Neal's Guitar Synth Pickup?

[texafana]

I read a few places today that Neal sometimes uses a synth pickup on his guitar to trigger synth sound effects. Can someone give me a song example in a live setting where he's using it? I have the 2001 DVD if that helps. Thanks!

[Milos]

When Neal toured with Hardline, he played the guitar synth on the song "Hot Cherie" (the beginning). As far as using it with Journey I'm not completely sure, but I think he used it to trigger various loops and effects during the song "Higher Place."

[texafana]

I think alot of the backing tracks are cued up by Jon Cain, and then Deen hears a click track in his ear to keep tempo. What I've read about Neal's synth goodies is, it allows him to play a lead or chords and then also have a synth sound, string, etc, play at the same time to add textures, fullness, fx, etc to his playing. But I'd like concrete fact which song he does this so I can listen for it.

[FishinMagician]

ya I'm interested in that too!

[StringsOfJoy]

Best guess from here:

I think Neal mostly used that pickup to approximate single-coil sounds compared to his passive hot humbucking pickups: kind of like having a Variax before Variaxes were available.

I suppose it's possible that he could blend both signals, but I don't think the electronics on the PRS allowed for that.

Compare his guitar sound on most of "Send Her My Love" with some of the songs that come before (on "Lights" right after he uses a Strat, so don't count that one...also, I'm pretty sure he doesn't use the Strat bridge pickup on Lights). It's a little brighter on the top end (or middle-top) and has an attenuated middle...sounds a little more like a bridge Strat pickup played with taste and restraint. You can hear the same on "Who's Crying Now" (if you listen carefully, I think I can hear a little of the digital-ness of the guitar synth modeling during some of his little fills...it's subtle, but you can hear a bit of it during those "amp just breaking up" moments). The early part of Lovin', Touchin', Squeezin'...etc...

I think it's on a lot during the first 4 minutes of "La Raza Del Sol" too (in fact, Neal seems to switch pickups quite a bit on this song...around 4:37 to 4:50 you get the neck rail (humbucking) pickup near the sustainer...at 5:05 to 5:21, I think you get the MIDI single-coil sound again...at 5:35 he seems to kick on the bridge 'bucker with a wah effect).

Compare those sounds with him going back to the humbuckers on "Open Arms." There's a subtle difference, but it's there.

In any case, it's probably easiest to identify on rhythm parts where you just ask "how much string separation do I hear right now?" On anything but Lights or when Jon doubles up on rhythm guitar, the more string definition you hear, the likelier it is that that MIDI pickup is on.

Playing leads, the cool thing is I think it gave him the option of doing multiple fills or solo parts where he could kick in a different, contrasting, lead sound on the same song to keep the ear more interested. Also it's worth remembering that the PRS could get quasi-single-coil sounds this way, but the Strat (not having a MIDI pickup) pretty much could only sound like a Strat. So if Neal wanted to go back and forth and was willing to live with digital modeling in a live song, the MIDI pickup was the way to go.

[larryfromnextdoor]

Best guess from here:

I think Neal mostly used that pickup to approximate single-coil sounds compared to his passive hot humbucking pickups: kind of like having a Variax before Variaxes were available.

I suppose it's possible that he could blend both signals, but I don't think the electronics on the PRS allowed for that.

Compare his guitar sound on most of "Send Her My Love" with some of the songs that come before (on "Lights" right after he uses a Strat, so don't count that one...also, I'm pretty sure he doesn't use the Strat bridge pickup on Lights). It's a little brighter on the top end (or middle-top) and has an attenuated middle...sounds a little more like a bridge Strat pickup played with taste and restraint. You can hear the same on "Who's Crying Now" (if you listen carefully, I think I can hear a little of the digital-ness of the guitar synth modeling during some of his little fills...it's subtle, but you can hear a bit of it during those "amp just breaking up" moments). The early part of Lovin', Touchin', Squeezin'...etc...

I think it's on a lot during the first 4 minutes of "La Raza Del Sol" too (in fact, Neal seems to switch pickups quite a bit on this song...around 4:37 to 4:50 you get the neck rail (humbucking) pickup near the sustainer...at 5:05 to 5:21, I think you get the MIDI single-coil sound again...at 5:35 he seems to kick on the bridge 'bucker with a wah effect).

Compare those sounds with him going back to the humbuckers on "Open Arms." There's a subtle difference, but it's there.

In any case, it's probably easiest to identify on rhythm parts where you just ask "how much string separation do I hear right now?" On anything but Lights or when Jon doubles up on rhythm guitar, the more string definition you hear, the likelier it is that that MIDI pickup is on.

Playing leads, the cool thing is I think it gave him the option of doing multiple fills or solo parts where he could kick in a different, contrasting, lead sound on the same song to keep the ear more interested. Also it's worth remembering that the PRS could get quasi-single-coil sounds this way, but the Strat (not having a MIDI pickup) pretty much could only sound like a Strat. So if Neal wanted to go back and forth and was willing to live with digital modeling in a live song, the MIDI pickup was the way to go.

uh.. wow.. you know your stuff.. but i always thought on the early stuff, "lights", "wheel", that he rolled all the tone knobs to 0, used the neck pick up and turned the treble up on the amp.... ya know , neal could have written a book , or put out an instructional vid like all those dudes did,, he could have made a killin on it, and gave away lots of his secrets... but nooooo....you cant even find his tabs online................dude, you need to come around more..

[larryfromnextdoor]

I think alot of the backing tracks are cued up by Jon Cain, and then Deen hears a click track in his ear to keep tempo. What I've read about Neal's synth goodies is, it allows him to play a lead or chords and then also have a synth sound, string, etc, play at the same time to add textures, fullness, fx, etc to his playing. But I'd like concrete fact which song he does this so I can listen for it.

When Neal toured with Hardline, he played the guitar synth on the song "Hot Cherie" (the beginning). As far as using it with Journey I'm not completely sure, but I think he used it to trigger various loops and effects during the song "Higher Place."

redjoe13 swears that cain did that ,, it was a neal recording that was cued up by cain..im not sure of that , but i dont see how you could cue up loops ect live with a floor pedal while playing guitar.... too complicated..

[stevew2]

It is kind of like lipping,of course Neal can get away with that.

[StringsOfJoy]

uh.. wow.. you know your stuff.. but i always thought on the early stuff, "lights", "wheel", that he rolled all the tone knobs to 0, used the neck pick up and turned the treble up on the amp.... ya know , neal could have written a book , or put out an instructional vid like all those dudes did,, he could have made a killin on it, and gave away lots of his secrets... but nooooo....you cant even find his tabs online................dude, you need to come around more..

Thanks Larry.

In case you're a guitar player and trying to get Neal's tone more easily, here's a couple of things to consider about your tone knob technique.

First, it'd be pretty fussy to pull off live and Neal doesn't touch his amp EQ in concert (for really, really good sound engineering reasons...you pretty much obviate the reason for the pre-concert sound check by doing it and it makes the sound guy pull his hair out). It's much easier to simply toggle from your guitar and get your tone without having to dial and redial an amp mid-song.

Secondly, theres a principle in sound engineering that you want to optimize your gain structure (get the highest signal-to noise ratio) at the source and then preserve the things you like about the source sound -- and then CUT rather than boost EQ to the extent necessary to find that magic balance, optimizing overall gain as you make EQ cuts -- rather than adding something down the chain that you had cut at the source.

That's one reason that people take so much time dialing in their sound and positioning mics just so to get as close to their sound at the source. Keep in mind that every new element in your chain that modifies that sound is going to degrade your original tone by adding more noise to the S/N ratio and therefore will marginally sound less musically appealing to most people.

By rolling the tone pots all the way down, you essentially delete a range of harmonics on the top end rather than only attenuating them. Those harmonics are then gone forever and they can't be added on later by turning the treble EQ up on the amp. Often the only frequencies in the signal affected by the amp's treble EQ after you've rolled your guitar pots all the way down are electrical noise picked up by your signal chain, so by rolling your treble up, you're not gaining much signal in those frequencies and adding a disproportionate amount of higher frequency noise, often the sound of hissing, which then will take away from what you have left.

A single-coil actually works in somewhat the opposite way...it actually extends the top end frequency range of a guitar's harmonics, while cutting the middle frequencies. This is one of the reasons you get a spankier, raunchier, separated sound when a Strat is gained up versus the thickly smeared "wall of sound" that a Les Paul type guitar gives you. Counterintuitive too is the fact that it's the way in which a Strat extends higher frequencies that gives the Strat a more appealing better defined neck pickup sound to most people...it won't get woofy like a humbucker because it gives a flatter frequency response at the higher end...more like a presence boost applied to a 'bucker. Also it's similar to the reason bass players get better definition and "snap" when they boost their treble frequencies and attenuate their bass frequencies. If the bass frequencies were boosted without the treble frequencies to compensate for some of that, you'd just hear a smear of thudding and the rhythm section wouldn't sound as "tight."

Those are my musings for the evening...enjoy your tone quest!

[larryfromnextdoor]

uh.. wow.. you know your stuff.. but i always thought on the early stuff, "lights", "wheel", that he rolled all the tone knobs to 0, used the neck pick up and turned the treble up on the amp.... ya know , neal could have written a book , or put out an instructional vid like all those dudes did,, he could have made a killin on it, and gave away lots of his secrets... but nooooo....you cant even find his tabs online................dude, you need to come around more..

Thanks Larry.

In case you're a guitar player and trying to get Neal's tone more easily, here's a couple of things to consider about your tone knob technique.

First, it'd be pretty fussy to pull off live and Neal doesn't touch his amp EQ in concert (for really, really good sound engineering reasons...you pretty much obviate the reason for the pre-concert sound check by doing it and it makes the sound guy pull his hair out). It's much easier to simply toggle from your guitar and get your tone without having to dial and redial an amp mid-song.

Secondly, theres a principle in sound engineering that you want to optimize your gain structure (get the highest signal-to noise ratio) at the source and then preserve the things you like about the source sound -- and then CUT rather than boost EQ to the extent necessary to find that magic balance, optimizing overall gain as you make EQ cuts -- rather than adding something down the chain that you had cut at the source.

That's one reason that people take so much time dialing in their sound and positioning mics just so to get as close to their sound at the source. Keep in mind that every new element in your chain that modifies that sound is going to degrade your original tone by adding more noise to the S/N ratio and therefore will marginally sound less musically appealing to most people.

By rolling the tone pots all the way down, you essentially delete a range of harmonics on the top end rather than only attenuating them. Those harmonics are then gone forever and they can't be added on later by turning the treble EQ up on the amp. Often the only frequencies in the signal affected by the amp's treble EQ after you've rolled your guitar pots all the way down are electrical noise picked up by your signal chain, so by rolling your treble up, you're not gaining much signal in those frequencies and adding a disproportionate amount of higher frequency noise, often the sound of hissing, which then will take away from what you have left.

A single-coil actually works in somewhat the opposite way...it actually extends the top end frequency range of a guitar's harmonics, while cutting the middle frequencies. This is one of the reasons you get a spankier, raunchier, separated sound when a Strat is gained up versus the thickly smeared "wall of sound" that a Les Paul type guitar gives you. Counterintuitive too is the fact that it's the way in which a Strat extends higher frequencies that gives the Strat a more appealing better defined neck pickup sound to most people...it won't get woofy like a humbucker because it gives a flatter frequency response at the higher end...more like a presence boost applied to a 'bucker. Also it's similar to the reason bass players get better definition and "snap" when they boost their treble frequencies and attenuate their bass frequencies. If the bass frequencies were boosted without the treble frequencies to compensate for some of that, you'd just hear a smear of thudding and the rhythm section wouldn't sound as "tight."

Those are my musings for the evening...enjoy your tone quest!

.. your Batman man...simply amazing..

[texafana]

wow...thanks! So you don't think Neal's actually using the midi trigger to play an external sound module that might play a string sound or synth sound at the same time as his guitar tone? I was told he was doing this, but I've found no evidence of this yet.

[FishinMagician]

wow...thanks! So you don't think Neal's actually using the midi trigger to play an external sound module that might play a string sound or synth sound at the same time as his guitar tone? I was told he was doing this, but I've found no evidence of this yet.

i think he does that on big moon and other songs from his albums but i dont know where he does it in journey

[texafana]

wow...thanks! So you don't think Neal's actually using the midi trigger to play an external sound module that might play a string sound or synth sound at the same time as his guitar tone? I was told he was doing this, but I've found no evidence of this yet.

i think he does that on big moon and other songs from his albums but i dont know where he does it in journey

Ahh!! Ok, that could by why I can't find anything. Thanks!

[Tom Jrnyfn]

I have a question if someone can help.

My son has a Vox AD100VTH Valvetronix Head (100 Watts) with a 4 speaker cabinet. He's playing a PRSCE24 Maple Top. The problem he is running into, is switching effects on the fly. He's now wants to start building a pedal board. He currently has a Cry Baby and foot switch. The effects he wants to add is a Booster pedal, Flanger pedal, Blues driver pedal and a Super Shift pedal.

I don't play and he's only 12. I'm getting so many different Ideas, advice etc..For Instance, someone told me that certain effects should not be run through the front of the amp, but through the rear. I guess I'm asking about the wiring of the board. His footswitch connects to the back of the amp, How would I wire it to the board?

Here's the board I am ordering for him.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/SKB-PS-45-P ... 1152133.gc

I have no Idea what I'm doing

[larryfromnextdoor]

I have a question if someone can help.

My son has a Vox AD100VTH Valvetronix Head (100 Watts) with a 4 speaker cabinet. He's playing a PRSCE24 Maple Top. The problem he is running into, is switching effects on the fly. He's now wants to start building a pedal board. He currently has a Cry Baby and foot switch. The effects he wants to add is a Booster pedal, Flanger pedal, Blues driver pedal and a Super Shift pedal.

I don't play and he's only 12. I'm getting so many different Ideas, advice etc..For Instance, someone told me that certain effects should not be run through the front of the amp, but through the rear. I guess I'm asking about the wiring of the board. His footswitch connects to the back of the amp, How would I wire it to the board?

Here's the board I am ordering for him.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/SKB-PS-45-P ... 1152133.gc

I have no Idea what I'm doing

a 100 watt head and 4 speaker cabnet? is he playing the local coliseum? love it .. i wouldnt buy that case.. its nice but pricy unless he going to gig lots.. i just spread the pedals out in front of me .. get a 20 dollar patch that plugs into the wall to power them up...but it is NICE...

the vox.... doesnt the head come with all those effects he wants.. i think vox makes a pedal board to switch on the fly much easier...

another thing,, if he hasent tried those pedals out with THAT amp then be careful... go to guitar center , plug them up and make sure its the sound he wants.. somethimes those pedals dont work that well with the modeling amps.... unless he just wants to plug them into the clean channel of the amp...

your at the point that you cant just buy him stuff as presents.. they have to be tried out first and see which arrangements work .. ect.... OR taken back to guitar center... ..your a cool daddy!!!!

[Tom Jrnyfn]

I have a question if someone can help.

My son has a Vox AD100VTH Valvetronix Head (100 Watts) with a 4 speaker cabinet. He's playing a PRSCE24 Maple Top. The problem he is running into, is switching effects on the fly. He's now wants to start building a pedal board. He currently has a Cry Baby and foot switch. The effects he wants to add is a Booster pedal, Flanger pedal, Blues driver pedal and a Super Shift pedal.

I don't play and he's only 12. I'm getting so many different Ideas, advice etc..For Instance, someone told me that certain effects should not be run through the front of the amp, but through the rear. I guess I'm asking about the wiring of the board. His footswitch connects to the back of the amp, How would I wire it to the board?

Here's the board I am ordering for him.
http://www.guitarcenter.com/SKB-PS-45-P ... 1152133.gc

I have no Idea what I'm doing

a 100 watt head and 4 speaker cabnet? is he playing the local coliseum? love it .. i wouldnt buy that case.. its nice but pricy unless he going to gig lots.. i just spread the pedals out in front of me .. get a 20 dollar patch that plugs into the wall to power them up...but it is NICE...

the vox.... doesnt the head come with all those effects he wants.. i think vox makes a pedal board to switch on the fly much easier...

another thing,, if he hasent tried those pedals out with THAT amp then be careful... go to guitar center , plug them up and make sure its the sound he wants.. somethimes those pedals dont work that well with the modeling amps.... unless he just wants to plug them into the clean channel of the amp...

your at the point that you cant just buy him stuff as presents.. they have to be tried out first and see which arrangements work .. ect.... OR taken back to guitar center... ..your a cool daddy!!!!

Thanks Larry, the head does have effects, but the switch only gives it one change. I got a good deal on the amp since I bought all the gear at once. Maybe a better switch? He is moving around a lot more now, that's why I wanted to Invest in the pedal board.

The guy who keeps his guitar in shape also recommended that I bring in his gear and try out different pedals. He's a little more pricey, but seems to know his stuff.

Thanks!

[StyxCollector]

Mr. Schon has used the Roland GR series of guitar synth technology going back to the 70s when it was a guitar which had regular pickups as well as special ones to translate the notes into analog synth stuff. Over time, Roland developed the technology where it could be built into the guitar or as a pickup added where it then sent the signals over MIDI.

In the 70s and 80s Roland's guitars used various shapes (some Les Paul-ish and a lot of Strat-type bodies). Neal used the 80s version (Strat body) for the longest time. So did Mike Rutherford (especially on the 1983-4 Genesis tour).