Has JOURNEY Jumped The Shark OR are Happier Days Ahead?

[The_Noble_Cause]

I will roll w/ the Boogie though, as such. Hell, even Gone Crazy would work.

Not as long as Ross is singing it.
Attendance always trails off when new material is played, but he damn near evacuated the entire venue.
I like the album version though, doesn't translate live.

[SteveForever]

I will roll w/ the Boogie though, as such. Hell, even Gone Crazy would work.

Not as long as Ross is singing it.
Attendance always trails off when new material is played, but he damn near evacuated the entire venue.
I like the album version though, doesn't translate live.

Sorry, but Gone Crazy is the worst song they have I hope JSS is practicing FITH and more. If you had smoked alot of weed and rode in on a Harley then maybe Gone Crazy would work live...

[Red13JoePa]

Part of the hodgepodgieness that makes me love Gens....I also love the bluesy vein. This band is underrated as blues guys.

[Monker]

A great run with SA? I like SA but I would hardly call what they had with him as a "great" anything. They toured nothing but greatest hits which ALL came prior to SA. They released 2 albums and 1 EP - none of which generated any amount of interest in comparison to anything done prior to SA. Great...? I just don't see it.

They have released more new music then many of their 80's melodic rock peers. They have had more success touring then almost ALL of them. It's BULLSHIT to say they touring behind nothing but GH. On every tour they perform some of the 'new' songs in their standard set...except for this one. Even on Main Event, they performed "Higher Place".

Yes, they had a great run with SA...they did a better job replacing Perry then most bands who had a similar challenge.

They haven't done anything great because they haven't been playing to a great audience. An audience will either make or break you. The current audience is grinding JOURNEY into the pavement.

That's also bullshit. It's not the AUDIENCE's fault that the band has become complacent and won't stop touring to record and release more great music. That's JOURNEY's fault.

I don't think it's ever too late to save yourself - to walk away from the edge and seek a new frontier. You know - make a move across the Rubicon. Dang - how many more JOURNEYisms do I have to conjure up here?

Journey is not as ageless and timeless as Dorian Grey, either. At some point their audience is going to look beneath the sheet and realize, yes, they ARE that old.

I won't try to convince you. You're already convinced. I guess it's just a matter of waiting patiently to see what they can do. Dang - those things just keep sneaking in there...

Fans don't fail me I need you like never before
Father Time is at my back, on my heels, behind every door
He says, "Son when the youth has but gone from your face
Will they let you grow older with grace?
Or will they give you up for one younger than you?"
Please tell me the things that he says aren't true

Pretending that time doesn't pass is a fantasy...one that many people here seem to live in.

[Monker]

Kalodner, who was influential in the lineup's formation, refused to sign the band when he landed his own record company Sanctuary.

Prove to me that he was even asked.

Prove to me that you know any more then what JDK said, "Knowing what I know..." Tell us what he KNOWS, and prove that YOU know.

The JSS-era has just started and therefore has no new material to play live yet, comprende?
Keep your stockings on, you fidgety old queen.

To be perfectly honest, "Higher Place" would have went over better then either "Dead or Alive" or "Edge of the Blade".

With JSS, you get NOTHING from TBF on. With Augeri, you ALWAYS did...Like it or not.

TRANSLATION:
You hate JSS's voice and misguidedly think he will turn the band into Slipknot.

Translation - TNC needs to invent things to make a point.

I never said I didn't like JSS's voice. I don't have any special feelings for it one way or the ohter. I just don't think he's the answer for Journey's future.

[Monker]

Gee, you sound like a Styx fan.

Go plunk your soured asscheeks atop of Gowan's rotating keyboard-stand and die.

Now you sound like a Dennis DeYoung fan.

[Monker]

[quote="Monker
So, they are stuck with two, maybe three if your lucky, 'new' songs on tour. With JSS, they don't even do that on this tour.

That should change once their off the DL co-headlining thing and do their own shows.[/quote]

No, it won't...not without a new album...and if they are constantly touring, they are not going to have time to finish an album...and least not finish it properly.

[Monker]

FITH is in and out, TPIYH not sure if they debuted it yet but I'll bet that and OOHW will be played. Not all on all nights of course.

Yeah,but that's not enough...They should play those every night.A balanced setlist between the old and the new would be interesting.And useful.

EXACTLY. Dump "Dead or Alive" for anything new...and Schon and Cain can keep their solos.

[Monker]

I'll go back even further to when they made the decision to move on with SA at the helm. They released Arrival and toured with the Greatest Hits! The band has said over and over again: "When we play new material or stuff from the first 3 albums we get nothing but blank stares from the audience and they get up to go for beer."

Well, I haven't read all of the replies...

But, Journey performed almost EVERY song from Arrival on that tour. They switched them in and out and "Higher Place" in it standard. So, they DID play the songs.

What do you want them to do? Dress in drag and do the hula?

So JOURNEY has moved on but the fans haven't.

And, now, Journey has to go back to the drawing board...because they are refusing to play the Augeri era songs as part of their regular set.

If it were me I'd have said, "Go get your beer but we're moving forward!"

What I find ironic is that I had to let 5-6 people by to get a beers, or whatever, during "Dead or Alive" and "Edge of the Blade"...some of the hardest rocking songs of the set.

JOURNEY wanted to move forward but instead they're pandering to an audience - an audience that just doesn't want to see them move forward.

Self-sabotage is a good way to put it.

There's nothing they can do about that right now...unless they add a bunch of Augeri era songs...which I doubt they will.

[Monker]

FITH is in and out, TPIYH not sure if they debuted it yet but I'll bet that and OOHW will be played. Not all on all nights of course.

Yeah,but that's not enough...They should play those every night.A balanced setlist between the old and the new would be interesting.And useful.

YES! I would go a little beyond that, too. The classics ought to be highlights NOT the majority of the set. For example save DSB for an encore or opening number. Make the classics be MOMENTS of glory in the set.

But they won't do this because they're afraid people will leave for beer

No, they won't do that because people won't by the tickets in the first place!

[Monker]

At the M&G I went to in July, I specifically asked Deen why he wasn't doing Patiently or M/F on this tour, since they both have become fan-faves over the past few years.
His exact words were, "Dude, we can't play that kind of stuff on this tour. We play stuff like that and people start heading to the beer stands."
So yes, they are trying to tailor the setlists to what they know/think the majority of the crowds on this tour want to hear. I hope in the future, if they tour on their own with whoever singing, that they get back to playing some older fan-faves and add in some stuff from Arrival and Generations.

So, they perform OTHER songs that send people to the beer stands! LOL! Makes sense to me!

[Wheels Of Fyre]

A great run with SA? I like SA but I would hardly call what they had with him as a "great" anything. They toured nothing but greatest hits which ALL came prior to SA. They released 2 albums and 1 EP - none of which generated any amount of interest in comparison to anything done prior to SA. Great...? I just don't see it.

They have released more new music then many of their 80's melodic rock peers. They have had more success touring then almost ALL of them. It's BULLSHIT to say they touring behind nothing but GH. On every tour they perform some of the 'new' songs in their standard set...except for this one. Even on Main Event, they performed "Higher Place".

Yes, they had a great run with SA...they did a better job replacing Perry then most bands who had a similar challenge.

So releasing quantity without quality equals great?

Regarding touring with the GH I believe you said the operative word: "some" of the new songs. They've played the GH or DD or whatever you want to call them with SOME of the new songs. If they truly believed that TBF, Arrival, Red 13, and Generations were equal to anything they've done in the past then they'd be out there wailing away sets comprised with the majority of songs from these works! To the contrary. Their sets consist of the GH with SOME newer cuts. That's not BS it's a FACT.

When SP came on board it wasn't long before music from the first 3 albums went into the dumpster. Why? Because they wanted to move on into a new direction. When SA came on board they had an opportunity to do the same with the release of Arrival and then Red 13 and again with Generations. They didn't, haven't, and won't.

How can you say that 8 years of tours on the coat tails of Perry has been great? Utterly ridiculous.

They haven't done anything great because they haven't been playing to a great audience. An audience will either make or break you. The current audience is grinding JOURNEY into the pavement.

That's also bullshit. It's not the AUDIENCE's fault that the band has become complacent and won't stop touring to record and release more great music. That's JOURNEY's fault.

The band is complacent because that's what the fans want! JOURNEY has said time and time again that they must tour with the GH and stick with what the fans want to hear otherwise they head for beer. RECOGNIZE!

Who is really to blame here? THE FANS! It's time to dump them just like they dumped their other fans back in 1977.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

FITH is in and out, TPIYH not sure if they debuted it yet but I'll bet that and OOHW will be played. Not all on all nights of course.

Yeah,but that's not enough...They should play those every night.A balanced setlist between the old and the new would be interesting.And useful.

YES! I would go a little beyond that, too. The classics ought to be highlights NOT the majority of the set. For example save DSB for an encore or opening number. Make the classics be MOMENTS of glory in the set.

But they won't do this because they're afraid people will leave for beer

No, they won't do that because people won't by the tickets in the first place!

YOU'RE RIGHT! You're making my point! Previously you said it's not the fault of the fans that JOURNEY is complacent. Here you're acknowledging that it is as they won't buy tickets should JOURNEY make the majority of their sets new material!!!

THAT'S the point! JOURNEY is complacent because they know that their fans won't buy tickets should they deviate from the GH.

THANKS!

If you don't understand that an audience makes or breaks you then you don't understand what being an artist is all about. As I've noted here before: SP thanks the fans in the Houston concert DVD for making Escape #1 in the nation. He also thanks the fans on Captured for letting JOURNEY be on THEIR album. SP understood it and so does JOURNEY now. They've got to do what the fans want or they won't be able to pay the bills. I'm saying it's time to take a risk and dump this audience.

[Classic Rock]

When SP came on board it wasn't long before music from the first 3 albums went into the dumpster. Why? Because they wanted to move on into a new direction. When SA came on board they had an opportunity to do the same with the release of Arrival and then Red 13 and again with Generations. They didn't, haven't, and won't.

I don’t agree with this. I wouldn’t say they went into the “dumpster” it would be more accurate to say they went up on the shelf. They still played songs from the first three albums even on the Departure tour. When Steve Perry came aboard how big was there fan base? I think it is safe to say it was relatively small. At that point in time it was much easier for them to stop playing the old and primary play the new. Was there songs on the radio that Journey was obligated to play back then? I don’t think so. When Steve Perry joined they only played the ones that became somewhat familiar with the audience. I think they played it for the audience and themselves, hell that was good music and I enjoy that stuff as much as I do all the rest.

When Steve Augeri joined how many fans did they have then? I think it safe to that the fan base had grown 50 times or more over. How many songs did they have on the radio at that time that they were obligated to play? I think they should have incorporated new songs into the mix much better than they did and are doing now, but I think comparing the two situations is apples and oranges.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Kalodner, who was influential in the lineup's formation, refused to sign the band when he landed his own record company Sanctuary.

Prove to me that he was even asked.

Prove to me that you know any more then what JDK said, "Knowing what I know..." Tell us what he KNOWS, and prove that YOU know.

I am just repeating what Kalodner said on his website.
He said he would not sign the guys to Sanctuary.
I didn't claim I was privy to sensitive Kalodner information, and if I was, I def. would not spout it here.

To be perfectly honest, "Higher Place" would have went over better then either "Dead or Alive" or "Edge of the Blade".

JSS stands nothing to gain from promoting Augeri's back catalog. It only muddies the water even more.

With JSS, you get NOTHING from TBF on. With Augeri, you ALWAYS did...Like it or not.

Yeah, one or two songs at best.
The exception would be when they had new music to support (like last years tour or during UTR).
But usually they played one or two new songs.

This tour is equivalent to Main Event in terms of stature and publicity.
There are more casual fans coming in and therefore they shouldn't veer too astray from the old catalog.

Besides, JSS did sing Augeri material at the start of the tour.
For whatever reason they decided to drop it.

I just don't think he's the answer for Journey's future.

And who is?

[Monker]

So releasing quantity without quality equals great?

I don't have ANY problem with the 'quality' of Arrival and Red 13. Many people don't have a problem with Generations, either.

Regarding touring with the GH I believe you said the operative word: "some" of the new songs. They've played the GH or DD or whatever you want to call them with SOME of the new songs.

Of course...that is EXACTLY what they should do nowadays. They'd be VERY foolish to go out there and flip that around and do almost all now songs with SOME GH songs. They would be alienating their own audience.

If they truly believed that TBF, Arrival, Red 13, and Generations were equal to anything they've done in the past then they'd be out there wailing away sets comprised with the majority of songs from these works!

And, in the process alienating almost all of the people who currently want to see Journey.

To the contrary. Their sets consist of the GH with SOME newer cuts. That's not BS it's a FACT.

Currently, it is the GH with NO 'newer' cuts. THAT is also a FACT.

When SP came on board it wasn't long before music from the first 3 albums went into the dumpster. Why?

That's just simply not true. All you have to do is start looking for Infinity boots and you'll find they were still performing "On a Saturday Night", "Next" (which is awesome, BTW), and many other. Even during Departure they were performing Kohutek.

Because they wanted to move on into a new direction.

They wanted to move in a 'new direction' starting with the NEXT album, not the Infinity album.

When SA came on board they had an opportunity to do the same with the release of Arrival and then Red 13 and again with Generations. They didn't, haven't, and won't.

Of course not. When Arrival was released it was posted on the newsgroup (by froy, btw) guessing what Arrival songs would be played...and choosing 6 or 7 songs. I argued that it was TOTALY unrealistic to expect that...I argued that we would get the singles performed every night, and the others would be rotated..and that would be it...Unless something took off on radio and became a hit. I was pretty much right on.

How can you say that 8 years of tours on the coat tails of Perry has been great? Utterly ridiculous.

IMO, it's an insult to Journey to say that performing Journey songs at a Journey concert is riding PERRY's tux tails. They're not up there performing "Oh, Sherrie" and "Foolish Heart". They were, are, and always will be JOURNEY's songs.

The band is complacent because that's what the fans want!

No it's not. The fans want new music. They want some of that new music performed, along with some of the GH stuff. However, the nostalgic concert goer wants GH stuff and couldn't care less about anything new. It's up to the band to find the ballance between those two audiences, and keeping themselves happy. Totaly ignoring EITHER of those audiences is a road to failure.

Who is really to blame here? THE FANS! It's time to dump them just like they dumped their other fans back in 1977.

LOL...yeah, the size of the fanbase they 'dumped' back in 1977 compared to the size of fanbase they would be dumping today is really comparable. So is dumping 30yrs of musical history compared to 3. Those are very good and valid comparisons there.

[Monker]

I am just repeating what Kalodner said on his website.
He said he would not sign the guys to Sanctuary.

He siad, "Knowing what I know" he would not sign them.

How do you know Journey even WANTED to be signed? I don't think they did.

You made it sound like they asked, and were turned down.

JSS stands nothing to gain from promoting Augeri's back catalog. It only muddies the water even more.

No, but JOURNEY stands to put forth a better show by giving the audience more of what they want, instead of songs that make them scratch their heads. If not HP, then choose something else. As far as I know, it doesn't benefit them any more to perform a Perry era song over an Augeri era song anyway...it's ALL Journey - isn't it?

Yeah, one or two songs at best.
The exception would be when they had new music to support (like last years tour or during UTR).

That is also not true. During the Arrival tour, they played up to four songs.

But usually they played one or two new songs.

Usualy they performed two, and added some album cuts...like the accoustic set...instead of newer songs.

This tour is equivalent to Main Event in terms of stature and publicity.

And, at the Main Even show I saw, I heard "HIgher Place".

There are more casual fans coming in and therefore they shouldn't veer too astray from the old catalog.

If they can dig deep into album cuts and pull out Edge and DOA, they can pull out Augeri era songs too...it won't go over any worse.

Besides, JSS did sing Augeri material at the start of the tour.
For whatever reason they decided to drop it.

If that doesn't work, then they should try something else...In my experience, nobody got up to get a beer for DL.

I just don't think he's the answer for Journey's future.

And who is?

Nobody. Like I have said, it doesn't matter who is singing, Journey is going to go downhill from here.

[squirt1]

TNC- They sure were drawing small crowds w/o another band and giving away cd's to hike up the ticket price. This DL tour is about DL and Journey is along for the ride. I saw the run for the beer/pizza/food lines here in Cincinnati,but when DL came on, few moved from their seats.We missed the 1st 7 songs of Journey because the lines were so long. That shocked me. I think Jeff will be at least a stabilizing factor and this DL thing is probably the luckiest thing that EVER happened to them post Perry. Jeff was good though and I would go again.. There just is no substitute for Perry and never will be. If you have never seen him perform at a concert,please skip an uninformed opinion.

[FormerJrnyFan]

Hey, I found the picture that was taken on the day that Journey jumped the shark:

Neal & Ross seemed to stay afloat

[Rockindeano]

That was a picture that ran in Time Magazine in 1982.

[squirt1]

Monker- Kalodner even said in one article or interview that Sony would not be interested in signing the band ,as I remember it. He also said somthing like, with Perry it may be another story. I do remember this was post Augeri,but not long after SA was singing with them. Evidently,with Sanctuary he also wanted the proven product or nothing. What tightropes that man must walk with these super sensitive bands.

[The_Noble_Cause]

He siad, "Knowing what I know" he would not sign them.

Yes I recall.
At the time I even sent Kalodner hate mail for saying that.
My what a difference a few years can make.
I wonder if "knowing what I know" referred to the usage of tapes?

How do you know Journey even WANTED to be signed? I don't think they did.

I believe Neal mentioned they were looking at a few deals. Universal was mentioned at the time, I think. And I think those were distribution deals only.
Other than that I don't know.

You made it sound like they asked, and were turned down.

Sorry.
My point was that even a big wig honcho like Kalodner would not sign Journey even with Augeri there.
And he always caters to classic rock acts.
So you're point about Journey never getting signed to a major label again now with JSS is moot.

As far as I know, it doesn't benefit them any more to perform a Perry era song over an Augeri era song anyway...it's ALL Journey - isn't it?

In principle, yes.
Playing FITH or HP should be no more off-limits than playing Open Arms or any Perry-era tune.
However, what happens when the casual concertgoer goes to the record store to seek out FITH or HP only to find that singer is now gone.
Like I said, it muddies the waters a bit.
It's also worth considering that Jeff is prolly selectively choosing the songs that suit his voice the best and will enable his voice to last the tour.

That is also not true. During the Arrival tour, they played up to four songs.

By and large, that tour was an anomaly.
They were still testing audience's reactions to new material.
And if I'm not mistaken, as that tour went on new material got played less and less.

And, at the Main Even show I saw, I heard "HIgher Place".

Wow. One whole new song. Yippeeee!
Like I said, unless they toured solo, you usually got one or two songs at best.

If they can dig deep into album cuts and pull out Edge and DOA, they can pull out Augeri era songs too...it won't go over any worse.

Like I said, maybe Jeff is picking songs that work best for him.
Augeri spiritedly threw himself into the whole catalog and winded up hurting himself.
Perhaps there is something to be learned from that.

Nobody. Like I have said, it doesn't matter who is singing, Journey is going to go downhill from here.

Like I have also said ad nauseum, it doesn't matter who is singing.
It's all about the catalog, stupid.

[The_Noble_Cause]

He siad, "Knowing what I know" he would not sign them.

Yes I recall.
At the time I even sent Kalodner hate mail for saying that.
My what a difference a few years can make.
I wonder if "knowing what I know" referred to the usage of tapes?

How do you know Journey even WANTED to be signed? I don't think they did.

I believe Neal mentioned they were looking at a few deals. Universal was mentioned at the time, I think. And I think those were distribution deals only.
Other than that I don't know.

You made it sound like they asked, and were turned down.

Sorry.
My point was that even a big wig honcho like Kalodner would not sign Journey even with Augeri there.
And he always caters to classic rock acts.
So you're point about Journey never getting signed to a major label again now with JSS is moot.

As far as I know, it doesn't benefit them any more to perform a Perry era song over an Augeri era song anyway...it's ALL Journey - isn't it?

In principle, yes.
Playing FITH or HP should be no more off-limits than playing Open Arms or any Perry-era tune.
However, what happens when the casual concertgoer goes to the record store to seek out FITH or HP only to find that singer is now gone.
Like I said, it muddies the waters a bit.
It's also worth considering that Jeff is prolly selectively choosing the songs that suit his voice the best and will enable his voice to last the tour.

That is also not true. During the Arrival tour, they played up to four songs.

By and large, that tour was an anomaly.
They were still testing audience's reactions to new material.
And if I'm not mistaken, as that tour went on new material got played less and less.

And, at the Main Even show I saw, I heard "HIgher Place".

Wow. One whole new song. Yippeeee!
Like I said, unless they toured solo, you usually got one or two songs at best.

If they can dig deep into album cuts and pull out Edge and DOA, they can pull out Augeri era songs too...it won't go over any worse.

Like I said, maybe Jeff is picking songs that work best for him.
Augeri spiritedly threw himself into the whole catalog and winded up hurting himself.
Perhaps there is something to be learned from that.

Nobody. Like I have said, it doesn't matter who is singing, Journey is going to go downhill from here.

Like I have also said ad nauseum, it doesn't matter who is singing.
It's all about the catalog, stupid.

Hurry up and respond Monker.
You big blubbering vagina.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

IMO, it's an insult to Journey to say that performing Journey songs at a Journey concert is riding PERRY's tux tails. They were, are, and always will be JOURNEY's songs.

They're technically JOURNEY songs BUT they were popularized by SP's voice. That's a FACT.

You just don't get the point. It's a matter of MOVING FORWARD. The FACT is that JOURNEY is playing ALL of the songs that were popularized with SP. They haven't MOVED FORWARD with their new material.

They're riding tails. That's not an insult - it's a CLEAR observation that any objective person can see.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Who is really to blame here? THE FANS! It's time to dump them just like they dumped their other fans back in 1977.

LOL...yeah, the size of the fanbase they 'dumped' back in 1977 compared to the size of fanbase they would be dumping today is really comparable. So is dumping 30yrs of musical history compared to 3. Those are very good and valid comparisons there.

The fanbase that was dumped in 1977 bought how many JOURNEY albums? The fanbase in 2006 bought how many copies of GENERATIONS? For that matter, Red 13 or Arrival?

Do the math.

Of course, the more intelligent argument would be: how many fans attended concerts in 1977 as oppossed to 2006? Unfortunately, that's not even possible to compare.

[Monker]

The fanbase that was dumped in 1977 bought how many JOURNEY albums? The fanbase in 2006 bought how many copies of GENERATIONS? For that matter, Red 13 or Arrival?

The band back in 1977 cared about being on a label. The band today doesn't. So, what's your point?

Again, they started to move away from their Progressive image into a more vocal oriented band on the Next album...NOT Infinity.

Of course, the more intelligent argument would be: how many fans attended concerts in 1977 as oppossed to 2006? Unfortunately, that's not even possible to compare.

Only because you want to ignore the fact that Journey in 1977 was basicaly a local SF band that had not broke nationaly AT ALL. If they had, they would have sold more albums and would not have had pressure from the label to get a hit, or get lost.

[larryfromnextdoor]

fonzi jumped a shark too,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE

[Monker]

They're technically JOURNEY songs BUT they were popularized by SP's voice. That's a FACT.

No it's not a 'fact'. It's an opinion. I feel that Herbie did as much, or MORE, to 'popularize' those songs as Perry.

You just don't get the point. It's a matter of MOVING FORWARD. The FACT is that JOURNEY is playing ALL of the songs that were popularized with SP. They haven't MOVED FORWARD with their new material.

And, you don't get the point that performing ALL 'new' songs is just as bad of a decision as performing none.

They're riding tails. That's not an insult - it's a CLEAR observation that any objective person can see.

It's not PERRY's tails they are riding, it's JOURNEY's...and that isn't a COMPLETELY bad thing.

[Monker]

Monker- Kalodner even said in one article or interview that Sony would not be interested in signing the band ,as I remember it. He also said somthing like, with Perry it may be another story. I do remember this was post Augeri,but not long after SA was singing with them. Evidently,with Sanctuary he also wanted the proven product or nothing. What tightropes that man must walk with these super sensitive bands.

Sure, he said that...that was before he was at Sanctuary and long after Arrival. Augeri had been with Journey for three or four years by then.

At Sanctuary, he did not elaborate on what he meant...that "evidently" is VERY speculative. There were a lot of theories tossed about back then...about what he meant by "knowing what I know." This was about the time that Soul Sirkus was getting started...

Some people speculated he was talking about the sales of Arrival.
Some people speculated he was talking about Neal wanting SS to be his next big thing, instead of Journey.
Some people specilated Perry had some control that JDK knew about and didn't want to deal with.

But, ALL of it was speculation...nobody knows what JDK meant.