The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Tue May 08, 2018 10:28 pm

ChicagoSTYX wrote:
This is not a random roadie, It’s a friend of mine that I’ve known for many years. He is also a musician and former band mate of mine. He has no reason to lie. He really doesn’t care for Styx (old or new) all that much. I was just a job.


So it would not be out of the question that his comment(s) may be tainted from his personal bias about the band and it's music.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Wed May 09, 2018 5:11 am

true.....but then again it could be an opinion developed because DDY may indeed just be a plain ole asshole.

doesnt mean he isn't a great singer and songwriter and performer, producer, cook, husband, father, yard maintenance guy, manager, comedian, plexiglass-glass toilet builder. it just means he may be an asshole some of the time to some of the people, enough for those people to believe he is an asshole.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby StyxGuy » Wed May 09, 2018 6:07 am

masque wrote:true.....but then again it could be an opinion developed because DDY may indeed just be a plain ole asshole.

doesnt mean he isn't a great singer and songwriter and performer, producer, cook, husband, father, yard maintenance guy, manager, comedian, plexiglass-glass toilet builder. it just means he may be an asshole some of the time to some of the people, enough for those people to believe he is an asshole.



I know opinions can change, but the interview from '93 I posted with Tommy... he pretty much says Dennis is not the asshole that people might have portrayed him as.

"SW: Quite a number of people have potrayed him to me as someone they don't like very much.
TS: I think Dennis is very likeable. You know, not everybody gets his humor. He's a very bright, very charming guy. Except for when he's mad at me, I enjoy being around him."

and..

"My experience with those guys is, as intelligent as they are, their one downfall is their difficulty in forgiving and moving on. Once you have gotten on their bad side, you're pretty much locked in that position" Which Tommy seems to be with Dennis after the '99 split.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Wed May 09, 2018 11:19 am

StyxGuy wrote:

I know opinions can change, but the interview from '93 I posted with Tommy... he pretty much says Dennis is not the asshole that people might have portrayed him as.

"SW: Quite a number of people have potrayed him to me as someone they don't like very much.
TS: I think Dennis is very likeable. You know, not everybody gets his humor. He's a very bright, very charming guy. Except for when he's mad at me, I enjoy being around him."

and..

"My experience with those guys is, as intelligent as they are, their one downfall is their difficulty in forgiving and moving on. Once you have gotten on their bad side, you're pretty much locked in that position" Which Tommy seems to be with Dennis after the '99 split.


TS also said that "he suffers no fools". Which to me seems that he does not have a high tolerance for when people fuck up or are not meeting his expectations.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Wed May 09, 2018 10:42 pm

yeh I agree with most of the last 2 posts.......I just think they are people that have good qualities and bad qualities, like all of us do.........and they recognize they accomplished great things together and they are proud of that.....but I think TS and JY just feel that when the negative qualities of DDY come out that they are significant to no longer want to be around it.

but they recognize that he does have positive qualities as well......but apparently, they no longer outweigh the negatives.

DDY on the other hand, seems to be a little more nostalgic, on the surface, willing to accept the negative qualities of TS and JY. That's just life and being in a relationship. sounds alot like a divorce.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Toph » Thu May 10, 2018 12:43 am

StyxGuy wrote:
masque wrote:true.....but then again it could be an opinion developed because DDY may indeed just be a plain ole asshole.

doesnt mean he isn't a great singer and songwriter and performer, producer, cook, husband, father, yard maintenance guy, manager, comedian, plexiglass-glass toilet builder. it just means he may be an asshole some of the time to some of the people, enough for those people to believe he is an asshole.



I know opinions can change, but the interview from '93 I posted with Tommy... he pretty much says Dennis is not the asshole that people might have portrayed him as.

"SW: Quite a number of people have potrayed him to me as someone they don't like very much.
TS: I think Dennis is very likeable. You know, not everybody gets his humor. He's a very bright, very charming guy. Except for when he's mad at me, I enjoy being around him."

and..

"My experience with those guys is, as intelligent as they are, their one downfall is their difficulty in forgiving and moving on. Once you have gotten on their bad side, you're pretty much locked in that position" Which Tommy seems to be with Dennis after the '99 split.


Dude...newsflash! Tommy Shaw is a consistent and borderline pathological liar. He changes his story all the time to fit the right narrative. Most addicts do.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Toph » Thu May 10, 2018 12:45 am

Boomchild wrote:
StyxGuy wrote:

I know opinions can change, but the interview from '93 I posted with Tommy... he pretty much says Dennis is not the asshole that people might have portrayed him as.

"SW: Quite a number of people have potrayed him to me as someone they don't like very much.
TS: I think Dennis is very likeable. You know, not everybody gets his humor. He's a very bright, very charming guy. Except for when he's mad at me, I enjoy being around him."

and..

"My experience with those guys is, as intelligent as they are, their one downfall is their difficulty in forgiving and moving on. Once you have gotten on their bad side, you're pretty much locked in that position" Which Tommy seems to be with Dennis after the '99 split.



TS also said that "he suffers no fools". Which to me seems that he does not have a high tolerance for when people fuck up or are not meeting his expectations.


So, his biggest sin is that he is a perfectionist? Hmmm....Maybe that's where all those top 10 singles and platinum albums came from. So, sorry it bothered you Tommy and JY. It must hurt to be rolling in all that money those successful albums and tours brought you and it must be terrible to keep leveraging a brand name that someone else built to line your pockets.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Thu May 10, 2018 4:35 am

toph.....do you honestly believe that DDY would have had the same level of success without TS and JY?

Surely, you can't believe that because even your man crush DDY doesnt believe that.

and before you go on a tirade.......I believe that JY and TS would not have had anywhere near the success they did without DDY.

I do think DDY would have likely had the most success without any of them ever knowing each other. But not to the level he did with TS and JY.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Thu May 10, 2018 5:05 am

masque wrote:yeh I agree with most of the last 2 posts.......I just think they are people that have good qualities and bad qualities, like all of us do.........and they recognize they accomplished great things together and they are proud of that.....but I think TS and JY just feel that when the negative qualities of DDY come out that they are significant to no longer want to be around it.

but they recognize that he does have positive qualities as well......but apparently, they no longer outweigh the negatives.

DDY on the other hand, seems to be a little more nostalgic, on the surface, willing to accept the negative qualities of TS and JY. That's just life and being in a relationship. sounds alot like a divorce.


I think my comment applied more to people other then TS or JY. People like managers, staff and people in the biz. I think that DDY holds himself to very high standards and expects those he is working with to hold the same. I'm sure he pushed JY and TS at times to get the best from them when they felt something was good enough. I think he was good at convincing people to see things his way. I'm sure sometimes he was right and other times he was wrong. But his goals were in the right place.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby ChicagoSTYX » Thu May 10, 2018 5:47 am

Boomchild wrote:
ChicagoSTYX wrote:
This is not a random roadie, It’s a friend of mine that I’ve known for many years. He is also a musician and former band mate of mine. He has no reason to lie. He really doesn’t care for Styx (old or new) all that much. I was just a job.


So it would not be out of the question that his comment(s) may be tainted from his personal bias about the band and it's music.


I suppose that could be true. But why pick on Dennis? He didn’t have an issue with the other members.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Thu May 10, 2018 1:12 pm

ChicagoSTYX wrote:
I suppose that could be true. But why pick on Dennis? He didn’t have an issue with the other members.


I don't know the person but it appears you do. Since you haven't really given details it's really hard to know. Perhaps the road crew or the person your talking about did something that DDY was not happy with and he laid into them. Again, without details it really hard to know.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Thu May 10, 2018 1:34 pm

Toph wrote:So, his biggest sin is that he is a perfectionist? Hmmm....Maybe that's where all those top 10 singles and platinum albums came from. So, sorry it bothered you Tommy and JY. It must hurt to be rolling in all that money those successful albums and tours brought you and it must be terrible to keep leveraging a brand name that someone else built to line your pockets.


I think it has a lot to do with other aspects of how they related or didn't with each other. As well documented, JY and DDY were "polar opposites" when came to musical direction. So from the get go that was a recipe for conflict. As we all know, it did rear it's ugly head. I think you strongly need to take into account the statements made by the person you are so vigorously defending. Which is Styx WOULD NOT have been what it was without the efforts of ALL the members. Meaning that they each brought something to the table that made a very successful formula.

The fact is that the two other main forces in the band felt they could no longer continue with DDY's involvement. I think they handled it in a shitty manner. To which DDY sought legal remedy and they came to an agreement. You may not like it. I may not like it. DDY may not be happy with the final result. But that is life. Not everything works out. For DDY to go back now would only mean it is being done for reasons other then they really want to work together. In my opinion, DDY doesn't need them. TS doesn't need DDY or JY. JY needs a least one of them. What some people, including DDY are looking for is something that is no longer a possibility. They all have seemed to move on. It's time some fans do as well. You have the choice to see who YOU want to see and who YOU don't. I have chosen to follow DDY and what he is doing. I really could care less about what the current incarnation of Styx is doing . The only way I really know what they are doing is by what is posted in this forum.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Thu May 10, 2018 10:33 pm

Boomchild wrote:
Toph wrote:So, his biggest sin is that he is a perfectionist? Hmmm....Maybe that's where all those top 10 singles and platinum albums came from. So, sorry it bothered you Tommy and JY. It must hurt to be rolling in all that money those successful albums and tours brought you and it must be terrible to keep leveraging a brand name that someone else built to line your pockets.


I think it has a lot to do with other aspects of how they related or didn't with each other. As well documented, JY and DDY were "polar opposites" when came to musical direction. So from the get go that was a recipe for conflict. As we all know, it did rear it's ugly head. I think you strongly need to take into account the statements made by the person you are so vigorously defending. Which is Styx WOULD NOT have been what it was without the efforts of ALL the members. Meaning that they each brought something to the table that made a very successful formula.

The fact is that the two other main forces in the band felt they could no longer continue with DDY's involvement. I think they handled it in a shitty manner. To which DDY sought legal remedy and they came to an agreement. You may not like it. I may not like it. DDY may not be happy with the final result. But that is life. Not everything works out. For DDY to go back now would only mean it is being done for reasons other then they really want to work together. In my opinion, DDY doesn't need them. TS doesn't need DDY or JY. JY needs a least one of them. What some people, including DDY are looking for is something that is no longer a possibility. They all have seemed to move on. It's time some fans do as well. You have the choice to see who YOU want to see and who YOU don't. I have chosen to follow DDY and what he is doing. I really could care less about what the current incarnation of Styx is doing . The only way I really know what they are doing is by what is posted in this forum.


well said boom......and while I still choose to follow both and my preference lies with the current version of styx......I still care deeply about both.

with all of that said, I think your post above is one of the best posts on this board and sums up things about as well as they can be.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby yogi » Fri May 11, 2018 12:17 am

[qh.....do you honestly believe that DDY would have had the same level of success without TS and JY?

Surely, you can't believe that because even your man crush DDY doesnt believe that.

and before you go on a tirade.......I believe that JY and TS would not have had anywhere near the success they did without DDY.

I do think DDY would have likely had the most success without any of them ever knowing each other. But not to the level he did with TS and JY.[/quote]uote="masque"]top


Here's my 2 cents.

In the group Styx you had ONE superstar that being Dennis Deyoung, you had one star that being Tommy Shaw, you had a good guitar player,singer and writer in JY. Finally, you had a decent bass player in Chuck and a decent drummer in John. This made up the band Styx that reached the height of their success with these players ( even though I thought Equinox was their best album).

Back in the 70's /80's and we will never know but had they not hooked up I still feel DDY would of made it HUGE either in a band or as a solo artist. He's just too damn good not to make it. Tommy too would have made it big.

Also after hearing and loving Styx's latest release ( The Mission) I feel that DDY was all over that album. Had Tommy, JY and Chuck never played with Dennis their is no way that that album ever gets made.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Fri May 11, 2018 3:41 am

yogi wrote:Here's my 2 cents.

In the group Styx you had ONE superstar that being Dennis Deyoung, you had one star that being Tommy Shaw, you had a good guitar player,singer and writer in JY. Finally, you had a decent bass player in Chuck and a decent drummer in John. This made up the band Styx that reached the height of their success with these players ( even though I thought Equinox was their best album).

Back in the 70's /80's and we will never know but had they not hooked up I still feel DDY would of made it HUGE either in a band or as a solo artist. He's just too damn good not to make it. Tommy too would have made it big.

Also after hearing and loving Styx's latest release ( The Mission) I feel that DDY was all over that album. Had Tommy, JY and Chuck never played with Dennis their is no way that that album ever gets made.


Very well put and and I can agree with your post.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Toph » Sat May 12, 2018 11:10 am

JY should have left Styx after Wooden Nickel. Once Lady hit and realizing DDY's interest in more pop stuff (i.e. Beatles) vs. JY's interest in Hendrix, it was clear they were not on the same page. JY would have been much happier in a heavy metal type of outfit.

Then he could have made videos like this all the time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLlT-98AUtI
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Sat May 12, 2018 12:10 pm

Toph wrote:JY should have left Styx after Wooden Nickel. Once Lady hit and realizing DDY's interest in more pop stuff (i.e. Beatles) vs. JY's interest in Hendrix, it was clear they were not on the same page. JY would have been much happier in a heavy metal type of outfit.

Then he could have made videos like this all the time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLlT-98AUtI


JY knew BEFORE he even joined them that the band wasn't doing the kind of music that interested him. Maybe JY took the gig cause he needed the money at the time and thought it wasn't going to be a permanent situation. I think JY said that a the time the band was popular locally more then most other bands. That they were getting gigs on a regular basis.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby yogi » Tue May 15, 2018 12:23 am

I think that once DDY ditched the accordion, JY knew that TW4/The Tradewinds/ Styx would play the type of music that he liked. I'm sure he also figured they were better than the band he was currently in and it offered him a chance to make more coin.

When JY joined the band, he was on pretty equal footing with Dennis. IMO the dynamics really didnt change until JC left and Tommy came on board.

Most of their songs from Styx 1 thru Pieces of Eight were either fairly progressive or pretty heavy ( with some being both). This seemed to suit them all at the time.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Tue May 15, 2018 8:07 pm

yogi wrote:I think that once DDY ditched the accordion, JY knew that TW4/The Tradewinds/ Styx would play the type of music that he liked. I'm sure he also figured they were better than the band he was currently in and it offered him a chance to make more coin.


Didn't DDY ditch the accordion long before JY came onto the scene? Also, didn't the band JY was in prior to joining break up and that is why he was looking for another band to be in? I think I remember JY saying something about it happened because a key member quit to become a Jehovah's Witness or some other religious group?
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Toph » Wed May 16, 2018 10:42 pm

yogi wrote:I think that once DDY ditched the accordion, JY knew that TW4/The Tradewinds/ Styx would play the type of music that he liked. I'm sure he also figured they were better than the band he was currently in and it offered him a chance to make more coin.

When JY joined the band, he was on pretty equal footing with Dennis. IMO the dynamics really didnt change until JC left and Tommy came on board.

Most of their songs from Styx 1 thru Pieces of Eight were either fairly progressive or pretty heavy ( with some being both). This seemed to suit them all at the time.


The dynamics changed once Lady hit. Every song on Equinox besides "Midnight Ride" was a DDY song.

And again don't by this bullshit argument that everything before "Cornerstone" was either fairly progressive or heavy. Wise up and stop quoting the JY/TS bullshit.

Going backwards - Sing For the Day, Pieces of Eight, I'm Okay, Come Sail Away, Fooling' Yourself, Superstars, Mademoiselle, This Old Man, Light Up, Lonely Child, etc. etc. NONE OF THESE ARE "HEAVY HARD ROCK SONGS" - they are either pop songs or ballads with a bit of a rock flair at the end. Hardly "pretty heavy" - that's crap.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby yogi » Thu May 17, 2018 12:31 am

Poth,

I see just about all of the songs you listed as being somewhat progressive.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Thu May 17, 2018 12:47 am

Toph wrote:
yogi wrote:I think that once DDY ditched the accordion, JY knew that TW4/The Tradewinds/ Styx would play the type of music that he liked. I'm sure he also figured they were better than the band he was currently in and it offered him a chance to make more coin.

When JY joined the band, he was on pretty equal footing with Dennis. IMO the dynamics really didnt change until JC left and Tommy came on board.

Most of their songs from Styx 1 thru Pieces of Eight were either fairly progressive or pretty heavy ( with some being both). This seemed to suit them all at the time.


The dynamics changed once Lady hit. Every song on Equinox besides "Midnight Ride" was a DDY song.

And again don't by this bullshit argument that everything before "Cornerstone" was either fairly progressive or heavy. Wise up and stop quoting the JY/TS bullshit.

Going backwards - Sing For the Day, Pieces of Eight, I'm Okay, Come Sail Away, Fooling' Yourself, Superstars, Mademoiselle, This Old Man, Light Up, Lonely Child, etc. etc. NONE OF THESE ARE "HEAVY HARD ROCK SONGS" - they are either pop songs or ballads with a bit of a rock flair at the end. Hardly "pretty heavy" - that's crap.



I agree that the dynamics changed after lady.

however, wasn't lorelei, mother dear and born for adventure co-written songs?

and lastly, you and I see things completely differently about what constitutes a rock song vs. a ballad or just straight pop as you state.

sing for the day- more folksy with a bit of prog thrown in because of the keys.
pieces of eight- cross between a ballad and prog
I'm OK- straight mid tempo rock song
come sail away- ballad morphed into straight rock song with a dash of prog
fooling yourself- keyboardy light prog
superstars- straight mid tempo rock song
mademoiselle- straight mid tempo rock song
this old man- cross between straight rock, ballad, and prog
light up- straight rock song
lonely child- cross between straight rock and ballad

I think the bulk of those songs have plenty enough "rock" elements that I would consider them far from being just pop songs or ballads. and when you sprinkle those songs above around songs like great white hope, renegade, blue collar man, lord of the rings, grand illusion, miss america, castle walls, midnight ride, born for adventure, queen of spades etc. then it easily shows that styx was a ROCK band first and foremost during those days. The for sure morphed into less of a rock band by cornerstone and beyond because of more ballads and horns and writing styles shifting etc.

But I would for sure consider them up to cornerstone as a keyboard oriented straight rock band with elements of prog thrown in during those days. nothing wrong with that IMO, nor do I think that TS or JY was wrong in how they saw the band during those days.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Thu May 17, 2018 11:32 am

masque wrote:I think the bulk of those songs have plenty enough "rock" elements that I would consider them far from being just pop songs or ballads. and when you sprinkle those songs above around songs like great white hope, renegade, blue collar man, lord of the rings, grand illusion, miss america, castle walls, midnight ride, born for adventure, queen of spades etc. then it easily shows that styx was a ROCK band first and foremost during those days. The for sure morphed into less of a rock band by cornerstone and beyond because of more ballads and horns and writing styles shifting etc.


And it shifted because as DDY pointed out he felt that style of music had runs it's course and he felt in order for the band to stay relevant they needed to branch out into something different. Regardless of what TS and JY feel or say about it now they followed DDY's lead. Also he has said that he was getting tired of repeating the same type of over and over. It yielded their one and only number one single and opened them up to a broader audience. While it confused or dismayed some existing fans it was a good move business wise. In the music business sometimes the choices you make don't line up with your " musical integrity" or isn't exactly the type of music artists really feel like doing. But making money is the point. Once you achieve success the record company expects you to do something to repeat it and hopefully exceed it. At that point if you bomb the label is going to drop you. No matter how you slice it, it's gamble. The way I see it, it paid off for them even though it wasn't exactly what JY and TS may have had in mind.

It's clear DDY was more open minded when it came to the type or style of music the band could do. JY and I think to a lesser extent TS were rigid in that regard. Hence it became one of the reasons for the rift between them. For me personally the "classic Styx line up" never put out anything that made me think of not listening to them or stop buying their music.

At this point what else can be said on this subject? For God's sake, what is done is done. No manner of rehashing is going to change it. It's better to accept things how they are and follow whichever you want to. Be glad they are all still out there playing and creating some new material.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Thu May 17, 2018 10:29 pm

Boomchild wrote:
masque wrote:I think the bulk of those songs have plenty enough "rock" elements that I would consider them far from being just pop songs or ballads. and when you sprinkle those songs above around songs like great white hope, renegade, blue collar man, lord of the rings, grand illusion, miss america, castle walls, midnight ride, born for adventure, queen of spades etc. then it easily shows that styx was a ROCK band first and foremost during those days. The for sure morphed into less of a rock band by cornerstone and beyond because of more ballads and horns and writing styles shifting etc.


And it shifted because as DDY pointed out he felt that style of music had runs it's course and he felt in order for the band to stay relevant they needed to branch out into something different. Regardless of what TS and JY feel or say about it now they followed DDY's lead. Also he has said that he was getting tired of repeating the same type of over and over. It yielded their one and only number one single and opened them up to a broader audience. While it confused or dismayed some existing fans it was a good move business wise. In the music business sometimes the choices you make don't line up with your " musical integrity" or isn't exactly the type of music artists really feel like doing. But making money is the point. Once you achieve success the record company expects you to do something to repeat it and hopefully exceed it. At that point if you bomb the label is going to drop you. No matter how you slice it, it's gamble. The way I see it, it paid off for them even though it wasn't exactly what JY and TS may have had in mind.

It's clear DDY was more open minded when it came to the type or style of music the band could do. JY and I think to a lesser extent TS were rigid in that regard. Hence it became one of the reasons for the rift between them. For me personally the "classic Styx line up" never put out anything that made me think of not listening to them or stop buying their music.

At this point what else can be said on this subject? For God's sake, what is done is done. No manner of rehashing is going to change it. It's better to accept things how they are and follow whichever you want to. Be glad they are all still out there playing and creating some new material.


I agree with most of that above......but that wasn't really my point. my point was that I disagree with the labeling that Toph places on the songs he listed.....I see them differently than he does. I't no big deal, I just like discussing styx.

secondly, my point was that up until Cornerstone, I dont really think it's much of an argument to deny that styx was primarily a rock and roll band, borderline hard rock band with some prog thrown in. even DDY I think would agree with that assessment....it's not a crime or sin to be labeled that......in fact, i think DDY's song's were a huge part of that sound up to that point, meaning that he wrote his fair share of straight rock songs or hard rock songs to that point. and I do think JY was 100% on board with the heavier stuff and I think TS was more eclectic in his writing and preferences but probably preferred things a little more rock oriented......and when I say rock oriented, I mean in tone and production to how songs were done on CB, TGI and POE, vs the tone and production of CS and PT and KWH.

and yes I also agree they followed DDY's lead, but they didn't have much of a choice it seems......they tried firing him and realized that wasn't going to work, because at that time they needed him more than he needed them. so by their own admission, he had already gained the upper hand in controlling the band and came back even more headstrong after his "firing". so I am sure that TS and JY went along for the money but it wasn't what they preferred.

and while the change in their sound certainly exposed them to people that maybe would not have been otherwise, I am not sure it was as necessary as you believe it was. But we will never know at this point because the history is already written.

but anyway you slice it, they have been able to make a living without their primary founding member while playing 98% of their setlist based on their music what was released from 75-78'....so I think the strength of that run of music and it's enduring legacy speaks for itself.......because it basically has kept multiple people employed for close to 20 years now.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby Boomchild » Fri May 18, 2018 1:50 pm

masque wrote:

secondly, my point was that up until Cornerstone, I dont really think it's much of an argument to deny that styx was primarily a rock and roll band, borderline hard rock band with some prog thrown in.


Straight ahead rock with prog elements sprinkled in, yes. I think it's a stretch to say borderline hard rock though.

masque wrote:and yes I also agree they followed DDY's lead, but they didn't have much of a choice it seems......they tried firing him and realized that wasn't going to work, because at that time they needed him more than he needed them. so by their own admission, he had already gained the upper hand in controlling the band and came back even more headstrong after his "firing". so I am sure that TS and JY went along for the money but it wasn't what they preferred.


Sure they had a choice. They could have chosen to vote against DDY's direction. You what has always been missing from TS and JY's statements about this period? Details and specifics on what ideas they had in mind and brought to the table. I also believe that their management and the label applied pressure on them to bring back DDY. When I hear TS and JY talk about this time period, I really think they are hypocrites. They wanted their cake and eat it too. I think DDY was the main person that was the visionary of the group and the others came up short in that department.

masque wrote:and while the change in their sound certainly exposed them to people that maybe would not have been otherwise, I am not sure it was as necessary as you believe it was. But we will never know at this point because the history is already written.


I'm saying this is what DDY believed it to be the case. You also have DDY's statement that after doing two albums in row that were in the same kind of style, he was getting bored with it and was looking for something different. The fact is DDY was more open to different things and the others not so much. As I said it was a gamble and it seemed to overall pay off. TS and JY seemed to want to play it safe and stick to the same formula.

masque wrote:but anyway you slice it, they have been able to make a living without their primary founding member while playing 98% of their setlist based on their music what was released from 75-78'....so I think the strength of that run of music and it's enduring legacy speaks for itself.......because it basically has kept multiple people employed for close to 20 years now.


One could argue back and forth till the cows come home on this one. The reality is Styx had fans that liked them for many different reasons. DDY is out there using the same format they used for years and it is keeping him and his band mates employed. If people didn't like what they did post '78 they wouldn't have been able to continue yet alone achieve their first and only number one album and embark on their biggest tour effort at that time.

Frankly at this point I'm tired of rehashing all the same arguments and debates. I could care less at this point if DDY shares the stage with them again. In my opinion it isn't worth it for any of them. Some just seem to want it to able to "wax the nostalgia". What you would end up with is a Grand Illusion.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Fri May 18, 2018 10:44 pm

^ possibly, let me gaze into my crystal ball and give that some thought.....you may be right. 8)
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Fri May 18, 2018 11:24 pm

Boomchild wrote:
masque wrote:

secondly, my point was that up until Cornerstone, I dont really think it's much of an argument to deny that styx was primarily a rock and roll band, borderline hard rock band with some prog thrown in.


Straight ahead rock with prog elements sprinkled in, yes. I think it's a stretch to say borderline hard rock though.

masque wrote:and yes I also agree they followed DDY's lead, but they didn't have much of a choice it seems......they tried firing him and realized that wasn't going to work, because at that time they needed him more than he needed them. so by their own admission, he had already gained the upper hand in controlling the band and came back even more headstrong after his "firing". so I am sure that TS and JY went along for the money but it wasn't what they preferred.


Sure they had a choice. They could have chosen to vote against DDY's direction. You what has always been missing from TS and JY's statements about this period? Details and specifics on what ideas they had in mind and brought to the table. I also believe that their management and the label applied pressure on them to bring back DDY. When I hear TS and JY talk about this time period, I really think they are hypocrites. They wanted their cake and eat it too. I think DDY was the main person that was the visionary of the group and the others came up short in that department.

masque wrote:and while the change in their sound certainly exposed them to people that maybe would not have been otherwise, I am not sure it was as necessary as you believe it was. But we will never know at this point because the history is already written.


I'm saying this is what DDY believed it to be the case. You also have DDY's statement that after doing two albums in row that were in the same kind of style, he was getting bored with it and was looking for something different. The fact is DDY was more open to different things and the others not so much. As I said it was a gamble and it seemed to overall pay off. TS and JY seemed to want to play it safe and stick to the same formula.

masque wrote:but anyway you slice it, they have been able to make a living without their primary founding member while playing 98% of their setlist based on their music what was released from 75-78'....so I think the strength of that run of music and it's enduring legacy speaks for itself.......because it basically has kept multiple people employed for close to 20 years now.


One could argue back and forth till the cows come home on this one. The reality is Styx had fans that liked them for many different reasons. DDY is out there using the same format they used for years and it is keeping him and his band mates employed. If people didn't like what they did post '78 they wouldn't have been able to continue yet alone achieve their first and only number one album and embark on their biggest tour effort at that time.

Frankly at this point I'm tired of rehashing all the same arguments and debates. I could care less at this point if DDY shares the stage with them again. In my opinion it isn't worth it for any of them. Some just seem to want it to able to "wax the nostalgia". What you would end up with is a Grand Illusion.


when I say I dont think TS and JY had much of a choice I mean that from a "what needed to be done to keep things going and keep the cash rolling in kind of way"........sure they actually did have a choice, but if the label wanted DDY there, as you speculate, and they defied that then the label would likely have stopped their support of the brand. I also mean that they may not had a viable choice but to agree because they had no usable complete ideas, or enough songs written to complete an album without DDY's input. Much like Pink Floyd, some of those guys didn't like Roger's ideas for The wall or the pros and cons of hitchhiking and chose to do the wall, mostly because waters said that if they wanted songs from him it was going to be one or the other......so maybe like Gilmour and Mason realized they HAD to go along with waters to keep the band together because they didn't have enough ideas at that time to forge on without him, maybe TS and JY realized that they HAD to keep DDY around for similar reasons......thus, my reasoning for the possibility of having no choice.

see, I guess I am unique in that I prefer TS over DDY, but I also recognize that DDY was the main brainchild and idea man behind styx. it's exactly how I feel about alot of other bands and artists that have members that are probably more responsible for that band's success than member I like the best ;

I prefer;

Gilmour over Waters
Lifeson over Lee
Walsh over Livgren
Jones over Gramm
Richrath over Cronin
Tabor over Pinnick


now in all of those cases above, I want all of those people to work together and I think their best work was when they worked together.......but when they were together, I preferred the guy who usually received less credit for their sound, writing, or was the less popular guy in most cases, or not the guy who wrote most of the hits. Now I understand in the case of Mick Jones, who was the primary write in Foreigner, and Gary Richrath wrote hits in REO as well, but you know what i mean.

My point is that I can acknowledge that more than one thing is true with styx.....DDY was a super important and talented component of what made styx great and successful and was likely the most important cog in the styx wheel. But I can also say that at the end of the day, I usually prefer TS's and JY's music most of the time, at least on the albums of equinox through Kilroy.

And because of that I actually dont really care who was on drugs, who was an asshole, who was a coattail rider, who was right or wrong, who's the nicest guy or any of that shit.......I'm just thankful for the music they made. Now I will admit, that I do enjoy speculating and talking about the subject of styx in general because they interest me. But I would prefer talking about what songs we like or ranking albums and shit like that.......but after all these years, I suppose most of those topics are tiresome or not exciting enough to people......and this endless debate of the relationships between them all and who was right or wrong seems to be the only thing we can talk about around here. I wish it was different though.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby yogi » Sat May 19, 2018 12:04 am

see below double post
Last edited by yogi on Sat May 19, 2018 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby yogi » Sat May 19, 2018 12:04 am

What the hell is a cog?

Do cogs wear out?

If my tire is not rotating properly could it be because of a cog.

Which industry was better Cogswell Cogs or Spacely Sprockets?

Who was a better boss?

What the hell is a cog?
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Re: The Cornerstone and Beyond myth

Postby masque » Sat May 19, 2018 1:16 am

oh that's right, I forgot, styx didn't have a cog.......they had a cock. 8)
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