Tantra Problem

[Don]

If it seems I'm being a dick, I am.
During launch week, This (at times anti) Journey forum gave Eclipse ten times the promo that Nomota was actually providing to the album. If this album does indeed flop, I can't feel sorry for any one in the band except Arnel.

You are a good contributor of information, so any dickness will be excused in lieu of that.

If we forget Tantra, I gave this album TWO good reviews; an early review and a final review. I guess that just makes me a bit more pissed when something I put my own personal 'Gunbot Approved' stamp of satisfaction on is marketed so horribly.

[S2M]

That song has grown on me a whole lot. I love it.

Man, I think it's their third or fourth best ballad ever, trailing only Faithfully, Still They Ride and possibly After The Fall.

This is the correct answer folks. Fuck everyone else.

Ditto to both of you.

One song that never gets any love that I love is "Easy To Fall".

At least there were enough people that had a chance to hear that song simply by buying the album.

I'm not a fan of Tantra but Arnel does some of his best stuff on it and ultimately he is the one who suffers the most from this album not being marketed properly. Instead of being the album with the song that broke Pineda out of Perry's shadow, Eclipse is on course to be a promotional disaster and remembered as the record that broke the band's back at retail. This album could very well kill their relationship with Wal-Mart and be the last Journey record to see mass distribution.

It's still premature to prognosticate anything like that. While you may very well be correct, I'm still hoping this record will grow legs.

How many times do I have to tell you?....'god' ignores amputees....

[Rick]

If it seems I'm being a dick, I am.
During launch week, This (at times anti) Journey forum gave Eclipse ten times the promo that Nomota was actually providing to the album. If this album does indeed flop, I can't feel sorry for any one in the band except Arnel.

You are a good contributor of information, so any dickness will be excused in lieu of that.

If we forget Tantra, I gave this album TWO good reviews; an early review and a final review. I guess that just makes me a bit more pissed when something I put my own personal 'Gunbot Approved' stamp of satisfaction on is marketed so horribly.

Call me the eternal optimist, but I cannot help but think they have something up their sleeve for this record. You don't put out a record to just languish like that. I mean, how or why would you do that?

[Don]

If it seems I'm being a dick, I am.
During launch week, This (at times anti) Journey forum gave Eclipse ten times the promo that Nomota was actually providing to the album. If this album does indeed flop, I can't feel sorry for any one in the band except Arnel.

You are a good contributor of information, so any dickness will be excused in lieu of that.

If we forget Tantra, I gave this album TWO good reviews; an early review and a final review. I guess that just makes me a bit more pissed when something I put my own personal 'Gunbot Approved' stamp of satisfaction on is marketed so horribly.

Call me the eternal optimist, but I cannot help but think they have something up their sleeve for this record. You don't put out a record to just languish like that. I mean, how or why would you do that?

Because you (Nomota) believe the hype that any association with DSB will carry anything with Journey's name on it by itself with no need for extra promotion.
If this album came out in 2009 when DSB was it it's Apex, we are talking a different ballgame but Journey disappeared like the Loch Ness monster for 18 months only to resurface right when the American Idol favorite went down in flames singing Journey's anthem.

[Arkansas]

... I can't feel sorry for any one in the band except Arnel.

Interesting point. I remember during an interview for Arrival, JC made comment about getting Augeri & Castronovo their first Journey #1. That didn't happen then. Probably for comparative/similar reasons, it won't happen for Pineda now.


later~

[Rick]

If it seems I'm being a dick, I am.
During launch week, This (at times anti) Journey forum gave Eclipse ten times the promo that Nomota was actually providing to the album. If this album does indeed flop, I can't feel sorry for any one in the band except Arnel.

You are a good contributor of information, so any dickness will be excused in lieu of that.

If we forget Tantra, I gave this album TWO good reviews; an early review and a final review. I guess that just makes me a bit more pissed when something I put my own personal 'Gunbot Approved' stamp of satisfaction on is marketed so horribly.

Call me the eternal optimist, but I cannot help but think they have something up their sleeve for this record. You don't put out a record to just languish like that. I mean, how or why would you do that?

Because you (Nomota) believe the hype that any association with DSB will carry anything with Journey's name on it by itself with no need for extra promotion.
If this album came out in 2009 when DSB was it it's Apex, we are talking a different ballgame but Journey disappeared like the Loch Ness monster for 18 months only to resurface right when the American Idol favorite went down in flames singing Journey's anthem.

Just a slight miscalculation then.

[Arkansas]

Call me the eternal optimist, but I cannot help but think they have something up their sleeve for this record. You don't put out a record to just languish like that. I mean, how or why would you do that?

It was an option on the WM deal. Journey/NS did it because they/he could.

Journey's 'cash cow' is in touring...just like most bands today. They've got many months of shows locked-in at whatever negotiated price + riders. Anything on top of that is just icing on the cake.

They care far less about new album sales, than they do GH/catalog sales. Period.


later~

[Rick]

Call me the eternal optimist, but I cannot help but think they have something up their sleeve for this record. You don't put out a record to just languish like that. I mean, how or why would you do that?

It was an option on the WM deal. Journey/NS did it because they/he could.

Journey's 'cash cow' is in touring...just like most bands today. They've got many months of shows locked-in at whatever negotiated price + riders. Anything on top of that is just icing on the cake.

They care far less about new album sales, than they do GH/catalog sales. Period.


later~

I can see that being true, but if this thing doesn't take off at some point, their history with WalMart, or any other label. Seriously bad business.

[steveo777]

Call me the eternal optimist, but I cannot help but think they have something up their sleeve for this record. You don't put out a record to just languish like that. I mean, how or why would you do that?

It was an option on the WM deal. Journey/NS did it because they/he could.

Journey's 'cash cow' is in touring...just like most bands today. They've got many months of shows locked-in at whatever negotiated price + riders. Anything on top of that is just icing on the cake.

They care far less about new album sales, than they do GH/catalog sales. Period.


later~

I can see that being true, but if this thing doesn't take off at some point, their history with WalMart, or any other label. Seriously bad business.

There's a lot of worse shit out there that sells much more. Gotta be the poor promo of the product. Eclipse is solid enough.

[Arkansas]

I can see that being true, but if this thing doesn't take off at some point, their history with WalMart, or any other label. Seriously bad business.

Well, their history with WM was probably just the 'one' deal, meaning that do Revelation + another, if the initial did well, and with conditions. WM is all about the immediate buck. But, I'd bet their projections included a residual album. That means that they made enough from Revelation to cover any subsequent losses. In other words, some of the production of Eclipse was a cost built into the original Revelation +another deal.

WM isn't who they are based only on short term projections. They are smart, very smart, business people. Any 'next album' (Eclipse) costs were probably long-budgeted before this year. And btw, it wouldn't surprise me one bit that Journey's original choice of doing an EP only evolved into a complete album when they decided to take WM up on the option. NS saw it as a way to further get his name out there under the Journey name...and at WM's expense.

Now then, Journey probably paid some expense themselves when they hired Kalmusky and were still obligated to Shirley. But that was probably a choice by NS w/JC's consent.

Okay, long story short, Journey's day's of major labels are long gone...and the day of a new WM deal is done too.

What happens record-wise from now on, is anyone's guess.


later~

[RedWingFan]

One song that never gets any love that I love is "Easy To Fall".

I think my two favorite Perry vocals he laid down were "Sweet and Simple" and "Easy To Fall".

One in the prime of his singing voice and one near the end. Both great. Proves that the dude could lay down greatness whatever his physical ability.

[Rick]

One song that never gets any love that I love is "Easy To Fall".

I think my two favorite Perry vocals he laid down were "Sweet and Simple" and "Easy To Fall".

One in the prime of his singing voice and one near the end. Both great. Proves that the dude could lay down greatness whatever his physical ability.

Sweet and Simple one of my favorites, as well. SP was just plain showing off on that track. As he should have.

[yandtguy]

I think that's crap. There's a reason bands do studio albums. Not allowing Arnel to punch in and sing the line again, if it sounds bad (couldn't tell you 'cause I don't care for the song and don't feel like listening to it), is just stupidity. It also sounds lazy and unprofessional. If you want spontaneity, do a "live in the studio" CD as a bonus disc. I think the band just wanted to get the album done quickly. They didn't want to wait for the Caveman to finish the CD, and according to him, their was tension anyway, so I guess a quick process was needed to get the band out of the studio and back on the road.

I disagree. Studio album doesn't equal antiseptic perfectionism. This was always my biggest issue with the scrubbed-to-death sound of ROR...still my least favorite Journey album of all time (even pre-Perry).

My favorite classic "Rock God" studio albums, including some by the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, and The Who, all have "mistakes" in them and yet they blow away 99% of the sanitized and soulless music that some of the studio jockeys put out today.

The studio polish is something that contemporary tastes demand so it is often an artistic concession to the demands of the listener and their auditory conditioning, but I think talking about it as if it were gospel and demand that every artist conform to it on every record is also a demand that an artist engage in the "studio sheen" as a kind of unthinking laziness and conformity in itself.

There's plenty of human moments on the album and I notice them too, but I'm not going to spotlight them for fear that it may ruin someone else's listening experience.

But for me, the closer it sounds to live and spontaneous, the more I like it.

If you don't think some of those classic albums didn't have punch-ins, especially for vocals, you're sadly mistaken. If a screw up sounds cool, that's one thing, but if you're leaving in screw ups to sound "organic" or something, that's just crap and disrespectful to your fans, unless you're a punk band.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Sounded fine to me. I've never seen any Journey release get so scrutinized over dumb silly shit - not even Arrival.

[conversationpc]

I think that's crap. There's a reason bands do studio albums. Not allowing Arnel to punch in and sing the line again, if it sounds bad (couldn't tell you 'cause I don't care for the song and don't feel like listening to it), is just stupidity. It also sounds lazy and unprofessional. If you want spontaneity, do a "live in the studio" CD as a bonus disc. I think the band just wanted to get the album done quickly. They didn't want to wait for the Caveman to finish the CD, and according to him, their was tension anyway, so I guess a quick process was needed to get the band out of the studio and back on the road.

I disagree. Studio album doesn't equal antiseptic perfectionism. This was always my biggest issue with the scrubbed-to-death sound of ROR...still my least favorite Journey album of all time (even pre-Perry).

My favorite classic "Rock God" studio albums, including some by the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, and The Who, all have "mistakes" in them and yet they blow away 99% of the sanitized and soulless music that some of the studio jockeys put out today.

The studio polish is something that contemporary tastes demand so it is often an artistic concession to the demands of the listener and their auditory conditioning, but I think talking about it as if it were gospel and demand that every artist conform to it on every record is also a demand that an artist engage in the "studio sheen" as a kind of unthinking laziness and conformity in itself.

There's plenty of human moments on the album and I notice them too, but I'm not going to spotlight them for fear that it may ruin someone else's listening experience.

But for me, the closer it sounds to live and spontaneous, the more I like it.

If you don't think some of those classic albums didn't have punch-ins, especially for vocals, you're sadly mistaken. If a screw up sounds cool, that's one thing, but if you're leaving in screw ups to sound "organic" or something, that's just crap and disrespectful to your fans, unless you're a punk band.

Yeah, I don't get the whole thing about leaving mistakes in because it sounds more "live" or "organic" or whatever. It's a studio album. If it's got a live sound to begin with, fixing a few screw-ups is not going to change that.

[SF-Dano]

Sounded fine to me. I've never seen any Journey release get so scrutinized over dumb silly shit - not even Arrival.

Yes. It is like people are continuing to listen solely to look for things to harp on at this point. Ridiculous. It is a great sounding CD to me. At this point we pretty much know who likes the CD and who doesn't around here.

[hoagiepete]

People like it and will continue listening, some won't.

Example. I didn't like the sound of Steve Perry gasping for breath in FTLOSM, so I quit listening to it.

Some may like it, some may think it's emotion or whatever, I don't. Again, to each there own.

[Gideon]

Sounded fine to me. I've never seen any Journey release get so scrutinized over dumb silly shit - not even Arrival.

Yes. It is like people are continuing to listen solely to look for things to harp on at this point.

Now does that sound like anyone here?

[geminix]

People like it and will continue listening, some won't.

Example. I didn't like the sound of Steve Perry gasping for breath in FTLOSM, so I quit listening to it.

Some may like it, some may think it's emotion or whatever, I don't. Again, to each there own.

Damn that annoys the living hell outta me. Glad I'm not the only one.

[youkeepmewaiting]

People like it and will continue listening, some won't.

Example. I didn't like the sound of Steve Perry gasping for breath in FTLOSM, so I quit listening to it.

Some may like it, some may think it's emotion or whatever, I don't. Again, to each there own.

Damn that annoys the living hell outta me. Glad I'm not the only one.

I can ignore it but as soon as a pay attention it bugs me

[StringsOfJoy]

I think that's crap. There's a reason bands do studio albums. Not allowing Arnel to punch in and sing the line again, if it sounds bad (couldn't tell you 'cause I don't care for the song and don't feel like listening to it), is just stupidity. It also sounds lazy and unprofessional. If you want spontaneity, do a "live in the studio" CD as a bonus disc. I think the band just wanted to get the album done quickly. They didn't want to wait for the Caveman to finish the CD, and according to him, their was tension anyway, so I guess a quick process was needed to get the band out of the studio and back on the road.

I disagree. Studio album doesn't equal antiseptic perfectionism. This was always my biggest issue with the scrubbed-to-death sound of ROR...still my least favorite Journey album of all time (even pre-Perry).

My favorite classic "Rock God" studio albums, including some by the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, and The Who, all have "mistakes" in them and yet they blow away 99% of the sanitized and soulless music that some of the studio jockeys put out today.

The studio polish is something that contemporary tastes demand so it is often an artistic concession to the demands of the listener and their auditory conditioning, but I think talking about it as if it were gospel and demand that every artist conform to it on every record is also a demand that an artist engage in the "studio sheen" as a kind of unthinking laziness and conformity in itself.

There's plenty of human moments on the album and I notice them too, but I'm not going to spotlight them for fear that it may ruin someone else's listening experience.

But for me, the closer it sounds to live and spontaneous, the more I like it.

If you don't think some of those classic albums didn't have punch-ins, especially for vocals, you're sadly mistaken. If a screw up sounds cool, that's one thing, but if you're leaving in screw ups to sound "organic" or something, that's just crap and disrespectful to your fans, unless you're a punk band.

We have different ideas about what things are disrespectful to fans and I'm not out to change your mind.

I know that classic albums had plenty of editing as well, but my point is not about whether you have all or nothing. The people who work on these albums make a lot of little decisions that affect how the overall sound will register. On any given recording, I may like or dislike some of the decisions they made and in the aggregate I may conclude either they didn't spend enough time to make it sound refined enough (similar to what I hear you saying) or that they spent way too much time (my ROR example).

The point is that you can spend huge amounts of time trying to obliterate every little "flaw" or you can lean in the other direction. Nobody ever does 100% raw or 100% "polished," so I take it to mean that you wish they'd leaned more heavily against the raw side. That's fine, but maybe we just have different sensibilities or at least we weight certain things differently when we make the conclusion about whether enough time was spent in the studio to sound polished enough.

When mistakes were left into some of those classic albums, the question was simply does this sound good enough for the genre and I hear what you're saying about Journey: as a Pop Rock band the polish is part of what you expect from them so it's fair to criticize if they didn't live up to your expectations there. But maybe my sensibilities are a little more toward the "punk" side from time to time: I don't mind hearing Keef's Maestro Fuzz go "click" several times during "Satisfaction," etc., etc. Could they have easily "fixed" that in the studio? I'm thinking yes. Is it "disrespectful" to not "fix" it? Ummm...I don't think so. Does it add to the Rock N Roll vibe of the thing? Abso-freakin-lutely!

[koberry]

That song has grown on me a whole lot. I love it.

Man, I think it's their third or fourth best ballad ever, trailing only Faithfully, Still They Ride and possibly After The Fall.

This is the correct answer folks. Fuck everyone else.

Ditto to both of you.

One song that never gets any love that I love is "Easy To Fall".

Listened to that track twice today, it deserves much love. Had headphones on while listening on a plane and heard a lot more Ross on TBF than I remembered. He should get some kudos for his work on the cd, nice job.

[youkeepmewaiting]

Sounded fine to me. I've never seen any Journey release get so scrutinized over dumb silly shit - not even Arrival.

Yes. It is like people are continuing to listen solely to look for things to harp on at this point. Ridiculous. It is a great sounding CD to me. At this point we pretty much know who likes the CD and who doesn't around here.

I love the CD. But that grates on me whenever I hear it as it's pretty obvious to me