I want to start off by saying I love Def Leppard past and present...from High n Dry to Slang...etc.

However, I can't help but think how much of the Leppard sound and edge came from Steve Clarke....its evident from numerous sources he was a great riff writer...even Phil Collen admits this . Steve came up with a majority of the signature licks we have all grown to love.

My question to this board is....do you think creatively the band is even capable of matching such masterpieces as Pyromania and Hysteria without Steve in the mix?

And also, does anyone think the band would benefit by firing Vivian Campbell...the guy is so anti-rock and metal that it blows my mind that he is even in the band.

Alex

deflep_mr wrote:

And also, does anyone think the band would benefit by firing Vivian Campbell...the guy is so anti-rock and metal that it blows my mind that he is even in the band.

Maybe he should team up with Geoff Tate of Queensryche. That dude has also dissed the very type of music that he makes a living from.


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Please visit my blog...Dave's Dominion

Steve's absence is glaring and I've told anyone who will listen as much. I think the change in Def Leppard's sound is more because of Steve being gone than Vivian being there.

DerriD wrote:

Steve's absence is glaring and I've told anyone who will listen as much. I think the change in Def Leppard's sound is more because of Steve being gone than Vivian being there.

Even Phil said he had to re-create Steve's playing for both Adrenalize and RetroActive....I mean..what does that tell you??

Aside from Promises most of the new material has been very chord based.....

First, Phil Collen is one of the most underrated guitarists ever...you let this guy go and he can tear it up. Not to mention I think he is the only one left who wants to rock out.

Steve was great no doubt about it, but I think he would have lost the vote when it came down to it anyway. Hysteria was their best album (generally meaning sales popularity etc) and probably their worst album as well. I tell you why, as soon as that thing sold millions, Joe and others were not going to turn back to HnD. All they cared about at that point was radio play and sales. Unfortunately, Joe and others still haven't figured out that DL isn't going to be that huge again nor get that much radio play other than their classics. If Long Long Way to GO didn't make it, I assure everyone, they will not be as huge anymore. Drives me bonkers, I can guarantee if they brought out a heavier album, it would go platinum.

As a expressed alot before, Vivian is a complete waste...this dude pisses me off to no end. And IMO, he has ruined what DL had left.

defbezerk wrote:

First, Phil Collen is one of the most underrated guitarists ever....

Him and Neal Schon both are very very underrated

defbezerk wrote:

Joe and others were not going to turn back to HnD.

I'm just curious how you know that, I can belive that Joe Elliot would not want to turn back but Steve Clark also? We shouldn't ask for another High N Dry album from the current line-up for one because the two guitarists on that album are no longer in the band, not say that Phil Collen doesn't do these song's justice live but who knows what kind of album it would be if Phil was in the band it could have been good and bad IMO.

defbezerk wrote:

I can guarantee if they brought out a heavier album, it would go platinum.

These days they don't want to be known as just a heavy metal band though and a heavier album would get people saying that they are a heavy metal band. I've never thought they were a heavy metal band from day one though. It is hard to say if a heavier album would do good or not. It could go either way.

I think Vivian is a good guitar player but there is a clear difference between him and Steve Clark and that is what could have lowered the album sales . Steve Clark left the band High N Dry no pun intended when he refused to get his drinking under control. They would have been on the top for good number of years after Hysteria if Steve hadn't blown it. But I have the utmost respect for the guy.


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3rd Generation Classic Rocker!

I wasn't a Lepp fan when Steve was in the band so I've only seen Viv in the band and live. And I love the band now and then.
Viv gets alot of slagging because of "he's not Steve", but the band had to move on and if they can cope when their drummer loses his arm, they can cope when they lose a friend too.
Its more a memorial to him than anything for his songs still to be getting played and loved.

And every new Lepp fan will check out the older stuff too, so he'll be remembered even more.

Both Phil and Viv are damn good guitarists and been damn good when I've seen them over the years.

nic
x

Nic wrote:

Both Phil and Viv are damn good guitarists and been damn good when I've seen them over the years.

nic
x

I never said they weren't good guitarists ....in fact ..from a technical stand point they are probably better "players" than Steve.
But thats the thing about music...its not about how good you play its about how good you are at composing songs.
There are a millions of guitarists who can play a zillion notes in under a second but you'll never hear about them.

I think Leppard lost some songwriting chops when they lost Steve Clarke.

I don't know, both songwriting has merits. But my fave is still the song Slang and second Ride into the sun.
I may be the only Lepp fan that doesn't play her Hysteria cd often. But X and Slang are regulars with me.
Loving Yeah too, except the Happy Mondays track,but then couldn't stand the song when it came out.

Nic
x

everyone needs to get off viv's back! people forget that he is a damn good player. and also, the guys in def leppard want him there.

suck it up folks!!

Yes, Vivian is a good player, but he resents everything metal and hard rock. Even in interviews he's stated that he can't stand playing that type of music and although I loved his Dio albums, I can't say he's done anything in Def Leppard to keep them on the Rock path. Here's part of an interview he did a while back. It was deleted from the Leppard website, but this is what I have:

VIVIAN CAMPBELL: DIO Is 'One Of The Vilest People In The Music Industry' - Oct. 29, 2003

In a recent interview posted on DEF LEPPARD's official web site, current DEF LEPPARD/former DIO guitarist Vivian Campbell talked about his disdain for hard rock. "The real irony of that is I actually don't like hard rock music," he said. "I know it's a strange thing to say, but I don't really care about my past contributions. Even now I still get these guys coming up to me going 'Duuuuuuuude!', giving me the DIO devil sign and yelling 'Holy Diver!!' and 'Rainbow In The Dark, whoo hoo!!' and it's cool that they remember it, but that music never mattered to me — and still doesn't." Campbell went on to praise and rip Ronnie James Dio, with whom he had an acrimonious split in the mid-'80s, "Oh yeah, night after night, [Ronnie] was absolutely on the money," Vivian said. "An incredibly strong voice and within that niche genre of dungeons and dragons and rainbows and midgets... You know, the sorta old school heavy metal, he's an incredible talent. But he's an awful businessman and way more importantly, one of the vilest people in the industry."

As far as albums after Adrenalize go, Slang was well produced, but NOT a Leppard album. Euphoria was good, although it didn't seem to get alot of push. X was a horrible attempt and cashing in on the modern day Bon Jovi train.

I truly believe that Steve Clark was the heart of Def Leppard and kep the band rockin with the best of them. I think if Def leppard want to regain the fanbase they once had, they'll really need to go back and listen to the early albums of On Through The Night thru Hysteria over and over until it sinks into their heads. Over and over I read messageboards full of fans that have been requesting for that to happen, but yet Def Leppard seem to think that the direction they're going in is what the fans want. They really need to pay a little better attention.

As for Vivian Campbell, his writing style and personal preferences have indeed had an impact on the band, and I can't really say it's a good one. He may be a great guy, but I think he's holding them back. I think they should find another rocker of a guitarist and run with it for a while.


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We, The Inept, Lead by the Incompetent, have been doing so much, with so little, for so long... We can practically do anything, with absolutely nothing.

If they put out a harder rocking cd, would it sell more?.....Euphoria was a return to their old sound well somewhat....it went gold in the US, but Slang still outsold it worldwide. I think anything the Lepps release these days wont go platinum.......well maybe a box set....t's just the nature of the music industry.

As for Steve being still alive how would the band sound??? Believe it or not I think they would still sound as they do with Vivian...why?? Because I think the whole band realized they had to change their sound to adapt with the times. And Yeah! would still have been recorded! By the way for the record Steve loved David Bowie and Thin Lizzy much like the rest of the band did. Steve stated over 20 years ago that his favourite album was "Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars". Vivian doesnt like metal...that is understood.....he never said he didn't like rock. 2 completely different things. Viv loves Thin Lizzy, as Steve did too, and Lizzy are defintely rock mixed with a little bit of the blues...

get off his back? fuck him...yeah he is a good player, but it is a shame he wants to play gay music now and dissed all what he used to be about...I am not one to compare him to Steve, but he could replaced him just as well

Steve Clark may have 'kept Def Leppard' rockin', but I don't think Viv is the reason they are not. I think Viv fit into to what Joe (and maybe the others) wanted. Maybe Steve was the one to keep Joe rockin'. I do not think Viv is the sole reason Lep no longer rock. They are old, Joe can't sing like that anymore, and they want to try and have as much commercial success as possible.


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I Am Canadian wrote:

If they put out a harder rocking cd, would it sell more?.....Euphoria was a return to their old sound well somewhat....it went gold in the US, but Slang still outsold it worldwide. I think anything the Lepps release these days wont go platinum.......well maybe a box set....t's just the nature of the music industry.

As for Steve being still alive how would the band sound??? Believe it or not I think they would still sound as they do with Vivian...why?? Because I think the whole band realized they had to change their sound to adapt with the times. And Yeah! would still have been recorded! By the way for the record Steve loved David Bowie and Thin Lizzy much like the rest of the band did. Steve stated over 20 years ago that his favourite album was "Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars". Vivian doesnt like metal...that is understood.....he never said he didn't like rock. 2 completely different things. Viv loves Thin Lizzy, as Steve did too, and Lizzy are defintely rock mixed with a little bit of the blues...

First of all....by today's standards....nothing on Pyromania would be considered too HARD to be played on pop radio.....which means none of their previous albums are too hard for todays pop listeners...its arguable that Bon Jovi's Its My Life is harder than Foolin...which makes it even more frustrating that they sounded like the Backstreet Boys on X.

Next point to be made..I do not disagree that regardless of Steve's involvement Def Leppard has chosen a more pop friendly path. HOWEVER, Steve's riff-writing genious could of possibly sparked the band creatively to write some songs that retained the classic sound. Think about it...the Gods of War riff Steve came up with....imagine how many other nuggets of inspiration he would of contributed. X could of been a different album with Steve....

Rock Rock, Stagefright, Die Hard the Hunter would not be played on radio because those are hard rock. Comparing Foolin to It's my Lif e is absolute insanity.

You are correct in your second paragraph though.

defbezerk wrote:

Rock Rock, Stagefright, Die Hard the Hunter would not be played on radio because those are hard rock. Comparing Foolin to It's my Lif e is absolute insanity.

You are correct in your second paragraph though.

hahaaha...thats funny....I was just trying to make the point that Def Leppard Pyromania is not like Disturbed or Slip Knot...maybe "Rock Rock" is too hard for pop radio but obviously Photograph isnt.

Alex

They aren't like those groups and people don't expect them to be. What the majority of the fans want is something along the lines of Pyro or HnD...something with a little edge. They have become a nostalgic band. I am surprised X didn't absolutely destroy them, since that album was a piece of shit. They should follow what Tesla is doing, then maybe they could become themselves back on the map.

PS - Yeah was retarded as well.

Too rock for pop and too pop for rock...


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defbezerk wrote:

I am surprised X didn't absolutely destroy them, since that album was a piece of shit.
PS - Yeah was retarded as well.

X is probably the only album I cant listen to anymore.... its so contrived and weak.....at least Slang had an edge...
plus...there were absolutely no hooks in most of the songs...Joe talked though Gravity and Cry...ahhh..its unbearable...lol

I can't even get started on Gravity...easily one of their top 5 worst songs.

All Night
Back in your Face
Gravity
You're so Beautiful
Personal Property

all unlistenable

defbezerk wrote:

PS - Yeah was retarded as well.

I really don’t know why everybody is hating on Yeah!, I think the album is great and I enjoy almost every track on it. I don’t know if it is because I am a newer fan and have not been waiting for x years for new original material or what. The fans need to accept the fact that they wanted to do something like that, I’m sure Def Leppard is aware of how cover albums don’t generally do well but they decided to do it anyway doesn’t that tell you something? I respect them for this and for being true to themselves and doing what they wanted to do not what everybody else wants them to do. I mean it is only their band! I know the argument will be they should have put out something the fans wanted ect ect, but when I am a newer or older fan of a band I accept what they do no matter what sometimes I won’t always like it but will not hate on them for it.


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3rd Generation Classic Rocker!

[quote]I really don’t know why everybody is hating on Yeah![quote]

I like Yeah! ...no complaints here.

defbezerk wrote:

I can't even get started on Gravity...easily one of their top 5 worst songs.

All Night
Back in your Face
Gravity
You're so Beautiful
Personal Property

all unlistenable

LOL....All Night is TERRIBLE....what were they thinking....that is definitely the worst Leppard song ever...

Then again..Paper Sun is probably one of the best so they saved Euphoria with that one.

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Is Def Leppard still Def Leppard without Steve Clarke??

No. The band died with him.

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Steve was great no doubt about it, but I think he would have lost the vote when it came down to it anyway. Hysteria was their best album (generally meaning sales popularity etc) and probably their worst album as well. I tell you why, as soon as that thing sold millions, Joe and others were not going to turn back to HnD. All they cared about at that point was radio play and sales. Unfortunately, Joe and others still haven't figured out that DL isn't going to be that huge again nor get that much radio play other than their classics. If Long Long Way to GO didn't make it, I assure everyone, they will not be as huge anymore. Drives me bonkers, I can guarantee if they brought out a heavier album, it would go platinum.

Yeah, they don't get it. Metal sells. 40-year-old popstars don't.

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As for Steve being still alive how would the band sound??? Believe it or not I think they would still sound as they do with Vivian...why??

I highly doubt it. Clark's absence has eviscerated every last metal bone out of the band.

Quote:

Because I think the whole band realized they had to change their sound to adapt with the times.

This is precisely why they don't sell records anymore or make good music. You've neatly summed up in a sentence what's wrong with this band.

Quote:

By the way for the record Steve loved David Bowie and Thin Lizzy much like the rest of the band did. Steve stated over 20 years ago that his favourite album was "Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars". Vivian doesnt like metal...that is understood.....he never said he didn't like rock. 2 completely different things.

Thin Lizzy rocks harder than anything Leppard has done in 18 years. Furthermore, members of Metallica are heavily influenced by Lizzy (Hammett, Burton). Moreover, bands like Sabbath are influenced by jazz and the Beatles. Maybe I've missed the point, but the above poster seems to suggest that Leppard is not truly a metal act because of their influences. This is just total nonsense.

Leppard was a metal band, at least through Hysteria.

Quote:

Leppard was a metal band, at least through Hysteria.

but CLEARLY the band has lost its way....."Pour Some Sugar on Me" should be THE template for the next album..right some freakin ANTHEMS....as lame as some people think Bon Jovi is they have at least gave the rock fans some pretty heavy tunes on Bounce and Have a Nice Day.

I never really thought of Def Leppard as a metal band....they were so much different than Iron Maiden, Judas Priest or Motley Crue...and better in my opinion.

And certainly Thin Lizzy weren't metal. Yes some of today's metal bands were influenced by Lizzy. I see Lizzy as rock with a touch of blues...and I love the band for it. And yes they were famous for their signature twin guitar leads which Phil, Steve and Viv emulated.

One question, everybody is basing how Steve sounded in the 80's.....would he really sound the same today, if he were still alive? Nobody really knows, but an above poster stated that Steve would have probably gone along with the rest of the direction the band was going in...and I strongly believe that too. Hence the sound would have been similar.

Does everyone really think if the Lepps had recorded another Hysteria or Pyromania in 1996 instead of Slang, the band would have been as popular as in the 80's??

The theme of airplay & how to get it is a constantly recurring one for many of the 80s era bands, but I truly believe that the 1996 Telecommunications Deregulation Act drastically reshaped the radio landscape (& the Brit version that came out in 2002 or 2003). The payola going on-since at least the 1950s-also tilts the table, see techdirt.com for more info. I mostly lurk & I am always watching the various fans debate with each other about what a band should or shouldn't do-it's not that so much. Fewer people are determining radio programs/what gets played; it's a monopoly now. You get on clear channel's bad side, guess what-they also own a lot of live venues too. Where else can they play? I wish these millionaire rockers would buy individual radio stations whenever the fcc or whoever auctions off the channels, & they trickle them out like diamonds, if I understand it correctly. A United Artists for the music world, til then it really doesn't matter that much what direction any band goes in, or even if fans call up the local station because that decision to play a song is in the hands of a few.

Quote:

Does everyone really think if the Lepps had recorded another Hysteria or Pyromania in 1996 instead of Slang, the band would have been as popular as in the 80's??

Do you mean "Hysteria or Pyromania" in terms of sound, or do you mean "Hysteria or Pyromania" in terms of quality?

They've released junk since Hysteria, so if you are asking whether a "good" record would sell in the 1996, I would say yes. This is not to say they needed to make an album with an eighties sound (what is that exactly anyway.. their 4 80's albums all sound very different)... just an original record with some good riffs. Clearly "good" metal still sold in the 90's: Metallica sold what, a kazillion copies of the Black Album; Pantera sold millions; Megadeth sold well with Youthanasia and Countdown to Extinction. Heck, Slayer's Divine Intervention sold more than Slang, not bad for an extreme metal band.

The problem with Leppard is that they took their fanbase for granted, lost their major songwriter, and started churning radio songs instead of good songs. The popmetal scene just got stale, and they are a major reason for it. Adrenalize was an abomination that not only killed Def Leppard, but I think it took a lot of air out of the popmetal balloon. Had they come out with a classic album in 1992 the landscape would have been very different...

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Fewer people are determining radio programs/what gets played; it's a monopoly now.

A monopoly is a market with one firm. That is clearly not the case.

Quote:

You get on clear channel's bad side, guess what-they also own a lot of live venues too. Where else can they play? I wish these millionaire rockers would buy individual radio stations whenever the fcc or whoever auctions off the channels, & they trickle them out like diamonds, if I understand it correctly.

Music is available everywhere... satellite, web, and conventional radio are just a few outlets.

Quote:

A United Artists for the music world, til then it really doesn't matter that much what direction any band goes in, or even if fans call up the local station because that decision to play a song is in the hands of a few.

Bands need to focus on making good music not worrying about how it'll get played. The market will respond.