Over at BalkTalk....

[conversationpc]

Monker in all the years I've posted at the same places you have, you've never "gone with the flow".

That's what I was thinking, hence my "sheeple" comment.

[Carrington]

There are only a few people here that seem capable of carrying out a ‘reasoned’ debate. Almost everybody else is already convinced they are right and that anybody who disagrees with them is a moron who must be converted to their cause at all costs.

Because the MO is to bring up the "tapegate" argument and the bashing begins because of that fact (believed or not), the originator of all this is the band itself, which has been obviously absent on all of this......

BackTalk has had a LOT of criticism recently from MR members for its apparent sugar coated threads and ‘blind’ support of the band. It also gets criticised for censoring certain threads and posts.

Again, thats all it has become (or ever was), rah, rah cheerleading, cliqish highschool groups....that heavy handed, delete damn near anything that seems Perry oriented or out of the normal, Augeri is "awesome" and the band is wonderful stuff.

There are as many intelligent, rational posters on BT as there are on MR.

Agreed, John from Boston comes to mind......ha always has great posts....

As to the censoring, most of that seems to be to remove blatantly argumentative, inflammatory posts that are not productive. Bear in mind that BT is an extension of Journey’s official website, whose main function is to promote the band. Therefore ‘some’ negative comments (usually expressed in an aggressive, confrontational manner) are also removed, or the posters are asked to tone down their comments.

I disagree there, go try to say most anything about Perry, even as much in the "new/old" created forum (precious time) for "Journey Oldtimers" that are fans because of him, and in most cases it's bashed or deleted....

Each forum has its place and they should be allowed to co-exist without resorting to ‘us’ and ‘them’ mentalities.

Sorry to tell you, but MR is already considered "the Dark side" (insert spooky laugh *here*) by the clique........thier mentality is grade school at best........

[heardonthestreet]

They need Perryheads as moderators over at backtalk. The Perryheads would go out of their way to be fair. It's just our nature. The truth would set them free.

[A Fire Inside]

The Perryheads would go out of their way to be fair. It's just our nature.

LOL.

By the way, I hardly ever see BT delete something just because it has to do with Perry... seems like they delete things because certain posters always tear him down within Perry threads. They should get rid of those posters, but they don't. Not really different from this forum in ways...

[Monker]

Monker in all the years I've posted at the same places you have, you've never "gone with the flow".

What I mean is, I always try to stay within the bounds of what the forum allows. For example, in the newsgroup, I could do and say anything I wanted, and I did...without any restriction. At BT, I basicaly don't post anything unless it is to answer some question, or to 'rah rah' the band.

A few examples for this forum: Andrew has always discouraged personal attacks. He has always asked people to 'get over' the Perry vs. Augeri, or old vs. new Journey, debates. He has repeatedly asked people to stop bringing BT talk over here and to stop bashing BT. And, there is the 'taking the piss' stuff. He has done this to the point of kicking people off and even closing the forum. So, I've tried, mostly, to stay away from those things - cuz that is what the owner of the forum wanted.

None of the above seems to matter here any longer. On almost EVERY thread somebody is insulting and personaly attacking others. So, why shouldn't I? It seems to be allowed now. In almost EVERY thread there is at least some type of Perry vs. Augeri or old vs. new Journey comment. So, why shouldn't I go there? BT has become a topic of choice here nowadays...I have my share of BT complaints too, which I could go on and on about sometime. I could do the 'taking the piss' thing as good as Joe, but that isn't something I feel like doing right now.

IMO, this place has no boundaries any longer, or at least the boundaries Andrew has tried to set in the past are no longer relavent, for whatever reason. So, it's time to reconsider how I approach this forum...and I am going to go with the flow of what others are being allowed to do...Cuz, if they are allowed to do it, then I believe everybody should be allowed, including me.

[whocares]

then you don't really want peace or anything else on this board, NOW. You're willing to wait to see if it comes around again, then you'll be peaceful?

You can't have it both ways all the time. If you wnat peace, then step up and do something GOOD, instead of being like everyone else. Tha Monker I've read thousands of times on various places was hardly ever a follower, and almost always tried to lead.

Maybe i'm getting too old and grey these days and my memory is slipping, but If you want change bad enough, then you have to do something about it. Just because everyone else flings shit, doesn't make it right for anyone, me included. though at times I really go out of my way to be good and bite my tongue. (everyone should try that sometime.) It hurts but eventually it's makes for a better place.

[Monker]

This MR site, for all its pretence of being a forum for uncensored, reasoned debate and free speech, has in fact become a battleground for mud slinging, name calling, foul language, threats and polarised arguments for the sake of argument.

Yep. It's not so much about 'discussion'...It's about throwing mud at each other, and Journey, and hoping some of the mud will stick.

Unfortunately, the sensible posters here (and there are some) are being drowned out by those with more extreme views and more aggressive personalities.

Yep...A 'sensible' poster should be able to see that this is all 'nonsense' and would walk away. This is why I say this will NOT end. Let's say the extreme happens and Journey retires...We will still have this forum talking about why Journey retired, how much Dean's crusade affected the decision, and on and on and on. That is what the people of that 'extreme' view WANT to talk about.

There are as many intelligent, rational posters on BT as there are on MR. But instead of searching through the mud slinging and insults for the nuggets you have to search through a little sugar. Not a great hardship.

Correct...and it's less of a 'hardship' to search through BT for something worthwhile then it is to search through the BS that is on this forum.

As to the censoring, most of that seems to be to remove blatantly argumentative, inflammatory posts that are not productive.

Not always. That is the problem with BT. Some 'rules' are not enforced the same way for some people who are friendly with the moderators. I believe they also look at other forums to spot potential 'trouble-makers' and their posts are looked at more closely and that person is scritinzed more often.

Bear in mind that BT is an extension of Journey’s official website, whose main function is to promote the band. Therefore ‘some’ negative comments (usually expressed in an aggressive, confrontational manner) are also removed, or the posters are asked to tone down their comments. Again this is not unusual on forums of this nature and, while it may not appeal to some of the more outspoken members on MR it doesn’t justify the bashing that it gets here.

I agree with that...But, BT goes beyond that to the point where they indirectly discourage constructive criticism of the band. The moderators will say they will allow criticism as long as it is within their rules...But, the actions I stated above discourages it and it does not happen as often as it could, and IMO, should. The people who would like to offer constructive discussion either do not talk about it at all, or they go to other forums.

Each forum has its place and they should be allowed to co-exist without resorting to ‘us’ and ‘them’ mentalities.

I agree...Especialy when it gets to the point of a forum member making personal attacks towards a member of the other forum. That should not be allowed by either side of this.

[bionic]

several members decided to attack Jeremey. They insist that he's "making a living" off of Journey's music. Also, they can't believe that he had the audacity to say that Journey shouldn't be on tour because of Augeri's throat. Well, here's the deal. Now that the use of LEAD vocal tracks has been exposed they have 3 options. 1. Go back to the tapes...they sound better than Augeri singing like he's going through puberty. 2. Continue to sing live and get absolutely terrible reviews. In other words, embarrass yourselves several times a week. 3. If possible, stop the tour. I'm not sure of the legal implications, but if it's possible stop the tour. Def Leppard can continue with someone else or alone. 75% of the people are there to see them anyway.
Getting back on point, it really pissed me off to see Jeremey attacked over at the cult message board. He has been nothing but fair and objective. But they can't see that. They're like fucking teenagers going through peer pressure. They're afraid they might not be in their little circle anymore if they say something about the band. MOST of them are spineless fucks who are doing MORE damage to the band than they think others are. Letting Journey tour around the country making asses of themselves is gonna do damage that may be beyond repair. For the sake of the band that message board should be shut down. Those people are fucked up.

Just got blasted on BT because i said you have the right to complain if you dont enjoy a show,lots of people on the Scranton review thread were saying Steve's voice was not to good,and the BT people were unhappy as you have to enjoy evan if the show sucks or you are destroying the band it seems?? Check it out in the Dixie Highway

And what did you expect? BT is Journey's house; If you go there and post something viewed as negative, whether right or wrong, what do you expect is going to happen? If someone came into my house and said something negative, even if right, they should expect to be tossed out on their ear, why should it be any different in Journey's house?

You misunderstand, my point is if you attend a show and do not enjoy it and say so on the board.This is just an opinion,does not mean you hate the band and want to destroy them.Same as some people said they did not like Generations(i did) just an opinion.

[heardonthestreet]

Monker, you have trashed Perry in every way, shape or form possible in any forum you attend.

You spout off on how a forum should be run and break all the rules yourself. I think that you are just frustrated that you have all this Journey history compiled and can't find a forum that will let you run off at the mouth so you run down the forums that give you space to bellyache.

No one is giving Journey crap that they don't deserve. Most of it is opinion and under discussion here and all you do is bitch about how this forum is run. Start one of your own. Oh right! Tried that and failed miserably, right?

[TheShangrila]

So the old double standard rears it's ugly head again..

And you people haven't trashed Augeri?

whatever

[Liz22562]

"Most of it is opinion and under discussion?" Are you kidding?

Thread after thread: "Facts are being posted", the bootlegs are FACT and you still don't believe it"...over and over.

Interesting.

[Rockindeano]

Monker, you have trashed Perry in every way, shape or form possible in any forum you attend.

You spout off on how a forum should be run and break all the rules yourself. I think that you are just frustrated that you have all this Journey history compiled and can't find a forum that will let you run off at the mouth so you run down the forums that give you space to bellyache.

No one is giving Journey crap that they don't deserve. Most of it is opinion and under discussion here and all you do is bitch about how this forum is run. Start one of your own. Oh right! Tried that and failed miserably, right?

I don't know how anyone could disagree with this post.

HOTS, I can't believe it, this post is perfect.

The only thing I would add is i don't think we need the entire page full of this. I think this is what pisses Liz off.

[heardonthestreet]

So the old double standard rears it's ugly head again..

And you people haven't trashed Augeri?

whatever

........................My opinion again! Augeri deserves it.

[heardonthestreet]

"Most of it is opinion and under discussion?" Are you kidding?

Thread after thread: "Facts are being posted", the bootlegs are FACT and you still don't believe it"...over and over.

Interesting.

...............................Just the facts, Ma"am. Glad you found it interesting.

[Liz22562]

You know Deano, it is not that I am 'pissed off' at all. Would just like to see some new discussion - other than the lip synch situation and who is right and who is wrong.

Would like to see this forum get back to its normal self - for whatever normal may be anymore.

[conversationpc]

You know Deano, it is not that I am 'pissed off' at all. Would just like to see some new discussion - other than the lip synch situation and who is right and who is wrong.

Would like to see this forum get back to its normal self - for whatever normal may be anymore.

I didn't even know about these forums before this whole thing hit the fan. I probably would've left and not come back at all unless I knew some of the people from other forums, most notably Stu (RossValoryRocks) and Dave (jrnyman28).

[Moon Beam]

You know Deano, it is not that I am 'pissed off' at all. Would just like to see some new discussion - other than the lip synch situation and who is right and who is wrong.

Would like to see this forum get back to its normal self - for whatever normal may be anymore.

I didn't even know about these forums before this whole thing hit the fan. I probably would've left and not come back at all unless I knew some of the people from other forums, most notably Stu (RossValoryRocks) and Dave (jrnyman28).

Well I'm glad you decided to join us conversationpc.

RVR and Jrnyman28 both seem like cool fellas
to me but then again I like something about almost
everyone here.
Five years ago I would have never guessed there
were so many Journey fans on the net.

[Monker]

Monker, you have trashed Perry in every way, shape or form possible in any forum you attend.

Ah, I feel so bad that you are offended. Perry doesn't deserve to be in a band like Journey. He hasn't deserved it since 1985 or so.

You spout off on how a forum should be run and break all the rules yourself.

You're wrong. I haven't broken any rules here. I haven't broken any rules at BT. I haven't broken any rules on the mailing list in a very, very long time. On VH1, and the newsgroup, there are/were no rules...and the rules here now seem to also be breakable.

I think that you are just frustrated that you have all this Journey history compiled and can't find a forum that will let you run off at the mouth so you run down the forums that give you space to bellyache.

Nope...forums allow the lowest and loudest common denominators to have a voice. You are a perfect example. So, you either have to join the pond scum, or leave the forum. That is the way it has always been in forums where rules do not exist or are not enforced.

No one is giving Journey crap that they don't deserve.

It's gone a LOT further then that.

Most of it is opinion and under discussion here

And, it is opinion that is being preached as fact. But, of course, that is constantly ignored...it is irrelevant in a place where 'discussion' is taking a backseat to political bullshit.

and all you do is bitch about how this forum is run. Start one of your own. Oh right! Tried that and failed miserably, right?

Wrong. I started the Journey mailing list, almost fifteen years ago, and it still exists today. I helped start the Journey newsgroup, which will probably ALWAYS exist. I also started the first AOL forum...and a forum on Delphi.

What you are talking about is the experiment I did trying to separate the Perry and Journey discussion into two forums...and THAT failed miserably, just as it did on VH1, just as it did here.

Why do I not start a new one? Cuz I have no desire to attempt to 'moderate' a discussion where people like you and Dean and others are so willing to see how far they can push the rules, or intentionaly break them, to see how much they can get away with. I'd rather be the person giving the moderator a headache then the moderator with the headache.

[Monker]

Would like to see this forum get back to its normal self - for whatever normal may be anymore.

Ain't gonna happen. Before this, it was Dean vs. the Perry fans. That did not end until he found some other crusade to go on. Now it is his tape thing. Next it will be Schon's afro was fake back in the 70's. Or, Gregg's monster was a banana, or some crap like that...anything that will have a few followers to enable him Then the forum will have another crusade to go on for months and months. That is how this forum has been for a VERY long time.

[TheShangrila]

Ah the opinion of one like an asshole...everyone's got them...

I guess someone deserves slander, labeling, and every evil thing under the sun cuz one or a few people were personally wronged by the man, and maybe just maybe cuz you or those few people say so...yes you are right...what again has he done to you personally? Did he leave your favorite band? Did he admit to not wanting to tour for you anymore? Did he call it quits saying he can't do it anymore? Did he, take on a life of his own without consulting you?

Or, was he accused of something without being convicted yet?

again, just an opinion, but whatever

So the old double standard rears it's ugly head again..

And you people haven't trashed Augeri?

whatever

........................My opinion again! Augeri deserves it.

[Monker]

I didn't even know about these forums before this whole thing hit the fan. I probably would've left and not come back at all unless I knew some of the people from other forums, most notably Stu (RossValoryRocks) and Dave (jrnyman28).

Stu was not active in these forums until the tape thing surfaced. Dave is less active now then he ever has been in the past.

so, take that for what it's worth.

[Argus]

I didn't even know about these forums before this whole thing hit the fan. I probably would've left and not come back at all unless I knew some of the people from other forums, most notably Stu (RossValoryRocks) and Dave (jrnyman28).

Stu was not active in these forums until the tape thing surfaced. Dave is less active now then he ever has been in the past.

so, take that for what it's worth.

Better watch that conspiracy stuff, Monker. You do know that everything you read on the Internet is true, right?

[RossValoryRocks]

You know Deano, it is not that I am 'pissed off' at all. Would just like to see some new discussion - other than the lip synch situation and who is right and who is wrong.

Would like to see this forum get back to its normal self - for whatever normal may be anymore.

I didn't even know about these forums before this whole thing hit the fan. I probably would've left and not come back at all unless I knew some of the people from other forums, most notably Stu (RossValoryRocks) and Dave (jrnyman28).

You make me all warm and fuzzy

I only come back now to try and teach some logic and debating skills...and to get a daily laugh from the sheer idiocy that seems to flow from here...

Though having a familiar face or 2 around is good too!