Survivor Playing Springtime Rockfest in Hamburg, Germany

by **axecrew** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:30 am

Gee.......must be important for you to keep bringing it up. Guess that tells everyone all they need to know....your mouth or hands in this case is writing checks your ass can't cash.

The post that you responded to was not negative is any way....simply stated that bands could care less about the core group of fans buying their albums...they will anyway as evident by reach. They care about the impulse or the on the fence buyer.....that's the target group they are after. And I-tunes doesn't give you anything tangible to look at or hold. So please tell me how that is negative towards sullivan or survivor in any way, shape or form.

As for my post about sullivan in general...yes they are negative by nature.......answer this.....what has he given anyone to be positive about? And don't tell me about the 15 or so shows every year with the never changing setlist and his desire to solo his way thru 1/3 of the show.
And leave out anything about new music as those were just more bullshit by him.

by **Slander** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:51 am

axecrew wrote:As for my post about sullivan in general...yes they are negative by nature.......

Thanks for making my point. Moving along. Nothing new to see here. Next.

by **axecrew** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:44 pm

Thank you for making my point even better for me......ignore everything in the post EXCEPT what benefits or can be twisted to benefit you. What are you 12?

Again.....what has sullivan given anyone to be even remotely positive about? Albums that don't exsist? Stories that are hinted at but never told? Truths that never seem to be found?
Handful of live show per year while passing it off like he's so busy he can't even sleep at night?

Sorry for asking about some inconvienent truths, but feel free to answer anyway. Im sure you'll be able to explain it all away.

by **Slander** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:06 am

axecrew wrote:Again.....what has sullivan given anyone to be even remotely positive about? Albums that don't exsist? Stories that are hinted at but never told? Truths that never seem to be found?
Handful of live show per year while passing it off like he's so busy he can't even sleep at night?

Sorry for asking about some inconvienent truths, but feel free to answer anyway. Im sure you'll be able to explain it all away.

Dude, all of this is your opinion only. Some of us dig the band in it's current state. Do we want new music? Hell yes! Do we wish Survivor played 100 plus dates a year? Hell yes! Do I wish FS would quit getting our hopes up? Yes! My god, if you have followed my posts for the last 5 years, I have been very critical about the bands lack of activity. Having said that, what do I need to explain away? FS can do whatever he wants with his god given talents. Who the f*** are you or anyone else to judge what people to with their lives or their art? Seriously. You must get over your problem with self-importance despite who you know. In fact, it may be because you consider yourself on the inside that your emotions get in the way. You carry no more weight than the rest of us here. This is only a bulletin board not a court room.

by **axecrew** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:27 am

Yes...it is my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Just like you are to yours. Have I ever once ridiculed you for your opinion? No I haven't....what I don't get is why is it I'm not entitled to my opinion according to you.
You're entitled to like the current line-up, but yet I'm not allowed to not like it. You're allowed to "wish they played more dates", but I'm not allowed to rip or mention the fact that they don't. You're allowed to "wish sullivan would stop getting your hopes up" but I'm not allowed to rip him for his lies and broken promises, and that's exactly what they are.

Because I have an opinion that doesn't jive with the kool-aid drinkers I consider myself self-important...
Because of who I know I consider myself on the inside......when in fact I don't consider myself on the inside, in fact I wouldn't want to be on the inside of this catastrophy to be honest and emotions play no part in what I think one way or the other.
Telling or judging what sullivan does with his talents is none of my business and I have never said what he should or shouldn't do with them. What i have questions was his penchant for leading the bands remaining fans along with bullshit.
And while this isn't a court room, it is a court of public opinion and my feelings carry just as much weight as any.
Furthermore...my truthful and complete opinion is that frankie sullivan has and is still being given way too much credit for survivor's past success and even tho he did make major contributions, he isn't nor was he the be all, end all that some would like to annoint him as. And I think that the 2 most current releases from the principles of the old band underscore that thought tremendously. One one side you have reach....many have complained that is was a sonically poor sounding record, including those who appeared on it. The songs that are mentioned most by fans as being favorites were written by Jim.
On the other side you have Jimi's album "Crossroads Moment" which, with the exception of a song or 2, has been heralded by most as a fantastic album and his "comeback" album. Which was written and produced by Jim.
Both albums were released by the same company so there is no saying one or the other was released by the better label.

Doesn't really take a genius to see who was the main reason for the success of the band in the past and the reason for the lack of it now. And furthermore it doesn't take a genius to see who pushed the band into the studio to record, with help from the label of course.

Survivor has become a nostalgia act living on it's past laurels, just like the Temptations and others...only difference is Survivor has 1 member who was there from the beginning.

by **Slander** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:34 am

axecrew wrote:Yes...it is my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Just like you are to yours.

Has anyone ever been entitled to a POSITIVE opinion about FS or Survivor in their current state on this bulletin board without having a bunch of negative bullshit to sift through? The answer is no. Those of us who like FS and enjoy the band are constantly deluged with "noise" on the board. FS is the anti-christ, Survivor sucks, and so on. The negative outweigh the positive. This thread is proof. I posted one simple concert date and you go on a diatribe. Like I said you let your emotions get the best of you. Start your own damn bb about how FS sucks and Survivor sucks. Hell do daily updates! Why don't you?

by **Red13JoePa** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:14 am

Slander wrote: Start your own damn bb about how FS sucks and Survivor sucks. Hell do daily updates! Why don't you?

No need.
We've got Andrew's bandwith right here :lol:

by **axecrew** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:09 am

Again slander.....ignore what was actually said in the post and go on a poor me tirade. Never once did you ever address a single thing I said in your poor me rambling tirade. But I'm not shocked at all, whenever someone says something you can't refute that is your mo...try to push the focus and attention away from that fact. No one has ever said that this board has to be doom and gloom, and equally no one ever said it has to be all sunshine and roses. Either take the bad with the good, or take your own advice and start your own board of sullivan's sunshine. That way you can regulate YOUR board the way YOU want it to come out. Kinda like sully did with the old one he had.........what's that... negative post........erase the post.

by **Slander** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:47 am

axecrew wrote:Again slander.....ignore what was actually said in the post and go on a poor me tirade. Never once did you ever address a single thing I said in your poor me rambling tirade. But I'm not shocked at all, whenever someone says something you can't refute that is your mo...try to push the focus and attention away from that fact. No one has ever said that this board has to be doom and gloom, and equally no one ever said it has to be all sunshine and roses. Either take the bad with the good, or take your own advice and start your own board of sullivan's sunshine. That way you can regulate YOUR board the way YOU want it to come out. Kinda like sully did with the old one he had.........what's that... negative post........erase the post.

WTF are you talking about? Poor me? I have nothing invested here, just a fan of the band. Your facts are your opinion therefore why waste time refuting your opinion. This will lead to more inane back and forth. Like I said, I think you should start your own FS is the Anti-Christ Bulletin Board and bash away. I think you would be better served. By the way back to facts. You guys never answered any questions about sales figures. I asked for specifics in regards to number of units moved on the following:

REACH
PRIDE OF LIONS
ROARING OF DREAMS
CROSSROADS MOMENT
JP's LIFEFORCE
JP's ABOVE THE STORM

I keep hearing all this revisionist history now about how REACH was a pile of ****. Which is bunk. Certainly not the strongest album in the catalog but I speak for many, some on this board, some not on this board, when I say I was glad some of the FMS songs saw the light of day on a release. CROSSROADS MOMENT, maybe the most overrated disc to get praise on this board. It's far too long and has way too much cheese on it to be a masterpiece. I will give Jimi his due though. He sounded great on it! Do we have any sales figures to go by? No one has touched this topic. I am curious.

by **Journey/Survivor** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:12 pm

Slander wrote:
axecrew wrote:Again slander.....ignore what was actually said in the post and go on a poor me tirade. Never once did you ever address a single thing I said in your poor me rambling tirade. But I'm not shocked at all, whenever someone says something you can't refute that is your mo...try to push the focus and attention away from that fact. No one has ever said that this board has to be doom and gloom, and equally no one ever said it has to be all sunshine and roses. Either take the bad with the good, or take your own advice and start your own board of sullivan's sunshine. That way you can regulate YOUR board the way YOU want it to come out. Kinda like sully did with the old one he had.........what's that... negative post........erase the post.

WTF are you talking about? Poor me? I have nothing invested here, just a fan of the band. Your facts are your opinion therefore why waste time refuting your opinion. This will lead to more inane back and forth. Like I said, I think you should start your own FS is the Anti-Christ Bulletin Board and bash away. I think you would be better served. By the way back to facts. You guys never answered any questions about sales figures. I asked for specifics in regards to number of units moved on the following:

REACH
PRIDE OF LIONS
ROARING OF DREAMS
CROSSROADS MOMENT
JP's LIFEFORCE
JP's ABOVE THE STORM

I keep hearing all this revisionist history now about how REACH was a pile of ****. Which is bunk. Certainly not the strongest album in the catalog but I speak for many, some on this board, some not on this board, when I say I was glad some of the FMS songs saw the light of day on a release. CROSSROADS MOMENT, maybe the most overrated disc to get praise on this board. It's far too long and has way too much cheese on it to be a masterpiece. I will give Jimi his due though. He sounded great on it! Do we have any sales figures to go by? No one has touched this topic. I am curious.

I agree with you that "Reach" is not a piece of crap. It's a good album. Although it ranks last on my list of Survivor albums. I would say that "Fire Makes Steel" "Reach" and "Give Me The Word" rank up there with any of the songs on "Crossroads Moment." However, I disagree with you that CM is overrated. IMO CM is a more solidly good album from start to finish than "Reach."

by **MarcelJordan** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:53 pm

I can't even remember any of the songs of CrossRoads Moment right off the bat except for when Rock Was King. LOL!

While for Reach, its not as difficult to remember the tunes considering Reach is a pretty good tune and having the album title as well.

Personally Gimme the Word is better than anything on CR. CR though is a better produced record.

Just some thoughts.

MJ

by **DavidWT** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:15 am

CROSSROADS MOMENT, maybe the most overrated disc to get praise on this board. It's far too long and has way too much cheese on it

I don't agree with knocking CM for being "too long." While I agree that there are tracks that could/should be scrapped from it, the same can very easily be said about "Reach", which is a much shorter album. So if you scrape away all the filler from both CM and Reach, you end up with more good songs on CM. And it's not as if CM cost more for those extra tracks. As for the "cheese" factor, "Reach" DEFINITELY has its share of cheese.

I don't mind that FS chose to use songs from the FMS sessions, but since he wasn't averse to doing that, I would have preferred that he chose different songs. "Someone Else's Sleepless Night" would have been a good choice to include. instead of including ballad upon ballad upon ballad (or even instead of "Nevertheless," which is an okay song, but always feels a bit out of place and makes the album feel disjointed to me.)

I asked for specifics in regards to number of units moved on the following:

REACH
PRIDE OF LIONS
ROARING OF DREAMS
CROSSROADS MOMENT
JP's LIFEFORCE
JP's ABOVE THE STORM

I have no idea about sales figures, though I would assume "Reach" sold the best. It certainly SHOULD have sold the best, not because it's the best album on this list, but because it has the name "Survivor" on it, which is a name most people already know, and are therefore more likely to stumble upon. The other albums, I'm assuming, were primarily bought by the more diehard fans of Survivor who are aware of the names of the people in Survivor, and went looking for other projects by those people.

by **Slander** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:07 am

Journey/Survivor wrote:[
I However, I disagree with you that CM is overrated. IMO CM is a more solidly good album from start to finish than "Reach."

I do think CM is better overall than REACH. Just don't think CM is the masterpiece everyone claims it to be. Jimi does a great job on it but as always JP doesn't know when to say when. Too much cheese, like When Rock Was King! Good god. Had Sullivan put that crap out this board would have crucified him, instead JP gets a free pass.

by **kgdjpubs** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:25 am

Slander wrote:
Journey/Survivor wrote:[
I However, I disagree with you that CM is overrated. IMO CM is a more solidly good album from start to finish than "Reach."

I do think CM is better overall than REACH. Just don't think CM is the masterpiece everyone claims it to be. Jimi does a great job on it but as always JP doesn't know when to say when. Too much cheese, like When Rock Was King! Good god. Had Sullivan put that crap out this board would have crucified him, instead JP gets a free pass.

I made my own version of CM that eliminated the cheese and Pride of Lions-sounding songs which, at least for me, improved the album quite a bit...

Battersea, Dream Higher, Can't Look Away, Make me a Believer, Crossroads Moment, Alive, Behind the Music, Lost, Love the World Away, Til the Morning Comes, That's Why I Sing, Friends We Never Met

btw, Reach wasn't that bad....it just really fell off in the second half.

by **Eyeof** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:21 am

damn it slander...I'm sick and tired of this "Rock Was King" bashing!!!! Why not just start a Rock was King Bashing board and update it everyday....

Rock was King, next to November Rain and Stair Way to Heaven are the greatest tunes in ROCK history! "When Rock was KIINNNNGGG!"

That is my FS is soooo mad...he was not invited to play in the awesome video...

On another note, I found the numbers we were looking for:

REACH - Reach sold 11 copies (me, Red, Slander, Frankie, Frankie's Mom, JV, AXE, Joe, Andrew, Marcel, 7 wishes and JJ (he had to buy is copy).
PRIDE OF LIONS - it sold four copies (me, Slander, Andrew and Axe)
ROARING OF DREAMS - It sold no copies.
CROSSROADS MOMENT - 15 copies...much the same, and some mainstays because Rock was King kicked so much ass.
JP's LIFEFORCE - two copies
JP's ABOVE THE STORM - It sold three, but one person sent it back.

by **Journey/Survivor** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:48 am

Eyeof wrote:damn it slander...I'm sick and tired of this "Rock Was King" bashing!!!! Why not just start a Rock was King Bashing board and update it everyday....

Rock was King, next to November Rain and Stair Way to Heaven are the greatest tunes in ROCK history! "When Rock was KIINNNNGGG!"

That is my FS is soooo mad...he was not invited to play in the awesome video...

On another note, I found the numbers we were looking for:

REACH - Reach sold 11 copies (me, Red, Slander, Frankie, Frankie's Mom, JV, AXE, Joe, Andrew, Marcel, 7 wishes and JJ (he had to buy is copy).
PRIDE OF LIONS - it sold four copies (me, Slander, Andrew and Axe)
ROARING OF DREAMS - It sold no copies.
CROSSROADS MOMENT - 15 copies...much the same, and some mainstays because Rock was King kicked so much ass.
JP's LIFEFORCE - two copies
JP's ABOVE THE STORM - It sold three, but one person sent it back.

Damn you, Eyeof. Your numbers are WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off I bought "Reach" too.

You must feel the fool right now. :roll:

by **Joe Vana** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:20 pm

Eyeof wrote:damn it slander...I'm sick and tired of this "Rock Was King" bashing!!!! Why not just start a Rock was King Bashing board and update it everyday....

Rock was King, next to November Rain and Stair Way to Heaven are the greatest tunes in ROCK history! "When Rock was KIINNNNGGG!"

That is my FS is soooo mad...he was not invited to play in the awesome video...

On another note, I found the numbers we were looking for:

REACH - Reach sold 11 copies (me, Red, Slander, Frankie, Frankie's Mom, JV, AXE, Joe, Andrew, Marcel, 7 wishes and JJ (he had to buy is copy).
PRIDE OF LIONS - it sold four copies (me, Slander, Andrew and Axe)
ROARING OF DREAMS - It sold no copies.
CROSSROADS MOMENT - 15 copies...much the same, and some mainstays because Rock was King kicked so much ass.
JP's LIFEFORCE - two copies
JP's ABOVE THE STORM - It sold three, but one person sent it back.

I didn't BUY Reach....hahahahah.....

by **Red13JoePa** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:25 pm

Just release the NEW Survivor music that has been threatened/promised already.

by **axecrew** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:57 pm

Reach.....didn't buy it, downloaded it for free listened to about 1 and 1/2 songs and threw it away, did make Jim a copy tho.

Pride of Lions....Did buy this one
Roaring of Dreams.....can't honestly remember if i bought it or Jim gave it to me, think I bought it
Crossroads Moment.......given to me by Jimi
Lifeforce.....Did buy this one
Above the Storm....don't own it

You forgot 2 tho
Destiny's Stone....bought that one as well
Pride of Lions Live album with bonus tracks and DVD....Jim gave me this as well

by **Slander** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:38 pm

So help me out here boys and girls. I heard a lot of bitching and whining on the board about record distribution (lack thereof) and no one knows or gives a rats ass if these albums sold at all? Then what's the point in putting them out? Just so were clear here, no one has any concrete sales figures on any of these releases? So we can put to bed the claim that REACH was a failure from a sales standpoint? JV might know best, but what is considered a top selling album on Frontiers? How many units need to move?

by **Joe Vana** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:46 pm

Slander wrote:So help me out here boys and girls. I heard a lot of bitching and whining on the board about record distribution (lack thereof) and no one knows or gives a rats ass if these albums sold at all? Then what's the point in putting them out? Just so were clear here, no one has any concrete sales figures on any of these releases? So we can put to bed the claim that REACH was a failure from a sales standpoint? JV might know best, but what is considered a top selling album on Frontiers? How many units need to move?

Reach was the biggest seller of the group of albums presented....BUT< it was ONLY because the Survivor BRAND was attached to it...

What is a big seller??? I think the average Frontiers release is about 3 to 5,000....Mecca luckily far surpassed and kicked the shit out of that ;-)

hahahah....but, believe it or not that is the average!!!

Frontiers has had some big 100,000 plus sellers too....but average is 3 to 5k....

Lifeforce I have no idea, but I did hear he spent a ton on marketing...so I hope it sold well...

I think the others were within range and a few surpassed that.....I think Reach probably did 20k...maybe more....for Frontiers....IMHO....

BUT...what do you think a FS Blues album would sell??

by **Slander** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:06 am

Joe Vana wrote:
Slander wrote:So help me out here boys and girls. I heard a lot of bitching and whining on the board about record distribution (lack thereof) and no one knows or gives a rats ass if these albums sold at all? Then what's the point in putting them out? Just so were clear here, no one has any concrete sales figures on any of these releases? So we can put to bed the claim that REACH was a failure from a sales standpoint? JV might know best, but what is considered a top selling album on Frontiers? How many units need to move?

Reach was the biggest seller of the group of albums presented....BUT< it was ONLY because the Survivor BRAND was attached to it...

What is a big seller??? I think the average Frontiers release is about 3 to 5,000....Mecca luckily far surpassed and kicked the shit out of that hahahah....but, believe it or not that is the average!!!

Frontiers has had some big 100,000 plus sellers too....but average is 3 to 5k....

Lifeforce I have no idea, but I did hear he spent a ton on marketing...so I hope it sold well...

I think the others were within range and a few surpassed that.....I think Reach probably did 20k...maybe more....for Frontiers....IMHO....

BUT...what do you think a FS Blues album would sell??

Thank you JV. I know the store I bought REACH from had it as a top seller for like 2 months. I also think FS said it moved between 35-40k. He made a comment in a band note that we don't have access to. I'm not trying to compare REACH to other side projects. It's been said by some that the album didn't sell. From what you tell me, it sold well relative to Frontiers expectations.

by **Eyeof** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:23 am

JV...

An FS Blues Band Project: Slander would buy two copiers, Frankie 3, Frankie would make every guy in the band buy a copy, so I have it sales at about seven or eight units....thoughts?

by **axecrew** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:03 pm

Joe....If an album sells 8 TIMES or 4 to 5( using your numbers) the amount of average sales for a record label, it would stand to reason that the label would be clamoring to release that artist's next album wouldn't it? And if that hypothesis is true then it also stands to reason that if the label ISNT excited to release that artist's new album, there has to be a reason behind that thinking because afterall the label is there to make money.
So having said all of that, One can conclude that one or more of the following is in play...
#1) Said Artist wants more money than label feels comfortable paying for the album.
#2) Said album doesn't meet label's standards sonically
#3) Other album's sales figures have been inflated.
#4)Album is nowhere near ready to be released

I'm sure there are other scenario's that I've omitted. Interested to get your take on it...Thanks Joe.

by **Joe Vana** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:24 am

[quote="axecrew"]Joe....If an album sells 8 TIMES or 4 to 5( using your numbers) the amount of average sales for a record label, it would stand to reason that the label would be clamoring to release that artist's next album wouldn't it? And if that hypothesis is true then it also stands to reason that if the label ISNT excited to release that artist's new album, there has to be a reason behind that thinking because afterall the label is there to make money.
So having said all of that, One can conclude that one or more of the following is in play...
#1) Said Artist wants more money than label feels comfortable paying for the album.
#2) Said album doesn't meet label's standards sonically
#3) Other album's sales figures have been inflated.
#4)Album is nowhere near ready to be released

I'm sure there are other scenario's that I've omitted. Interested to get your take on it...Thanks Joe.[/quote

Reach had JJ...."new" album would have Robin....maybe they aren't willing to chance on it...I for one did hear How does it Feel....and it sounded good...not classic Survivor, but Robin is a completely different singer...GREAT in his own right....

by **Journey/Survivor** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:47 pm

Joe Vana wrote:I for one did hear How does it Feel....and it sounded good...not classic Survivor, but Robin is a completely different singer...GREAT in his own right....

Does the song Rock even close to the amount that Survivor songs like "She's A Star" or "Children Of The Night" do?

by **Joe Vana** » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:33 pm

Journey/Survivor wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:I for one did hear How does it Feel....and it sounded good...not classic Survivor, but Robin is a completely different singer...GREAT in his own right....

Does the song Rock even close to the amount that Survivor songs like "She's A Star" or "Children Of The Night" do?

NO!

JV

by **MarcelJordan** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:59 pm

Joe Vana wrote:
Journey/Survivor wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:I for one did hear How does it Feel....and it sounded good...not classic Survivor, but Robin is a completely different singer...GREAT in his own right....

Does the song Rock even close to the amount that Survivor songs like "She's A Star" or "Children Of The Night" do?

NO!

JV

Darn!

MJ

by **Joe Vana** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:59 pm

MarcelJordan wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:
Journey/Survivor wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:I for one did hear How does it Feel....and it sounded good...not classic Survivor, but Robin is a completely different singer...GREAT in his own right....

Does the song Rock even close to the amount that Survivor songs like "She's A Star" or "Children Of The Night" do?

NO!

JV

Darn!

MJ

It's not that type of tune....great in it's own right......JV

by **Journey/Survivor** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:08 pm

Joe Vana wrote:
Journey/Survivor wrote:
Joe Vana wrote:I for one did hear How does it Feel....and it sounded good...not classic Survivor, but Robin is a completely different singer...GREAT in his own right....

Does the song Rock even close to the amount that Survivor songs like "She's A Star" or "Children Of The Night" do?

NO!

JV

That's another thing I don't get about Frankie.

For years Neal Schon wanted Journey to ROCK more. But, Steve Perry, and to a lesser extent, Jonathan Cain, tried to keep playing ballads or other lite-Rock songs. Once Perry was gone from Journey, Schon had the band Rocking more than they ever did while Perry was in the band.

I would think that Peterik would have been the band member that steered Survivor toward ballads and other lighter Rock songs? Although, Peterik does like to Rock at times, too.

I would have thought that Sullivan would really want to Rock now that he has full-control of the band. But he had them release "Reach" which was the lightest Rock album that they ever released. Now with Robin in the band you would think that Sullivan would want to make a guitar-heavy-hard-Rocking-album!

MR

Survivor Playing Springtime Rockfest in Hamburg, Germany

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