The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

[Toph]

The myth that continues to be perpetuated by the band calling themselves Styx is that DDY went all "soft" following Pieces of Eight. The fact of the matter is that Tommy Shaw went just as soft (if not softer) than DDY starting with Cornerstone. Let's look at the songwriting credits for the songs from Cornerstone - Kilroy. I have 5 categories: Rock, Pop, Bubble-Gum Pop (defined is over the top in terms of gayness/Broadway/Tech sounding), Ballads/Folk ballads, Progressive. Compare Tommy and DDY on each album with song writing credits - (dual songwriting get a 1/2)


Cornerstone:
DDY - Rock 1/2 (BT), Pop 1 1/2 (L/WM), Bubble Gum Pop 0, Ballad/Folk ballad 2 (B/FT), Prog 0
TS - Rock 1/2(BT), Pop 1/2 (L), Bubble Gum Pop 1(NSN), Ballad/Folk ballad 1 (BOR), Prog 1 (LITM)

Paradise Theatre
DDY - Rock 5/6 (1/3 - RTP, 1/2 SB), Pop 2 (NEGAP, LP), BGP 0, Ballad/Folk Ballad 1 (BOT), Prog 0
TS - Rock 1/3 (RTP), Pop 1 (TMTOMH), Bubble Gum Pop 1 (SC), Ballad 0, Prog

Kilroy -
DDY - Rock 0, Pop 1 (HT), Bubble Gum Pop 1 (Roboto), Ballad 1 (DLIE), Prog 0
TS - Rock 0, Pop 1 (CW), BGP 0, Ballad/Folk ballad (JGTTN, HWBHB), Prog 0

Totals
DDY - Rock 1 1/3, Pop 4 1/2, Bubble Gum Pop 1, Ballad/Folk B 4, Prog 0
TS - Rock 5/6, Pop 2 1/2, Bubble Gum Pop 2, Ballad/Folk Ballad 3, Prog 1

So, DDY has 1/2 more rock credit and 2 more pop credits and also has 1 FEWER Bubble Gum pop song (if you consider Roboto 'bubble gum pop') and just one more ballad.

So, let's stop with all this "Tommy wanted to rock' bullshit. Its complete nonsense.

[StyxGuy]

But dominating Dennis DeYoung MADE him do it!

[masque]

topher......come on man. I get it, you really like to get everyone riled up with your dogmatic statements and positions. It's fun for you.

but in reality, DDY himself stated that after going to England after POE he felt that their style was dead and they needed to change.

so........if DDY was the "leader" that they all agreed he was at the time, then no doubt he got good ole drug rattled country boy TS to go along with his "master plan". i'm sure DDY convinced everyone it was the right move.

so I am sure that TS's writing reflected what DDY had convinced him was in their best interest at least to some degree.

Lest us also not forget that in one of the interviews recently posted by styxguy that TS himself said that by the end of the POE run that they ALL realized how lucrative it was to each member to have "hit songs". TS even admits two things; 1, that he felt DDY was probably a little affected by TS's success and earnings during the POE run and that 2, TS himself saw the influx of money from having hits so when CS came around I'm sure he and DDY both were writing "to have a hit" as much as they were writing for the hell of it.

I think TS also hit the nail on the head in that nearly all bands see their dynamic shift in mostly negatives ways once real money starts rolling in......apparently, styx was not immune to that.

lastly, come on man, seriously, now let's get real for a minute here.....pretend all the people on this board that piss you off arent reading this, it's just me and you talking over a cold beer..........you truly cannot honestly believe that "never say never" and "boat on the river" are the same "kind" of songs as "babe" and "first time" right? you just make those claims to stir the shit right? because those songs are daylight and dark different even comparing the two to the other two. I'm not arguing which is better or which are better written etc.......I'm just saying they arent the same type of song......so to lump them into similar categories is a way oversimplification to my ears.

[Cassie May]

Actually, if y'all remember your Styx history, BOTR was on CS only because DDY insisted. The record execs didn't want it on the album. Further, TS didn't even write it for the album. I read in an interview long ago that TS bought his first mandolin in 78 and, in teaching himself how to play, came up with this song. DDY heard it, loved it, added his accordion, and put it on the album.

[Boomchild]

Lest us also not forget that in one of the interviews recently posted by styxguy that TS himself said that by the end of the POE run that they ALL realized how lucrative it was to each member to have "hit songs". TS even admits two things; 1, that he felt DDY was probably a little affected by TS's success and earnings during the POE run and that 2, TS himself saw the influx of money from having hits so when CS came around I'm sure he and DDY both were writing "to have a hit" as much as they were writing for the hell of it.

I'm not so sure this is accurate. I think even by this time DDY was personally profiting from the band's success more then most of the others. Also, DDY has talked at length that he never really wanted to be a solo artist and always wanted to be in a band. So I think DDY did not have a problem with TS seeing his own success. It seems very apparent that first and foremost DDY wanted the band to be successful.

I think TS also hit the nail on the head in that nearly all bands see their dynamic shift in mostly negatives ways once real money starts rolling in......apparently, styx was not immune to that.

It's seems artists\bands have this thing about their "musical integrity". As they gain more and more commercial success they sometimes find out that this "musical integrity" no longer fits with what is hot in the current "music scene". Basically record companies want music that will sell records and listeners want what they like to hear. Sometimes it is not what the artist\band had envisioned it to be.

[StyxGuy]

Actually, if y'all remember your Styx history, BOTR was on CS only because DDY insisted. The record execs didn't want it on the album. Further, TS didn't even write it for the album. I read in an interview long ago that TS bought his first mandolin in 78 and, in teaching himself how to play, came up with this song. DDY heard it, loved it, added his accordion, and put it on the album.

To rebuff your claim;

http://smashinginterviews.com/interview ... he-founded

Dennis DeYoung: Well, there’s an interesting story behind “Boat on a River.” When we were making the “Cornerstone” album, which I always look at as the bridge album in our career, I thought it was time for us to get away from hard rock, progressive rock, whatever you want to call it. I thought it had run its course.

We had made 8 albums like that. I felt that the music business was changing in such a dramatic way that it would be important for us, in order to survive, to make a switch so that’s why “Cornerstone,” as an album, is more organic. It uses acoustic instruments, less synthesizers, less hard rock pretention as the story goes.

Tommy had written a song called “Never Say Never” that we had demoed several times. I had told hi to bring in all of his ideas so I could listen to them. He brought me a tape and said that this song was not ready for STYX. That song was “Boat on a River.” It was an acoustic song … he played an acoustic guitar. I listened to it and thought, “Wow, why not? It’s a great song.”

There were a couple of people against it, but I decided “to hell with them.” Tommy would sing it and I wanted to keep it very organic. That’s when the accordion popped out. Originally, I’m an accordionist. I started at 7 playing the accordion. That really is the instrument I learned first.

[masque]

Lest us also not forget that in one of the interviews recently posted by styxguy that TS himself said that by the end of the POE run that they ALL realized how lucrative it was to each member to have "hit songs". TS even admits two things; 1, that he felt DDY was probably a little affected by TS's success and earnings during the POE run and that 2, TS himself saw the influx of money from having hits so when CS came around I'm sure he and DDY both were writing "to have a hit" as much as they were writing for the hell of it.

I'm not so sure this is accurate. I think even by this time DDY was personally profiting from the band's success more then most of the others. Also, DDY has talked at length that he never really wanted to be a solo artist and always wanted to be in a band. So I think DDY did not have a problem with TS seeing his own success. It seems very apparent that first and foremost DDY wanted the band to be successful.

I think TS also hit the nail on the head in that nearly all bands see their dynamic shift in mostly negatives ways once real money starts rolling in......apparently, styx was not immune to that.

It's seems artists\bands have this thing about their "musical integrity". As they gain more and more commercial success they sometimes find out that this "musical integrity" no longer fits with what is hot in the current "music scene". Basically record companies want music that will sell records and listeners want what they like to hear. Sometimes it is not what the artist\band had envisioned it to be.

here is what TS said from the interview I extrapolated from.....what is your take from what he is saying if you disagree somewhat with how I read it?


“It was the end of our innocence,” laments Tommy. “We were all drinking from the same cup, and sharing the same musical thoughts. It was also the first time that things shifted a little bit. Up until then I had been the new guy, but Blue Collar Man and Renegade had emerged as big radio rock tracks and I was getting a lot of attention. It was an adjustment for everybody, not least of all for me.

“Money started coming in, and that emphasised the awareness that song writing produced different levels of income, and that starts to whittle away at a band. These were golden days, when everybody was pulling just for the sake of the music. After that, letting other people work on your songs started to evaporate. I used to love collaborating. Y’know, injecting a middle eight or a guitar solo – little flavour changes to get you away from the main thrust, so when you get back to the song it sounds interesting. If I were a fan I’d notice it. You’ve got to look at it as an exploration – you start seeing the culture change, and things become different.”


Pieces Of Eight sold three million copies but it also signalled the end of an era. Sure, the band would go on to have bigger hits and achieve even more album sales. But the fact remains that this was a record that would never be topped stylistically. Indeed, the band’s next move would be to record Dennis DeYoung’s sentimental Babe, a song that was never even meant to be a Styx track, but propelled them into a new stratosphere of success.

“I think that the fact that my songs were successful had a huge influence,” admits Tommy. “Up to that point it had been more ‘the Dennis show’, with JY covering the rock end of it. Then suddenly this little shit from Alabama steps in there and all this is happening. I was still young and naïve, plus it was kind embarrassing for me to be getting all that attention. I liked it but I could see it was making things uncomfortable.”

[Boomchild]

here is what TS said from the interview I extrapolated from.....what is your take from what he is saying if you disagree somewhat with how I read it?


“It was the end of our innocence,” laments Tommy. “We were all drinking from the same cup, and sharing the same musical thoughts. It was also the first time that things shifted a little bit. Up until then I had been the new guy, but Blue Collar Man and Renegade had emerged as big radio rock tracks and I was getting a lot of attention. It was an adjustment for everybody, not least of all for me.

“Money started coming in, and that emphasised the awareness that song writing produced different levels of income, and that starts to whittle away at a band. These were golden days, when everybody was pulling just for the sake of the music. After that, letting other people work on your songs started to evaporate. I used to love collaborating. Y’know, injecting a middle eight or a guitar solo – little flavour changes to get you away from the main thrust, so when you get back to the song it sounds interesting. If I were a fan I’d notice it. You’ve got to look at it as an exploration – you start seeing the culture change, and things become different.”


Pieces Of Eight sold three million copies but it also signalled the end of an era. Sure, the band would go on to have bigger hits and achieve even more album sales. But the fact remains that this was a record that would never be topped stylistically. Indeed, the band’s next move would be to record Dennis DeYoung’s sentimental Babe, a song that was never even meant to be a Styx track, but propelled them into a new stratosphere of success.

“I think that the fact that my songs were successful had a huge influence,” admits Tommy. “Up to that point it had been more ‘the Dennis show’, with JY covering the rock end of it. Then suddenly this little shit from Alabama steps in there and all this is happening. I was still young and naïve, plus it was kind embarrassing for me to be getting all that attention. I liked it but I could see it was making things uncomfortable.”

What I take from it is that TS has his own perspective on things and situations. The other thing is what is discussed above doesn't seem to jive with what else we know. For example both TS and DDY have talked about how DDY always encouraged TS to make his material better. DDY provided feedback, encouragement and suggestions to him. Also, it is well known that DDY always wanted to give the newcomer plenty of exposure. He did so with TS as well as Glen when he joined the group. The one thing that never seems to be taken into account is TS' drug use. It is highly likely that effected TS' perspective on things at the time and may also effect his recollection on things.

[StyxGuy]

here is what TS said from the interview I extrapolated from.....what is your take from what he is saying if you disagree somewhat with how I read it?


“It was the end of our innocence,” laments Tommy. “We were all drinking from the same cup, and sharing the same musical thoughts. It was also the first time that things shifted a little bit. Up until then I had been the new guy, but Blue Collar Man and Renegade had emerged as big radio rock tracks and I was getting a lot of attention. It was an adjustment for everybody, not least of all for me.

“Money started coming in, and that emphasised the awareness that song writing produced different levels of income, and that starts to whittle away at a band. These were golden days, when everybody was pulling just for the sake of the music. After that, letting other people work on your songs started to evaporate. I used to love collaborating. Y’know, injecting a middle eight or a guitar solo – little flavour changes to get you away from the main thrust, so when you get back to the song it sounds interesting. If I were a fan I’d notice it. You’ve got to look at it as an exploration – you start seeing the culture change, and things become different.”


Pieces Of Eight sold three million copies but it also signalled the end of an era. Sure, the band would go on to have bigger hits and achieve even more album sales. But the fact remains that this was a record that would never be topped stylistically. Indeed, the band’s next move would be to record Dennis DeYoung’s sentimental Babe, a song that was never even meant to be a Styx track, but propelled them into a new stratosphere of success.

“I think that the fact that my songs were successful had a huge influence,” admits Tommy. “Up to that point it had been more ‘the Dennis show’, with JY covering the rock end of it. Then suddenly this little shit from Alabama steps in there and all this is happening. I was still young and naïve, plus it was kind embarrassing for me to be getting all that attention. I liked it but I could see it was making things uncomfortable.”

What I take from it is that TS has his own perspective on things and situations. The other thing is what is discussed above doesn't seem to jive with what else we know. For example both TS and DDY have talked about how DDY always encouraged TS to make his material better. DDY provided feedback, encouragement and suggestions to him. Also, it is well known that DDY always wanted to give the newcomer plenty of exposure. He did so with TS as well as Glen when he joined the group. The one thing that never seems to be taken into account is TS' drug use. It is highly likely that effected TS' perspective on things at the time and may also effect his recollection on things.

Remember when Dennis showed up to one of Tommy's in store appearances for his 7 Deadly Zens album in 1998? I think it was summer, so before they went to do BNW.

I seem to recall Tommy and JY both stating that the 96/97 reunion tours, and then recording BNW were terrible experiences, showing them that Dennis hadn't changed and was still controlling and upsetting to them...

Tommy seems pretty happy and comfortable with Dennis here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5G8bDVujS8

[masque]

here is what TS said from the interview I extrapolated from.....what is your take from what he is saying if you disagree somewhat with how I read it?


“It was the end of our innocence,” laments Tommy. “We were all drinking from the same cup, and sharing the same musical thoughts. It was also the first time that things shifted a little bit. Up until then I had been the new guy, but Blue Collar Man and Renegade had emerged as big radio rock tracks and I was getting a lot of attention. It was an adjustment for everybody, not least of all for me.

“Money started coming in, and that emphasised the awareness that song writing produced different levels of income, and that starts to whittle away at a band. These were golden days, when everybody was pulling just for the sake of the music. After that, letting other people work on your songs started to evaporate. I used to love collaborating. Y’know, injecting a middle eight or a guitar solo – little flavour changes to get you away from the main thrust, so when you get back to the song it sounds interesting. If I were a fan I’d notice it. You’ve got to look at it as an exploration – you start seeing the culture change, and things become different.”


Pieces Of Eight sold three million copies but it also signalled the end of an era. Sure, the band would go on to have bigger hits and achieve even more album sales. But the fact remains that this was a record that would never be topped stylistically. Indeed, the band’s next move would be to record Dennis DeYoung’s sentimental Babe, a song that was never even meant to be a Styx track, but propelled them into a new stratosphere of success.

“I think that the fact that my songs were successful had a huge influence,” admits Tommy. “Up to that point it had been more ‘the Dennis show’, with JY covering the rock end of it. Then suddenly this little shit from Alabama steps in there and all this is happening. I was still young and naïve, plus it was kind embarrassing for me to be getting all that attention. I liked it but I could see it was making things uncomfortable.”

What I take from it is that TS has his own perspective on things and situations. The other thing is what is discussed above doesn't seem to jive with what else we know. For example both TS and DDY have talked about how DDY always encouraged TS to make his material better. DDY provided feedback, encouragement and suggestions to him. Also, it is well known that DDY always wanted to give the newcomer plenty of exposure. He did so with TS as well as Glen when he joined the group. The one thing that never seems to be taken into account is TS' drug use. It is highly likely that effected TS' perspective on things at the time and may also effect his recollection on things.

but isn't life one big "perspective"??? isn't the the old saying there are 3 sides to every story, my side, your side and the truth? I dont for one second believe that TS's perspective is any less valid than DDY's perspective of the same events. Therefore, I put alot of weight into what they both say and then try to land somewhere in the middle of what they all say, because I'm betting that the middle ground is probably the most truthful of all.

[masque]

here is what TS said from the interview I extrapolated from.....what is your take from what he is saying if you disagree somewhat with how I read it?


“It was the end of our innocence,” laments Tommy. “We were all drinking from the same cup, and sharing the same musical thoughts. It was also the first time that things shifted a little bit. Up until then I had been the new guy, but Blue Collar Man and Renegade had emerged as big radio rock tracks and I was getting a lot of attention. It was an adjustment for everybody, not least of all for me.

“Money started coming in, and that emphasised the awareness that song writing produced different levels of income, and that starts to whittle away at a band. These were golden days, when everybody was pulling just for the sake of the music. After that, letting other people work on your songs started to evaporate. I used to love collaborating. Y’know, injecting a middle eight or a guitar solo – little flavour changes to get you away from the main thrust, so when you get back to the song it sounds interesting. If I were a fan I’d notice it. You’ve got to look at it as an exploration – you start seeing the culture change, and things become different.”


Pieces Of Eight sold three million copies but it also signalled the end of an era. Sure, the band would go on to have bigger hits and achieve even more album sales. But the fact remains that this was a record that would never be topped stylistically. Indeed, the band’s next move would be to record Dennis DeYoung’s sentimental Babe, a song that was never even meant to be a Styx track, but propelled them into a new stratosphere of success.

“I think that the fact that my songs were successful had a huge influence,” admits Tommy. “Up to that point it had been more ‘the Dennis show’, with JY covering the rock end of it. Then suddenly this little shit from Alabama steps in there and all this is happening. I was still young and naïve, plus it was kind embarrassing for me to be getting all that attention. I liked it but I could see it was making things uncomfortable.”

What I take from it is that TS has his own perspective on things and situations. The other thing is what is discussed above doesn't seem to jive with what else we know. For example both TS and DDY have talked about how DDY always encouraged TS to make his material better. DDY provided feedback, encouragement and suggestions to him. Also, it is well known that DDY always wanted to give the newcomer plenty of exposure. He did so with TS as well as Glen when he joined the group. The one thing that never seems to be taken into account is TS' drug use. It is highly likely that effected TS' perspective on things at the time and may also effect his recollection on things.

Remember when Dennis showed up to one of Tommy's in store appearances for his 7 Deadly Zens album in 1998? I think it was summer, so before they went to do BNW.

I seem to recall Tommy and JY both stating that the 96/97 reunion tours, and then recording BNW were terrible experiences, showing them that Dennis hadn't changed and was still controlling and upsetting to them...

Tommy seems pretty happy and comfortable with Dennis here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5G8bDVujS8

I find these kinds of things really surprising when they are used to show everyone "how happy they seemed" together. I mean how many times have you had a family member or a friend and their spouse seem "happy" together but deep down inside they despise each other and you find out they are headed fora divorce?

how many times do you have to act "comfortable" and "happy" around people professionally for the good of your job or your career?

and how many times have you ever been around someone that you 've had problems with in the past for one reason or another and all of a sudden you seem them after a long time and everything is all nostalgic and fun and good times during that encounter......but you know going much beyond that will lead to old problems resurfacing?

I can cite MULTIPLE times in my own life that all of the scenarios pop up on a regular basis. So I think DDY showing up at a public appearance for TS promoting a new album means that they both would only be on their best behavior.

[StyxGuy]

I absolutely understand that.

What I'm trying to kind of grasp here is that Tommy and JY talk about the mid-late 90s being 'just as bad' as back in the days of Kilroy and even Cornerstone...

They lament a lot about how controlling and off-track Dennis was with the kind of music they wanted to make versus what he wanted and that he was more or less a dictator who made everyone miserable on multiple levels... yet the only thing that truly removed Dennis from the band was his illness and inability (or as JY puts it, refusal) to go on tour.

If he had made that tour for BNW... would he still be there? I mean now that he's not we got Tommy and JY opening the floodgates... would they just have harboured this 'resentment' into the 2000s?

[masque]

I absolutely understand that.

What I'm trying to kind of grasp here is that Tommy and JY talk about the mid-late 90s being 'just as bad' as back in the days of Kilroy and even Cornerstone...

They lament a lot about how controlling and off-track Dennis was with the kind of music they wanted to make versus what he wanted and that he was more or less a dictator who made everyone miserable on multiple levels... yet the only thing that truly removed Dennis from the band was his illness and inability (or as JY puts it, refusal) to go on tour.

If he had made that tour for BNW... would he still be there? I mean now that he's not we got Tommy and JY opening the floodgates... would they just have harboured this 'resentment' into the 2000s?

actually that's a very interesting question......one that I have often wondered about myself. I can only speculate. I do think they were trying to find a way to make it work like alot of business partners or spouses do because of various reasons, whether money or convenience or whatever.

So my speculation is that if DDY had not become light sensitive then I think the whole making of BNW would have been more band involved and they would have likely toured that together.......and that would have probably been it one way or another. ReasonI say that is because whatever reasons TS and JY give for not wanting to be around DDY, the only thing that seems to be consistent is that they both dont want to be around him, therefore, I do think it would not have lasted long term, even if DDY had been healthy during that time. I just think their relationship triangle was close to having ran it's course after spending time on the 2 reunion tours and the making of BNW. DDY having an illness just moved up the breakup between them from a time standpoint.

[Boomchild]

but isn't life one big "perspective"??? isn't the the old saying there are 3 sides to every story, my side, your side and the truth? I dont for one second believe that TS's perspective is any less valid than DDY's perspective of the same events. Therefore, I put alot of weight into what they both say and then try to land somewhere in the middle of what they all say, because I'm betting that the middle ground is probably the most truthful of all.

Sure what you are stating here needs to be taken into account. However, it always seems that TS' drug use is either ignored or "glossed over". I willing to bet "dollars to doughnuts" that it had an significant impact on things. I remember DDY's wife making the remark that TS has did many things he is not proud of. I just get tired of JY and TS being presented at "victims" of DDY. They were all adults at the time. They all most likely made decisions or taken actions that they would change if they could. I still maintain that the biggest driver of all of this was everyone wanted to be in the drivers seat when things got good for them. I'm also sure that money played a big part in it to. I would also add that DDY has said that if things were as bad as the way they have been presented to the public he would have never stayed in the band.

[masque]

but isn't life one big "perspective"??? isn't the the old saying there are 3 sides to every story, my side, your side and the truth? I dont for one second believe that TS's perspective is any less valid than DDY's perspective of the same events. Therefore, I put alot of weight into what they both say and then try to land somewhere in the middle of what they all say, because I'm betting that the middle ground is probably the most truthful of all.

Sure what you are stating here needs to be taken into account. However, it always seems that TS' drug use is either ignored or "glossed over". I willing to bet "dollars to doughnuts" that it had an significant impact on things. I remember DDY's wife making the remark that TS has did many things he is not proud of. I just get tired of JY and TS being presented at "victims" of DDY. They were all adults at the time. They all most likely made decisions or taken actions that they would change if they could. I still maintain that the biggest driver of all of this was everyone wanted to be in the drivers seat when things got good for them. I'm also sure that money played a big part in it to. I would also add that DDY has said that if things were as bad as the way they have been presented to the public he would have never stayed in the band.

totally agree with most of that. I have never felt that TS and JY were "victims"......I see all sides of this....I think DDY was probably the best leader, but I also see things in DDY that would drive me nuts, so I understand why the other two claim to not like working with him.

I also see the side from DDY that maybe TS was an unfocused talented dude that really needed DDY to "guide" him into being the bad ass he was at the time....and I could see DDY being very hurt or frustrated to think TS resented the "help" DDY gave him.

I see why JY felt his role and power be reduced as time went on and considering that we do actually know that JY is a hell of a lot more of a rocker than DDY that DDY';s songs and push for stylistic changes as their careers progressed honestly didn't set well with JY......and I could see DDY thinking JY was a coat tail riding arrogant prick that was lucky to be in his band.

They all have valid points, depending on how you look at it. AND i totally agree that once money, fame and prestige came in, that they all had people whispering in their ears about how they were the real reason for the band's success and that the other guys were standing in their way etc.

[Toph]

[

Tommy seems pretty happy and comfortable with Dennis here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5G8bDVujS8

Of course he does, this entire story about DDY being a tyrant and that they were slaves to him and how awful he was to work with is complete and utter bullshit. But not surprising given Shaw's propensity to pathological lying.

[Toph]

I absolutely understand that.

What I'm trying to kind of grasp here is that Tommy and JY talk about the mid-late 90s being 'just as bad' as back in the days of Kilroy and even Cornerstone...

They lament a lot about how controlling and off-track Dennis was with the kind of music they wanted to make versus what he wanted and that he was more or less a dictator who made everyone miserable on multiple levels... yet the only thing that truly removed Dennis from the band was his illness and inability (or as JY puts it, refusal) to go on tour.

If he had made that tour for BNW... would he still be there? I mean now that he's not we got Tommy and JY opening the floodgates... would they just have harboured this 'resentment' into the 2000s?

actually that's a very interesting question......one that I have often wondered about myself. I can only speculate. I do think they were trying to find a way to make it work like alot of business partners or spouses do because of various reasons, whether money or convenience or whatever.

So my speculation is that if DDY had not become light sensitive then I think the whole making of BNW would have been more band involved and they would have likely toured that together.......and that would have probably been it one way or another. ReasonI say that is because whatever reasons TS and JY give for not wanting to be around DDY, the only thing that seems to be consistent is that they both dont want to be around him, therefore, I do think it would not have lasted long term, even if DDY had been healthy during that time. I just think their relationship triangle was close to having ran it's course after spending time on the 2 reunion tours and the making of BNW. DDY having an illness just moved up the breakup between them from a time standpoint.

I think the making of BNW was a complete disaster and even if he had been well enough to tour, there were so many arguments as to the direction of that album that it was a dumpster fire. Mistake #1 - and I blame DDY for this (yes, write it down) was that he should NEVER have given Tommy control of the "concept" if he couldn't buy into it. Brave New World, the concept, was all Tommy. He was neighbors with the wife of Huxley and wanted to explore the novel as a concept album. I don't think DDY ever bought in or if he did, had a very different vision. Remember all the discussion around the BNW cover? DDY wanted the cover of the single of While's There Still Time as the cover that showed a child in front of a computer? DDY wanted to take the concept in more of a childhood nostalgia route and how much technology has changed us, specifically looking at how children's lives have changed. The theme is right there is Goodbye Roseland. Tommy was looking at more of a cultural change - and, not surprisingly, doing a lot of discussing of drugs/pills etc. (Tommy always like to go there) from the novel (pill for happiness, etc.). Both were dark views - but DDY's was more nostalgic. So the song's have little to do with one another because they couldn't agree on the theme to begin with. DDY either should have gotten on board with Shaw's viewpoint, convinced Shaw to come to his viewpoint, or they should have scrapped the concept altogether and just made an album of songs.

[yogi]

If they would of stayed together & toured and had Hip Hop & Great Masterba.... on their setlist, after I finished vomiting I would have left.

At that point in time DDY did NOT know a rock song from a broadway song. Roseland was GREAT, but everything else he brought to that album wreaked.

[masque]

I absolutely understand that.

What I'm trying to kind of grasp here is that Tommy and JY talk about the mid-late 90s being 'just as bad' as back in the days of Kilroy and even Cornerstone...

They lament a lot about how controlling and off-track Dennis was with the kind of music they wanted to make versus what he wanted and that he was more or less a dictator who made everyone miserable on multiple levels... yet the only thing that truly removed Dennis from the band was his illness and inability (or as JY puts it, refusal) to go on tour.

If he had made that tour for BNW... would he still be there? I mean now that he's not we got Tommy and JY opening the floodgates... would they just have harboured this 'resentment' into the 2000s?

actually that's a very interesting question......one that I have often wondered about myself. I can only speculate. I do think they were trying to find a way to make it work like alot of business partners or spouses do because of various reasons, whether money or convenience or whatever.

So my speculation is that if DDY had not become light sensitive then I think the whole making of BNW would have been more band involved and they would have likely toured that together.......and that would have probably been it one way or another. ReasonI say that is because whatever reasons TS and JY give for not wanting to be around DDY, the only thing that seems to be consistent is that they both dont want to be around him, therefore, I do think it would not have lasted long term, even if DDY had been healthy during that time. I just think their relationship triangle was close to having ran it's course after spending time on the 2 reunion tours and the making of BNW. DDY having an illness just moved up the breakup between them from a time standpoint.

I think the making of BNW was a complete disaster and even if he had been well enough to tour, there were so many arguments as to the direction of that album that it was a dumpster fire. Mistake #1 - and I blame DDY for this (yes, write it down) was that he should NEVER have given Tommy control of the "concept" if he couldn't buy into it. Brave New World, the concept, was all Tommy. He was neighbors with the wife of Huxley and wanted to explore the novel as a concept album. I don't think DDY ever bought in or if he did, had a very different vision. Remember all the discussion around the BNW cover? DDY wanted the cover of the single of While's There Still Time as the cover that showed a child in front of a computer? DDY wanted to take the concept in more of a childhood nostalgia route and how much technology has changed us, specifically looking at how children's lives have changed. The theme is right there is Goodbye Roseland. Tommy was looking at more of a cultural change - and, not surprisingly, doing a lot of discussing of drugs/pills etc. (Tommy always like to go there) from the novel (pill for happiness, etc.). Both were dark views - but DDY's was more nostalgic. So the song's have little to do with one another because they couldn't agree on the theme to begin with. DDY either should have gotten on board with Shaw's viewpoint, convinced Shaw to come to his viewpoint, or they should have scrapped the concept altogether and just made an album of songs.

possibly one of the best posts I have ever seen you make on here......totally agree with all of that!

[masque]

If they would of stayed together & toured and had Hip Hop & Great Masterba.... on their setlist, after I finished vomiting I would have left.

At that point in time DDY did NOT know a rock song from a broadway song. Roseland was GREAT, but everything else he brought to that album wreaked.

goodbye to rose land may be in my top 5 DDY songs of all time......and as great as I think that tune is, I tend to agree with your opinion of most of the rest of the material of his that made it onto BNW.

[masque]

I absolutely understand that.

What I'm trying to kind of grasp here is that Tommy and JY talk about the mid-late 90s being 'just as bad' as back in the days of Kilroy and even Cornerstone...

They lament a lot about how controlling and off-track Dennis was with the kind of music they wanted to make versus what he wanted and that he was more or less a dictator who made everyone miserable on multiple levels... yet the only thing that truly removed Dennis from the band was his illness and inability (or as JY puts it, refusal) to go on tour.

If he had made that tour for BNW... would he still be there? I mean now that he's not we got Tommy and JY opening the floodgates... would they just have harboured this 'resentment' into the 2000s?

actually that's a very interesting question......one that I have often wondered about myself. I can only speculate. I do think they were trying to find a way to make it work like alot of business partners or spouses do because of various reasons, whether money or convenience or whatever.

So my speculation is that if DDY had not become light sensitive then I think the whole making of BNW would have been more band involved and they would have likely toured that together.......and that would have probably been it one way or another. ReasonI say that is because whatever reasons TS and JY give for not wanting to be around DDY, the only thing that seems to be consistent is that they both dont want to be around him, therefore, I do think it would not have lasted long term, even if DDY had been healthy during that time. I just think their relationship triangle was close to having ran it's course after spending time on the 2 reunion tours and the making of BNW. DDY having an illness just moved up the breakup between them from a time standpoint.

I think the making of BNW was a complete disaster and even if he had been well enough to tour, there were so many arguments as to the direction of that album that it was a dumpster fire. Mistake #1 - and I blame DDY for this (yes, write it down) was that he should NEVER have given Tommy control of the "concept" if he couldn't buy into it. Brave New World, the concept, was all Tommy. He was neighbors with the wife of Huxley and wanted to explore the novel as a concept album. I don't think DDY ever bought in or if he did, had a very different vision. Remember all the discussion around the BNW cover? DDY wanted the cover of the single of While's There Still Time as the cover that showed a child in front of a computer? DDY wanted to take the concept in more of a childhood nostalgia route and how much technology has changed us, specifically looking at how children's lives have changed. The theme is right there is Goodbye Roseland. Tommy was looking at more of a cultural change - and, not surprisingly, doing a lot of discussing of drugs/pills etc. (Tommy always like to go there) from the novel (pill for happiness, etc.). Both were dark views - but DDY's was more nostalgic. So the song's have little to do with one another because they couldn't agree on the theme to begin with. DDY either should have gotten on board with Shaw's viewpoint, convinced Shaw to come to his viewpoint, or they should have scrapped the concept altogether and just made an album of songs.

and to be fair, couldn't the same possibility of "not buying fully into the concept" have been what hampered TS's position inside Styx for PT and Kilroy?

I know you are gonna go to the drug issue, and that's fair. drugs are a proven thing to fuck up one's life for sure. But, I also think TS not liking DDY's idea for a concept or not feeling inspired by it may have caused similar issues as you feel it may have for DDY during BNW.

[Boomchild]

[

and to be fair, couldn't the same possibility of "not buying fully into the concept" have been what hampered TS's position inside Styx for PT and Kilroy?

I know you are gonna go to the drug issue, and that's fair. drugs are a proven thing to fuck up one's life for sure. But, I also think TS not liking DDY's idea for a concept or not feeling inspired by it may have caused similar issues as you feel it may have for DDY during BNW.

Sure it could. But lets remember the agreement they had. Meaning they each had equal say. For whatever reason they went along with DDY's ideas. It seems they want to complain about a decision THEY made and had the ability to decline at that time. Again, I say that in these discussions ignore\gloss over the impact of TS' drug use. Perhaps it's because the other band members have chosen not to make it public.

[ChicagoSTYX]

[

Tommy seems pretty happy and comfortable with Dennis here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5G8bDVujS8

Of course he does, this entire story about DDY being a tyrant and that they were slaves to him and how awful he was to work with is complete and utter bullshit. But not surprising given Shaw's propensity to pathological lying.

That’s a false statement. I know some of the roadies from the 70s He was an ass.

[gr8dane]

[

Tommy seems pretty happy and comfortable with Dennis here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5G8bDVujS8

Of course he does, this entire story about DDY being a tyrant and that they were slaves to him and how awful he was to work with is complete and utter bullshit. But not surprising given Shaw's propensity to pathological lying.

That’s a false statement. I know some of the roadies from the 70s He was an ass.

Wow,that's so cool.Would love to hear what they have to say.

[Toph]

Oh then I stand corrected Chicago Styx. If a random roadie said it, of course it must be true. How shortsighted..

[StyxGuy]

Oh then I stand corrected Chicago Styx. If a random roadie said it, of course it must be true. How shortsighted..

I met a roadie at my last Styx show, he told me Tommy had his mandolin brought off the truck and would be playing it that night. And it happened. So there ya go...

[gr8dane]

Oh then I stand corrected Chicago Styx. If a random roadie said it, of course it must be true. How shortsighted..

I met a roadie at my last Styx show, he told me Tommy had his mandolin brought off the truck and would be playing it that night. And it happened. So there ya go...

That's funny.

[gr8dane]

Oh then I stand corrected Chicago Styx. If a random roadie said it, of course it must be true. How shortsighted..

Too funny.If Tommy says something negative about Dennis,it can't be true,because he was on drugs.
If JY says something ,it doesn't count because he is a talentless coat tail riding asshole.
If a roadie(s) says something, it doesn't count because it's just a roadie.


By the way toph,how is your buddy Dave Harris ???

[Cassie May]

Toph wears such extreme blinders that Dennis DeYoung himself could walk into Toph's house, shake Toph's hand, say "Yes, Toph, I am an egotistical ass who is demanding, difficult to work with, and always right!", and Toph would argue with him about it.

[ChicagoSTYX]

Oh then I stand corrected Chicago Styx. If a random roadie said it, of course it must be true. How shortsighted..

This is not a random roadie, It’s a friend of mine that I’ve known for many years. He is also a musician and former band mate of mine. He has no reason to lie. He really doesn’t care for Styx (old or new) all that much. I was just a job.