Arnel Pineda snubbed? Not Really.

[tater1977]

Arnel Pineda snubbed? Not Really.

http://www.notinhalloffame.com/home/new ... not-really

Kirk Buchner,

Is this really a controversy?

Those of you following the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame this year know that for the first time, Journey was nominated for the Hall. Going against past tradition, the Cleveland bases institution has announced which members of nominated bands would receive induction. Current Journey singer, Arnel Pineda is not listed on the ballot, which has made keyboardist, Jonathan Cain a little upset.

“There is no Journey without Arnel right now. He certainly has earned his stripes. He's been with us longer than any lead singer has consecutively stayed in the band. He's given us 10 years straight, not running off or doing this, doing that, just being The Guy. So that's worth something,"

While Pineda has been with them a long time and unquestionably has a voice that can match original singer, Steve Perry, it was Perry who originally sang and recorded the hits…which is what they still play predominantly today.

At present, Journey is doing very well with the fan vote, often a precursor for future induction. Should that happen could we see a temporary reunion with Perry?

Could be!

[Memorex]

Arnel is doing a lot for Journey - A LOT. But as good as a guy as he seems, he is not doing anything for music or the furthering of music or affecting music for future generations. He should be getting award after award in his home country for his rise to stardom and what he has done in that sense. But in America, his time with Journey and his accomplishments with Journey speak zero to what the Hall of Fame is supposed to represent. The Hall of Fame being a joke aside.

The band members being inducted (if they are in fact inducted) worked hard, with their musical gifts to shape an entire genre of music, some of which only now is being recognized for it's value. You can look at each of those guys and completely understand their part in it all. The playing, the writing, the style, etc. That is what is being inducted. Not the hard work of someone that is keeping the band alive on the road. That further's Journey's goals, and maybe their fan's goals, but not the world of music.

So I give all due respect to Arnel and even Augeri, but enough with the bullshit that they are being slighted somehow. They have done nothing Hall of Fame worthy.

However, in their defense, neither have a lot of others that have already been inducted.

[STORY_TELLER]

Arnel is doing a lot for Journey - A LOT. But as good as a guy as he seems, he is not doing anything for music or the furthering of music or affecting music for future generations. He should be getting award after award in his home country for his rise to stardom and what he has done in that sense. But in America, his time with Journey and his accomplishments with Journey speak zero to what the Hall of Fame is supposed to represent. The Hall of Fame being a joke aside.

The band members being inducted (if they are in fact inducted) worked hard, with their musical gifts to shape an entire genre of music, some of which only now is being recognized for it's value. You can look at each of those guys and completely understand their part in it all. The playing, the writing, the style, etc. That is what is being inducted. Not the hard work of someone that is keeping the band alive on the road. That further's Journey's goals, and maybe their fan's goals, but not the world of music.

So I give all due respect to Arnel and even Augeri, but enough with the bullshit that they are being slighted somehow. They have done nothing Hall of Fame worthy.

However, in their defense, neither have a lot of others that have already been inducted.

I agree completely. Well said.

[Pacfanweb]

There are a lot of singers that can sing Perry's material out there.

Arnel and Augeri just happened to sing it with Journey.

But neither of them made any HOF-worthy material with Journey.

All they did was basically what Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer have done for KISS.....get plugged into the spot and keep the band going. (really you could say this about many replacement musicians that got picked up by a classic act later in their careers)

And while that's significant to the band.....it's not HOF-worthy.


Now if one of them had done something like Sammy Hagar did with Van Halen, different story. But they didn't.

[scarab]

the real snub is George Tickner, writing 3/7 including sole credits on Topaz on the first CD and 2 songs on LITF.
I wouldnt call him a legacy player but he has light years being inducted over Arnel.
I am just very happy Ansley is on there, great drumming!

[tj]

The RORHOF is a joke. When you look at the list of bands and individuals who are in and who aren't, that says enough right there. Neal is in the Oklahoma Music HOF. So what?

Being in any HOF doesn't add to or diminish in any way the contributions to music in our culture that individuals have made over the years. Neal isn't any less talented and his contributions are no less important because he isn't in the RORHOF. The star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame doesn't add to or change the musical legacy. Perhaps it is interesting, but really not important in the scheme of things. The band isn't going to make any more or less music or money because of it. The money that they have made and the music that they have made won't change because of it.

[tj]

I have been thinking about this some more. For a while, I thought that it should be the band themselves who decides which members get in and who doesn"t. I mean, who knows better than the guys/girls who made the music which people were the key contributors to the success of the band. Then, I thought some more about how that would work. Does the current lineup decide which former members get to be in? Do the only the actual "members", as in owners of the band, decide?

If so, what about the personality issues. For example, who in the Doobie Brothers decides which guys from the couple of dozen who have played with them over 40+ years get included. Obvious choices there to me for inclusion are Tom Johnston, Pat Simmons and Michael McDonald. But what about John McFee, Jeff Skunk Baxter, and others?

Another example is the Eagles. According to Don Felder, he, Don Henley and Glenn Frey were the "owners" of the business that was the Eagles at the time of his firing. Randy Meisner and Bernie Leadon had given up their shares when they left the band. For all of their "membership", Joe Walsh and Timothy B. Schmidt were just hired players, but both of those guys were inducted with the other five. And given how Felder was kicked out of the band 15 years or so ago, I doubt that Henley and Frey would have offered to let him be inducted if he hadn't been an owner of the Eagles Corporation.

Do the fans decide which member? Media decide? I don't know what the answer is, but the current process leaves a lot to be desired it seems.

[FamilyMan]

Arnel would be the first one to agree he doesn't belong in the HOF. On a shoot once, I had my own album cover of Escape and asked the band to autograph it. Arnel refused - saying he didn't deserve to have the honor of signing it. It wasn't his. Neither is this. He gets it. Personally, I always thought Augeri should have sat out the Hollywood Walk of Fame ceremony - once Perry showed up.

[DracIsBack]

The same controversy happened when Chicago was inducted last year. There was a big movement to get longtime members Bill Champlin, Jason Scheff, Keith Howland and Tris Imboden inducted.

Champlin and Scheff I could kinda get because they themselves had hits with the band and hit albums (same case could be made for Laudir De Oliveria and Donnie Dacus really) but Imboden and Howland had me scratching my head. Terrific musicians, absolutely. Kept the band going live for a long time, sure.

But the hall of fame criteria is simple:

"Artists—a group encompassing performers, composers and/or musicians—become eligible for induction [url]25 years after the release of their first record[/url]. Besides demonstrating unquestionable musical excellence and talent, [url]inductees will have had a significant impact on the development, evolution and preservation of rock & roll.[/url]"


As painful as it is, Arnel, Tris, and Keith don't meet the criteria. Arnel has only been in the band for 10 years. And while his service is admirable, albums that no one bought and playing oldies concerts covering songs that someone else made famous in the first place don't get you into the hall. I know it sucks if you're an Arnel fan (and I am), but that's the reality.

I know, someone's going to tell me how many copies "Revelation" sold, but let's get real ... it was a sold with a greatest hits album and a greatest hits live DVD where Arnel sang songs Steve Perry made famous - for a super cheap price. Without them? Likely would have met the fate of Eclipse or Generations or Arrival.

[DracIsBack]

Do the fans decide which member? Media decide? I don't know what the answer is, but the current process leaves a lot to be desired it seems.

The Hall decides the members that get inducted. The band members decide who performs.

[STORY_TELLER]

Arnel would be the first one to agree he doesn't belong in the HOF. On a shoot once, I had my own album cover of Escape and asked the band to autograph it. Arnel refused - saying he didn't deserve to have the honor of signing it. It wasn't his. Neither is this. He gets it. Personally, I always thought Augeri should have sat out the Hollywood Walk of Fame ceremony - once Perry showed up.

Yup.

To your point, TJ:
The HOF has it right because the intent of the award is to recognize artists who's original works had an impact on the public and made musical history. They aren't being awarded for continuing to tour their hits from their heydays, nor should they. The works themselves (the studio recordings heard on the radio), not the live performances of the works.

So to that end, the band members who were involved in originating the recordings that made history should be honored, not the replacement players who are hired to continue to tour songs they had no hand in creating.

[tj]

Arnel would be the first one to agree he doesn't belong in the HOF. On a shoot once, I had my own album cover of Escape and asked the band to autograph it. Arnel refused - saying he didn't deserve to have the honor of signing it. It wasn't his. Neither is this. He gets it. Personally, I always thought Augeri should have sat out the Hollywood Walk of Fame ceremony - once Perry showed up.

Yup.

To your point, TJ:
The HOF has it right because the intent of the award is to recognize artists who's original works had an impact on the public and made musical history. They aren't being awarded for continuing to tour their hits from their heydays, nor should they. The works themselves (the studio recordings heard on the radio), not the live performances of the works.

So to that end, the band members who were involved in originating the recordings that made history should be honored, not the replacement players who are hired to continue to tour songs they had no hand in creating.

I see your point. So, what about a band like the Doobies? It will be interesting to see who gets in with them. A lot of different players on the albums over the years. I haven't researched it in detail, but it seems like almost every album had a different lineup. Perhaps not, but they sure have had a lot of guys involved.

[STORY_TELLER]

I see your point. So, what about a band like the Doobies? It will be interesting to see who gets in with them. A lot of different players on the albums over the years. I haven't researched it in detail, but it seems like almost every album had a different lineup. Perhaps not, but they sure have had a lot of guys involved.

That's a good question. Basically you go based off who played on the albums that had the impact and made their musical history. Feathers would be ruffled, no question, but it is a legitimate basis to follow.

I don't know how it would work if you have a band that changed their lineup every other album and had hits off all those albums. Talk about a conundrum.

Don't see how you can make everyone happy for something like this. Look, Neal had to eat it on the Santana induction, but he himself said, when they were doing the Madison Square Garden show, he was happy to sit back and watch the band start off on stage without him because those guys were the ones who made history at woodstock. He wanted to see that reunion himself. Didn't include himself in that era because he wasn't part of it. Kind of applies to the Arnel situation I think.

[tj]

That's a good question. Basically you go based off who played on the albums that had the impact and made their musical history. Feathers would be ruffled, no question, but it is a legitimate basis to follow.

I don't know how it would work if you have a band that changed their lineup every other album and had hits off all those albums. Talk about a conundrum.

Don't see how you can make everyone happy for something like this. Look, Neal had to eat it on the Santana induction, but he himself said, when they were doing the Madison Square Garden show, he was happy to sit back and watch the band start off on stage without him because those guys were the ones who made history at woodstock. He wanted to see that reunion himself. Didn't include himself in that era because he wasn't part of it. Kind of applies to the Arnel situation I think.

I looked back at their first 9 albums (their most popular period until 1980). Here are the listed personnel - from Wikipedia

Tom Johnston - 6 albums
Pat Simmons - 9 albums
John Hartman - 8 albums
Dave Shogren - 1 album (first one)
Tiran Porter - 8 albums
Micahael Hossack - 2 albums
Skunk Baxter - 5 albums
Keith Knudsen - 5 albums
Michael McDonald - 4 albums
John McFee - 1 album
Cornelius Bumpus - 1 album
Chester McCracken - 1 album

Since 1980, they have put out 5 studio albums (not including the 2014 Southbound collaboration with Country singers). I didn't include those members here because the albums are not from their heyday.

Albums 2 and 3, then 7 and 8 had the same players from one album to the next. Every other one had a different combination of these guys. Some of the guys were listed as players, but not members on different albums as well.

[STORY_TELLER]

I looked back at their first 9 albums (their most popular period until 1980). Here are the listed personnel - from Wikipedia

Tom Johnston - 6 albums
Pat Simmons - 9 albums
John Hartman - 8 albums
Dave Shogren - 1 album (first one)
Tiran Porter - 8 albums
Micahael Hossack - 2 albums
Skunk Baxter - 5 albums
Keith Knudsen - 5 albums
Michael McDonald - 4 albums
John McFee - 1 album
Cornelius Bumpus - 1 album
Chester McCracken - 1 album

Since 1980, they have put out 5 studio albums (not including the 2014 Southbound collaboration with Country singers). I didn't include those members here because the albums are not from their heyday.

Albums 2 and 3, then 7 and 8 had the same players from one album to the next. Every other one had a different combination of these guys. Some of the guys were listed as players, but not members on different albums as well.

Wow. Well, that is a unique situation. Certainly not the norm.

I'm admittedly thin on my knowledge of the Doobies, so I don't know where their prominence began and when they fell off the map, but I think you really have to go based on the recording period where they were culturally significant in music history. All the players who were on the albums in their cultural heyday deserve to be included. If all those guys are part of that heyday, then yeah, they deserve a spot on that stage.

Glad I don't have to be the one deciding this stuff.

[JourneyHard]

In defense of Arnel, remember back in 2008. He was really getting a lot of people to go to Journey concerts that probably otherwise wouldn't go. Just sayin'

[STORY_TELLER]

In defense of Arnel, remember back in 2008. He was really getting a lot of people to go to Journey concerts that probably otherwise wouldn't go. Just sayin'

That's fine, and that's great for Journey's bank account. More power to them. I take nothing away from what Arnel has done for them on tour. I applaud their efforts without hesitation, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the HOF.

If Journey completely disbanded after TBF, they would still be eligible for inclusion in the HOF with the same players who have been chosen to be inducted. Deen, Augeri, Arnel, JSS, have nothing to do with this equation.

[DracIsBack]

In defense of Arnel, remember back in 2008. He was really getting a lot of people to go to Journey concerts that probably otherwise wouldn't go. Just sayin'

And he does deserve credit.

But people get into the hall of fame for music they created which made an impact.

Not for playing "oldies" that someone else brought to life decades ago that made an impact. I know it sucks, but honestly ... I'm surprised this is even a discussion.

[Memorex]

In defense of Arnel, remember back in 2008. He was really getting a lot of people to go to Journey concerts that probably otherwise wouldn't go. Just sayin'

And he does deserve credit.

But people get into the hall of fame for music they created which made an impact.

Not for playing "oldies" that someone else brought to life decades ago that made an impact. I know it sucks, but honestly ... I'm surprised this is even a discussion.

As I said below, what he did benefited Journey. What Steve and the gang did shaped music.

[STORY_TELLER]

In defense of Arnel, remember back in 2008. He was really getting a lot of people to go to Journey concerts that probably otherwise wouldn't go. Just sayin'

And he does deserve credit.

But people get into the hall of fame for music they created which made an impact.

Not for playing "oldies" that someone else brought to life decades ago that made an impact. I know it sucks, but honestly ... I'm surprised this is even a discussion.

As I said below, what he did benefited Journey. What Steve and the gang did shaped music.

Succinctly put Memorex. That's the core of the matter in a nutshell.