Would they have been hit's with Bickler on vocals?

[Journey/Survivor]

Over on the Journey forum there's a thread that I started about AOR singers. One member disputed my list of "hit" songs that Survivor did with Dave Bickler on vocals. But that's not the point of this thread though.

My question for my fellow Survivor fans is this, if Dave Bickler had been the lead vocalist on "I can't Hold Back" "High On You" and "The Search Is Over" back in 1984-1985, would those have been hit songs on the radio?

I think that they would have been, although maybe not as big of hits?

As some of the rest of you have said in the past, I would love to hear any demos that the band may have recorded for the Vital Signs album that may have had Bickler on vocals!

[Joe Vana]

Over on the Journey forum there's a thread that I started about AOR singers. One member disputed my list of "hit" songs that Survivor did with Dave Bickler on vocals. But that's not the point of this thread though.

My question for my fellow Survivor fans is this, if Dave Bickler had been the lead vocalist on "I can't Hold Back" "High On You" and "The Search Is Over" back in 1984-1985, would those have been hit songs on the radio?

I think that they would have been, although maybe not as big of hits?

As some of the rest of you have said in the past, I would love to hear any demos that the band may have recorded for the Vital Signs album that may have had Bickler on vocals!

In my opinion....No.

FS and JP wrote the songs for those singers with those guys in mind....They were incredibly talented singers, and FS and JP took advantage of their strengths...just as I say this....Tiger would never have been as big with Jamo doing the original....meaning Vital Signs may have never happened....to the extent of budget and fan base....too many variables....but I believe both guys did their particular catalogue of material better than anyone else would have....

Just my opinion....

JV

[jrnyman28]

There is no way of telling. Not only would the songs have a different voice, they might have been sung differently altogether. It could have worked, but it might not have. It is a big IF to assume the song would be exactly the same just with a different voice. However, IF the songs were exactly the same except for the voice than I DO think they would have still been successful...they are strong songs lyrically/melodically.

[MarcelJordan]

I think if Dave was on vocals, the songs arguably may not have been that big. Yes, as much as it hurts me to say it. Reason being pop had started to emerge. That being said, Can't Hold Back could be an exception. I think CHB would have reached the top 5, as its more of a Rock tune and Dave's vocals are more suited to that genre.

One more thing, I remember JS or FS mentioned that the songs were written for Dave. Hmmm.

[Journey/Survivor]

There is no way of telling. Not only would the songs have a different voice, they might have been sung differently altogether. It could have worked, but it might not have. It is a big IF to assume the song would be exactly the same just with a different voice. However, IF the songs were exactly the same except for the voice than I DO think they would have still been successful...they are strong songs lyrically/melodically.

Normally I would agree with that. Except, as Marcel mentioned in the post after yours, Peterik has said that the songs were written with Dave Bickler in mind. And there may or may-not be demos that had been recorded with DB on vocals.

I do know however that I Can't Hold Back was written after Jimi Jamison joined the band. It was also arranged differently on the finished product than it was first written because Ron Nevison recomended the arrangement change when they were in the studio.

[bulldog]

I spent the day listening to Eye Of The Tiger and Caught In The Game cds and I must say the whole band played much harder and better on CITG.

Dave wasn't very good on the ballads but he could rock . Eye Of The Tiger cd wasn't recorded very well or loud enough CITG I thought was much better.

I think Jimi had a better range and a much more urgent voice that was best suited for radio. The music behind Jimi was just that more passionate melodic melodies that suited his voice.

Dave was more raw and his voice wasn't always clear to understand all the lyrics but the music was more powerful and heavy.

If Stallone didn't have Rocky 3 would Survivor have broken out ? I am not so sure .
Could Eye Of The Tiger still have been big with Jimi on vocals ? I think so yes with the movie and the way things were back then. I personally would have loved Jimi to be on CITG .

The hit machine was with Jimi and the style of the power ballad that is what made Survivor . I don't think the hits could have been as big with Dave.. Too Hot To Sleep was awesome but they should have kept the sound that made them the money and the radio and video success. Just my opinion.

[Eyeof]

I perfer all three of those songs with Dave on Vocals.....there are some really good boots out there.....Dave makes "The Search Is Over" rock and he really makes "High On You" worith listening to...as someone said, I've read where JP said most of that stuff was written and even demod with Dave...

Also, saying that Dave can't handle a Ballad, is about the dumbest thing I've heard...See "Every Since the World Began", "Light of a Thousand Smiles", "I Never Stopped Loving You" and "Santa Anna Winds"....

Maybe he couldn't hanlde material like "Is This Love", but who would want to...

[MarcelJordan]

I perfer all three of those songs with Dave on Vocals.....there are some really good boots out there.....Dave makes "The Search Is Over" rock and he really makes "High On You" worith listening to...as someone said, I've read where JP said most of that stuff was written and even demod with Dave...

Also, saying that Dave can't handle a Ballad, is about the dumbest thing I've heard...See "Every Since the World Began", "Light of a Thousand Smiles", "I Never Stopped Loving You" and "Santa Anna Winds"....

Maybe he couldn't hanlde material like "Is This Love", but who would want to...

Game, Set, MATCH!

With regards to ESTWB, Dave's version is stellar! I get all choked up, EVERYTIME.

[Joe Vana]

I perfer all three of those songs with Dave on Vocals.....there are some really good boots out there.....Dave makes "The Search Is Over" rock and he really makes "High On You" worith listening to...as someone said, I've read where JP said most of that stuff was written and even demod with Dave...

Also, saying that Dave can't handle a Ballad, is about the dumbest thing I've heard...See "Every Since the World Began", "Light of a Thousand Smiles", "I Never Stopped Loving You" and "Santa Anna Winds"....

Maybe he couldn't hanlde material like "Is This Love", but who would want to...

I agree completely...

Dave did a great job with the ballads he did on his albums...

And I read in a previous post that someone thought Jimi had a higher range than Dave.....That is completely false...I have had to sing parts they both have sang, and Jimi had a great range back in the day, but not anywhere near as high as Dave...higher does not mean better mind you, just pointing out that technically Dave did have a higher range than Jimi....

However, singing from the chest I preferred Jimi, and all the high flyer stuff I give to Dave....just my opinion.....

JV

[MarcelJordan]

just pointing out that technically Dave did have a higher range than Jimi

However, singing from the chest I preferred Jimi, and all the high flyer stuff I give to Dave....just my opinion.....

JV

I agree here very much. Jimi it HAS to be said, has the Edge with his Power vocals. Meanwhile, if you compare Survivor Live in Japan '85, JJ doesn't go through the higher notes, that Bickler can with the tune "Im not that man anymore" as an example. Alas, not heard a live version of Bickler doing INTMA.

[survivorfan2005]

I wonder if they would've been hits if Robin was the lead vocalist back in the day instead of him being in MSG.... I think he does a great job on the hits both ballads and the rockers..

what do you think?

[IngoK]

I don't think it would be a big difference those days if they had Dave, Jimi or even Robin singin Eye of the Tiger. A lot of promotion came from the movie and the song was a "self-runner".

But I have doubts that the Band would had more/the same success with Robin on the other Albums.

Frankly spoken I cannot imagine how Caught in the Game would sound with Jimi on vocals same as Dave on Vital Signs. Both are classics for me simple as they are now.

[MarcelJordan]

A lot of promotion came from the movie and the song was a "self-runner".

When I heard Eye for the first time and the 2nd and 3rd (on the radio), I did not know it was from a movie. The tune is magical WITHOUT the movie. Dave has a hold on that one and it stayed no.1 for so long. It was so good that they got a grammy for the VOCALS in particular for it. That in itself is telling.

I would agree that it would have been a hit nonetheless with the either JJ or Robin, but not as far reaching like we already know.

As far as my memory serves, on the US Billboard charts, Eye was on top for 6 weeks and if not mistaken, on its way down, stayed at no. 3 for 5 weeks!

[silvergirl66]

Well I was crazy about the band before they were really big with Tiger. I heard songs from Premonition on the radio, Poor Man's Son and Summer Nights, and I fell in love with the voice first. I didn't have MTV, just listened to the radio alot. This band had something special back then. Tiger came out and made them famous like they should have been, they rocked!

[jrnyman28]

Well I was crazy about the band before they were really big with Tiger. I heard songs from Premonition on the radio, Poor Man's Son and Summer Nights, and I fell in love with the voice first. I didn't have MTV, just listened to the radio alot. This band had something special back then. Tiger came out and made them famous like they should have been, they rocked!

I am envious of the fans that got into the band before EOTT. Knowing a band while they are fighting to make it and then seeing them achieve their goals is cool. It brings you even closer to the band. Besides, since I didn't know them until EOTT it felt like the rug was pulled out with Dave leaving. And the biggest "history" for me was the Jimi era. I thought that had to be the best era until I FINALLY dug into the Bickler-era material and I can honestly say that while I have the most memories attached to Jimi's stuff, Dave's is far more appealing for me! But those longtime fans got it all AND the memories to go with it!

[Eyeof]

I never saw Rocky or Rocky II until I heard Eye of the Tiger and just had to see Rocky III...I went to the movie because of the song...

[Eyeof]

same with the Karate Kid... and Rocky IV to an extent, but by then I loved the movies as well....

[Slander]

same with the Karate Kid... and Rocky IV to an extent, but by then I loved the movies as well....

Hey Eye,

It's interesting that both JJ and Frankie were not BIG fans of The Moment Of Truth. Bill Conti wrote that song.

[Journey/Survivor]

I perfer all three of those songs with Dave on Vocals.....there are some really good boots out there.....Dave makes "The Search Is Over" rock and he really makes "High On You" worith listening to...as someone said, I've read where JP said most of that stuff was written and even demod with Dave...

Also, saying that Dave can't handle a Ballad, is about the dumbest thing I've heard...See "Every Since the World Began", "Light of a Thousand Smiles", "I Never Stopped Loving You" and "Santa Anna Winds"....

Maybe he couldn't hanlde material like "Is This Love", but who would want to...

I definitely do NOT agree with someone saying that Dave Bickler can't sing a ballad. I do however prefer Jamison on ballads.

I have always thought that Jamison would have sounded better on "I Never stopped Loving You," and I do prefer Jamison on ESTWB and INTMA.

Bickler sounds awesome though on "Innocence Of Love" and "The Love We Never made." And DB sounds awesome on both the quiet and loud parts of "Whole Towns Talkin."

[Journey/Survivor]

I perfer all three of those songs with Dave on Vocals.....there are some really good boots out there.....Dave makes "The Search Is Over" rock and he really makes "High On You" worith listening to...as someone said, I've read where JP said most of that stuff was written and even demod with Dave...

Also, saying that Dave can't handle a Ballad, is about the dumbest thing I've heard...See "Every Since the World Began", "Light of a Thousand Smiles", "I Never Stopped Loving You" and "Santa Anna Winds"....

Maybe he couldn't hanlde material like "Is This Love", but who would want to...

I agree completely...

Dave did a great job with the ballads he did on his albums...

And I read in a previous post that someone thought Jimi had a higher range than Dave.....That is completely false...I have had to sing parts they both have sang, and Jimi had a great range back in the day, but not anywhere near as high as Dave...higher does not mean better mind you, just pointing out that technically Dave did have a higher range than Jimi....

However, singing from the chest I preferred Jimi, and all the high flyer stuff I give to Dave....just my opinion.....

JV

Right. Even though I have a slight preference for Jamison's singing, Bickler did have a higher range.

I'll say this, back in the mid 90's I would see Jimi and his band perform TSIO in concert and Jimi would sometimes have a hard time hitting the notes on the line "I was always reaching." I'd see Survivor perform TSIO with Dave on vocals and he'd hit those notes every time.

[Journey/Survivor]

just pointing out that technically Dave did have a higher range than Jimi

However, singing from the chest I preferred Jimi, and all the high flyer stuff I give to Dave....just my opinion.....

JV

I agree here very much. Jimi it HAS to be said, has the Edge with his Power vocals. Meanwhile, if you compare Survivor Live in Japan '85, JJ doesn't go through the higher notes, that Bickler can with the tune "Im not that man anymore" as an example. Alas, not heard a live version of Bickler doing INTMA.

I have a couple of shows where Survivor did INTMA with Jimi on vocals in the mid-1980's, he did a great job. Although Jimi didn't hit the high note on the word "changed" as well as Dave did on the EOTT album.

I know your not in the United States, so that may make it harder for you to find certain albums, but there's a live version of INTMA with Jamison on vocals on the Survivor "Extended Versions" CD.

[Journey/Survivor]

A lot of promotion came from the movie and the song was a "self-runner".

When I heard Eye for the first time and the 2nd and 3rd (on the radio), I did not know it was from a movie. The tune is magical WITHOUT the movie. Dave has a hold on that one and it stayed no.1 for so long. It was so good that they got a grammy for the VOCALS in particular for it. That in itself is telling.

I would agree that it would have been a hit nonetheless with the either JJ or Robin, but not as far reaching like we already know.

As far as my memory serves, on the US Billboard charts, Eye was on top for 6 weeks and if not mistaken, on its way down, stayed at no. 3 for 5 weeks!

Interestingly, I have a book of Billboard number 1 songs from 1955-1985, and it also lists the top 5 songs for each week, and it says that on the week of September 4th 1982 Steve Miller's song "Abracadbra" moved into the #1 spot on the chart which knocked EOTT down to #2. But then on the week of September 11th 1982 Chicago's "Hard To Say I'm Sorry" moved into the #1 spot. But that week EOTT stayed at #2, and "Abracadabra" slid down to #3. On the week of October 2nd 1982 EOTT still charted at #4, although "Abracadbra" had then moved back into the #2 spot with "Hard To Say I'm Sorry" moving down to #3.

There are very few songs in history that stayed on the Billboard chart for as many weeks in a row as EOTT did.

[Journey/Survivor]

Well I was crazy about the band before they were really big with Tiger. I heard songs from Premonition on the radio, Poor Man's Son and Summer Nights, and I fell in love with the voice first. I didn't have MTV, just listened to the radio alot. This band had something special back then. Tiger came out and made them famous like they should have been, they rocked!

I was ten years old when EOTT was the #1 song on the chart. I had already been a huge fan of the Rocky movies since I was about 6 to 7 years old. so I went to see Rocky III the day it hit the theaters. As soon as EOTT started (I had never heard it before then) two things jumped out at me, the riff, and the sound of Dave Bickler's voice which sounded unusual to me, but I liked it.

A friend of mine who's a big Survivor fan and who is also 3 years older than me says that he remembers hearing "Poor Man's Son" on the radio before EOTT was on the radio. I was listening to the radio as early as 1981, but I don't recall having ever heard anything by Survivor untill EOTT.

I remember how excited I was when Survivor was on Solid Gold for EOTT. I watched it, but that was a few months before I got my first VCR, so I was never able to record it. I've have them on Solid Gold for How Much Love, but I've never even seen them on Solid Gold for I Can't Hold Back.

[MarcelJordan]

I never saw Rocky or Rocky II until I heard Eye of the Tiger and just had to see Rocky III...I went to the movie because of the song...

Ditto! But for me, I saw the movie on VHS , because its run ended in my town. Just a bit of weird trivia, when the movie was out they introduced Mr. T. as "Clubber Lang as Mr. T" LOL!

[MarcelJordan]

just pointing out that technically Dave did have a higher range than Jimi

However, singing from the chest I preferred Jimi, and all the high flyer stuff I give to Dave....just my opinion.....

JV

I agree here very much. Jimi it HAS to be said, has the Edge with his Power vocals. Meanwhile, if you compare Survivor Live in Japan '85, JJ doesn't go through the higher notes, that Bickler can with the tune "Im not that man anymore" as an example. Alas, not heard a live version of Bickler doing INTMA.

I have a couple of shows where Survivor did INTMA with Jimi on vocals in the mid-1980's, he did a great job. Although Jimi didn't hit the high note on the word "changed" as well as Dave did on the EOTT album.

I know your not in the United States, so that may make it harder for you to find certain albums, but there's a live version of INTMA with Jamison on vocals on the Survivor "Extended Versions" CD.

Tks for that info. Yep, I can only depend on some kind souls who send me some Survivor stuff. Love to check out the INTMA JJ extended one.

With regards to your preference for JJ, I respect that very much.

[Journey/Survivor]

just pointing out that technically Dave did have a higher range than Jimi

However, singing from the chest I preferred Jimi, and all the high flyer stuff I give to Dave....just my opinion.....

JV

I agree here very much. Jimi it HAS to be said, has the Edge with his Power vocals. Meanwhile, if you compare Survivor Live in Japan '85, JJ doesn't go through the higher notes, that Bickler can with the tune "Im not that man anymore" as an example. Alas, not heard a live version of Bickler doing INTMA.

I have a couple of shows where Survivor did INTMA with Jimi on vocals in the mid-1980's, he did a great job. Although Jimi didn't hit the high note on the word "changed" as well as Dave did on the EOTT album.

I know your not in the United States, so that may make it harder for you to find certain albums, but there's a live version of INTMA with Jamison on vocals on the Survivor "Extended Versions" CD.

Tks for that info. Yep, I can only depend on some kind souls who send me some Survivor stuff. Love to check out the INTMA JJ extended one.

With regards to your preference for JJ, I respect that very much.

Don't get me wrong, I love Bickler's singing too. He's on my top 5 favorite singers list.

[MarcelJordan]

just pointing out that technically Dave did have a higher range than Jimi

However, singing from the chest I preferred Jimi, and all the high flyer stuff I give to Dave....just my opinion.....

JV

I agree here very much. Jimi it HAS to be said, has the Edge with his Power vocals. Meanwhile, if you compare Survivor Live in Japan '85, JJ doesn't go through the higher notes, that Bickler can with the tune "Im not that man anymore" as an example. Alas, not heard a live version of Bickler doing INTMA.

I have a couple of shows where Survivor did INTMA with Jimi on vocals in the mid-1980's, he did a great job. Although Jimi didn't hit the high note on the word "changed" as well as Dave did on the EOTT album.

I know your not in the United States, so that may make it harder for you to find certain albums, but there's a live version of INTMA with Jamison on vocals on the Survivor "Extended Versions" CD.

Tks for that info. Yep, I can only depend on some kind souls who send me some Survivor stuff. Love to check out the INTMA JJ extended one.

With regards to your preference for JJ, I respect that very much.

Don't get me wrong, I love Bickler's singing too. He's on my top 5 favorite singers list.

Nice!

[Eyeof]

Slander,

I'm never been sure why Frankie is so down on "The Moment of Truth"...I don't know if it's a ego deal, as it's the one song they did he didn't write, but I like the song...it's great mix of the genious of Bill Conti, mixed with Frankie's rough and tough guitar mix..

He said on the message board years ago, that it was a big mistake recording it, but you know, as well as I, promoted correctly with that movie, it would have been a monster hit...I'm not sure what happened there...

Don't get me wrong, it's not their best song, but it's better than say "Is this Love" for example...

[Eyeof]

Also, i think you guys would have to agree that "Seconds Away" is a much better song with Dave's vox...although I like the version better alltogether....

[Red13JoePa]

Slander,

I'm never been sure why Frankie is so down on "The Moment of Truth"...I don't know if it's a ego deal, as it's the one song they did he didn't write, but I like the song...it's great mix of the genious of Bill Conti, mixed with Frankie's rough and tough guitar mix..

He said on the message board years ago, that it was a big mistake recording it, but you know, as well as I, promoted correctly with that movie, it would have been a monster hit...I'm not sure what happened there...

Don't get me wrong, it's not their best song, but it's better than say "Is this Love" for example...

Better than both Is This Love? and High On You.

Moment Of Truth would've been a MONSTER with more guitars added. Seems like Conti wrote, Peterik arranged around hefty keyboards.