Question For Joe Vana

[Eyeof]

Slander Please...pull your head out of his....

[Slander]

Slander Please...pull your head out of his....

Sorry this is one topic that is up for discussion. Then again what do you know about ethics? Right?

[MarcelJordan]

I always wondered that also. I met Dave Bicklers younger brother in 1995 I think at a local huge summer festival and he said his brother did a few of those demo's for Vital Signs but who knows...he was like a few people that day to busy trashing Jamo for calling himself Survivor and playing that gig. Nice guy and he looked SO much like Dave.

. I often wondered the same thing you guys did but having listened to it for 22 yrs most of those songs I just can't see them writing for DB. Wayyy to sugary and poppy and its my least favorite album by them BY FAR.

NO guitars on much of it..lacked fire n balls of the first 4 but its there biggest success. Proof positive to me that if Scotti bros. weren't so busy chopping off this or that n bustin' noses they could've had more hits with Survivor if they put some juice behind other singles and albums.


c.m.

Hi there Marty! With regards to VS songs for Dave, although I don't have the transcripts, either it was Frankie or Jim who mentioned it on the net or mag...I can't remember exactly but am certain this was so.

[Eyeof]

Slander what do you know about what I know or don't know?

Geessh, can't you just shut your big mouth for once. Man, if you knew half of what you think you know, you would be dangerous.

[Eyeof]

You know as for Dave and Vital Signs, if you listen to some of the songs when he sings them live (of course that would be on a boot and therefore it might hurt Slander's fragile feelings) they sound more like him.

Broken Promises is a song that Dave knocks out of the park and actually with Dave on vocals it gives High on You and I Can't Hold Back a complete different edge. And I love the way Dave sounds on "The Search Is Over", it's really awesome...do you guys agree?

So I can see where that album could have been written for Dave and I think it would have had a complete differnet edge to it had he stayed with the band. I would love a copy of that whole album with Dave on vocals. I would do about anything for that.

[MarcelJordan]

Broken Promises is a song that Dave knocks out of the park and actually with Dave on vocals it gives High on You and I Can't Hold Back a complete different edge. And I love the way Dave sounds on "The Search Is Over", it's really awesome...do you guys agree?

So I can see where that album could have been written for Dave and I think it would have had a complete differnet edge to it had he stayed with the band. I would love a copy of that whole album with Dave on vocals. I would do about anything for that.

I agree Eye of! Make that two of us

[silvergirl66]

Eyeof, I'd throw in my bucks to help buy that Dave VS album! Bring on Dave!

[Slander]

Slander what do you know about what I know or don't know?

Geessh, can't you just shut your big mouth for once. Man, if you knew half of what you think you know, you would be dangerous.

All I am claiming is that the issues of ethics when it comes to bootlegs is valid. Do you or don't you agree with this? That's all that I was claiming before being jumped all over. I have mixed feelings on the topic.

[Eyeof]

I don't disagree, but that is not what you said...and it's always the problem with you...

your exact words were:

"Then again what do you know about ethics? Right?"

It's what you always do, that statement was condescending and you were trying to insult me as always...You have no idea what I do or don't know, and you were wrong to say that. I will defend myself every single time you attack me...I have never went out of my way to attack you...

As far as boots, trust me I wish there were real high quality stuff to purchase. I would much rather go to the store and by a concert with Dave or a new album or anything, than search over and over the net or whatever, get some tape, spend hours getting it over to the computer or ripping the sound off a VHS or DVD...

I can see in some instances why it hurts the artist, but as for me I'm going to buy anything Survivor the second it some out. Unfortunatly that does not happen very much and boots and demos are all we have....

[Slander]

I don't disagree, but that is not what you said...and it's always the problem with you...

your exact words were:

"Then again what do you know about ethics? Right?"

It's what you always do, that statement was condescending and you were trying to insult me as always...You have no idea what I do or don't know, and you were wrong to say that. I will defend myself every single time you attack me...I have never went out of my way to attack you...

As far as boots, trust me I wish there were real high quality stuff to purchase. I would much rather go to the store and by a concert with Dave or a new album or anything, than search over and over the net or whatever, get some tape, spend hours getting it over to the computer or ripping the sound off a VHS or DVD...

I can see in some instances why it hurts the artist, but as for me I'm going to buy anything Survivor the second it some out. Unfortunatly that does not happen very much and boots and demos are all we have....

Okay Eyeof this is getting silly. I made the comment after you told me to pull my head out his.....Whatever you meant by that. Was that a compliment. The hypocrisy on the board is starting to get silly. In any event, I thank you for the thoughtful response. I have mixed feelings on boots. It's a good honest debate to have.

[Journey/Survivor]

You know as for Dave and Vital Signs, if you listen to some of the songs when he sings them live (of course that would be on a boot and therefore it might hurt Slander's fragile feelings) they sound more like him.

Broken Promises is a song that Dave knocks out of the park and actually with Dave on vocals it gives High on You and I Can't Hold Back a complete different edge. And I love the way Dave sounds on "The Search Is Over", it's really awesome...do you guys agree?

So I can see where that album could have been written for Dave and I think it would have had a complete differnet edge to it had he stayed with the band. I would love a copy of that whole album with Dave on vocals. I would do about anything for that.

Back in August of 1993 me and a couple of my friends drove a couple of hundred miles to go to a Survivor concert. One of those friends of mine is a bigger Jamison fan than Bickler, but he does also like Dave a lot too. The other friend of mine that went to the show is a bigger Bickler fan, but he does like Jimi too.

Anyway, the friend who is a bigger Jamison fan kept saying on the drive to the show that he was afraid that Dave might not be able to pull off the Jamison-sung Survivor songs.

But it was quickly agreed once the show started that Dave was doing a fantastic job on all of the songs.
There were only two dissapointing things about that show, one being that they only played 10 songs that night even though they were the headlining band, and the other complaint was that they only did 1 of the songs that had originally been sung by Dave, that of course being Eye Of The Tiger. The rest were all Jamison-Survivor songs.

[IngoK]

Thank you Joe. I am tired of people actng like boots are no big deal.

I don´t think you paid Frankie for the Fire makes steel demos

[Eyeof]

Exactly...

[Slander]

Thank you Joe. I am tired of people actng like boots are no big deal.

I don´t think you paid Frankie for the Fire makes steel demos

Yes I do have the demos. Absolutely. I said I have mixed feelings on boots not that I'm against them.

[Red13JoePa]

They don't put anything out.

There's no choice for me to seek new fresh survivor music through bootlegs.

[Slander]

They don't put anything out.

There's no choice for me to seek new fresh survivor music through bootlegs.

You are right Red. That's why I say I have mixed feelings on the topic. It's almost like on an artist by artist basis. I Buy melodicrock music. I will never download it for free. There are groups out there that need our support. We need to buy there music to keep the genre alive. Does that make sense?

[silvergirl66]

I always support my favorite bands, whenever they put something new out, I buy it. But I could never understand Survivor, why they wouldn't put out a cd of some kind and sell it at their shows. That's where the fans are. Other bands do it, 38 special, Night Ranger, Eddie Money, I can name several that I've attended the past few years that promote themselves at the shows. Why not Survivor?

[Slander]

I always support my favorite bands, whenever they put something new out, I buy it. But I could never understand Survivor, why they wouldn't put out a cd of some kind and sell it at their shows. That's where the fans are. Other bands do it, 38 special, Night Ranger, Eddie Money, I can name several that I've attended the past few years that promote themselves at the shows. Why not Survivor?

Red I have said this since I joined the board. The band I feel is not good at promotion. For whatever reason it's not their thing. I talked to Silvergirl about this before. They need a lesson in marketing. I said that way back in 1982! Being on Scotti brothers didn't help though. The band should have been as big as others. The talent was there but I believe the marketing was not.

[axecrew]

I always support my favorite bands, whenever they put something new out, I buy it. But I could never understand Survivor, why they wouldn't put out a cd of some kind and sell it at their shows. That's where the fans are. Other bands do it, 38 special, Night Ranger, Eddie Money, I can name several that I've attended the past few years that promote themselves at the shows. Why not Survivor?

Red I have said this since I joined the board. The band I feel is not good at promotion. For whatever reason it's not their thing. I talked to Silvergirl about this before. They need a lesson in marketing. I said that way back in 1982! Being on Scotti brothers didn't help though. The band should have been as big as others. The talent was there but I believe the marketing was not.

Then if you feel that way it begs the question.......Who's in charge of promotions? Is it the management company who dropped the ball? The Band? Who has dropped the ball in this area for 25 years then?

[Slander]

I always support my favorite bands, whenever they put something new out, I buy it. But I could never understand Survivor, why they wouldn't put out a cd of some kind and sell it at their shows. That's where the fans are. Other bands do it, 38 special, Night Ranger, Eddie Money, I can name several that I've attended the past few years that promote themselves at the shows. Why not Survivor?

Red I have said this since I joined the board. The band I feel is not good at promotion. For whatever reason it's not their thing. I talked to Silvergirl about this before. They need a lesson in marketing. I said that way back in 1982! Being on Scotti brothers didn't help though. The band should have been as big as others. The talent was there but I believe the marketing was not.

Then if you feel that way it begs the question.......Who's in charge of promotions? Is it the management company who dropped the ball? The Band? Who has dropped the ball in this area for 25 years then?

Axe I think all of the above. There's no question the talent was there. I believe Scotti Brother should take a major hit for this. Certain they are too blame for the failure of THTS.

[axecrew]

I always support my favorite bands, whenever they put something new out, I buy it. But I could never understand Survivor, why they wouldn't put out a cd of some kind and sell it at their shows. That's where the fans are. Other bands do it, 38 special, Night Ranger, Eddie Money, I can name several that I've attended the past few years that promote themselves at the shows. Why not Survivor?

Red I have said this since I joined the board. The band I feel is not good at promotion. For whatever reason it's not their thing. I talked to Silvergirl about this before. They need a lesson in marketing. I said that way back in 1982! Being on Scotti brothers didn't help though. The band should have been as big as others. The talent was there but I believe the marketing was not.

Then if you feel that way it begs the question.......Who's in charge of promotions? Is it the management company who dropped the ball? The Band? Who has dropped the ball in this area for 25 years then?

Axe I think all of the above. There's no question the talent was there. I believe Scotti Brother should take a major hit for this. Certain they are too blame for the failure of THTS.

Agree Scotti Bros. should take a hit........WSC didn't exactly set the world on fire as far as sales either, if I remember. Even with a video that never got played.

[Slander]

Agree Scotti Bros. should take a hit........WSC didn't exactly set the world on fire as far as sales either, if I remember. Even with a video that never got played.

Axe I think WSC barely went gold. It hit the top 50 briefly and was long gone. I think by 1987 the tide was turning against bands like Survivor. I've posted this before-my male friends thought the band wussed out. While Is This Love is a catchy pop diddy it didn't win my male friends over. It was a little to sugary. Yes VS had some of that same sap but the album wasn't as keyboard heavy. You can't even find a video for Is This Love on YouTube. At least I haven't found one.

[MarcelJordan]

Agree Scotti Bros. should take a hit........WSC didn't exactly set the world on fire as far as sales either, if I remember. Even with a video that never got played.

Axe I think WSC barely went gold. It hit the top 50 briefly and was long gone. I think by 1987 the tide was turning against bands like Survivor. I've posted this before-my male friends thought the band wussed out. While Is This Love is a catchy pop diddy it didn't win my male friends over. It was a little to sugary. Yes VS had some of that same sap but the album wasn't as keyboard heavy. You can't even find a video for Is This Love on YouTube. At least I haven't found one.

Wasn't How Much Love the next single? I think THAT was the nail in the you know what. VS had I Can't Hold Back as the first single, a rocker while WSC started the wrong way IMO. Plus they should have included Burning Heart in WSC. Oh well.

[Slander]

Agree Scotti Bros. should take a hit........WSC didn't exactly set the world on fire as far as sales either, if I remember. Even with a video that never got played.

Axe I think WSC barely went gold. It hit the top 50 briefly and was long gone. I think by 1987 the tide was turning against bands like Survivor. I've posted this before-my male friends thought the band wussed out. While Is This Love is a catchy pop diddy it didn't win my male friends over. It was a little to sugary. Yes VS had some of that same sap but the album wasn't as keyboard heavy. You can't even find a video for Is This Love on YouTube. At least I haven't found one.

Wasn't How Much Love the next single? I think THAT was the nail in the you know what. VS had I Can't Hold Back as the first single, a rocker while WSC started the wrong way IMO. Plus they should have included Burning Heart in WSC. Oh well.

Does anyone know why Burning Heart wasn't on WSC? I never understood that.

[MarcelJordan]

Agree Scotti Bros. should take a hit........WSC didn't exactly set the world on fire as far as sales either, if I remember. Even with a video that never got played.

Axe I think WSC barely went gold. It hit the top 50 briefly and was long gone. I think by 1987 the tide was turning against bands like Survivor. I've posted this before-my male friends thought the band wussed out. While Is This Love is a catchy pop diddy it didn't win my male friends over. It was a little to sugary. Yes VS had some of that same sap but the album wasn't as keyboard heavy. You can't even find a video for Is This Love on YouTube. At least I haven't found one.

Wasn't How Much Love the next single? I think THAT was the nail in the you know what. VS had I Can't Hold Back as the first single, a rocker while WSC started the wrong way IMO. Plus they should have included Burning Heart in WSC. Oh well.

Does anyone know why Burning Heart wasn't on WSC? I never understood that.

Perhaps because it wasn't a love song

[Slander]

Agree Scotti Bros. should take a hit........WSC didn't exactly set the world on fire as far as sales either, if I remember. Even with a video that never got played.

Axe I think WSC barely went gold. It hit the top 50 briefly and was long gone. I think by 1987 the tide was turning against bands like Survivor. I've posted this before-my male friends thought the band wussed out. While Is This Love is a catchy pop diddy it didn't win my male friends over. It was a little to sugary. Yes VS had some of that same sap but the album wasn't as keyboard heavy. You can't even find a video for Is This Love on YouTube. At least I haven't found one.

Wasn't How Much Love the next single? I think THAT was the nail in the you know what. VS had I Can't Hold Back as the first single, a rocker while WSC started the wrong way IMO. Plus they should have included Burning Heart in WSC. Oh well.

Does anyone know why Burning Heart wasn't on WSC? I never understood that.

Perhaps because it wasn't a love song

You are right. It doesn't fit. I got my friends hooked on Burning Heart and then when WSC came out they were surprised by how poppy it was. Having said that I love FS quitar work in Oceans and Can't Let You Go.

[MarcelJordan]

Agree Scotti Bros. should take a hit........WSC didn't exactly set the world on fire as far as sales either, if I remember. Even with a video that never got played.

Axe I think WSC barely went gold. It hit the top 50 briefly and was long gone. I think by 1987 the tide was turning against bands like Survivor. I've posted this before-my male friends thought the band wussed out. While Is This Love is a catchy pop diddy it didn't win my male friends over. It was a little to sugary. Yes VS had some of that same sap but the album wasn't as keyboard heavy. You can't even find a video for Is This Love on YouTube. At least I haven't found one.

Wasn't How Much Love the next single? I think THAT was the nail in the you know what. VS had I Can't Hold Back as the first single, a rocker while WSC started the wrong way IMO. Plus they should have included Burning Heart in WSC. Oh well.

Does anyone know why Burning Heart wasn't on WSC? I never understood that.

Perhaps because it wasn't a love song

You are right. It doesn't fit. I got my friends hooked on Burning Heart and then when WSC came out they were surprised by how poppy it was. Having said that I love FS quitar work in Oceans and Can't Let You Go.

That's true. Also agreed TOTALLY on Oceans and CLYG. Its funny that when they put love songs out from the Eye album in '82, those Bombed! Except for Silver Girl a smash in the Philippines if I remember correctly.

When I first heard Is this love on Rick Dees Weekly top 40 show (I didn't buy the record till later). That rim shots on the drums was so un-survivor like. If the idea was to try to do a "Journey" from Send Her My Love, then BAD MOVE.

Although I think ISL is a crafted well. I can be weird eh?

[Slander]

Although I think ISL is a crafted well. I can be weird eh?

Is This Love Is a great piece of pop. I took a friend of mine to see Survivor back then and he called them the tightest band he had ever heard-almost too rehearsed. He was disappointed in the show. He told me he would have liked to have seen a little more ad-lib. I thought that was interesting and telling. He wanted more edge! How ironic. More edge from a group with a tough name called Survivor.

[Joe Vana]

They don't put anything out.

There's no choice for me to seek new fresh survivor music through bootlegs.

I have the demo's as well....I recieved a dat of the originals....and copied it to CD...so I guess they are as close to masters as you will get...I really dug the demos....the rawness of the vocals by Dave was great...and Jimi's stuff is quite good as well....Velocitized which we covered on Mecca 1 was a great track....we never even came close to matching/beating/coping Frankies Guitar tone or feel on that one, but it still turned out amazingly well because of Shannon Forrest on drums and David Hungate on bass.....

As far as bootlegs as an artist I have to take the stand against them....but if the band you love has not had alot of new stuff in a bunch of years and you are wanting more, and have an opporatunity for a bootleg, then take it I say....I do own some myself...I have a bunch of Mr. Mister stuff and other rare material..and some is ONLY avilable on bootleg...so it's hard to get down on people for bootlegging, as long as it is about a passion for the band and not $$$, then I am all for it!!!!

JV

[Joe Vana]

I always support my favorite bands, whenever they put something new out, I buy it. But I could never understand Survivor, why they wouldn't put out a cd of some kind and sell it at their shows. That's where the fans are. Other bands do it, 38 special, Night Ranger, Eddie Money, I can name several that I've attended the past few years that promote themselves at the shows. Why not Survivor?

Red I have said this since I joined the board. The band I feel is not good at promotion. For whatever reason it's not their thing. I talked to Silvergirl about this before. They need a lesson in marketing. I said that way back in 1982! Being on Scotti brothers didn't help though. The band should have been as big as others. The talent was there but I believe the marketing was not.

Then if you feel that way it begs the question.......Who's in charge of promotions? Is it the management company who dropped the ball? The Band? Who has dropped the ball in this area for 25 years then?

Generally the label is SUPPOSED to fill that bill.....however, how many times have you read "the band guy at the label left so the band was forgotten about"....happens all the time....Some bands are promoting machines, Survivor I felt was a split...Franke is pretty reserved and not a self promoting kind of guy, JP is a promoting machine 24/7....so go figure....

JV