger at anyone but yourself. So, if the schedule was grueling, then I didn't have the backbone to say, “Stop. I'm getting off the train.”"

All I see is Jeremey trying to remind people (possibly directed at me?) that there were circumstances, factors, pressures, and people involved in this beyond Steve Perry. All of which is true. But at the end of the day, it was still his choice.

Trying to separate Perry from culpability here is no different than trying to separate Neal, Jon, Ross, Deen, and Steve from the fiasco that was Tapegate. Uhhh, they had to lipsync! They had to defraud their customers!

It's bullshit and an insult to Jeremey's post.

But if I'm wrong Jeremey, please correct me.

[slucero]

I originally was going to post this in the Journey YouTube concert thread, but it was ridiculously long and wanted to just post it to its own thread. So in context of Brywool and Ehwmatt discussing Perry's voice and the change it took over the years, here's some thoughts on that:


I can tell you that I don't know of ANY singer whose voice dramatically changed over the years that didn't have a single traumatic event or series of events (usually continuing to perform after said trauma, thus doing long term damage). Singers who sing for many years that do develop vocal problems normally can quit singing for a while, have surgery, get healthy, or do whatever and get their voice back. ALL singers suffer from these sorts of problems over time. The thing is, most professional singers only tour 3 months a year or put an album out every couple of years. So 70% of the time they're off the radar dealing with their shit out of the public eye. However, if you are a singer and you suffer a specific voice injury (and most importantly if you don't get immediate treatment), much like being a ball player or athlete, you're in real danger of the serious sort of shit that will change your voice for good.

So with that in mind, I'd be willing to bet 100 dollars on what happened to Perry's voice during the Frontiers tour, and the long ranging effect it had on his vocal abilities. I'm probably pretty qualified to speculate, but nothing I say is of course fact.

The fact is, however, from the end of March 1983 until mid July 1983, in Dallas TX, Journey was performing nearly every week with MAYBE a day off in between. And the vast majority of these shows were three night stadium shows. Which meant they would perform three shows in a row, travel the next day to the next concert, play three nights in a row again. Continuously for many, many months. Sometimes they'd have a day off for travel and then do a one nighter somewhere and the next night go in for another 3 night concert.

The machine never stopped, over and over again, giving 100% every night in front of tens of thousands, waking up the next morning and wondering what in the world your voice was going to sound like that day, desperately insane not to get sick, not to get around people, not to talk, drink enough water, don't eat this, et cetera et cetera. There wasn't anything more than hours between shows. This wasn't the days of in ear monitors or all the technological advances they had in sound systems and engineering either. Despite all the millions of production, you were still a guy on a stage with a voice and a microphone, standing in front of walls of amplifiers and drums and cymbals. For someone expected to perform at the level Perry was known for, this was absolutely insane. Absolutely. Because if one thing goes wrong - If you catch a cold, if you get heartburn from something, if the temperature of your hotel room was off, you were going onstage that night vocally compromised. And it did happen. Like I said, I can only speculate, but I will tell you with 100% certainty that you WILL be vocally compromised at some point.

So what do you do? Well, from the outset, you schedule a tour with the health and welfare of your artist in mind. You don't do insane things like perform stadium shows 10 days in a row with only 2 out of 10 days off (spent traveling in less than ideal conditions). This was the unfortunate case going into Dallas in July of 1983. I had been told personally by a band member that was on that tour that Perry had "blown out a vocal cord" leading up to that run in Dallas. I have no idea what the clinical definition of "blown out" is, but I'm going to guess it was probably a hemorrhage or he could have suffered a strain or muscle injury. What happens then is, you stop singing. Period. Millions of dollars may be on the line, but the question then becomes - Well, do you get better, then go back out there, tour, make those millions of dollars, and then continue your career? Or do you have a group of people around you that say "Fuck you, you better get out there and do your job so we can get paid NOW." The only thing more disgusting than that is then bitching for years afterward about how that person can't sing anymore, and completely neglecting the hand you may have had in destroying their instrument.

And so what happened? Well, according to Herbie in an interview with our own Andrew McNeice:

"I remember with Steve Perry we had a four night sellout at the Reunion Arena in Dallas and he really was in rough, rough, rough shape and it was the one time when I had to sit down and go 'Steve', it's horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, but we would put in suspense the settlement on this, what at the time was an obscenely big gross in rock 'n roll and until we returned and played the postponed fourth date we couldn't settle because all the deals were really tightly negotiated predicated on four days.
They were extraordinary low deals but they were justified by the band playing four nights sold out in the round and all the ancillary income from parking and all would be frozen if he couldn't perform. And so, somehow he got through that performance and in those days, when that happened, the crutches hadn't been developed."

What that means in layman's terms is that the tour in Dallas was a package deal - If the deal was $1,000,000 for 3 nights (Herbie says 4 but it was a 3 night run), then if you cancel one or two of the nights to recuperate your voice, you don't get paid for the night you DO perform until you go back and make up those other 2 nights. And yeah, I'm sure the expense of having the trucks parked and the crew sitting up in hotel rooms etc was mind boggling. But to use Herbie's words back on him in another way, "Herbie, it's horrendous, this is why the pressure is what it is, man." This is why Journey has sold a hundred thousand tickets to those shows. Because of the magical combination that Perry's voice and the band was able to reproduce live. And if you want to kill the golden goose, then shoot him full of drugs and push him back out on stage. Because those drugs mask the very real damage that continues to unfold every time he opens his mouth. He ain't going to feel the scars forming til after you're at home smoking a cigar in your hot tub and fanning yourself with a stack of hundred dollar bills.

So that's pretty much what they did. Steve said in the GQ interview in 2008 that this was the only time he took any assistance - what he called a "B-12 shot." Well, maybe that's what they told him it was, but Steve seems like a pretty sharp guy. But I'm going to go out on a limb again and speculate - It wasn't "one shot," because there's no way anyone can physically continue performing without drugs after that without taking a break. The band had ONE NIGHT OFF after that Dallas run and then performed on 8 of the next 10 days! And the machine rolled on - Another 32 dates after that, over the course of nearly two more months. And nobody that hasn't been in that situation can know what the pressure is out there to have MILLIONS (!) of dollars on the line, a staff of hundreds depending on you, a band scowling at you every time you walk past their dressing room.

So Steve pretty much sacrificed himself for that tour. And I'm sure he suffers today because of it. Of course he went out and recorded amazing vocals on ROR (how long did they spend making that record? More than a couple years? You can record take after take after take to get perfect vocals in a studio - Especially when you're the producer). Then he went out and toured again. And the same band member told me again on the Raised on Radio tour, he "blew it out again." Again - Not sure what that means. But the tour rolled on, fueled in part by whatever drugs were available at the time to get through. And people still point out to this day how shitty Perry's voice was on that tour. What if they had scrapped the remaining dates on the Frontiers and gone back months later to make them up with a healthy Perry? It could have been done...Sure it would have been "painful" but it's only money. Would Perry still be singing to this day? Who knows. With Journey? With the dynamic in that band it's not very likely, but again, who knows. And Perry finds himself many years later after reconciling with the band, and he gets hurt again...What does the band say? "Go on tour and sing on a stool then." The Journey organization seems to have time and time again tried to force Perry into compromises for his health and reputation, and has apparently done a pretty successful job in getting the general Journey fan base to believe that Perry was an inconsiderate motherfucker who wouldn't allow the band to carry on, so they dropped him and moved on without him.

I guess my only point is that if you take all of the facts into account, the argument could be made that rather than Perry holding the band hostage at his whim, maybe the band just squeezed him over and over and over again, and finally he decided to take a stand.

This is probably too long and I doubt many will read it, but I wanted to post because I see the same arguments made time and time again about Perry's voice and what he did to the band, and I felt like some perspective was in order.

A-men.

[Gideon]

What I meant was not the general public but the general Journey fan base meaning us kooks who would actually speculate about that sort of thing LOL. If you don't feel like a good portion of the Journey die hards don't think Perry was holding the band hostage in 96-97 we may be reading different message boards LOL.

Ok, sure. But I still say that the majority are more sympathetic to Perry than Journey even on these boards.

Hell I concede that Perry was a control freak and master manipulator just like the rest of them - he had to be to get where he was and survive in that band. My point was only that a lot of people DO believe Perry should have just got surgery then gone and toured on a stool or with crutches, and there is very likely a bit of a backstory that plays into that scenario that most people don't realize - that Perry was responding to a pattern of disregard by the band that led him to lose his very identity, and he pushed back this time.

No, I agree with much of your main thrust. I just think some are twisting your words to suggest that Perry and his voice were completely helpless; or in other words, that your golden goose was brutally raped by the rest of the gaggle.

[Jeremey]

Great insight Jeremey....I understand much of what you're saying here. I know you've lived this yourself in many ways. I have an idea about it myself on a much smaller scale. For last 4 shows I just wasn't feeling well but the pressure to perform is there so you chew on cough drops and drink throat coat and you do the best you can do. And that's just not feeling well. Nothing like what you and Steve went through. If I feel pressure to play for 200 people what must steve felt?
You write the truth about knowing when to call it an say I can't do this...it's something all singers must learn. Sometimes it's better to say no I can't and heal. Great post!

Thanks Ernie, I've definitely been in uncomfortable situations since last July and especially since there was no way of knowing how my voice was going to react early on...stress definitely makes the muscles tighten up and clamp down, so there were definitely nights more stressful than others - ironically mostly when a club failed to promote a show and there would be a light crowd. The idea of having to sing with a damaged voice and doing more damage is pretty fucking stressful when you realize you're only doing it for 40 people because the club didn't know how to market the show. But they paid their money so you do what you got to do I guess. The best thing would have been to take the 6 months off immediately but then I wouldn't have been able to experience all of the good that has come out of it.

PS I will send your CD this week - have not been out of my office for most of last week but I will get it out tomorrow hopefully!

[slucero]

I am not sure what I manipulated? I just read what what was posted, I have long thought that the
sheer demands of the touring schedule along with the internal pressures of the band is what brought Perry to his knees....from what I just read from J it seems he feels the same way.

Jeremey was offering an insightful commentary that was sympathetic to Steve's plight. At no point (that I saw) did he suggest or insinuate that Perry was somehow guiltless or blameless in what happened. The gist of his argument was that Perry didn't decide to run his voice into the shitter for the hell of it; that pressure from management and the band played a role in his decision to carry on recklessly.

Here are the facts: Perry, by his own admission, sought autonomy and began to adjust the "family" dynamic of the band from the moment he joined it. He (right or wrong) challenged the band's nominal leaders (Herbie, Neal & Gregg) creatively. He was a major songwriter, the band's face, and exercised a tremendous degree of control over the organization on every level.

The idea that he was somehow bullied, cowed, or raped into his predicament is utterly retarded and contradicts every single thing we know about Steve Perry who, for better or worse, was a man with vision and a formidable will.

Like Augeri said in his interview with Andrew in '08:

"(long pause) I'll tell you what - the unfortunate thing is that it comes down to the individual. I can never point a finger; you can't point a finger at anyone but yourself. So, if the schedule was grueling, then I didn't have the backbone to say, “Stop. I'm getting off the train.”"

All I see is Jeremey trying to remind people (possibly directed at me?) that there were circumstances, factors, pressures, and people involved in this beyond Steve Perry. All of which is true. But at the end of the day, it was still his choice.

Trying to separate Perry from culpability here is no different than trying to separate Neal, Jon, Ross, Deen, and Steve from the fiasco that was Tapegate. Uhhh, they had to lipsync! They had to defraud their customers!

It's bullshit and an insult to Jeremey's post.

But if I'm wrong Jeremey, please correct me.

Its all speculation... until the autobiographies come out...

[portland]

Um ok....carry on...sorry to insult J's post.




I know that you are the sane one here I am only a lowly Loon.