Eclipse Billboard - Flop

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Postby S2M » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:30 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Gideon wrote:The same style tenor, the same style guitar, the uplifting lyrics and melodies. It's just that there's more to it than that and they're branching out, exploring dimensions that had only been lightly touched on other albums: 'One More', 'Edge of the Moment', 'The Time', etc.


I think you mean "Edge of the Blade." Otherwise, that's a good way of explaining it, and what I hear too.


There is nothing on Eclipse that even comes close to the brilliance of Edge of the Blade, Frontiers, or Troubled Child....
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Postby Gideon » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:33 am

S2M wrote:There is nothing on Eclipse that even comes close to the brilliance of Edge of the Blade, Frontiers, or Troubled Child....


Nah, 'Edge of the Moment', 'Chain of Love', 'Resonate' are all on par with or surpass those songs.
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Postby S2M » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:36 am

Gideon wrote:
S2M wrote:There is nothing on Eclipse that even comes close to the brilliance of Edge of the Blade, Frontiers, or Troubled Child....


Nah, 'Edge of the Moment', 'Chain of Love', 'Resonate' are all on par with or surpass those songs.


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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:45 am

S2M wrote:There is nothing on Eclipse that even comes close to the brilliance of Edge of the Blade, Frontiers, or Troubled Child....


Just as no fan in their right mind would say that Arrival is better than Escape, I never said anything about Eclipse surpassing Frontiers. Both are still great albums.
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Postby slucero » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:14 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
slucero wrote:On Eclipse - I hear two listenable songs: "Somebody" and "Anything Is Possible"....


In other words, the two most safe, commercial tracks on the album. Songs like "Edge of the Moment" and "Human Feel" don't have huge hit-you-over-the-head Journey choruses, but they're musically interesting and have a great groove. Lots of replay value.



Maybe in your words... I just said listenable...


Purple Haze is listenable....

Smoke on the Water is listenable....

Too Hot To Handle is listenable....


All 3 have musical & lyrical hooks and musical & lyrical melodies... yet most wouldn't call those songs safe or commercial....


"Somebody" and "Anything Is Possible" have some of those qualities... but still fall short... the rest of the songs do the same, its just that "Somebody" and "Anything Is Possible" are the best 2 of the bunch..

The main thing lacking on Eclipse is songwriting, which has always been Journeys strength. Granted NS said they weren't gonna do that this time.. write the arena rockers and ballads... yet to me that's akin to asking a Eminem to sing his whole album instead of rapping it.

There is nothing on this that makes me think or smile. No fun or spontaneity ... it sounds scattered and incomplete... almost as if they got 3/4ths of the way there and Neal said.. "Fuck it, its' done"...

Eclipse is Neals album, with input from JC... and maybe its about time... he's been there long enough, he should do one the way he wants to without compromising.. .. (ironically I can listen to Neals solo stuff all day)...

But to my ears, Eclipse ain't Journey.

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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:45 am

slucero wrote:But to my ears, Eclipse ain't Journey.

Like other dissapointed fans, you're mentioning the lack of "arena rockers" and "ballads." "Arrival" and "TBF" are both examples of Journey albums trying to hit a studio-imposed quota of AC material. "Revelation" is also a case of the band trying really, really hard (perhaps too hard?) to meet public expectations of who they are, or what they should sound like. Eclipse is a far more natural effort. Doesn't feel forced. I'd compare it to the Rolie/Perry albums of the 70s. It's just good music, some of which easily falls into the category of arena rock, and the rest, less so.
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Postby slucero » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:24 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
slucero wrote:But to my ears, Eclipse ain't Journey.

Like other dissapointed fans, you're mentioning the lack of "arena rockers" and "ballads." "Arrival" and "TBF" are both examples of Journey albums trying to hit a studio-imposed quota of AC material. "Revelation" is also a case of the band trying really, really hard (perhaps too hard?) to meet public expectations of who they are, or what they should sound like. Eclipse is a far more natural effort. Doesn't feel forced. I'd compare it to the Rolie/Perry albums of the 70s. It's just good music, some of which easily falls into the category of arena rock, and the rest, less so.


Disappointed would mean i had high expectations for this.. once I heard Neal was making his album I pretty much knew it wouldn't have any of the Legacy era sound... as his playing has moved more towards playing for himself and less for the song... Neal is at his best when he's forced to compromise. Their best songs reflect that. What I didn't expect was such a huge absence of traditionally excellent songwriting...

Actually... what I said was this:

The main thing lacking on Eclipse is songwriting, which has always been Journeys strength. Granted NS said they weren't gonna do that this time.. write the arena rockers and ballads... yet to me that's akin to asking a Eminem to sing his whole album instead of rapping it.


meaning.. Journey is trying to be something they're not...

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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:36 am

slucero wrote:meaning.. Journey is trying to be something they're not...


It's really not that drastic of a reinvention. The songs are now guitar driven, instead of keys, and there's a few melody change-ups. You make it sound like they've gone country or something.
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Postby SF-Dano » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:45 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
slucero wrote:meaning.. Journey is trying to be something they're not...


It's really not that drastic of a reinvention. The songs are now guitar driven, instead of keys, and there's a few melody change-ups. You make it sound like they've gone country or something.


I agree.

I don't want to be putting words in anybody's mouth, but I get the feeling that this record is just too "hard/heavy" for a lot of folks here who have come to love the "pop" Journey. For my tastes, this is the style of album I have been wanting from this band since about 1985.
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Postby S2M » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:49 am

SF-Dano wrote:
The_Noble_Cause wrote:
slucero wrote:meaning.. Journey is trying to be something they're not...


It's really not that drastic of a reinvention. The songs are now guitar driven, instead of keys, and there's a few melody change-ups. You make it sound like they've gone country or something.


I agree.

I don't want to be putting words in anybody's mouth, but I get the feeling that this record is just too "hard/heavy" for a lot of folks here who have come to love the "pop" Journey. For my tastes, this is the style of album I have been wanting from this band since about 1985.


There's a difference. You can be hard/heavy AND accessible at the same time. Look at Hardline. This is just a huge jumble of WTF are they trying to accomplish?
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Postby slucero » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:10 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
slucero wrote:meaning.. Journey is trying to be something they're not...


It's really not that drastic of a reinvention. The songs are now guitar driven, instead of keys, and there's a few melody change-ups. You make it sound like they've gone country or something.


again... no... what you are inferring is not what I said.

Of A Lifetime, Spaceman, Look Into The Future... all exhibit lyrical and musical melody... yet they are from Journey's "progressive" largely about-Neal era... it is those qualities that are absent from the more progressive sounding songs on Eclipse...

Dynamics.... counterpoint... I hear none of that... musically there is some melody.. but it is all heavy and only as a setup for solos... lyrically I'm not hearing anything melodic.. Arnel sings GREAT, he shines technically.. but the lyrical melodies are absent.. and he's only singing what was written for him to sing..

Something is missing.. and when I listen to early, what most say is progressive Journey... I hear what is missing for this heavier style of Journey music. And because it is missing - it doesn't sound like Journey... at least to me.

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Postby S2M » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:15 am

To me, what they are missing is that young drive that new acts have...the desire to prove something to the industry/fans. They really have nothing to play for anymore. You can tell they are just phoning it in. While the chops are still there, the cohesive compostitions, and vocal melodies are not. Arnel couldn't sing his way out of a traffic ticket....and it really isn't his fault. He doesn't have his own identity. Joining an established group this late in the game was the death knell.
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Postby separate_wayz » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:43 am

Hey guys, been a long while since I posted on here. Just wanted to put in my 2-cents about Eclipse.

Let me give some context to my opinion. Had very high hopes when I heard that it was going to be a "harder" album. I assumed that it meant more songs like Higher Place, All The Things, Live and Breathe, The Place in Your Heart, Out of Harms Way, and Wildest Dream, and fewer songs like All The Way, Lifetime of Dreams, and When You Love a Woman. I happen to like both the harder stuff (even liked Peephole by Soul Sirkus, a lot), but I also like the power ballads too.

I also happen to find something to like about Journey at all stages of their career. In my car, I have in the CD-changer three CDs with Journey. These are CDs that I burned on my own. The first has 12 Journey tunes from 1973-1980. The second has 12 Journey tunes from 1981-1997. The third has 12 Journey tunes from 1998-2008. My point is: I find a lot to like from every era of Journey.

All that being said, I'm having a tough time finding a lot to like on Eclipse. When I first heard the mp3 samples, I was concerned. But I went out and bought the CD on the first day it was offered. I've listened to it about five times. There are bits and pieces scattered here-and-there that seem to hold promise. But bottom line, the album just doesn't grab me, at all. If I heard it on the radio and didn't know it was Journey, I can't imagine that I wouldn't immediately reach for the scan button. I'm not in any way eager to give a critical (or just lackluster) review.

Where to begin. For me, it's the song structure, the lyrics, the overbearing guitar (that sounds anachronistic, to be honest), and a number of other things. The bottom line is: they just don't seem like good songs to me. By analogy, listening to it reminded me of how I felt when I watched Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace in 1999. After eagerly waiting years for this movie, I was left feeling unmoved and disinterested. In fact, I was checking my watch 20 minutes into the movie. Although the marquee said “Star Wars”, it had none of the energy, the familiarity, and the excitement of the original releases. It felt like Star Wars in name only.

My analogy may be a relevant one for the Journey Eclipse album. It’s been pointed out that George Lucas’s wife played a substantial role in advising him during the original Star Wars movies, making suggestions about edits, the story line, etc. When Lucas and his wife divorced after the original three Star Wars movies were made, there was no one with standing and credibility with George Lucas to speak bluntly to him about his filmmaking and make suggestions that carried the weight that his ex-wife did. The second three Star Wars films do not disprove this notion.

I think you can by extension you can see the point that I’m making about the Eclipse album. If Neal was hell-bent on making this album, I don’t think there was anyone with enough standing to tell him “no”. If Neal and Jon think that they can make in-roads into Europe with his album, great – I hope they succeed. If they think they can appeal to a certain rock market in this country with this album, great – I hope it works. If they play these songs live, and they sound better live than recorded, great -- I'll revisit them then. But for right now, the album, sorry to say, doesn’t work for me.
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Postby Eric » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:55 am

separate_wayz wrote: By analogy, listening to it reminded me of how I felt when I watched Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace in 1999. After eagerly waiting years for this movie, I was left feeling unmoved and disinterested. In fact, I was checking my watch 20 minutes into the movie. Although the marquee said “Star Wars”, it had none of the energy, the familiarity, and the excitement of the original releases. It felt like Star Wars in name only.


Watching the Star Wars saga with my daughter now...decided on doing 1-6 so its a happy ending (its worked out, too, because for example Anakin turning to the dark side was stunning to her). Anyway, much preferring the Prequels to the Originals - just a lot better contrary to popular opinion. Especially Revenge of the Sith. I still prefer Empire Strikes Back to any of them, but A New Hope and Return of the Jedi just don't hold my attention like the prequels do.

Eclipse is something I enjoy immensely too. More detail.
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Postby youkeepmewaiting » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:11 am

S2M wrote:To me, what they are missing is that young drive that new acts have...the desire to prove something to the industry/fans. They really have nothing to play for anymore. You can tell they are just phoning it in. While the chops are still there, the cohesive compostitions, and vocal melodies are not. Arnel couldn't sing his way out of a traffic ticket....and it really isn't his fault. He doesn't have his own identity. Joining an established group this late in the game was the death knell.


Surely the new album (whether you like it or not) shows that they are not just phoning it in
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