Somewhere There's Hope FTLOSM

[Gideon]

You don't see anyone making a credible argument that TBF aint their best record?

In terms of musicianship and songwriting. In terms of preference (i.e. "best" relative to simple taste)? It's completely subjective.

That's just crazy, man.

Nonsense.

TBF holds nothing to Evolution or Departure in terms of songwriting and musicianship.

You're kidding, right? With the exception of a few, the lyrics to most of the pre-Cain era songs blow. You're gonna throw the likes of "Do You Recall" and "Sweet and Simple" against the likes of "Easy to Fall" and "One More" in terms of lyrics and musicianship?

Now while I realize that most people don't like TBF, I've never heard the claim that the songwriting or musicianship were anything less than excellent. Most Journey fans that I've interacted with, on the other hand, may love the '70s era stuff for Perry's vocals and the arrangement, but conclude that compared to TBF, the lyrics were immature. Nor did Smith or Neal get to shine nearly as much on the '70s era stuff, whereas TBF has songs that unleash them.

Go listen to Feeling that Way or Walks like a Lady -

I have and aside from the vocals (which are technically better than Perry's circa TBF), I'm not impressed with the musicianship relative to TBF -- except for the Neal/Gregg face-off on the live version of Walks Like a Lady.

the jazz/fusion mix Journey had going on,

Now you've got me here, since those days it was simple about the band and not about the voice at all, allowing the musicians themselves to shine.

before mister Jonathan Cain jumped aboard, was freaking crazy

Actually, it would be before Mr. Steve Perry signed on.

But I got the whole "Steve Perry's voice matured" stuff, but still - crazy talk.

Nonsense, sir.

Now, maybe it's just me, but I honestly don't see a credible argument for Evolution winning a lyrics fight against the combined triple threat of Neal Schon, Steve Perry, and Jonathan Cain's collaborations. Compare their respective hits: "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'" vs. "When You Love A Woman"? One is a sonic masterpiece, a beautiful arrangement of vocals and instruments and lyrics. The other begins to tell an interesting story of betrayal and then dilutes into two minutes of "Na na's."

Personally, I think TBF leaves Evolution embarrassed in all ways except vocals.

Just my opinion, though.

[parfait]

parfait wrote:
You don't see anyone making a credible argument that TBF aint their best record?


In terms of musicianship and songwriting. In terms of preference (i.e. "best" relative to simple taste)? It's completely subjective.


Quote:
That's just crazy, man.


Nonsense.


Quote:
TBF holds nothing to Evolution or Departure in terms of songwriting and musicianship.




You're kidding, right? With the exception of a few, the lyrics to most of the pre-Cain era songs blow. You're gonna throw the likes of "Do You Recall" and "Sweet and Simple" against the likes of "Easy to Fall" and "One More" in terms of lyrics and musicianship?

Now while I realize that most people don't like TBF, I've never heard the claim that the songwriting or musicianship were anything less than excellent. Most Journey fans that I've interacted with, on the other hand, may love the '70s era stuff for Perry's vocals and the arrangement, but conclude that compared to TBF, the lyrics were immature. Nor did Smith or Neal get to shine nearly as much on the '70s era stuff, whereas TBF has songs that unleash them.


Quote:
Go listen to Feeling that Way or Walks like a Lady -


I have and aside from the vocals (which are technically better than Perry's circa TBF), I'm not impressed with the musicianship relative to TBF -- except for the Neal/Gregg face-off on the live version of Walks Like a Lady.


Quote:
the jazz/fusion mix Journey had going on,


Now you've got me here, since those days it was simple about the band and not about the voice at all, allowing the musicians themselves to shine.


Quote:
before mister Jonathan Cain jumped aboard, was freaking crazy


Actually, it would be before Mr. Steve Perry signed on.


Quote:
But I got the whole "Steve Perry's voice matured" stuff, but still - crazy talk.


Nonsense, sir.

Now, maybe it's just me, but I honestly don't see a credible argument for Evolution winning a lyrics fight against the combined triple threat of Neal Schon, Steve Perry, and Jonathan Cain's collaborations. Compare their respective hits: "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'" vs. "When You Love A Woman"? One is a sonic masterpiece, a beautiful arrangement of vocals and instruments and lyrics. The other begins to tell an interesting story of betrayal and then dilutes into two minutes of "Na na's."

Personally, I think TBF leaves Evolution embarrassed in all ways except vocals.

Just my opinion, though.

I get what you're saying man. But this discussion was not only about the lyrics. Lets say Bono makes a song about ow the corall reefs are getting utterly destroyed outside the australian coast while the only instrument being used in the song would be a Didgeridoo. Would the song have great lyrics? You bet your ass it would. Would it be a great song? No, it would most possibly blow.

So my point is, though pretty overdramatized, is that several factors make a great song, not just how teardropping or deep the lyrics is. And throwing in Loving, Touching, Squeezin against When you Love a woman, is crazy. Thats's like throwing David Spade against Batista in a fight to the death - not fair. TBF has some good tunes, like When you Love a woman and Forever in Blue, but it can't match up with the sheer feel Evolution or Departure have.

[Duncan]

Gideon, I have been reading your dogma on this thread and others and I was wondering what qualifies you to judge such things as musicianship and songwriting?

I believe that the only opinions worth listening to are informed opinions. In the absence of any authority on the subject, your views, as you revel in pointing out to others, are purely subjective. That is not to say that great delight can be derived from talking and reading utter bollocks.
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Now playing: Kimberly Frank - Sweeter Than The Dream

[Gideon]

Gideon, I have been reading your dogma on this thread and others and I was wondering what qualifies you to judge such things as musicianship and songwriting?

I believe that the only opinions worth listening to are informed opinions. In the absence of any authority on the subject, your views, as you revel in pointing out to others, are purely subjective. That is not to say that great delight can be derived from talking and reading utter bollocks.
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Now playing: Kimberly Frank - Sweeter Than The Dream

I grow very tired of people misinterpreting me. Every day yields someone else coming out of the woodwork to try to flame me without reading my fucking posts.

Personally, I think TBF leaves Evolution embarrassed in all ways except vocals.

Just my opinion, though.

^ You see this? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've got a reading comprehension level approaching a carrot and can understand what the phrases "personally" and "just my opinion, though" actually mean in the grand spectrum.

That is not to say that great delight can be derived from talking and reading utter bollocks.

Like I've told Michigan Girl, John from Boston, and now you, if you want to flame me, do it right, rather than demonstrate an appalling lack of reading comprehension from the post of someone who is, presumably, half your age. I'll handle the insults. What I won't tolerate is your stupidity. Try it again, and I'll just go straight to Andrew.

[Duncan]

Gideon. The only point I seek to make is that you frequently draw a distinction between what you consider fact and objective opinion. You talk of musicianship and songwriting as if you have some authority on the matter. I was simply asking if that is the case?

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Now playing: Jon & Vangelis - The Friends Of Mr. Cairo

[Gideon]

From me:

Seriously, preference is clearly subjective, but I don't see anyone making a credible argument that Trial By Fire was anything less than their finest albums in terms of musicianship and songwriting.

Also from me:

Not as well, anyways. But I make room for the possibility that I'm wrong.

Another one from me:

In terms of preference (i.e. "best" relative to simple taste)? It's completely subjective.

Yet another from me:

Now you've got me here, since those days it was simple about the band and not about the voice at all, allowing the musicians themselves to shine.

One more:

Now, maybe it's just me, but I honestly don't see a credible argument for Evolution winning a lyrics fight against the combined triple threat of Neal Schon, Steve Perry, and Jonathan Cain's collaborations.

And, finally, another one from me:

Personally, I think TBF leaves Evolution embarrassed in all ways except vocals.

Just my opinion, though.

Seven bolded qualifiers that mark either a concession or the fact that I was just stating my opinion. Nowhere did I try to pass off anything as fact. That you missed seven fucking disclaimers is something that boggles the mind. And don't give me the "Well, I was just asking! Sheesh!" line; it's bullshit. You tried to be an ass and didn't even bother to cover yours.

Try another fucking tactic next time. This one? Not your best.

Edit: Hell, if we count the "I don't see" line rather than "there isn't any," that brings the qualifier count up to eight.

[Duncan]

Gideon, there are a quite a few examples in this very thread, not to mention others, of you being very dogmatic about what you consider superior musicianship etc. However, I'm not going to trade quotes with you. Look, there are two types of opinion, informed and uniformed. Most opinion is uninformed, but there is nothing wrong with that, it is human nature. We all do it, if we didn't we would have nothing to talk about!

I was simply trying to understand if your opinions were based on something more substantial. I actually thought you might be a music student. However, rest assured I have now got the message that when you are being dogmatic you have no more clue what your talking about than the rest of us. We are all talking bollocks and that is just fine with me. Carry on.

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Now playing: Jon Butcher - Killing Floor

[Gideon]

Gideon, there are a quite a few examples in this very thread, not to mention others, of you being very dogmatic about what you consider superior musicianship etc. However, I'm not going to trade quotes with you. Look, there are two types of opinion, informed and uniformed. Most opinion is uninformed, but there is nothing wrong with that, it is human nature. We all do it, if we didn't we would have nothing to talk about!

I was simply trying to understand if your opinions were based on something more substantial. I actually thought you might be a music student. However, rest assured I have now got the message that when you are being dogmatic you have no more clue what your talking about than the rest of us. We are all talking bollocks and that is just fine with me. Carry on.

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Now playing: Jon Butcher - Killing Floor

Great. Perhaps if you'd been a little more diplomatic rather than throw out your own brand of dogma (and somehow missing an army of qualifiers), this chat would have gone a lot smoother.

[Duncan]

Gideon, there are a quite a few examples in this very thread, not to mention others, of you being very dogmatic about what you consider superior musicianship etc. However, I'm not going to trade quotes with you. Look, there are two types of opinion, informed and uniformed. Most opinion is uninformed, but there is nothing wrong with that, it is human nature. We all do it, if we didn't we would have nothing to talk about!

I was simply trying to understand if your opinions were based on something more substantial. I actually thought you might be a music student. However, rest assured I have now got the message that when you are being dogmatic you have no more clue what your talking about than the rest of us. We are all talking bollocks and that is just fine with me. Carry on.

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Now playing: Jon Butcher - Killing Floor

Great. Perhaps if you'd been a little more diplomatic rather than throw out your own brand of dogma (and somehow missing an army of qualifiers), this chat would have gone a lot smoother.

I thought it went pretty smoothly. Off out now. Keep posting Gideon, it helps me keep my mind off Madsplash's particular brand of bollocks:lol:



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Now playing: Jonathan Butler - High Tide

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Now playing: Jonathan Cain - Full Circle

[Gideon]

Gideon, there are a quite a few examples in this very thread, not to mention others, of you being very dogmatic about what you consider superior musicianship etc. However, I'm not going to trade quotes with you. Look, there are two types of opinion, informed and uniformed. Most opinion is uninformed, but there is nothing wrong with that, it is human nature. We all do it, if we didn't we would have nothing to talk about!

I was simply trying to understand if your opinions were based on something more substantial. I actually thought you might be a music student. However, rest assured I have now got the message that when you are being dogmatic you have no more clue what your talking about than the rest of us. We are all talking bollocks and that is just fine with me. Carry on.

----------------
Now playing: Jon Butcher - Killing Floor

Great. Perhaps if you'd been a little more diplomatic rather than throw out your own brand of dogma (and somehow missing an army of qualifiers), this chat would have gone a lot smoother.

I thought it went pretty smoothly. Off out now. Keep posting Gideon, it helps me keep my mind off Madsplash's particular brand of bollocks:lol:



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Now playing: Jonathan Butler - High Tide

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Now playing: Jonathan Cain - Full Circle

Right. You did smoothly demonstrate selective vision and lackluster reading comprehension. You'd do well to read without comment, Duncan.

[Duncan]

Gideon, there are a quite a few examples in this very thread, not to mention others, of you being very dogmatic about what you consider superior musicianship etc. However, I'm not going to trade quotes with you. Look, there are two types of opinion, informed and uniformed. Most opinion is uninformed, but there is nothing wrong with that, it is human nature. We all do it, if we didn't we would have nothing to talk about!

I was simply trying to understand if your opinions were based on something more substantial. I actually thought you might be a music student. However, rest assured I have now got the message that when you are being dogmatic you have no more clue what your talking about than the rest of us. We are all talking bollocks and that is just fine with me. Carry on.

----------------
Now playing: Jon Butcher - Killing Floor

Great. Perhaps if you'd been a little more diplomatic rather than throw out your own brand of dogma (and somehow missing an army of qualifiers), this chat would have gone a lot smoother.

I thought it went pretty smoothly. Off out now. Keep posting Gideon, it helps me keep my mind off Madsplash's particular brand of bollocks:lol:



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Now playing: Jonathan Butler - High Tide

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Now playing: Jonathan Cain - Full Circle

Right. You did smoothly demonstrate selective vision and lackluster reading comprehension. You'd do well to read without comment, Duncan.

Is that a fact or just your subjective opinion:lol: Seriously. I'm outta here. See you later.

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Now playing: Jonathan Cain - Women Never Forget

[Michigan Girl]

Bring them on.

Seriously, preference is clearly subjective, [/b]but I don't see anyone making a credible argument that Trial By Fire was anything less than their finest albums in terms of musicianship and songwriting. I mean, I'd much rather never have the TBF patented ballad/rock ratio, since I figure that TBF was the culmination of thousands of possibilities, probabilities, and experiences -- something that can never be pulled off again.

Not as well, anyways. But I make room for the possibility that I'm wrong.

You don't see anyone making a credible argument that TBF aint their best record? That's just crazy, man. TBF holds nothing to Evolution or Departure in terms of songwriting and musicianship. Go listen to Feeling that Way or Walks like a Lady - the jazz/fusion mix Journey had going on, before mister Jonathan Cain jumped aboard, was freaking crazy. But I got the whole "Steve Perry's voice matured" stuff, but still - crazy talk.

Exactly. And I don't bother trying to argue about what is the 'BEST' considering that I'm well aware everyone's opinion/likes/dislikes are different. It's a mute point. TBF represented a huge disappointment to me when it came out. While I believe the writing was deep and thoughtful on, I could argue just the same that it was so dark that it became a burden to listen to when compared to more inspired works from earlier days.

Good point.............. and I love TBF and all of the early stuff!!!

[Arianddu]

...if you want to flame me...

To quote a favoured movie: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Calling a disagreement on this level 'flaming' is like calling a candle a bushfire. Chill, babe, chill. You'll make people think you have a stick up your arse.

While I agree that reading comprehension is an important skill, I think you need to realise that it is vastly improved by the skills of the writer and the style in which you write. Legal documents are very precise - they are also very hard for most people to read with clear comprehension because they are written in a style that is not familiar to general communication. Try easing up on the formality; you aren't writing essays here. This is a forum message board - the appropriate style is quick, light-weight and easy to follow, with hefty doses of humour, sarcasm and outrage. Loosen up your style a little, try for a presentation that reads with a little less formal pomposity, and you might find you have fewer communication problems.

In other words, quit talking like you are at the debating society, and start talking like you are down the pub (or in your case, the local hangout at the mall.)

[Gideon]

...if you want to flame me...

To quote a favoured movie: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Calling a disagreement on this level 'flaming' is like calling a candle a bushfire. Chill, babe, chill. You'll make people think you have a stick up your arse.

While I agree that reading comprehension is an important skill, I think you need to realise that it is vastly improved by the skills of the writer and the style in which you write. Legal documents are very precise - they are also very hard for most people to read with clear comprehension because they are written in a style that is not familiar to general communication. Try easing up on the formality; you aren't writing essays here. This is a forum message board - the appropriate style is quick, light-weight and easy to follow, with hefty doses of humour, sarcasm and outrage. Loosen up your style a little, try for a presentation that reads with a little less formal pomposity, and you might find you have fewer communication problems.

In other words, quit talking like you are at the debating society, and start talking like you are down the pub (or in your case, the local hangout at the mall.)

My 'essays' are hardly the substance of legal documents or true upper end English. I've been told by more than one person around here that I'm the very definition of a "smartass", so I doubt I'm lacking in the sarcasm department. More to the point, Duncan isn't a moron and ignored eight qualifiers that were in average English, all saying that everything I typed was an opinion. I didn't hurl out some esoteric or abstract string of verbs or adjectives.

Or are you telling me that phrases like "subjective" and "in my opinion" and "personally" are all beyond the scope of these readers, many of whom are older, more educated, and smarter than me?

I doubt it. It's either horrid selective vision, lethargy, or someone wanting to pick a fight. None of the three are actually my problem, but theirs.

That said, thanks for the advice.

[Onestepper]

...if you want to flame me...

To quote a favoured movie: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Calling a disagreement on this level 'flaming' is like calling a candle a bushfire. Chill, babe, chill. You'll make people think you have a stick up your arse.

While I agree that reading comprehension is an important skill, I think you need to realise that it is vastly improved by the skills of the writer and the style in which you write. Legal documents are very precise - they are also very hard for most people to read with clear comprehension because they are written in a style that is not familiar to general communication. Try easing up on the formality; you aren't writing essays here. This is a forum message board - the appropriate style is quick, light-weight and easy to follow, with hefty doses of humour, sarcasm and outrage. Loosen up your style a little, try for a presentation that reads with a little less formal pomposity, and you might find you have fewer communication problems.

In other words, quit talking like you are at the debating society, and start talking like you are down the pub (or in your case, the local hangout at the mall.)

My 'essays' are hardly the substance of legal documents or true upper end English. I've been told by more than one person around here that I'm the very definition of a "smartass", so I doubt I'm lacking in the sarcasm department. More to the point, Duncan isn't a moron and ignored eight qualifiers that were in average English, all saying that everything I typed was an opinion. I didn't hurl out some esoteric or abstract string of verbs or adjectives.

Or are you telling me that phrases like "subjective" and "in my opinion" and "personally" are all beyond the scope of these readers, many of whom are older, more educated, and smarter than me?

I doubt it. It's either horrid selective vision, lethargy, or someone wanting to pick a fight. None of the three are actually my problem, but theirs. :wink:

That said, thanks for the advice.

Just three days ago I thought you seemed pretty funny and relatively cool. You've worn on me in that time to the point where you come off like an arrogant prick. You may not be. But you certainly are full of yourself at the very least.

Like someone else has now said to you numerous times (kind of ironic how you always point out things you said over and over that someone didn't evidently understand, but you can't seem to grasp the single concept yourself), chill out. It does a body, and a mind good.

[RedWingFan]

Fantastic song, fantastic album. Nuff said.

Totally AGREE!!!:wink:

Coming from a Michigan fan.....that's not exactly a stellar endorsement.....

Watch your mouth! I'm from Michigan, too!!

Are you from St. Louis?!?!?

No. I grew up in Grand Rapids.

Me too!

Small world...

Absolutely...I spent some time in the Big House, but I'm from one of the other Grand's!!!

Blanc???

[Duncan]

Gideon sent me a PM, I have tried to reply but for some reason the message seems stuck in my outbox. No reason why this shouldn't be shared.

Gideon:

The beauty of the internet is that immediate responses aren't necessary. You could have waited once you got done "going out" to respond, but that's neither here nor there. Just a little of wisdom I'll impart to you.

As far as the succession of people are concerned, I have little interest in being well liked here. I have my opinions and I do what I can to actually back them up, a practice that is very much uncommon around here. If that was an implication that introspection is required because half a dozen people have problems with me, I'll refer you to the appeal to the majority fallacy; what the majority thinks has little bearing on whether something is actually true (related to the many arguments here regarding album sales). Not sure you thought this one through Gid. Are you saying the majority of people have a problem with you?

On the other hand, I've pointed out where each and every one of my detractors have misread or ignored several statements of mine, you included (seven qualifiers in your case), which renders their obnoxious attitude rather moot. I have no problem people throwing pejoratives at me or disliking me; but they could do everyone the honor of actually having basis other than "Damn, I don't like what he's saying, I guess I'll ignore half of his opinion so I can bitch at him."

Which is exactly what you did. Which is why I have a problem with it and proceeded to treat you like a moron (though I'm fairly certain you aren't)

Me:


My dear Gideon, I see you fall into the trap of all those who are disillusioned, and dare I say it, consumed with their own self importance. You quote any reference that supports your case and ignore all those that do not.

I do not seek to question your opinions, they are of course perfectly valid and proper. The fallacy is that you presuppose that by prefixing/suffixing your bumptious comments with "in my opinion" obligates you from the reader's perception of your comments, and at the same time leaves you with the somewhat playground defence of "Can't you read?".

Let me give you an example, if I were to say "With all due respect, you opinions are are those of a moron" would you not think I thought you a moron? Here's another "Your powers of comprehension are those of a two year old, without prejudice". You cannot help but draw the conclusion that I consider you to have the intellectual powers of a two year old.

You fight your corner with much gusto young Gideon and for that I admire you, but the simple fact remains that your style of posting leads the reader to think that you are conceited and arrogant. These are not nice traits in a fellow human and I suspect this is the source of much of the angst against you.

Consider this. Would not your message be much more persuasive with a slightly lighter touch? Can I refer you to Arianddu's latest post, which mirrors my sentiment.

Finally, I don't want to debate this endlessly. I'm sure you can dissect this and cut and paste comments in to justify what ever stance you want to take, but the fact remains that you can say everything you want to say with a slightly lighter touch, with the result that people will listen, and I suspect for the most part agree with you.




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Now playing: Steelhouse Lane - Give It All To Me

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Now playing: Steelhouse Lane - Seven Seas

[Gideon]

Edited.

I'm not going to let this get out of hand. You have your opinions, I have my opinions. I'll keep this on PM.

Apologies for a smartass response.

[Onestepper]

Edited.

I'm not going to let this get out of hand. You have your opinions, I have my opinions. I'll keep this on PM.

Apologies for a smartass response.

Had not logged in for a couple of days, and when I did, this PM from Gideon was waiting for me. Enjoy.

I had less-than-courteous response to this on the thread, but cooler heads prevail and I decided to simply take it to PM.

Let's get one thing clear: I don't particularly give a shit about being popular or well liked on this board. This is a forum; a place to provide and receive opinions, to debate and discuss certain topics. That's it. This isn't some sort of e-high school where conformity or censorship are the currency of the day.

With that in mind, the bullshit that runs rampant on these forums is completely inexcusable. This bullshit that I have been on the receiving end of -- John from Boston, L~L~L, Michigan Girl, Voyager, Duncan, and your post -- is inexcusable.

I came here with the knowledge that my opinions, the ones where I hold Perry accountable for things most of his fanboys and fangirls don't (yet still respect his contributions and his voice), the ones where I acknowledge that Jonathan Cain is demonstrably a superior lyricist than anyone gives him credit for (LTS vs. Faithfully anyone?), and so on, would not be welcomed with proverbial open fucking arms.

That said, I don't troll. I'm not cruel. I don't say half the shit the likes of John from Boston or Deano say. Not even close. Am I sarcastic? Sure. Do I get a little mean when people don't bother to fucking quote me right or ignore statement after statement after statement after statement after statement after statement after statement to try to pick a fight? Absolutely.

Can you blame me?

There is no sense in it. NONE. Arianddu and Ehmwatt said "Well, maybe you should tone down the vocabulary." That's also bullshit; my vocabulary is, at best, college level. I know these people can read it, even if they don't use it in perpetuity. That's a transparent attempt to shove the blame for other people's fuck ups on me.

Duncan fucked up. Sorry. There are no two ways about it; he ignored seven clearly stated eighth grade qualifiers which all said what I posted was my personal opinion (you ignored it too, I guess), to try to level an accusation of egotism and self-absorption at me. Funny thing is, none of you (not even he) bothered to try to argue that point.

"Uhh... yeah... I guess I did ignore those things but... um... well ITS YOUR FAULT! YOUR VOCABULARY TRICKED ME!!1! OR... er... your ARROGANT!!1!"

Bullshit.

You've all tried to read too much into my posts, looking for something (something to attack, perhaps?), that you don't actually read them at all. Welcome to the internet. Text lacks vocal nuance or tone to interpret meanings. Why the fuck you've all been relying on that to judge me rather than the content of my statements, I'll never know. Looking for deeper meaning in a post is retarded: it's inexact, its imperfect, and it frequently leads readers to jump to conclusions.

So here's my stand: I'm not out to be well liked. What I am after is to be judged fairly on the content of my posts. I don't flame. I don't troll. I go out of my way to point out that what I say is my opinion and not fact and I have been more than patient with the lot of you who have not extended me the same courtesies.

Some advantages and traits not exhibited by the majority of MR's finest.

If that makes me arrogant, so fucking be it.

[S2M]

Edited.

I'm not going to let this get out of hand. You have your opinions, I have my opinions. I'll keep this on PM.

Apologies for a smartass response.

Had not logged in for a couple of days, and when I did, this PM from Gideon was waiting for me. Enjoy.

I had less-than-courteous response to this on the thread, but cooler heads prevail and I decided to simply take it to PM.

Let's get one thing clear: I don't particularly give a shit about being popular or well liked on this board. This is a forum; a place to provide and receive opinions, to debate and discuss certain topics. That's it. This isn't some sort of e-high school where conformity or censorship are the currency of the day.

With that in mind, the bullshit that runs rampant on these forums is completely inexcusable. This bullshit that I have been on the receiving end of -- John from Boston, L~L~L, Michigan Girl, Voyager, Duncan, and your post -- is inexcusable.

I came here with the knowledge that my opinions, the ones where I hold Perry accountable for things most of his fanboys and fangirls don't (yet still respect his contributions and his voice), the ones where I acknowledge that Jonathan Cain is demonstrably a superior lyricist than anyone gives him credit for (LTS vs. Faithfully anyone?), and so on, would not be welcomed with proverbial open fucking arms.

That said, I don't troll. I'm not cruel. I don't say half the shit the likes of John from Boston or Deano say. Not even close. Am I sarcastic? Sure. Do I get a little mean when people don't bother to fucking quote me right or ignore statement after statement after statement after statement after statement after statement after statement to try to pick a fight? Absolutely.

Can you blame me?

There is no sense in it. NONE. Arianddu and Ehmwatt said "Well, maybe you should tone down the vocabulary." That's also bullshit; my vocabulary is, at best, college level. I know these people can read it, even if they don't use it in perpetuity. That's a transparent attempt to shove the blame for other people's fuck ups on me.

Duncan fucked up. Sorry. There are no two ways about it; he ignored seven clearly stated eighth grade qualifiers which all said what I posted was my personal opinion (you ignored it too, I guess), to try to level an accusation of egotism and self-absorption at me. Funny thing is, none of you (not even he) bothered to try to argue that point.

"Uhh... yeah... I guess I did ignore those things but... um... well ITS YOUR FAULT! YOUR VOCABULARY TRICKED ME!!1! OR... er... your ARROGANT!!1!"

Bullshit.

You've all tried to read too much into my posts, looking for something (something to attack, perhaps?), that you don't actually read them at all. Welcome to the internet. Text lacks vocal nuance or tone to interpret meanings. Why the fuck you've all been relying on that to judge me rather than the content of my statements, I'll never know. Looking for deeper meaning in a post is retarded: it's inexact, its imperfect, and it frequently leads readers to jump to conclusions.

So here's my stand: I'm not out to be well liked. What I am after is to be judged fairly on the content of my posts. I don't flame. I don't troll. I go out of my way to point out that what I say is my opinion and not fact and I have been more than patient with the lot of you who have not extended me the same courtesies.

Some advantages and traits not exhibited by the majority of MR's finest.

If that makes me arrogant, so fucking be it.

Dude, PMs are private. Why even post it for all to see?

Not cool, man....

[Uno_up]

Dude, PMs are private. Why even post it for all to see?

Not cool, man....

Agreed...total bitch move.

[Gideon]

Don't worry about it.

Though, I would like to say that the private message wasn't to flame, but to express my opinion on why I felt I was being treated unfairly. No worries, though.

[Rhiannon]

Don't worry about it.

Though, I would like to say that the private message wasn't to flame, but to express my opinion on why I felt I was being treated unfairly. No worries, though.

It was a good write though, some good points.

[Gideon]

Don't worry about it.

Though, I would like to say that the private message wasn't to flame, but to express my opinion on why I felt I was being treated unfairly. No worries, though.

It was a good write though, some good points.

Thanks.

I was hoping someone other than myself could make some sense out of it. After I typed it and I looked back at all of the arguments I have been in and how many people disagreed with me, there were a couple of times when I thought to myself: "Damn, did I really miss something?" or "Maybe I have been completely wrong about this..."

I don't understand why private messages are being thrown out into public territory; the whole point of PMing them was to keep this off of the thread. But, like I said, it's water under the bridge.

Hopefully, this will be my final post on the subject. Don't want to derail this thread further.

[Arianddu]

While I agree that posting a PM isn't cool, I will say one thing: I didn't suggest you change your vocabulary, I suggested you change your style; there is a difference. Your last post seems to imply you are starting to understand that.

While I understand your frustration with people misinterpreting what you are saying, communication is a two-way street. If one person gets the wrong end of the stick, then maybe it's just them. But when many people read what you say differently to the way you meant it, then no matter how clearly you think you put, you failed to communicate effectively, and the onus is on you, not them.

You said "Text lacks vocal nuance or tone to interpret meanings." Very, very true - which is why style becomes so important. The way you write is how people base their view of you, which in turn affects how they then interpret what you are saying.

I'll give you an example: Blueskies has a style of posting that most people find very wearing. She tends not to use paragraphs, has her own favoured brand of punctuation, (the ever present '...' instead of full stops or commas) and tends to write a large amount that wanders around the point to a greater or lesser degree. She cops a lot of flack from people, because the way she writes gives the impression of someone who is whining for the sake of it, and is determined to have the last word. Moreover, her posts are very difficult to read, because the reader gets lost in the block of text, so what she is actually trying to say gets losts. And then she gets upset because people are misinterpreting what she has said, and makes another post that has the same issues, and on it goes.

There have been a few times that someone else has gone through one of her posts and put it into paragraphs. Nothing else. But suddenly the whole tone of her posts changes. The points she is trying to make become very clear and seem reasonable. She reads as someone who has an issue and is expressing it, but logically and with some kind of rationale. Her concerns are easy to see and are valid. No words were changed, just the presentation style.

Your style is very verbose and very formal. It reads as pompous and arogant in manner, so people assume that you are the same. It sets up a situation where people skim read and react to the 'sound bites' they pick up out of your post. When you then start blasting people for not being able to read your posts correctly, you emphasise that reading of your character. The fact is, your posts are hard to read, because they are long and I am afraid they are dull. You make good points, but they get lost because by the time one gets to them, the reader is already irritated and ready to react. That is a failure on your part in the communication cycle. You can tell people to improve their reading comprehension, but you miss the point; this is not a literature class, and no one here is reading for full comprehension and nuance. This is a forum message board, and people are doing the reading equivalent of talking in a noisy pub. You need to adapt your style to suit.

You have said you don't care if you make friends here; well, that's fine. You obviously do care that your views are heard, and interpreted correctly. You are not communicating them well. It has nothing to do with vocabulary - the are many of us here who use complex and varied vocabulary - and everything to do with your presentation and style of delivery.

Like I said before, you are not speaking to a debating club, or indeed to a court of law or a business meeting; you are speaking to a group of widely different people who hang out on-line to socialise and shoot the breeze. Chill a little, moderate the style, quit getting your panties in a twist when someone disagrees, and things will go more smoothly. That's how you can make your points and have them heard and understood.

[G.I.Jim]

While I agree that posting a PM isn't cool, I will say one thing: I didn't suggest you change your vocabulary, I suggested you change your style; there is a difference. Your last post seems to imply you are starting to understand that.

While I understand your frustration with people misinterpreting what you are saying, communication is a two-way street. If one person gets the wrong end of the stick, then maybe it's just them. But when many people read what you say differently to the way you meant it, then no matter how clearly you think you put, you failed to communicate effectively, and the onus is on you, not them.

You said "Text lacks vocal nuance or tone to interpret meanings." Very, very true - which is why style becomes so important. The way you write is how people base their view of you, which in turn affects how they then interpret what you are saying.

I'll give you an example: Blueskies has a style of posting that most people find very wearing. She tends not to use paragraphs, has her own favoured brand of punctuation, (the ever present '...' instead of full stops or commas) and tends to write a large amount that wanders around the point to a greater or lesser degree. She cops a lot of flack from people, because the way she writes gives the impression of someone who is whining for the sake of it, and is determined to have the last word. Moreover, her posts are very difficult to read, because the reader gets lost in the block of text, so what she is actually trying to say gets losts. And then she gets upset because people are misinterpreting what she has said, and makes another post that has the same issues, and on it goes.

There have been a few times that someone else has gone through one of her posts and put it into paragraphs. Nothing else. But suddenly the whole tone of her posts changes. The points she is trying to make become very clear and seem reasonable. She reads as someone who has an issue and is expressing it, but logically and with some kind of rationale. Her concerns are easy to see and are valid. No words were changed, just the presentation style.

Your style is very verbose and very formal. It reads as pompous and arogant in manner, so people assume that you are the same. It sets up a situation where people skim read and react to the 'sound bites' they pick up out of your post. When you then start blasting people for not being able to read your posts correctly, you emphasise that reading of your character. The fact is, your posts are hard to read, because they are long and I am afraid they are dull. You make good points, but they get lost because by the time one gets to them, the reader is already irritated and ready to react. That is a failure on your part in the communication cycle. You can tell people to improve their reading comprehension, but you miss the point; this is not a literature class, and no one here is reading for full comprehension and nuance. This is a forum message board, and people are doing the reading equivalent of talking in a noisy pub. You need to adapt your style to suit.

You have said you don't care if you make friends here; well, that's fine. You obviously do care that your views are heard, and interpreted correctly. You are not communicating them well. It has nothing to do with vocabulary - the are many of us here who use complex and varied vocabulary - and everything to do with your presentation and style of delivery.

Like I said before, you are not speaking to a debating club, or indeed to a court of law or a business meeting; you are speaking to a group of widely different people who hang out on-line to socialise and shoot the breeze. Chill a little, moderate the style, quit getting your panties in a twist when someone disagrees, and things will go more smoothly. That's how you can make your points and have them heard and understood.

That was an outstanding way to put your opinion of his posts into perspective. You have some great incite woman! Nobody could have said it better.

[Ehwmatt]

While I agree that posting a PM isn't cool, I will say one thing: I didn't suggest you change your vocabulary, I suggested you change your style; there is a difference. Your last post seems to imply you are starting to understand that.

While I understand your frustration with people misinterpreting what you are saying, communication is a two-way street. If one person gets the wrong end of the stick, then maybe it's just them. But when many people read what you say differently to the way you meant it, then no matter how clearly you think you put, you failed to communicate effectively, and the onus is on you, not them.

You said "Text lacks vocal nuance or tone to interpret meanings." Very, very true - which is why style becomes so important. The way you write is how people base their view of you, which in turn affects how they then interpret what you are saying.

I told him this before too and he lumped me in there with you - vocabulary is only part of it. I too was also talking about style and remembering your audience/venue. I think it was you who said earlier "think of it like talking in a pub." That's perfect.

Gideon's a good guy though, I like having him here.

[Arianddu]

While I agree that posting a PM isn't cool, I will say one thing: I didn't suggest you change your vocabulary, I suggested you change your style; there is a difference. Your last post seems to imply you are starting to understand that.

While I understand your frustration with people misinterpreting what you are saying, communication is a two-way street. If one person gets the wrong end of the stick, then maybe it's just them. But when many people read what you say differently to the way you meant it, then no matter how clearly you think you put, you failed to communicate effectively, and the onus is on you, not them.

You said "Text lacks vocal nuance or tone to interpret meanings." Very, very true - which is why style becomes so important. The way you write is how people base their view of you, which in turn affects how they then interpret what you are saying.

I told him this before too and he lumped me in there with you - vocabulary is only part of it. I too was also talking about style and remembering your audience/venue. I think it was you who said earlier "think of it like talking in a pub." That's perfect.

Gideon's a good guy though, I like having him here.

Agreed. A smart kid who I suspect has yet to meet his true peer group; College is going to be a blast for him socially when suddenly he isn't the only smart, mature-for-his-age kid around.