20 years ago today 10/3/1988

RIP Frankie's Playtoy

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Postby Tito » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:18 am

Joe Vana wrote:
Cheryl wrote:
Back to Jimi's new cd....I don't see a lot of people talking bout it here...I think it's an awesome cd, woulda like a few more rockers on it but overall, his voice is in top form.

Cheryl Ann


I think it is a symptom of the industry as a whole.....plus all the hype in the world sometimes does not help a record, it actually hurts it ....when every album over the past few years is "as good as Vital Signs" it gets old as a comparison and loses it's bite.....especially when they are not...Jimi was in Survivor for a great run of tunes he sang...JP was in Survivor for almost all of their entire Legacy and CO-wrote ALL the material with FS....and FS has been through it all.....but even IF the 3 were together as a unit I doubt they would top that album or any of their albums....I Love FS to death, and respect JJ and my legacy with JP is well noted, but put the three together and you get a really good album....but not an album that trumps the old stuff when they were hungry and in their "creative period"....


JV


I think if all parties put aside their differences and focus, they could have one really good last run. Great new album along with a spot on a national tour and perhaps a very small venue or club (House of Blues type) 25 date headline tour. I would do it with both Bichler and Jamison to save voices and have a united band and fan base. Grant it, there is no Dave v. Sammy issues or divide but everyone gets what they want. Bring back Peterik and Ellis naturally. No disrespect to McCauley, Young, or Billy O.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:01 am

Tito wrote:
Ehwmatt wrote:Ya know Tito, when it comes down to it, whatever cheese factor was involved in the AOR of the 80s is offset by the high level of talent that was present across the board in most of the popular AOR bands.

There is some good music from the 90s goin strong, generally the groups that had a strong sense of melody, good vocals, harmonies, etc... like the Gin Blossoms. Just saw them a couple weeks ago and they were great.


Where at though? I know some still tour but they are not in the mainstream if you will. There isn't a major clamoring for that era. Hell, how many 80's compliations are there, just in the last 2 or 3 years alone. Nevermind, the last decade or so. There are very few 90's compliations. I would even submit there are more songs from the early 90's leftover melodic/hair metal era on compilations than the main genre of the 90's. Grant it those songs (hair metal) are usually on the 80's or related compilations but still.

In addition, as far as touring, how many tour packages focus on the 90's. I can't think of one. But, every year there are mulitple 80's related packaged tours...although I've noticed the number has slightly dwindle the last couple of years it seems.

As far as cheesy, don't read my more detail review of THTS above. :oops:


One thing you are forgetting is that the generation that grew up with '90s music isn't quite to the point where they are going to go out and drop dime on 90s compilations and what not. We don't have the money to... yet! I was born in 86, grew up with all the stuff from the '90s, the good and the bad. I still have all my original albums. Factor in the fact that the CD/record industry virtually died as we came of age and the digital phenomenon, and we may never see compilations like that for 90s music. Plus, 90s pop music was arguably more fragmented than the 80s scene with hip-hop, grunge, and other subgenres of pop music coming into their own. The 80s wasn't homogeneous by any stretch, but there's a certain unity you hear even stacking up a midtempo Survivor song vs, say, a Van Halen song.

Most of my friends don't own entire Gin Blossoms, Pearl Jam, Vertical Horizon, Hootie Albums etc., they already downloaded the songs they want from Limewire or (unlikely) bought the songs they wanted off of iTunes. You're never going to be able to compare the two eras going down that path I don't think. As for tour packages, like you (I think) alluded to, many of the biggest '90s acts are either dead or broken up for the time being.

Groups like Soundgarden, No Doubt, and Hootie are broken up (I think No Doubt may be reuniting, not sure). Alice In Chains is perhaps among the first of the 90s to enlist a hired gun lead singer after Layne Staley OD'd. They gig and are in the studio recording as we speak. Once reunions and/or replacements begin happening, I wouldn't be shocked to see 90s tour packages start cropping up in another 7-10 years when my generation is aging a bit and starting to get the nostalgia bug (and money to satisfy it through purchasing compilations/concert tickets/etc).

And a point I want to make sure isn't lost in all of this, there is no questioning the fact that the '80s acts in general just had more talent as a whole. Doesn't mean there weren't excellent bands in the 90s though.
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Postby Tito » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:45 am

Ehwmatt wrote:One thing you are forgetting is that the generation that grew up with '90s music isn't quite to the point where they are going to go out and drop dime on 90s compilations and what not. We don't have the money to... yet! I was born in 86, grew up with all the stuff from the '90s, the good and the bad. I still have all my original albums. Factor in the fact that the CD/record industry virtually died as we came of age and the digital phenomenon, and we may never see compilations like that for 90s music. Plus, 90s pop music was arguably more fragmented than the 80s scene with hip-hop, grunge, and other subgenres of pop music coming into their own. The 80s wasn't homogeneous by any stretch, but there's a certain unity you hear even stacking up a midtempo Survivor song vs, say, a Van Halen song.

Most of my friends don't own entire Gin Blossoms, Pearl Jam, Vertical Horizon, Hootie Albums etc., they already downloaded the songs they want from Limewire or (unlikely) bought the songs they wanted off of iTunes. You're never going to be able to compare the two eras going down that path I don't think. As for tour packages, like you (I think) alluded to, many of the biggest '90s acts are either dead or broken up for the time being.

Groups like Soundgarden, No Doubt, and Hootie are broken up (I think No Doubt may be reuniting, not sure). Alice In Chains is perhaps among the first of the 90s to enlist a hired gun lead singer after Layne Staley OD'd. They gig and are in the studio recording as we speak. Once reunions and/or replacements begin happening, I wouldn't be shocked to see 90s tour packages start cropping up in another 7-10 years when my generation is aging a bit and starting to get the nostalgia bug (and money to satisfy it through purchasing compilations/concert tickets/etc).

And a point I want to make sure isn't lost in all of this, there is no questioning the fact that the '80s acts in general just had more talent as a whole. Doesn't mean there weren't excellent bands in the 90s though.


I disagree. By the mid 90's and in some cases as early at '93, people were already throwing down money for concerts and there were already tour packages (Reo/Survivor, Foreigner, & Steve Miller shows come to mind for me). I was just graduating high school in '93 and throughout my college years '93-'97 I probably went to more concerts than I did in the last few years. Lets use '96 as the starting point for the resurgence (Journey and VH temp reunions as well as others). That was 6 to 10 years (depending on your taste) after the peak of the melodic rock era so to speak. Now fast forward to the 90's grunge and lets say '94 or even '96 was the peak. Here we are a solid 12 or 14 years later and there isn't even a hint of any life in the retro 90's movement both in tours or the music itself.

With the exception of Pearl Jam, possibly No Doubt (although this may be more of them or at least Gwen staying in the limelight this whole time), and possibly STP, I don't see any draws for this bands going forward. AIC and Nirvana will never come back to the top because of lead singers dying (good career move for Kurt though). Really, a lot of the bands were one album wonders. Only a select few have catalogs.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:55 am

Tito wrote:
Ehwmatt wrote:One thing you are forgetting is that the generation that grew up with '90s music isn't quite to the point where they are going to go out and drop dime on 90s compilations and what not. We don't have the money to... yet! I was born in 86, grew up with all the stuff from the '90s, the good and the bad. I still have all my original albums. Factor in the fact that the CD/record industry virtually died as we came of age and the digital phenomenon, and we may never see compilations like that for 90s music. Plus, 90s pop music was arguably more fragmented than the 80s scene with hip-hop, grunge, and other subgenres of pop music coming into their own. The 80s wasn't homogeneous by any stretch, but there's a certain unity you hear even stacking up a midtempo Survivor song vs, say, a Van Halen song.

Most of my friends don't own entire Gin Blossoms, Pearl Jam, Vertical Horizon, Hootie Albums etc., they already downloaded the songs they want from Limewire or (unlikely) bought the songs they wanted off of iTunes. You're never going to be able to compare the two eras going down that path I don't think. As for tour packages, like you (I think) alluded to, many of the biggest '90s acts are either dead or broken up for the time being.

Groups like Soundgarden, No Doubt, and Hootie are broken up (I think No Doubt may be reuniting, not sure). Alice In Chains is perhaps among the first of the 90s to enlist a hired gun lead singer after Layne Staley OD'd. They gig and are in the studio recording as we speak. Once reunions and/or replacements begin happening, I wouldn't be shocked to see 90s tour packages start cropping up in another 7-10 years when my generation is aging a bit and starting to get the nostalgia bug (and money to satisfy it through purchasing compilations/concert tickets/etc).

And a point I want to make sure isn't lost in all of this, there is no questioning the fact that the '80s acts in general just had more talent as a whole. Doesn't mean there weren't excellent bands in the 90s though.


I disagree. By the mid 90's and in some cases as early at '93, people were already throwing down money for concerts and there were already tour packages (Reo/Survivor, Foreigner, & Steve Miller shows come to mind for me). I was just graduating high school in '93 and throughout my college years '93-'97 I probably went to more concerts than I did in the last few years. Lets use '96 as the starting point for the resurgence (Journey and VH temp reunions as well as others). That was 6 to 10 years (depending on your taste) after the peak of the melodic rock era so to speak. Now fast forward to the 90's grunge and lets say '94 or even '96 was the peak. Here we are a solid 12 or 14 years later and there isn't even a hint of any life in the retro 90's movement both in tours or the music itself.

With the exception of Pearl Jam, possibly No Doubt (although this may be more of them or at least Gwen staying in the limelight this whole time), and possibly STP, I don't see any draws for this bands going forward. AIC and Nirvana will never come back to the top because of lead singers dying (good career move for Kurt though). Really, a lot of the bands were one album wonders. Only a select few have catalogs.


To be honest, I think another big reason I somehow forgot to mention is that, unfortunately, music just isn't as important to my generation as the ones that came before it. All that technology has done for us - home theater experiences that nearly match the theater, videogames, more TV, Internet etc etc., in addition to the lack of a diverse, genuinely "good" crop of music to choose from has really made music take a back seat in my generation's entertainment culture. It sucks.
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Postby Tito » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:13 am

I agree. As bad as the legacy was of the 90's, the 2000's will be worse. No one buys full albums anymore, they just download specific songs. It will be hard for artist to truly develop a great catalog except the very few who can have hit after hit after hit. But even then they will just be greatest hits tour right out of the gate and by the time they are dinosaurs, who will want to hear them. Even now, even the top acts are struggling to sell tickets. If you can't do serious business now, I doubt you'll be able to tear the house down in 10 or 20 years. The only upside for current artist is there are a whole range of avenues to explore with marketing their music,etc. So, although they may not be able to sellout venues they can make money via other avenues.
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Postby Ehwmatt » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:35 am

Tito wrote:I agree. As bad as the legacy was of the 90's, the 2000's will be worse. No one buys full albums anymore, they just download specific songs. It will be hard for artist to truly develop a great catalog except the very few who can have hit after hit after hit. But even then they will just be greatest hits tour right out of the gate and by the time they are dinosaurs, who will want to hear them. Even now, even the top acts are struggling to sell tickets. If you can't do serious business now, I doubt you'll be able to tear the house down in 10 or 20 years. The only upside for current artist is there are a whole range of avenues to explore with marketing their music,etc. So, although they may not be able to sellout venues they can make money via other avenues.


Don't get me wrong, (lack of) quality is part of the reason for the decline in interest in music over the last 15, 17 years. But, I think if you could somehow rewrite history and have bands that were big in the 60s-80s come up now, they wouldn't ever develop the fanbase or blaze the concert trail the way they legendarily did. Technology has just brought too many alternative forms of entertainment (and more work as well) for average people to sit down and spin albums or go as crazy over music as people once did anymore.

Outside of people I play music with, I know maybe 2 or 3 guys that actually listen to entire albums on a regular basis.
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Postby Joe Vana » Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:42 pm

MarcelJordan wrote:Speaking of change, some bands actually did do that 21 years ago! Case in point- Mr. Mister. Their Go On album was no match to the success of Welcome To The Real but I dare say Go On is a better album. Yet, they suffered a backlash getting only a Grammy nomination but commercially a disappointing failure, IMO. Funny is that 20 years later, I think Mr. Mister if they released Go On now album now, it would be getting rave reviews (perhaps they may need to change their name though :wink: ) and a commercial success.

But in this industry, it would be more damned if you did, damned if you don't. Sigh.

Oh and Joe, I was listening to Mr. Mister's Bare My Soul. A catchy tune that I like much more now then back in '87. What are or were your picks from Go On?


Mr. Misters drummer Pat Mastelotto is Mecca's drummer :-)

Cool you dug Go ON....it is their best work besides PULL, which is fucking fantastic....
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Postby MarcelJordan » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:10 pm

Tito wrote:

Funny thing, I've seen people here talk about a western saloon part to HCD and I had no idea what they were talking about at first. After listening to it again, I hear what they are talking about but I actually like that. It's probably one of the better keyboard/piano parts to the whole album.


Raises hand over the HCD saloon part. I still don't care for it. Now, listen to Toto's "Selfish". Its got that saloon sound but throughout that track it fits like a glove. Then again I think Selfish is Toto's best tune on Mindfields. Maybe Im selfish.

:lol:

Tito nice point of views you made about the keyboard sound. JP will not be happy :twisted:
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Postby MarcelJordan » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:22 pm

Joe Vana wrote:Mr. Misters drummer Pat Mastelotto is Mecca's drummer :-)

Cool you dug Go ON....it is their best work besides PULL, which is fucking fantastic....


Im very aware and really PLEASED Pat is Mecca's drummer. I love his sound and Im looking very much forward to your new album. Its a shame Richard Page is somewhere surfing on a beach happily (Im happy he's happy don't get me wrong) semi-tired. The guys made an excellent combination. Page's voice will be missed but love his version of Circle of Life better than Sir Elton John's.

Pull is more underrated than Go On. Then again it was never released. Tunes like We Belong to No One and Like Rain Falling, Way Oh (Toto eat your heart out :twisted:)

Any way of Pat giving Richard a ring and perhaps join you on Mecca's third? 8)
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Postby Joe Vana » Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:42 pm

MarcelJordan wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:Mr. Misters drummer Pat Mastelotto is Mecca's drummer :-)

Cool you dug Go ON....it is their best work besides PULL, which is fucking fantastic....


Im very aware and really PLEASED Pat is Mecca's drummer. I love his sound and Im looking very much forward to your new album. Its a shame Richard Page is somewhere surfing on a beach happily (Im happy he's happy don't get me wrong) semi-tired. The guys made an excellent combination. Page's voice will be missed but love his version of Circle of Life better than Sir Elton John's.

Pull is more underrated than Go On. Then again it was never released. Tunes like We Belong to No One and Like Rain Falling, Way Oh (Toto eat your heart out :twisted:)

Any way of Pat giving Richard a ring and perhaps join you on Mecca's third? 8)


Watch this video and listen to a singer emote passion, love and and overall sense of complete control of his instrument!!!

www.richardpagemusic.om
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Postby MarcelJordan » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:24 pm

Joe Vana wrote:
MarcelJordan wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:Mr. Misters drummer Pat Mastelotto is Mecca's drummer :-)

Cool you dug Go ON....it is their best work besides PULL, which is fucking fantastic....


Im very aware and really PLEASED Pat is Mecca's drummer. I love his sound and Im looking very much forward to your new album. Its a shame Richard Page is somewhere surfing on a beach happily (Im happy he's happy don't get me wrong) semi-tired. The guys made an excellent combination. Page's voice will be missed but love his version of Circle of Life better than Sir Elton John's.

Pull is more underrated than Go On. Then again it was never released. Tunes like We Belong to No One and Like Rain Falling, Way Oh (Toto eat your heart out :twisted:)

Any way of Pat giving Richard a ring and perhaps join you on Mecca's third? 8)


Watch this video and listen to a singer emote passion, love and and overall sense of complete control of his instrument!!!

www.richardpagemusic.com


Joe, you've made my day no...year!

Didn't know he was still active, ignorant me. Itunes, here I come. :D

When Quicktime fails, there's always youtube :P : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMKI55zartk

Beautiful :cry: :)
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Postby Tito » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:57 am

MarcelJordan wrote:
Tito wrote:

Funny thing, I've seen people here talk about a western saloon part to HCD and I had no idea what they were talking about at first. After listening to it again, I hear what they are talking about but I actually like that. It's probably one of the better keyboard/piano parts to the whole album.


Raises hand over the HCD saloon part. I still don't care for it. Now, listen to Toto's "Selfish". Its got that saloon sound but throughout that track it fits like a glove. Then again I think Selfish is Toto's best tune on Mindfields. Maybe Im selfish.

:lol:

Tito nice point of views you made about the keyboard sound. JP will not be happy :twisted:


I know and I felt bad about saying it. But, I needed to be honest. More good news, I listened to the disc a few more times and I'm really starting to warm up to it. Even the keyboard parts aren't as distracting.
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Postby MarcelJordan » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:54 pm

Tito wrote:
MarcelJordan wrote:
Tito wrote:

Funny thing, I've seen people here talk about a western saloon part to HCD and I had no idea what they were talking about at first. After listening to it again, I hear what they are talking about but I actually like that. It's probably one of the better keyboard/piano parts to the whole album.


Raises hand over the HCD saloon part. I still don't care for it. Now, listen to Toto's "Selfish". Its got that saloon sound but throughout that track it fits like a glove. Then again I think Selfish is Toto's best tune on Mindfields. Maybe Im selfish.

:lol:

Tito nice point of views you made about the keyboard sound. JP will not be happy :twisted:


I know and I felt bad about saying it. But, I needed to be honest. More good news, I listened to the disc a few more times and I'm really starting to warm up to it. Even the keyboard parts aren't as distracting.


I've listened the album countless of times since '88. It hasn't really improved with age for me. The biggest problem with me is I just hated that both Stephan and Marc were not involved in the album. I miss their sound. Oh well. To make it worse its hard for me to accept Frankie not being with Marc. After all it Marc was Frankie's friend many years before that. Anyway, that's my problem. :wink:
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