Thoughts on Red 13 and Generations...

[conversationpc]

I'm welling up just typing this out....

[Red13JoePa]

Azoff wasn't going to pull out all the stops for the Augeri-era.

In hindsight, CLEARLY this was the case.
We see it now with his management work on the new lineup and album.

[Saint John]

Azoff wasn't going to pull out all the stops for the Augeri-era.

In hindsight, CLEARLY this was the case.
We see it now with his management work on the new lineup and album.

2 reasons for this:

1) Augeri simply wasn't good enough to push.

2) I think they ultimately thought Perry would cut the act and come back so there was no sense in wasting money.

[S2M]

Hiring Augeri was an 8-year old stop 'Gap'.......

And looking back, his voice was very weak. I had high hopes when 'Remember Me' came out....but......

[Matthew]

Perhaps if you would lay down your arms and stop looking at every response in combative binary terms of Augeri vs. Arnel, (a battle being waged only in your head),

TNC - for all your military references and talk of binary terms...the fact is...this is a debate both you and I have been conducting in two simultaneous threads. You can claim that I'm a mad person babbling into the void...but unfortunately your numerous responses to my ravings are there for all to see.

Azoff wasn't going to pull out all the stops for the Augeri-era.
Not when they had no new product to promote, and a singer whose performances were unpredictable (at best).

Which was my point. Azoff didn't pull his finger out because he didn't have a line-up he really believed in....

I never said he would be a break from the legacy sound.

TNC - you're flip flopping around the place so much I've lost track of which side of the fence you're on. Haven't you just been chiding the band for their "shameful" attempt to peddle the legacy sound? Yet here you say your top choice as vocalist for the band...wouldn't represent a break away from the legacy sound.

It’s not a slight on Arnel that fans like Monker and I just can’t bring ourselves to give a fuck anymore.

In fact, I'm actually less enthusiastic about the new record than you are....

The main PR narrative is Journey rescued another down-and-out Perry doppelganger and gave him a shot at fame. Same difference.

And this narrative is completely accurate. Yet you are still clinging on to the idea that Schon and Cain's motives were pure and 'artistic' when they hired Augeri....

I'm welling up just typing this out....

Looks like it's time to get the giant irony flag out....

So Arnel is now the stuff of legend, eh? Too funny.

Too pedantic. You can do better than that TNC....

We have also heard that it was Neal’s gf who actually discovered Arnel.

You are soo vested in this band that you are willing to turn anything into an Arnel vs. Augeri argument.
Including, who’s “rags to riches” story is more personally moving.
Arnel could be gone in a month.
None of this matters.

You're like a dog with a bone when it comes to arguing about Journey. As is Monker. As am I. We're all invested in this stupid band even though we all know that their best days are long gone. So I don't buy this posture of indifference for one second. You were here like the rest of us were the moment that new CD came out and you were heaping praise on the one track that batantly rips Perry off and even went as far as saying Revelation is more consistent than Escape.

Now...almost overnight..you're claiming its all a sham and a disgrace...and that you don't care anymore. All very bizarre.

[The_Noble_Cause]

TNC - for all your military references and talk of binary terms...the fact is...this is a debate both you and I have been conducting in two simultaneous threads. You can claim that I'm a mad person babbling into the void...but unfortunately your numerous responses to my ravings are there for all to see.

My only claim is that the band’s talk of being larger than any one member’s contributions has now been replaced with a PR approach that decidedly places Perry’s vox over anything else.
I’m not debating Arnel vs. this or that… I don’t give a fuck

Which was my point. Azoff didn't pull his finger out because he didn't have a line-up he really believed in....

No, no, you went so far as to claim that there was no similar Revelation-style PR-blitz in the lead up to Arrival - and that all the recent ensuing media attention has somehow vindicated Arnel's god-given talents over Augeri's.
I'm not here to preserve the hallowed memory of Steve Augeri, but just as a matter of factual accuracy, that's bullshit.

Also, I don't exactly recall the Perry-era basking in the glow of mainstream press approval....does this mean Arnel is better than Perry too?

TNC - you're flip flopping around the place so much I've lost track of which side of the fence you're on. Haven't you just been chiding the band for their "shameful" attempt to peddle the legacy sound? Yet here you say your top choice as vocalist for the band...wouldn't represent a break away from the legacy sound.

I’ve chided the PR decision to put Perry’s voice on a pedestal to the detriment of the band’s Santana-offshoot roots, as well as their own individual talents and contributions.

In fact, I'm actually less enthusiastic about the new record than you are....

I like the music – period.
That’s where my fandom starts and end.
You are a pom-pom toting cheerleader for the band's personalities.

And this narrative is completely accurate. Yet you are still clinging on to the idea that Schon and Cain's motives were pure and 'artistic' when they hired Augeri....

I said their motives don’t really matter, but perception is everything.
The band is now openly genuflecting at the altar of Perry’s voice and thereby validating the most pernicious stereotypes of them being sidemen.

So Arnel is now the stuff of legend, eh? Too funny.

Too pedantic. You can do better than that TNC....

I fail to see how that’s pedantic.
But if my jabs fail to land due to a perceived lack of effort, you’d be absolutely correct.
I simply don’t give a shit when it comes to the personal politics of the band.

You're like a dog with a bone when it comes to arguing about Journey. As is Monker. As am I. We're all invested in this stupid band even though we all know that their best days are long gone. So I don't buy this posture of indifference for one second. You were here like the rest of us were the moment that new CD came out and you were heaping praise on the one track that batantly rips Perry off and even went as far as saying Revelation is more consistent than Escape.

Sure, I’ll give a listen to whatever the band puts out, but I’m not personally vested in the latest singer's little orphan annie backstory.
I've seen this movie unfold twice already.
I couldn’t care less.

[conversationpc]

[Matthew]

My only claim is that the band’s talk of being larger than any one member’s contributions has now been replaced with a PR approach that decidedly places Perry’s vox over anything else.
I’m not debating Arnel vs. this or that… I don’t give a fuck

My only claim is that the Cain interview merely confirmed what's been bog obvious to anyone with ears since 1998: that the band have been sticking as closely as possible to the trademark sound Perry and Schon created. And this wasn't even the first time the band have talked in a positive way about maintaining Perry's 'presence' in the band. Deen made the "Steve Perry with a perm remark" about Augeri seven or eight years ago. Neal also went on record to say how pleased he was by JSS's Perryesque vocals. If anything Cain was being vague in comparison.

And my only argument is with the old Augeri supporters who are suddenly attacking the band for doing the very thing they excused and defended for so many years...

No, no, you went so far as to claim that there was no similar Revelation-style PR-blitz in the lead up to Arrival - and that all the recent ensuing media attention has somehow vindicated Arnel's god-given talents over Augeri's.

I said that Arrival campaign never created much of a genuine buzz. Whereas the reaction Revelation has received does suggest that Arnel is more marketable...for whatever reason.

Also, I don't exactly recall the Perry-era basking in the glow of mainstream press approval....does this mean Arnel is better than Perry too?

Good point. It's true that Journey were hated by the critics back then. But I guess the extraordinary media visibility and album sales made up for it...

I like the music – period.
That’s where my fandom starts and end.
You are a pom-pom toting cheerleader for the band's personalities.

Yet you aren't just sitting quietly at home listening to the CDs are you? You've posted on this forum for Journey fanatics over five thousand times.

Also - this claim that you're above personalities is contradicted by the first line of your post...about how annoyed you are that Schon and Cain have placed one personality above all others including their own.

perception is everything.

This logic could be used to justify Tapegate as well. Who cares if Journey were conning their fans? As long as the fans perceive the concert to be live then what's the problem? And so on...

I've seen this movie unfold twice already.
I couldn’t care less.

Yes - this is Monker's line too - despite the fact that he runs a Journey Digest group and a Journey MySpace page and God knows what else in an obsession that has played out online since the internet began. You're not much different TNC to be honest....with your Walter Yetnikoff rating and your relentless debating in multi-page threads. Sure, you have taken a few breaks from the forum recently but the moment anything remotely significant happens with the band you're on here like a flash.

So all this 'I don't care' chat is hard to take seriously. It just sounds a bit sulky if you ask me...

[The_Noble_Cause]

And my only claim is that the Cain interview was introducing nothing new. Deen made the "Steve Perry with a perm remark" about Augeri seven or eight years ago. Neal also went on record to ssy how pleased he was by JSS's Perryesque vocals. Plus it's been bog obvious to anyone with ears that since 1998 the band have been sticking as close as possible to the trademark sound Perry and Schon created.

When the band reformed in 1998 it was on the basis of Neal's guitar "talking Journey" and "wanting his band back", now they are groveling at the altar of Perry's voice and maundering on about "legacy sound" and "having the magic back" - and even including such obsequious drivel into their press releases.
Whether you choose to deny it or not, there's been a concerted outward PR effort this time around to capitalize on nostalgia and ride the crest of the Soprano's DSB finale.

I don't care about an offhand comment from Deen. Those that say Augeri was hired on the basis of pulling off the Perry dozen, will get no argument from me.
The focal point of the band reforming in 1998 was the band, not only a voice.

I said that Arrival campaign never created much of a genuine buzz. Whereas the reaction Revelation has received does suggest that Arnel is more marketable...for whatever reason.

No, you went so far as to say Azoff never pulled out the guns for the Augeri-lineup at all.
And then u used that as some sort of airtight concrete referendum on Augeri's talents.
When the truth is Arrival garnered more television coverage than Revelation.

Yet you aren't just sitting quietly at home on listening to the CDs are you? You've posted on this forum for Journey fanatics over five thousand times.

Most of those posts aren't from the Arnel-era. What few exist are mainly just political bullshit.

Also - this claim that you're above personalities is contradicted by the first line of your post...about how annoyed you are that Schon and Cain have placed one personality above all others including their own.

Talking about the band's 180 PR approach to launching this lineup is not the same thing as picking up the mantle for Arnel or Neal and vouching for them as good salt of the earth people, as if you truly know them.
I'm not the one "welling up" talking about Arnel's backstory - especially not when a simple turn of events might've resulted in Jeremey up there, or that fat guy from Vegas, or god knows who else.
There's no sense investing in the band's personalities.
I'm content to be a fan of the cd, catch a few shows, and that's that.

Yes - this is Monker's line too - despite the fact that he runs a Journey Digest group and a Journey MySpace page

I'm not familiar with his MySpace page, but I'm pretty sure Monker has already stated he hasn't updated the Digest in years.

You're no different TNC with your Walter Yetnikoff rating and your relentless debating in multi-page threads. Sure, you have taken a few breaks from the forum recently but the moment anything remotely significant happens with the band you're on here like a flash.

So all this 'I don't care' chat is hard to take seriously. Sounds a bit sulky if you ask me....

If you want to jawbone about the music - fine.
But you are personally championing Arnel at every turn. Going so far as to turn the least salacious of topics into argument fodder.
Just a few posts up you were saying Arnel's tale of woe was sadder than Augeri's.
Then you said Arnel's setlists had more new material than Augeri's etc.
It reminds me of me and Deano just a few years ago, or worse yet, the blind zealot Perry-cockroaches that used to infest this place.
Hell, at least they were arguing in favor of the vocal originator.
You are comparing the latest Perry replacement to another Perry replacement.
Really, who gives a tinker's damn?

New songs are great, but that's the water's edge for me.

[Red13JoePa]

worse yet, the blind zealot Perry-cockroaches that used to infest this place.

"Infest."

[NealIsGod]

Man, I kinda miss those days.

[Red13JoePa]

Man, I kinda miss those days.

They're still there, if you read back.

*wipes tear*


There were some HILARIOUS days back when this forum only had about a dozen or so regulars.

[NealIsGod]

Man, I kinda miss those days.

They're still there, if you read back.

*wipes tear*


There were some HILARIOUS days back when this forum only had about a dozen or so regulars.

Some epic battles, too. Board closures, brother against brother, you name it...

[Manjushri]

If you think that the keyboard stuff is lame, I can see why you like Red 13 and Generations. For me, if there's no keyboards, I'm not listening!

Sandiglam

I don't think they're lame, I just don't need to hear them on every track.
I think there's alot of valid material on 'Generations."
Eric has already mentioned a few.
I would include "Beyond the Clouds" and "A Better Life" to his list also.

I asked on another thread if anyone else thought JC was stuck in 1983, nobody replied, didn't even get flamed although I am sure I will now I agree with The Noble Cause somewhat as they are not lame, I happen to think they are just very dated. On the older songs fine, no problem as that was of the time. Change For The Better is a very good song but the synth bit makes me cringe, sounds great live though as JC is on rythym guitar and it works much better.

As for Red 13 and Generations, well I have never bothered with hearing/buying Red 13 as I haven't heard very much positive about it. As for Generations well it sounds like it has been recorded 20,0000 leagues under the sea! Faith In The Heartland is a great song and I can see why they re-recorded it and put it on the new album. Would have been nice if they could have recorded TPIYH and Better Life and stuck them on as bonus tracks for the Euro CD, as for the rest of the album, I have tried and tried to give it a good listen but apart from OOHW it's a real duffer in my opinion.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I asked on another thread if anyone else thought JC was stuck in 1983, nobody replied, didn't even get flamed although I am sure I will now I agree with The Noble Cause somewhat as they are not lame, I happen to think they are just very dated.

To some extent you're right, I just happen to think Cain views songwriting as a methodical scientific process.
He can whip up a ballad as good if not better than most, but he can only operate within that Open Arms cookie-cutter template.
"Change for the Better" is the only song where they mix it up, and that seems to have been orchestrated by Shirley.
What Cain and Schon really need is a third writer.

[BobbyinTN]

I thought "Trial By Fire" was a good, but not great release back in 1996. I thought "Arrival" was a brilliant release in 2001. Initially I didn't care much for Red 13 and Generations. On the heels of this new cd, another brilliant release in "Revelations", I thought maybe I should go back and give Red 13 and Generations another try. After all, how could a band put out such brilliance in 2001 and 2008, but not do the same in between there?

I tried, brothers, I tried. Red 13 is HORRIBLE, and Generations is not much better than that. I don't think I will EVER listen to either of them again. My wife, who is a HUGE Journey fan, said "Get this out of the cd player. It's so bad I'm getting sick to my stomach." The production is poor, but more importantly, the songs are just plain bad. Every once in a while, you hear something that might've made a solid melody, but it's rare. For the most part, they are just slow, boring, dull songs. I was curious if anyone else thought those two cds were terrible...

Thank God for Arnel Pineda! The new cd is brilliant!!!

Sandiglam

I agree. Arrival was better than Trial By Fire and Red 13 and Generations are probably, IMHO, the worst albums Journey has ever done.

I just made a compilation for my iPod and did include a couple of songs from Generations and one from Red 13. From Generations I liked "Believe" & "Knowing That You Love Me" and from Red 13 I liked "Walking Away From The Edge". I do love Revelations and think it's the best thing they've done since the 80's.

[jrnyman28]

I agree. Arrival was better than Trial By Fire and Red 13 and Generations are probably, IMHO, the worst albums Journey has ever done.

I just made a compilation for my iPod and did include a couple of songs from Generations and one from Red 13. From Generations I liked "Believe" & "Knowing That You Love Me" and from Red 13 I liked "Walking Away From The Edge". I do love Revelations and think it's the best thing they've done since the 80's.

So you would be a "ballad" person. No wonder you didn't like Red13 and Generations...

[BobbyinTN]

I agree. Arrival was better than Trial By Fire and Red 13 and Generations are probably, IMHO, the worst albums Journey has ever done.

I just made a compilation for my iPod and did include a couple of songs from Generations and one from Red 13. From Generations I liked "Believe" & "Knowing That You Love Me" and from Red 13 I liked "Walking Away From The Edge". I do love Revelations and think it's the best thing they've done since the 80's.

So you would be a "ballad" person. No wonder you didn't like Red13 and Generations...

I do love me some ballads, but I also love the harder stuff, but if it's not melodic or produced poorly, I have a hard time listening. I also like the mid-temp stuff. But ballads in minor keys are my soft spot.

[Saint John]

So you would be a "ballad" person. No wonder you didn't like Red13 and Generations...

Perhaps he/she just doesn't throw shit into a blender and expect it to taste like a milkshake.

[jrnyman28]

And just because you say it is shit don't make it so...

[Matthew]

When the band reformed in 1998 it was on the basis of Neal's guitar "talking Journey" and "wanting his band back", now they are groveling at the altar of Perry's voice and maundering on about "legacy sound" and "having the magic back" - and even including such obsequious drivel into their press releases.
Whether you choose to deny it or not, there's been a concerted outward PR effort this time around to capitalize on nostalgia and ride the crest of the Soprano's DSB finale.

Yes, maybe the PR spin was different back in 1998. But it was all bullshit nonetheless.

Those that say Augeri was hired on the basis of pulling off the Perry dozen, will get no argument from me.

And by saying this it shows that you know it was a load of old cobblers too....

No, you went so far as to say Azoff never pulled out the guns for the Augeri-lineup at all.

Okay - I'll concede that there was some activity from Azoff up until the time the dust settled after Arrival and the limitations of the new line-up became obvious...but then it just became a question of managing the decline...until Augeri left...when the activity started up again in a big way.

I'm not the one "welling up" talking about Arnel's backstory - especially not when a simple turn of events might've resulted in Jeremey up there, or that fat guy from Vegas, or god knows who else.

It looks like I'll have to pepper my sentences with emoticons to flag up when there's irony in a sentence. Or maybe I should draw you a picture? As for Jeremey and fat guys in Vegas and whatever else you're going on about...what have they got to do with the story of Arnel's childhood? My point was that - from a PR point of view - Arnel's story offers the stronger hook and the coverage he's received so far would seem to bear this out.

There's no sense investing in the band's personalities.
I'm content to be a fan of the cd, catch a few shows, and that's that.

And type out five thousand posts on a messageboard...You were more convincing TNC when you used to crack jokes about wasting your life away in "this godforsaken hole"...and other such comments about being an obsessive/compulsive fan. All this faux-suave 'hey, I just catch a few shows' talk is preposterous...

I'm pretty sure Monker has already stated he hasn't updated the Digest in years.

I thought he relaunched it last year. God knows I get enough e-mails from that group....

If you want to jawbone about the music - fine.
But you are personally championing Arnel at every turn.

Well, I've called the new album soulless and the live show like a Broadway musical version of the band.....but I guess you must have missed those posts.

It reminds me of me and Deano just a few years ago, or worse yet, the blind zealot Perry-cockroaches that used to infest this place.

And the cockroaches were right all along....

You are comparing the latest Perry replacement to another Perry replacement.

Er...yes...because we're discussing the last decade of the band's history. I'll happily talk to you about why Journey is half-assed and phoney without Perry on board and all the numerous ways in which Perry is more talented than Arnel, JSS or Chalfant or anyone else who has ever been in the frame to replace the irreplaceable. But maybe let's not go over that old ground again...

[jrnyman28]

But maybe let's not go over that old ground again...

Whew!!

[stevew2]

Generations had poor production and no flow to the album, but buried away are some great, great songs.

Ditto for Red13, Walkin Away From The Edge is just an incredible song

I agree, it got me thru some bad shit. Good piano hook, Steve A still had his voice,I still miss that dude