Where are They Now? Standard Tune, a Half or Full Step Down?

[steveo777]

Somebody, managment, or otherwise needs to get the $$$$ signs out of their eyes and protect their future. It's a thin line and it's being crossed. (maybe the line isn't so thin when greed takes precedence over preservation)

[FishinMagician]

Neal's sound is more bluesy rock than ever before and tuning a half step down actually gives the guitar a slightly more robust low end sound. Alot of you have posted comments about Neal's recent (past year or so) kick ass guitar sound, and detuning a half step down has probably contributed to this.

I'd have to hear it live to comment definitively. For me, I never quite feel "right" playing in Eb... something just sounds off to me when I try and play along to old EVH or Guns N Roses songs. I just like the sound of open chords in E standard.

you are right, it does feel different playing in Eb, and I think thats why Neal had so many F-ups ( not really alot but like 2 or 3, which is alot for neal) in the first couple of concerts where they tuned down.

[Aaron]

LD,

Thanks for the update and the follow up with Arnel, it's appreciated.

Aaron

How are the boys these day on tour? Are they still a half step down?

It seems to vary from show to show. Maybe they just see how Arnel feels on any given night, and just accomidate his vocals? I don't know, but I can't think of any other reason.

I don't think it has varied. I think the DVD Manila show this year was the only non-tuned down show. The rest of the spring tour and European tour and U.S. tour has been tuned-down a half step from what I understand. I'm not a hundred percent on it.

I chatted with Arnel about this. He said that all shows are 1/2 step down and that the dvd shoot was the only standard pitch gig of the whole tour. He seemed a little um, sad that it had to happen and said that it really bothers him that he couldnt do it in standard without shredding his voice and that getting older sucks. I told him he was lucky to be able to do it at all and that perry had to do the same thing on his solo tour which Arnel appeared to not know about. He then asked me for the youtube links which I provided. He told me it was a mutual agreement by all because they intend it to last. It appears they are being very cool with Arnel.

[Ehwmatt]

If they were tuning down any farther than a half step it'd be more complicated, and the Floyd might need to be adjusted initially, a good point I didn't think of since I've never owned a Floyd for longer than a month (prefer "vintage" tremolos so much more), but a mere half step down on a good guitar probably wouldn't require too much fuckin around with the set up past tuning it, especially since there's new strings every gig. I have no problems with intonation/pitch etc. when tuning down half a step with newer strings on a well set-up guitar like my Lukather or my American Strat.

Plus all that's moot, Neal's got plenty of guitars, they could keep half of them in E standard and half in E flat or whatever if they really wanted to make a "game time" tuning decision. Probably just more of a mess than they care to deal with... esp if the Whale needs to be tuned.

All good points, but I'll add, having been a floyd player for years (I no longer play anything other than fixed bridge or completely blocked trems)....the problem with floyds is that the spring tension is designed for a particular pitch. When you change the pitch a guitar is tuned to, the springs need to be adjusted. Same thing with neck relief. The truss rod needs to be adjusted as the guitar neck is seeing less pull by the strings. You will have to reduce the tension to have the same action/relief.

regarding intonation...I agree that it's practically a non-issue. It really depends on how much of a stickler Schon is regarding intonation. If they're using a peterson to tune the guitars, they'll see the difference. If they're using a boss stomper to tune the guitars, they wont see a difference at all...


btw, The Musicman's a friggin amazing instruments. I played a handful of Family Reserve Lukes and Petruccis the other day...and I was smitten. If I only had 2500 bucks to play with, I'd own one!

I had no idea you played guitars frank, that's cool. I'd like to have one Floyd guitar someday just because I can't quite pull off some of the real crazy Phil Collen or Brad Gillis whammy tricks with trems like my Luke... mainly the stuff that requires you to pull up big-time.

And yeah, tell me about those BFRs... my Luke is a standard, but still a gorgeous looking and sounding guitar. And people said active PUPs had no soul... the single coils on the neck and middle position just sound like a louder Strat with a little more snap to them. BFRs a little overkill to me, but my local GC has a beautiful Petrucci BFR that I'd buy in a heartbeat if I were made of money.

[Tomulator]

If they were tuning down any farther than a half step it'd be more complicated, and the Floyd might need to be adjusted initially, a good point I didn't think of since I've never owned a Floyd for longer than a month (prefer "vintage" tremolos so much more), but a mere half step down on a good guitar probably wouldn't require too much fuckin around with the set up past tuning it, especially since there's new strings every gig. I have no problems with intonation/pitch etc. when tuning down half a step with newer strings on a well set-up guitar like my Lukather or my American Strat.

Plus all that's moot, Neal's got plenty of guitars, they could keep half of them in E standard and half in E flat or whatever if they really wanted to make a "game time" tuning decision. Probably just more of a mess than they care to deal with... esp if the Whale needs to be tuned.

All good points, but I'll add, having been a floyd player for years (I no longer play anything other than fixed bridge or completely blocked trems)....the problem with floyds is that the spring tension is designed for a particular pitch. When you change the pitch a guitar is tuned to, the springs need to be adjusted. Same thing with neck relief. The truss rod needs to be adjusted as the guitar neck is seeing less pull by the strings. You will have to reduce the tension to have the same action/relief.

regarding intonation...I agree that it's practically a non-issue. It really depends on how much of a stickler Schon is regarding intonation. If they're using a peterson to tune the guitars, they'll see the difference. If they're using a boss stomper to tune the guitars, they wont see a difference at all...


btw, The Musicman's a friggin amazing instruments. I played a handful of Family Reserve Lukes and Petruccis the other day...and I was smitten. If I only had 2500 bucks to play with, I'd own one!

I had no idea you played guitars frank, that's cool. I'd like to have one Floyd guitar someday just because I can't quite pull off some of the real crazy Phil Collen or Brad Gillis whammy tricks with trems like my Luke... mainly the stuff that requires you to pull up big-time.

And yeah, tell me about those BFRs... my Luke is a standard, but still a gorgeous looking and sounding guitar. And people said active PUPs had no soul... the single coils on the neck and middle position just sound like a louder Strat with a little more snap to them. BFRs a little overkill to me, but my local GC has a beautiful Petrucci BFR that I'd buy in a heartbeat if I were made of money.

I own a Luke myself...Candy Apple Red...amazing instrument!

[Ehwmatt]

I own a Luke myself...Candy Apple Red...amazing instrument!

I know you do! You helped encourage me to (eventually) get one.

[stevew2]

I think it's odd that they would bounce back and forth between tuning down and concert pitch. Hell, the guitar and piano techs would go fucking nuts trying to re-intonate and re-tune the instruments.

There aren't many folks out there that can tell the difference from sitting in the audience, unless they have an ipod handy to reference standard pitch against what they're playing at...

I think it's a senseless thing to fixate on. Tuning down will save arnel's voice and prolong his tenure with the band a bit...so it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Hell, when Perry did his 94 tour, they tuned down...and did so without the usenet groups hawking on about it....

Frank bro...they don't have to tune the instruments down to "detune". The notes are already there. They would just have to play them differently.

Of course...they could tune the guitar down as you say, but why would they?

They do tune down, because it's far easier to play the instruments tuned down, then trying to figure out the other chord progressions. They would make mistakes, being used to playing them the same way for, what is it, 56 year now?

I bet they don't retune the piano for sure...they guitar...MAYBE...but I doubt it.

They are good enough musicians to play the songs without retuning the instruments.

But I will find out for sure shortly.

they are not good enough to play everysong 1/2 step down . The fingering on the on the guitar would be fucked up and Friga would piss his panties if he had to play Open Arms in D flat .Once you tune down you stay down

[Rockindeano]

I think it's odd that they would bounce back and forth between tuning down and concert pitch. Hell, the guitar and piano techs would go fucking nuts trying to re-intonate and re-tune the instruments.

There aren't many folks out there that can tell the difference from sitting in the audience, unless they have an ipod handy to reference standard pitch against what they're playing at...

I think it's a senseless thing to fixate on. Tuning down will save arnel's voice and prolong his tenure with the band a bit...so it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Hell, when Perry did his 94 tour, they tuned down...and did so without the usenet groups hawking on about it....

Frank bro...they don't have to tune the instruments down to "detune". The notes are already there. They would just have to play them differently.

Of course...they could tune the guitar down as you say, but why would they?

They do tune down, because it's far easier to play the instruments tuned down, then trying to figure out the other chord progressions. They would make mistakes, being used to playing them the same way for, what is it, 56 year now?

I bet they don't retune the piano for sure...they guitar...MAYBE...but I doubt it.

They are good enough musicians to play the songs without retuning the instruments.

But I will find out for sure shortly.

they are not good enough to play everysong 1/2 step down . The fingering on the on the guitar would be fucked up and Friga would piss his panties if he had to play Open Arms in D flat .Once you tune down you stay down

Naw, Neal could do it, he's that good. Bruce takes requests every night and they detune for certain song requests, and they have 3 guitarists and pull it off. Neal could do it and as said earlier, Cain could push a button and be detuned instantly. Valory is the one who I would worry about, but bass playing is the easiest of the lot, so he could probably pull it off too.

I would think they could just play a song in b rather that retune the entire fucking guitar rack.

[stevew2]

I think it's odd that they would bounce back and forth between tuning down and concert pitch. Hell, the guitar and piano techs would go fucking nuts trying to re-intonate and re-tune the instruments.

There aren't many folks out there that can tell the difference from sitting in the audience, unless they have an ipod handy to reference standard pitch against what they're playing at...

I think it's a senseless thing to fixate on. Tuning down will save arnel's voice and prolong his tenure with the band a bit...so it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Hell, when Perry did his 94 tour, they tuned down...and did so without the usenet groups hawking on about it....

Frank bro...they don't have to tune the instruments down to "detune". The notes are already there. They would just have to play them differently.

Of course...they could tune the guitar down as you say, but why would they?

They do tune down, because it's far easier to play the instruments tuned down, then trying to figure out the other chord progressions. They would make mistakes, being used to playing them the same way for, what is it, 56 year now?

I bet they don't retune the piano for sure...they guitar...MAYBE...but I doubt it.

They are good enough musicians to play the songs without retuning the instruments.

But I will find out for sure shortly.

they are not good enough to play everysong 1/2 step down . The fingering on the on the guitar would be fucked up and Friga would piss his panties if he had to play Open Arms in D flat .Once you tune down you stay down

Naw, Neal could do it, he's that good. Bruce takes requests every night and they detune for certain song requests, and they have 3 guitarists and pull it off. Neal could do it and as said earlier, Cain could push a button and be detuned instantly. Valory is the one who I would worry about, but bass playing is the easiest of the lot, so he could probably pull it off too.

I would think they could just play a song in b rather that retune the entire fucking guitar rack.

neal would just tune down, Friga could press a button, but the piano would have to be midied to a synth with would be detuned and you would really be hearing the real piano, They go thru all that off and on, plus the lipped background vocals,why would Arnel want to sing higher than he has to anyway? What he make 10,000 a week?

[Rockindeano]

I think it's odd that they would bounce back and forth between tuning down and concert pitch. Hell, the guitar and piano techs would go fucking nuts trying to re-intonate and re-tune the instruments.

There aren't many folks out there that can tell the difference from sitting in the audience, unless they have an ipod handy to reference standard pitch against what they're playing at...

I think it's a senseless thing to fixate on. Tuning down will save arnel's voice and prolong his tenure with the band a bit...so it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Hell, when Perry did his 94 tour, they tuned down...and did so without the usenet groups hawking on about it....

Frank bro...they don't have to tune the instruments down to "detune". The notes are already there. They would just have to play them differently.

Of course...they could tune the guitar down as you say, but why would they?

They do tune down, because it's far easier to play the instruments tuned down, then trying to figure out the other chord progressions. They would make mistakes, being used to playing them the same way for, what is it, 56 year now?

I bet they don't retune the piano for sure...they guitar...MAYBE...but I doubt it.

They are good enough musicians to play the songs without retuning the instruments.

But I will find out for sure shortly.

they are not good enough to play everysong 1/2 step down . The fingering on the on the guitar would be fucked up and Friga would piss his panties if he had to play Open Arms in D flat .Once you tune down you stay down

Naw, Neal could do it, he's that good. Bruce takes requests every night and they detune for certain song requests, and they have 3 guitarists and pull it off. Neal could do it and as said earlier, Cain could push a button and be detuned instantly. Valory is the one who I would worry about, but bass playing is the easiest of the lot, so he could probably pull it off too.

I would think they could just play a song in b rather that retune the entire fucking guitar rack.

neal would just tune down, Friga could press a button, but the piano would have to be midied to a synth with would be detuned and you would really be hearing the real piano, They go thru all that off and on, plus the lipped background vocals,why would Arnel want to sing higher than he has to anyway? What he make 10,000 a week?

The question is, Does Cain really have a piano in that shell? Many think it's just a fuckin synth already anyway.

[stevew2]

I think it's odd that they would bounce back and forth between tuning down and concert pitch. Hell, the guitar and piano techs would go fucking nuts trying to re-intonate and re-tune the instruments.

There aren't many folks out there that can tell the difference from sitting in the audience, unless they have an ipod handy to reference standard pitch against what they're playing at...

I think it's a senseless thing to fixate on. Tuning down will save arnel's voice and prolong his tenure with the band a bit...so it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Hell, when Perry did his 94 tour, they tuned down...and did so without the usenet groups hawking on about it....

Frank bro...they don't have to tune the instruments down to "detune". The notes are already there. They would just have to play them differently.

Of course...they could tune the guitar down as you say, but why would they?

They do tune down, because it's far easier to play the instruments tuned down, then trying to figure out the other chord progressions. They would make mistakes, being used to playing them the same way for, what is it, 56 year now?

I bet they don't retune the piano for sure...they guitar...MAYBE...but I doubt it.

They are good enough musicians to play the songs without retuning the instruments.

But I will find out for sure shortly.

they are not good enough to play everysong 1/2 step down . The fingering on the on the guitar would be fucked up and Friga would piss his panties if he had to play Open Arms in D flat .Once you tune down you stay down

Naw, Neal could do it, he's that good. Bruce takes requests every night and they detune for certain song requests, and they have 3 guitarists and pull it off. Neal could do it and as said earlier, Cain could push a button and be detuned instantly. Valory is the one who I would worry about, but bass playing is the easiest of the lot, so he could probably pull it off too.

I would think they could just play a song in b rather that retune the entire fucking guitar rack.

neal would just tune down, Friga could press a button, but the piano would have to be midied to a synth with would be detuned and you would really be hearing the real piano, They go thru all that off and on, plus the lipped background vocals,why would Arnel want to sing higher than he has to anyway? What he make 10,000 a week?

The question is, Does Cain really have a piano in that shell? Many think it's just a fuckin synth already anyway.

I think Friga does,of course he could have it conncted to anything he wants.Now that he sits,he problably has a little hole that he can put his pecker in for added effects duting his solos

[steveo777]

I think it's odd that they would bounce back and forth between tuning down and concert pitch. Hell, the guitar and piano techs would go fucking nuts trying to re-intonate and re-tune the instruments.

There aren't many folks out there that can tell the difference from sitting in the audience, unless they have an ipod handy to reference standard pitch against what they're playing at...

I think it's a senseless thing to fixate on. Tuning down will save arnel's voice and prolong his tenure with the band a bit...so it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Hell, when Perry did his 94 tour, they tuned down...and did so without the usenet groups hawking on about it....

Frank bro...they don't have to tune the instruments down to "detune". The notes are already there. They would just have to play them differently.

Of course...they could tune the guitar down as you say, but why would they?

They do tune down, because it's far easier to play the instruments tuned down, then trying to figure out the other chord progressions. They would make mistakes, being used to playing them the same way for, what is it, 56 year now?

I bet they don't retune the piano for sure...they guitar...MAYBE...but I doubt it.

They are good enough musicians to play the songs without retuning the instruments.

But I will find out for sure shortly.

they are not good enough to play everysong 1/2 step down . The fingering on the on the guitar would be fucked up and Friga would piss his panties if he had to play Open Arms in D flat .Once you tune down you stay down

Naw, Neal could do it, he's that good. Bruce takes requests every night and they detune for certain song requests, and they have 3 guitarists and pull it off. Neal could do it and as said earlier, Cain could push a button and be detuned instantly. Valory is the one who I would worry about, but bass playing is the easiest of the lot, so he could probably pull it off too.

I would think they could just play a song in b rather that retune the entire fucking guitar rack.

neal would just tune down, Friga could press a button, but the piano would have to be midied to a synth with would be detuned and you would really be hearing the real piano, They go thru all that off and on, plus the lipped background vocals,why would Arnel want to sing higher than he has to anyway? What he make 10,000 a week?

The question is, Does Cain really have a piano in that shell? Many think it's just a fuckin synth already anyway.

Bullshit. What would be the point in buying that new Faz just to gut the thing out. Besides, anyone with an ear should be able to tell the difference between real piano and a synth. I can. The piano is there but it's midi'd in. What would be the point in dragging a big assed grand piano case around. That would be like wearing a fucking fake rolex, an indication of poor economics and an ego writing checks the player can't cash.

[strangegrey]

The question is, Does Cain really have a piano in that shell? Many think it's just a fuckin synth already anyway.

I can't speak to now, but back in 2001, it was a real Yamaha piano that was actually used. The only difference was that it had midi-triggers on the keys...so that you could effectively mix in a synth/pad sound with the actual piano sound. An example of where this mixture is used, is the beginning riff of Ask The Lonely. That piano part has a synth sound that's doubling what you hear on the piano....cain's using the midi triggers to drive that synth/pad sound while he plays the real part on the piano.


Granted, I suppose, from a technical standpoint, one could have the strings either removed or deadened...and just plug the piano into a sampler for it's sounds....effectively making the Whale a very heavy and unnecessary stage prop. Perhaps sometime between 2001 and now, they yanked out the guts of the thing and did exactly what you refer to...my level of knowledge regarding this shit ends in 2001...whereas your access to the this sorta shit (and correct me if I'm wrong) seems to extend from that point onward....If you ever find out the answer, I'd be real interested in hearing about it.

you are right, it does feel different playing in Eb, and I think thats why Neal had so many F-ups ( not really alot but like 2 or 3, which is alot for neal) in the first couple of concerts where they tuned down.

Im not sure if I think thats the case. I suspect Neal is professional enough to be able to cope with the difference with relative ease.

The difference in apparent string tension between tuning a guitar in standard pitch and 1/2 down, is comparable to the difference in feel between switching from a Les Paul (24.75" scale) and a strat (25.5" scale). The different scales result in a different string tension. We've seen Neal switch between a strat and a les paul effortlessly.


I might just be that Neal was adjusting to something else in the change or he was having some off nights...who knows. But maybe you're right. again, who knows....I'd love to see Neal answer that one in an interview. "Neal, why were you fucking up those first few days"

[Ehwmatt]

Naw, Neal could do it, he's that good. Bruce takes requests every night and they detune for certain song requests, and they have 3 guitarists and pull it off. Neal could do it and as said earlier, Cain could push a button and be detuned instantly. Valory is the one who I would worry about, but bass playing is the easiest of the lot, so he could probably pull it off too.

I would think they could just play a song in b rather that retune the entire fucking guitar rack.

Dean, I THINK you're saying Neal could transpose half step down without retuning the guitar, which I'm sure he could, especially with a rehearsal or two. But, the thing is (and I don't THINK you play guitar, sorry if you do) is that many of Journey's songs use open chords in the first position (e.g. the aforementioned Stone In Love main riff) or use the low E note (i.e. the E pedal tone in the verse riff in Don't Stop Believing).

The lowest notes in those open chords and low E note are simply not there in standard tuning if they desire to transpose the song down... it's physically impossible to play the same riff/chord with the same tonality without downtuning in a lot of Neal's part's cases. He could play the chords in another position, but it would sound awkward and downright wrong in most cases... they'd be up an octave or missing the "ring" of open strings. For example, the low E pedal tone in DSB in Eb wouldn't be there... he'd have to play it on the sixth fret of the 5th string, which would be an octave up and also make the rest of the riff very awkward, finger positioning wise.

[stevew2]

Naw, Neal could do it, he's that good. Bruce takes requests every night and they detune for certain song requests, and they have 3 guitarists and pull it off. Neal could do it and as said earlier, Cain could push a button and be detuned instantly. Valory is the one who I would worry about, but bass playing is the easiest of the lot, so he could probably pull it off too.

I would think they could just play a song in b rather that retune the entire fucking guitar rack.

Dean, I THINK you're saying Neal could transpose half step down without retuning the guitar, which I'm sure he could, especially with a rehearsal or two. But, the thing is (and I don't THINK you play guitar, sorry if you do) is that many of Journey's songs use open chords in the first position (e.g. the aforementioned Stone In Love main riff) or use the low E note (i.e. the E pedal tone in the verse riff in Don't Stop Believing).

The lowest notes in those open chords and low E note are simply not there in standard tuning if they desire to transpose the song down... it's physically impossible to play the same riff/chord with the same tonality without downtuning in a lot of Neal's part's cases. He could play the chords in another position, but it would sound awkward and downright wrong in most cases... they'd be up an octave or missing the "ring" of open strings. For example, the low E pedal tone in DSB in Eb wouldn't be there... he'd have to play it on the sixth fret of the 5th string, which would be an octave up and also make the rest of the riff very awkward, finger positioning wise.

so true

[JohnH]

Most of Keep On Runnin' with Deen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii0G9Xv0cPs

So this is tuned down a 1/2 step. My ears must be bad. Sounds pretty spot on to me...Anyone???

Why would they play in a lower key with Deen? He doesn't sing much and doesn't need them to, to save his voice.

Yes I just checked with a keyboard- this is tuned down a half step.