Response to MartyMoffatt's post

[scruncho]

Marty,

I enjoyed your post in the "All Pomp and NO performance" thread. You are one of the few on here who has made a convincing, eloquent and above all, respectful argument in this discussion. But I disagree with your opinion and here's why:

First, I won't argue with your "stats". I think you are probably right in saying most of the people at the shows probably don't know a thing about the recent allegations and there is probably only a small percentage for whom this is a seriously contentious issue.

Second, let's address the "evidence". Obviously, I don’t think Journey will be charged with any criminal act and I think the chances of them being sued in civil court for money damages are probably pretty remote. I think what's important to realize though, is like any other "entertainment" business, Journey is ultimately reliant on the general public for their livelihood, through the purchase of CDs, DVDs and concert tickets. So, in essence, they DO need to prove to the public that they offer a "product" worth spending money on. The question is: Do they at this point?

Let's evaluate the “evidence”. The bootlegs are in fact poor quality and most likely illegal recordings. In spite of that, my opinion is that the quality and illegality of the actual recordings do not disguise the poor condition of Steve's voice. I think you can listen to any given recording of any hypothetical live show and while the recording quality may be poor and the singer may hit a few bum notes here and there, you can usually tell whether the singing is of quality or not. My opinion is that there have been numerous RECENT recordings of Journey that show the true nature of Steve A's vocal condition and I can't come to any conclusion other than the guy's voice is simply shot. Is it his fault, absolutely not – but it is what it is – there’s no way around that now.

I think the guys in the band realized this a while back and unfortunately, they seem to have decided that using pre-recorded vocal tracks was the answer. After hearing all the “evidence" offered so far, it seems to me that while it may not be 100% incontrovertible and irrefutable, it not only passes the test of "more likely than not", it shatters it and goes well beyond proving that if Steve didn't totally lip-synch many shows, he came pretty darn close. I think they as a band got caught and can no longer afford to risk that practice anymore.

So how many have taken an honest look at the evidence? Probably not many, as you pointed out - maybe 10% of the concert-goers (and even THAT number might be high). Many people in this forum probably have heard some of it. Sure, many can simply decide that Journey no longer offers a product worth spending money on and they won't buy tickets to the show. However, I think there is a separate, moral issue here. Just like with any "consumer" product, doesn't the general public have a responsibility to lodge complaints when they feel they are being taken for? Don't we have a responsibility to expose fraud? Is it ok to be duped if you don't know you're being duped? Is it fair for concert-goers to be fooled into thinking they are hearing live, when in fact they are hearing memorex and just can't tell the difference? Realize I’m not talking about backing synth tracks, extraneous percussion sounds or even harmony vocals. I’m referring to what is supposed to be a frontman singing the main lead vocal part but is lip-synching using pre-recorded tracks instead.

So the last issue you mention is the non-response from the band. I would agree with you that their legal counsel would advise them not to address this issue publicly just yet. My guess is they will spend some time devising an exit strategy and try and fade away, at least for a while as they regroup with either a fully-recovered Steve A. (most likely), a new singer (less likely) or Steve Perry (sorry guys, ain't gonna happen). Either way, you are correct in that they are not necessarily legally obligated to address this but just like the recordings I mentioned earlier, Journey needs to know that rightly or wrongly, people will consider this silent-treatment when they decide whether or not to buy Journey "stuff" from now on. It’s just a fact of life and I’m sure Journey knows this.

The saddest thing is that at this point, I think their future really is out of their hands. More people are talking about it, more radio stations are addressing it and ultimately the “stats” you cite will probably sway out of the band's favor and as unfortunate as it may be for them, their future as either a successful recording band or a club-level nostalgic act is already decided.

Here's the key point in all of this mess I've written. You say there is no incontrovertible proof one way or the other. The fact is, that decision is not up to you or me or any one person. Each individual will listen to the poor-quality, illegal (but probably genuine) recordings, they will read the newspaper reviews of shows like Raleigh, they will listen to their friends who went to previous shows and they will consider the silence of the band in (not) addressing the issue. Collectively as a world-wide audience, whatever all those things add up to will in fact be all THE PROOF they need to decide whether the Journey ends or continues.

Respectfully,
Scruncho

[MartyMoffatt]

Nice response. If more people put their points across in that fashion we'd all understand each other a lot better.

Using 'I think' and 'In my opinion' as a prefix to your arguments makes them stronger arguments and makes for a much healthier debate, and I respect those opinions more. What frustrates me on this Board is posters who state opinion as absolute fact and hope that if they say it loud enough and often enough then everybody else will accept it as fact.

My other reason for making the comments I did was to put some perspective on things. Because we frequent these message boards we all have a tendency to assume that we represent the entire record buying and concert going community. We don't. We represent a very small proportion of that community, and while it is not an insignificant proportion, we should understand that issues that are seemingly lifer or death dramas here are insignificant in many people's eyes outside of these boards.

Marty

[Liam]

I must say Scruncho (if that IS infact your birth-given name.LOL..j/k. Sorry I'm kinda drunk.) that was a VERY eloquent post. VERY tactful.
I don't think I could rationalize like that in a typing fashion to save my life.lol.
Laters,

[zino]

Scruncho,
Another ver good post, not attacking anybody just the facts, your thoughts and you disagreed with Marty without making him feel abused. Very well put and you too have made some great points.....afteranother week has passed reading the post here and the news of today of Augeri leaving the band for this tour ( I beleive he won't be back) it may seem that you may have nailed this issue on the head

[Abitaman]

Marty,

I enjoyed your post in the "All Pomp and NO performance" thread. You are one of the few on here who has made a convincing, eloquent and above all, respectful argument in this discussion. But I disagree with your opinion and here's why:

First, I won't argue with your "stats". I think you are probably right in saying most of the people at the shows probably don't know a thing about the recent allegations and there is probably only a small percentage for whom this is a seriously contentious issue.

Second, let's address the "evidence". Obviously, I don’t think Journey will be charged with any criminal act and I think the chances of them being sued in civil court for money damages are probably pretty remote. I think what's important to realize though, is like any other "entertainment" business, Journey is ultimately reliant on the general public for their livelihood, through the purchase of CDs, DVDs and concert tickets. So, in essence, they DO need to prove to the public that they offer a "product" worth spending money on. The question is: Do they at this point?

Let's evaluate the “evidence”. The bootlegs are in fact poor quality and most likely illegal recordings. In spite of that, my opinion is that the quality and illegality of the actual recordings do not disguise the poor condition of Steve's voice. I think you can listen to any given recording of any hypothetical live show and while the recording quality may be poor and the singer may hit a few bum notes here and there, you can usually tell whether the singing is of quality or not. My opinion is that there have been numerous RECENT recordings of Journey that show the true nature of Steve A's vocal condition and I can't come to any conclusion other than the guy's voice is simply shot. Is it his fault, absolutely not – but it is what it is – there’s no way around that now.

I think the guys in the band realized this a while back and unfortunately, they seem to have decided that using pre-recorded vocal tracks was the answer. After hearing all the “evidence" offered so far, it seems to me that while it may not be 100% incontrovertible and irrefutable, it not only passes the test of "more likely than not", it shatters it and goes well beyond proving that if Steve didn't totally lip-synch many shows, he came pretty darn close. I think they as a band got caught and can no longer afford to risk that practice anymore.

So how many have taken an honest look at the evidence? Probably not many, as you pointed out - maybe 10% of the concert-goers (and even THAT number might be high). Many people in this forum probably have heard some of it. Sure, many can simply decide that Journey no longer offers a product worth spending money on and they won't buy tickets to the show. However, I think there is a separate, moral issue here. Just like with any "consumer" product, doesn't the general public have a responsibility to lodge complaints when they feel they are being taken for? Don't we have a responsibility to expose fraud? Is it ok to be duped if you don't know you're being duped? Is it fair for concert-goers to be fooled into thinking they are hearing live, when in fact they are hearing memorex and just can't tell the difference? Realize I’m not talking about backing synth tracks, extraneous percussion sounds or even harmony vocals. I’m referring to what is supposed to be a frontman singing the main lead vocal part but is lip-synching using pre-recorded tracks instead.

So the last issue you mention is the non-response from the band. I would agree with you that their legal counsel would advise them not to address this issue publicly just yet. My guess is they will spend some time devising an exit strategy and try and fade away, at least for a while as they regroup with either a fully-recovered Steve A. (most likely), a new singer (less likely) or Steve Perry (sorry guys, ain't gonna happen). Either way, you are correct in that they are not necessarily legally obligated to address this but just like the recordings I mentioned earlier, Journey needs to know that rightly or wrongly, people will consider this silent-treatment when they decide whether or not to buy Journey "stuff" from now on. It’s just a fact of life and I’m sure Journey knows this.

The saddest thing is that at this point, I think their future really is out of their hands. More people are talking about it, more radio stations are addressing it and ultimately the “stats” you cite will probably sway out of the band's favor and as unfortunate as it may be for them, their future as either a successful recording band or a club-level nostalgic act is already decided.

Here's the key point in all of this mess I've written. You say there is no incontrovertible proof one way or the other. The fact is, that decision is not up to you or me or any one person. Each individual will listen to the poor-quality, illegal (but probably genuine) recordings, they will read the newspaper reviews of shows like Raleigh, they will listen to their friends who went to previous shows and they will consider the silence of the band in (not) addressing the issue. Collectively as a world-wide audience, whatever all those things add up to will in fact be all THE PROOF they need to decide whether the Journey ends or continues.

Respectfully,
Scruncho

Very well said
As for the moral issue, I could have had a problem with it. I don't think the abuse of the tapes are as wide spread as some believe. Lip the whole show? NO, Lipped every show, No. Had help every show? more than Likely. But that is not a problem, unless one makes it to be. I refuse to make this a problem. To me the issue is not lets go out and cheat the fans, it was more Augeri's voice is failing lets get him some help. Smartest thing to do? NO Should have had some time off, A year or so.
But they had a new cd, 30th anv. tour. Okay they had help. But should have stopped there, at the end of that tour. Whether or not they knew Augeri couldn't handle this year, I don't know, nor does anyone out side the band itself.
But the band needs to address this soon. Rumors are worse than the facts. And we DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS. We do not need to pretend we know it all.
Talk of a new singer or Perry coming back. Come on. Give Augeri the chance first. Let Deen split the singing to get them thru this tour, or Deen do it all, with Augeri recouping. Last resort, cancel the tour. As much as I would hate that, IT MAYBE BEST. Would hate not seeing them in Nashville in a few days, specially since the Biloxi show got cancelled last year cause of hurricane Katrina. But that is life. Journey needs to take care of Journey. And to do that they need to take care of their lead singer. Then they need to address their fans. Give some idea of what is happening.

I have defended Augeri and Journey thru this and will still. Some out there just look for any reason to slander the band. Until all is know, or as much as possible is know, and until Augeri is well, I will keep supporting him-ERIC