Head to Head Vital Signs VS When Seconds Count

[Journey/Survivor]

Please give me your opinions on the songs from VS against the songs from WSC going in order.

Here are mine...

"I Can't Hold Back" VS "How Much Love", winner "I can't Hold Back"
"High On You" VS "Keep It Right Here", winner "High On You"
"First Night" VS "Is This Love", winner "First Night"
"The Search Is Over" VS "Man Against The World", winner "The Search Is Over"
"Broken Promises" VS "Rebel Son", winner "Broken Promises"
"Popular Girl" VS "Oceans", winner "Oceans"
"Everlasting" VS "When Seconds Count", winner "When Seconds Count"
"It's The Singer Not The Song" VS "Back Street Love Affair", winner "It's The singer Not The Song"
"I See You In Everyone" VS "In Good Faith", winner "I See You In Everyone"


Some of these were really tough to call. I could have said tie between "First Night" and "Is This Love," it came down to the riff in "First Night."

I also came close to saying a tie between "The Search Is Over" and "Man Against The world."

I love "Rebel Son" a lot, but "Broken Promises" is one of my favorite Survivor songs.

Due to the fact that WSC has 10 songs to VS 9 songs I couldn't use "Can't Let You Go," but if it had gone up against "I See You In Everyone" then "Can't Let You Go" would have won.

[Red13JoePa]

Track-for-track VS is stronger.
Oceans and Can't Let You Go may be the 2 strongest songs of the lot, though.

[Slander]

When Seconds What? I'm still trying to get this album out of memory. Pass the syrup please! Although I agree with Red Oceans and Can't Let You Go work because of Frankie's strong guitar work. There is no comparison. Vital Signs is an aor masterpiece. WSC is an album that I would just as soon forget.

[MarcelJordan]

When Seconds What? I'm still trying to get this album out of memory. Pass the syrup please! Although I agree with Red Oceans and Can't Let You Go work because of Frankie's strong guitar work. There is no comparison. Vital Signs is an aor masterpiece. WSC is an album that I would just as soon forget.

I can't even begin to tell you, how much I agree.

[Frank]

For me there is almost no difference between Vital Signs and When Seconds Count. They are my 2 favourite albums of all-time. Vital Signs just edges When Seconds Count because it has my favourite song of all-time: "I See You In Everyone".

[Slander]

For me there is almost no difference between Vital Signs and When Seconds Count. They are my 2 favourite albums of all-time. Vital Signs just edges When Seconds Count because it has my favourite song of all-time: "I See You In Everyone".

Frank both are well produced albums. I think VS has more of an edge and better songwriting but I can see how you could like both.

[MarcelJordan]

For me there is almost no difference between Vital Signs and When Seconds Count. They are my 2 favourite albums of all-time. Vital Signs just edges When Seconds Count because it has my favourite song of all-time: "I See You In Everyone".

Frank both are well produced albums. I think VS has more of an edge and better songwriting but I can see how you could like both.

To me, VS is better produced. then again, WSC seems more organic, rougher. I know they used exact same equipments. but there was a rawer sound to WSC although syrupy tunes.

There was an interview when it was released and I think it was Jim who said they played it more "live". Intention was to be truer to a live show, rather then being overly polished. Something like that anyway.

Let me be very frank about it...I loved Survivor MORE when Jim and Frank did the producing TOGETHER. ie Premonition/Eye. This was the pinnacle to me. VS is great no doubt. Jimi came irrepressibly and brought a "new" yet ORIGINAL sound back. It was great timing. But to be critical I would say I would have prefered a bit more bass. Meanwhile, after VS i think the pressure of keeping up with the charts took precedence.

Okay, when WSC came out they started with Is this love. But to me they should have started with maybe Can't Let you go first. This way it would prove Survivor indeed was rock band, not pop. Sort of like letting the public know this. They did this with VS right? Can't hold back first. Survivor would have been bigger if they stuck to their guns. Let people know, this is no ordinary chart topping band. Its more about the music not what others think of them or what was the in thing, But who Survivor was.

When you cater to the broader public, its more euphoria than stability. Stallone for example chose Survivor not because they were pop band. The chose them as he liked the raw hard edge to Premonition. Ok maybe blame for the era change, whatever you want to call it. But sticking to your guns WILL be the ultimate high, do what you are really good at and eventually you get the respect.

Sorry for the rambling.

[Slander]

For me there is almost no difference between Vital Signs and When Seconds Count. They are my 2 favourite albums of all-time. Vital Signs just edges When Seconds Count because it has my favourite song of all-time: "I See You In Everyone".

Frank both are well produced albums. I think VS has more of an edge and better songwriting but I can see how you could like both.

To me, VS is better produced. then again, WSC seems more organic, rougher. I know they used exact same equipments. but there was a rawer sound to WSC although syrupy tunes.

There was an interview when it was released and I think it was Jim who said they played it more "live". Intention was to be truer to a live show, rather then being overly polished. Something like that anyway.

Let me be very frank about it...I loved Survivor MORE when Jim and Frank did the producing TOGETHER. ie Premonition/Eye. This was the pinnacle to me. VS is great no doubt. Jimi came irrepressibly and brought a "new" yet ORIGINAL sound back. It was great timing. But to be critical I would say I would have prefered a bit more bass. Meanwhile, after VS i think the pressure of keeping up with the charts took precedence.

Okay, when WSC came out they started with Is this love. But to me they should have started with maybe Can't Let you go first. This way it would prove Survivor indeed was rock band, not pop. Sort of like letting the public know this. They did this with VS right? Can't hold back first. Survivor would have been bigger if they stuck to their guns. Let people know, this is no ordinary chart topping band. Its more about the music not what others think of them or what was the in thing, But who Survivor was.

When you cater to the broader public, its more euphoria than stability. Stallone for example chose Survivor not because they were pop band. The chose them as he liked the raw hard edge to Premonition. Ok maybe blame for the era change, whatever you want to call it. But sticking to your guns WILL be the ultimate high, do what you are really good at and eventually you get the respect.

Sorry for the rambling.

I remember I had gotten a number of my college friends to get into Survivor after Vital Signs. Many of them made the comparison to Journey. Then after the release of Is This Love they turned their back on the group. They thought it was too pop! Not "macho" enough! Survivor had become Glass Tiger!

[Red13JoePa]

Too pop!! Jamo did it!!!

[MarcelJordan]

Too pop!! Jamo did it!!!

Ok, tongue in cheek. Nice try Red.

To me, it wasn't Jamo. It was Scotti Bros. Yes, they were the shite. Scotti Bros. did not promote Survivor convincingly enough.

Glass Tiger...hmmm. Sounds about right. Survivor altered their sound to suit the charts.

Although I did like GT song, Vanishing Tribe and the Bryan Adams influence.

[Slander]

Too pop!! Jamo did it!!!

Red I'm not blaming Jamo at all! The album is dominated by keys and some real cheese. Everyone's entitled to a mulligan! Don't you agree. There are two tracks I really love off the album and you and I have discussed this before. I just think they lost their edge with this record and lost a chance to be a headliner.

[MarcelJordan]

Too pop!! Jamo did it!!!

I just think they lost their edge with this record and lost a chance to be a headliner.

Yep. Then when they decided to go get back in the fold, TOO LATE! THTS flopped. 1988 GNR were BIG, Survivor lost Mike Clink and the rest they say...

Note: Clink began producing in 1986. Steve Kurutz at www.allmusic.com writes about one of Clink’s earliest production experiences: "…after a series of failed attempts, a young band named Guns N' Roses asked Clink to produce their debut album, Appetite for Destruction…" Channeling the unruly GNR's energy into a cohesive, landmark album was no easy task, and because of it Clink is regarded as a man who knows how to get the best results from the acts he works for.”

[IngoK]

Too pop!! Jamo did it!!!

Red I'm not blaming Jamo at all! The album is dominated by keys and some real cheese. Everyone's entitled to a mulligan! Don't you agree. There are two tracks I really love off the album and you and I have discussed this before. I just think they lost their edge with this record and lost a chance to be a headliner.

Think you´re right with this. The songwriting was good (did you hear JP´s version of Is this Love on Cara´s Basement?- great!), but the production was to poppy-maybe they locked Frankie somewhere?

[Slander]

Too pop!! Jamo did it!!!

Red I'm not blaming Jamo at all! The album is dominated by keys and some real cheese. Everyone's entitled to a mulligan! Don't you agree. There are two tracks I really love off the album and you and I have discussed this before. I just think they lost their edge with this record and lost a chance to be a headliner.

Think you´re right with this. The songwriting was good (did you hear JP´s version of Is this Love on Cara´s Basement?- great!), but the production was to poppy-maybe they locked Frankie somewhere?

I remember listening to WSC and thinking uh-oh! Don't get me wrong it's a slick well produced piece of pop but I wasn't sure it was right for the band. I wasn't expecting Vital Signs Part 2 but I wasn't expecting a keyboard dominated album.

[IngoK]

I liked it when I heard it the first time and I still like it today. But it is or better say was too much keyboard dominated. And after all the years asking myself why they never had an Headliner Status (for me they are my personal headliner!) that´s probably one of the reasons.

[Journey/Survivor]

In an interview with Sullivan and Peterik that came out shortly after the release of WSC, Sullivan said that it was Ron Nevison that was pushing for more and more keyboards on the album. Sullivan also said that he thinks that there's more guitar on WSC though than there is on VS.

One friend of mine who is a keyboardist loves the WSC album because of how much keys there are on it.

[Journey/Survivor]

I once told Jamison that I blame Scotti Brothers as being the reason that Survivor never had as much success as Journey, he agreed with me on that.

[Slander]

In an interview with Sullivan and Peterik that came out shortly after the release of WSC, Sullivan said that it was Ron Nevison that was pushing for more and more keyboards on the album. Sullivan also said that he thinks that there's more guitar on WSC though than there is on VS.

One friend of mine who is a keyboardist loves the WSC album because of how much keys there are on it.

Frankie's comments about the album are interesting. Oceans and Can't Let You Go are killer guitars tracks but where else? Maybe I'm missing something. I of course prefer the darker guitars of CITG. Regardless I wasn't kidding earlier when I said a lot of my male friends thought the band wimped out on When Seconds Count. Even the lyrics are more for a female audience. They aren't gritty, street etc. I recently read Andrew's interview with Jamo back in 1999 and Jimi acknowledged that the bands audience was mostly female.

[MarcelJordan]

In an interview with Sullivan and Peterik that came out shortly after the release of WSC, Sullivan said that it was Ron Nevison that was pushing for more and more keyboards on the album. Sullivan also said that he thinks that there's more guitar on WSC though than there is on VS.

One friend of mine who is a keyboardist loves the WSC album because of how much keys there are on it.

Frankie's comments about the album are interesting. Oceans and Can't Let You Go are killer guitars tracks but where else? Maybe I'm missing something. I of course prefer the darker guitars of CITG. Regardless I wasn't kidding earlier when I said a lot of my male friends thought the band wimped out on When Seconds Count. Even the lyrics are more for a female audience. They aren't gritty, street etc. I recently read Andrew's interview with Jamo back in 1999 and Jimi acknowledged that the bands audience was mostly female.

I would add BSLA also as a rocker as it reminds me of COTN especially the bass lines mixing concurrently on top of FS's notes, on the chorus. Plus, its got added touch of Separate Ways (yes, Journey) when it comes to the drums.

[Slander]

In an interview with Sullivan and Peterik that came out shortly after the release of WSC, Sullivan said that it was Ron Nevison that was pushing for more and more keyboards on the album. Sullivan also said that he thinks that there's more guitar on WSC though than there is on VS.

One friend of mine who is a keyboardist loves the WSC album because of how much keys there are on it.

Frankie's comments about the album are interesting. Oceans and Can't Let You Go are killer guitars tracks but where else? Maybe I'm missing something. I of course prefer the darker guitars of CITG. Regardless I wasn't kidding earlier when I said a lot of my male friends thought the band wimped out on When Seconds Count. Even the lyrics are more for a female audience. They aren't gritty, street etc. I recently read Andrew's interview with Jamo back in 1999 and Jimi acknowledged that the bands audience was mostly female.

I would add BSLA also as a rocker as it reminds me of COTN especially the bass lines mixing concurrently on top of FS's notes, on the chorus. Plus, its got added touch of Separate Ways (yes, Journey) when it comes to the drums.

I actually thought that VS opened the door for the band to go in a harder direction. Wow was I way off? I thought the success would have earned them some capitol to do that.

[MarcelJordan]

I actually thought that VS opened the door for the band to go in a harder direction. Wow was I way off? I thought the success would have earned them some capitol to do that.


The problem I think was that they were able to milk TSIO so much that eventually it was decided they carry that formula on. Relatively, I think the female audience (who were into pop) got into them and so that hard edge made way for it. Instead of sticking to their guns, they softened believing this was the way to go.

But again this made things worse, they started losing their catered audience. I think its painfully obvious this was the case, because THTS record was intentionally harder as they knew they were not a pop band but they fell between a rock and a hard place so to speak.

Worse still, losing Marc (for the reasons I digress), showed the discontent in the Survivor camp. I repeat what Marc said about WSC "it was the beginning of the end".

[kgdjpubs]

In an interview with Sullivan and Peterik that came out shortly after the release of WSC, Sullivan said that it was Ron Nevison that was pushing for more and more keyboards on the album. Sullivan also said that he thinks that there's more guitar on WSC though than there is on VS.

One friend of mine who is a keyboardist loves the WSC album because of how much keys there are on it.

Frankie's comments about the album are interesting. Oceans and Can't Let You Go are killer guitars tracks but where else? Maybe I'm missing something. I of course prefer the darker guitars of CITG. Regardless I wasn't kidding earlier when I said a lot of my male friends thought the band wimped out on When Seconds Count. Even the lyrics are more for a female audience. They aren't gritty, street etc. I recently read Andrew's interview with Jamo back in 1999 and Jimi acknowledged that the bands audience was mostly female.

I would add BSLA also as a rocker as it reminds me of COTN especially the bass lines mixing concurrently on top of FS's notes, on the chorus. Plus, its got added touch of Separate Ways (yes, Journey) when it comes to the drums.

The keyboard-heavy production doesn't surprise me much as a lot of bands were using heavy keyboards at the time.
Everyone from Journey to Bon Jovi had a lot of keyboards in the albums of the time. Comparatively-speaking, there were not that many guitar-driven albums around 1985-86, so bringing the keyboards up in the mix was simply going with the trend. The effect in the end is that rock albums of that era don't have that raw edge that a guitar-heavy mix will bring about.

Depending on the way you think of it, I think the songwriting on parts of Vital Signs was FAR more pop than anything on When Seconds Count--Popular Girl and High on You being the most obvious examples, and The Search Is Over is quite possibly the most pop of the ballads. WSC-the song-and Can't Let You Go are heavier than anything on Vital Signs with the exception of First Night, and lyrically, parts of WSC album are deeper (WSC, Man Against the World) compared to the lite-lyrics on most of Vital Signs.

The main difference between the albums is the keyboard-heavy production of When Seconds Count, which makes everything sound lighter than it is. The track sequencing also contributes to the "pop" sentiment, as the front half of the cd is noticably more pop than the rock-heavy second half. If you resequence the album a bit to bring a bit more rock back to the front half, and bring up the guitars and lower the keyboards, you have an album that would sound considerably heavier. There are even live versions of Jimi Jamison playing Is This Love, with a pretty good edge to the song that tones the pop sound down quite a bit. It's amazing the effect that production/mix and sequencing can have on the way you perceive an album.