Robert Fleischman FB

[STORY_TELLER]

I'd argue that without all the work they put in....Escape would not have been as popular. That is....if Cain/Schon/Perry started a new band in 1981 and wrote Escape and Journey 73-80 never existed then Escape wouldn't have been the same.

73-77 was foundation for 78-80 and 73-80 was foundation for 81-83.

I agree with that completely. That speaks to my comparison to the Bon Jovi 7800 Fahrenheit to Slippery When Wet explosion. Bon Jovi was on the map and their seeds of popularity were already planted. Their fans were clamoring for that next album. Radio was ready to play the tunes because Bon Jovi was already somewhat popular from their previous albums coupled with some modest hits. MTV was doing part of the touring legwork for them. The reaction to Slippery When Wet was enormous because their song writing improved, but it still would have been VERY strong had the songs been at the same level as 7800.

This is the same thing that happened with Journey, only they didn't have the MTV boost because it didn't exist yet. They did it the hard way: Touring. Escape was Journey's Slippery When Wet (yes I know Journey came first, it's just an analogy).

Glad to see more than a few people here get my point. Mystery Mountain especially hit the nail on the head. Thanks for chiming in.

[Monker]

If only 20 or so people read this board, or read this thread, then explain the view count in the statistics column on the Journey view forum main page. It currently shows 630 views of this thread alone. The HOF thread has almost 3000.

20 people clicking on this thread 30 times since its inception is very reasonable. I did not comment on the forum as a whole.

Not everyone who reads these boards posts here and I would go so far as they don't check in often enough to know much about you.

Yeah, sure. It's a statistical fact that %90 of the members of discussion forums lurk and don't post.

Web forums are no where near as popular as they used to be. The 20 or so people clicking on this thread have probably been around for 10yrs or more.

But, it's just a guess. The real point I was making is you feeling the need to protect the naive and innocent from me. You are such a hero. Too funny.

You're just as guilty of speculation on that front as the rest of us, so go throw another stone in your glass house dude.

Yeah, sure. But, when I say something like "Steve Perry would be nothing without Journey," I know it's just IMO...and I always try to say so. If I screw up and don't, I don't mind you or anybody else calling me out on it so I can clarify.

You, on the other hand, write it up as FACT..and you continued to try to prove your fiction as fact in your first reply to me. Alternate realities and timelines are the realm of science fiction writers - they are not fact.

[Monker]

I'd argue that without all the work they put in....Escape would not have been as popular. That is....if Cain/Schon/Perry started a new band in 1981 and wrote Escape and Journey 73-80 never existed then Escape wouldn't have been the same.

73-77 was foundation for 78-80 and 73-80 was foundation for 81-83.

I agree with that completely. That speaks to my comparison to the Bon Jovi 7800 Fahrenheit to Slippery When Wet explosion. Bon Jovi was on the map and their seeds of popularity were already planted. Their fans were clamoring for that next album. Radio was ready to play the tunes because Bon Jovi was already somewhat popular from their previous albums coupled with some modest hits. MTV was doing part of the touring legwork for them. The reaction to Slippery When Wet was enormous because their song writing improved, but it still would have been VERY strong had the songs been at the same level as 7800.

This is the same thing that happened with Journey, only they didn't have the MTV boost because it didn't exist yet. They did it the hard way: Touring. Escape was Journey's Slippery When Wet (yes I know Journey came first, it's just an analogy).

Glad to see more than a few people here get my point. Mystery Mountain especially hit the nail on the head. Thanks for chiming in.

And, it is STILL fiction and making stuff up.

A huge portion of this forum were saying the same type of things leading up to the release of Eclipse. It was all set up to be double platinum with multiple hit singles and a huge success. But, that's not what happened.

And, you can say the same thing about Infinity. The first three albums set it up. It didn't matter who was lead singer, they were already moving in a more vocal direction, even on the Next album. Fleischman even had some of the songwriting started for the album. Whether it was Perry, Fleischman, or somebody else...Infinity was going to be a platinum album.

it's all made up fiction. It's fiction that you WANT to believe because it adds to the myth of Journey. But, the TRUTH is you don't know what would have happened if Gregg had stayed in the band and Escape did not have DSB and Open Arms, and the other hits on it. You are simply inventing things that align with what you want to be true.

The FACT is Perry/Schon had YEARS and many albums to have the success they had with Escape. It didn't happen until the songwriting level was raised with Escape, and their timing was very lucky - and Journey became a monster.

And, BTW, without Jnathan and Escape, there is no DSB. At this point, imagining Journey being a success without DSB is laughable to me. But, whatever, it's all fiction anyway so you can invent whatever you want. Maybe Perry can be bald in these fantasies, too.

[scarab]

If Fleischman would have not been fired, there would be no Journey for Cain to join.
Sure, the 4 albums before Cain with Perry did not have many "hits". But songs that were played over and over (and still)
on FM radio. If Rolie would have stayed I am sure they would have a hit or two and album (and still sell out arenas) until Perry bailed.

[STORY_TELLER]

If only 20 or so people read this board, or read this thread, then explain the view count in the statistics column on the Journey view forum main page. It currently shows 630 views of this thread alone. The HOF thread has almost 3000.

20 people clicking on this thread 30 times since its inception is very reasonable. I did not comment on the forum as a whole.

Not everyone who reads these boards posts here and I would go so far as they don't check in often enough to know much about you.

Well there you go, cherry picking again. I told you what my intent was, and it was for the people who have so far or will in the future read this thread, and those people, like myself when I first stumbled across this board, could be lurkers. It was around 600 at the time, but there are threads with views over 10k on this board.

You cherry picked the grammar of my response to suit your narrative, like you always do. Everyone else seems to get what I've been saying, because they're looking at it in broad strokes, like NORMAL people. You live to split hairs, which makes you a very petty individual.

[STORY_TELLER]

If Fleischman would have not been fired, there would be no Journey for Cain to join.
Sure, the 4 albums before Cain with Perry did not have many "hits". But songs that were played over and over (and still)
on FM radio. If Rolie would have stayed I am sure they would have a hit or two and album (and still sell out arenas) until Perry bailed.

BINGO

[STORY_TELLER]

And, it is STILL fiction and making stuff up.

A huge portion of this forum were saying the same type of things leading up to the release of Eclipse. It was all set up to be double platinum with multiple hit singles and a huge success. But, that's not what happened.

And, you can say the same thing about Infinity. The first three albums set it up. It didn't matter who was lead singer, they were already moving in a more vocal direction, even on the Next album. Fleischman even had some of the songwriting started for the album. Whether it was Perry, Fleischman, or somebody else...Infinity was going to be a platinum album.

it's all made up fiction. It's fiction that you WANT to believe because it adds to the myth of Journey. But, the TRUTH is you don't know what would have happened if Gregg had stayed in the band and Escape did not have DSB and Open Arms, and the other hits on it. You are simply inventing things that align with what you want to be true.

The FACT is Perry/Schon had YEARS and many albums to have the success they had with Escape. It didn't happen until the songwriting level was raised with Escape, and their timing was very lucky - and Journey became a monster.

And, BTW, without Jnathan and Escape, there is no DSB. At this point, imagining Journey being a success without DSB is laughable to me. But, whatever, it's all fiction anyway so you can invent whatever you want. Maybe Perry can be bald in these fantasies, too.

I'm seriously laughing my ass off at your posts dude. You are SO far off base it's not even funny. Here you are, cherry picking elements to support YOUR narrative. I mean seriously, you just posted your own version of what you accused me of: "A fiction". And more important, you left out many key details that make your comparisons vastly incompatible.

I certainly won't waste my time or dignify your version of the way you claim things happened. Seems most of the people posting in this thread get what I've been saying, and disagree with the nit picking contentious portions of your position. That's more than enough.

[Monker]

quote]If Fleischman would have not been fired, there would be no Journey for Cain to join.[/quote]

You are in the wrong forum. The use of Crystal Balls is in the Styx forum.

Sure, the 4 albums before Cain with Perry did not have many "hits". But songs that were played over and over (and still) on FM radio.

Not my total point. In 1980, Journey was a fraction of what they would be remembered for from 1981 - 1986. Yes, in hit songs...but also in album sales, concert sales, and concert tech. They were far, far, more popular than one top ten hit and a handful of radio hits, and a decent touring band.

I was quoting and surmising the Robyn Flans book. Go read it. It said, "fledging rock band". Go look up the definition, it is exactly what they were in all aspects of what would eventually define the success of Journey.

The 1980's Journey DWARFED the 1970's Journey.

If Rolie would have stayed I am sure they would have a hit or two and album (and still sell out arenas) until Perry bailed.

So, now your crystal ball is telling you that Rolie can write hit songs for Journey, even though he never did prior, and that Perry would quit the band. Wow. You should write a book with that creative of an imagination.

The facts are that Rolie has written NO top 10 hits for Journey...compared to Jonathan who not only was a writer on ALL of Journey's hits during his time, but was a writer on EVERY SONG JOURNEY RELEAED up until Arrival. Not only did Perry not quit the band in the 80's, he essentially took power over the band from Herbie until he burned himself out and put the band on hiatus after ROR. The argument could also be made that he didn't 'quit' after TBF either, but was fired. Perry never felt like part of a band that he wanted complete control over. How odd.

[Monker]

I told you what my intent was, and it was for the people who have so far or will in the future read this thread, and those people, like myself when I first stumbled across this board, could be lurkers.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Do you know what a run-on sentence is and how they completely confuse the reader? I think you should study them a bit.

My point was, and still is, it's hillarious that you feel a need to protect people from me. Too funny...even when you repeat it multiple times.

You cherry picked the grammar of my response to suit your narrative, like you always do. Everyone else seems to get what I've been saying, because they're looking at it in broad strokes, like NORMAL people. You live to split hairs, which makes you a very petty individual.

You can't get a much broader stroke than saying when you make up alternate timelines, you are writing fiction not facts.

I'm seriously laughing my ass off at your posts dude. You are SO far off base it's not even funny.

Soooo...which is it, do I make you laugh or are they not funny? Make up your mind.

Here you are, cherry picking elements to support YOUR narrative. I mean seriously, you just posted your own version of what you accused me of: "A fiction". And more important, you left out many key details that make your comparisons vastly incompatible.

I assume you are talking about my bit describing things between Next and Infinity. Thank you for understanding my point...that it is EASY to make up this stuff even if the facts get in the way. Now that you understand, I accpet your appology.

I certainly won't waste my time or dignify your version of the way you claim things happened. Seems most of the people posting in this thread get what I've been saying, and disagree with the nit picking contentious portions of your position. That's more than enough.

A popular vote does not turn a fiction into a fact. If it did, Clinton would be President.

[scarab]

If Rolie did not quit, Perry and Schon would have continued the magic they had.

I think Rolie/Perry had 1 maybe 2 song credits?

[tater1977]

Perry / Rolie Songs + others


Infinity

"Feeling That Way" Perry, Gregg Rolie, Aynsley Dunbar
"Winds of March" Matt Schon, Schon, Fleischman, Rolie, Perry
"Opened the Door" Perry, Rolie, Schon

Evolution

"City of the Angels" Perry, Gregg Rolie, Schon
' Do You Recall" Perry, Rolie
"Daydream" Perry, Rolie, Schon, Valory

Dream, After Dream

"Sandcastles" Gregg Rolie, Perry
"A Few Coins" Rolie, Schon, Steve Smith, Perry, Valory
"Festival Dance" Rolie, Schon, Smith, Perry, Valory
"Little Girl" Schon, Perry, Rolie

[MysteryMountain]

I've forgotten the argument. Don't we all agree RF doesn't deserve mention at the HOF induction? lol

Also for your list Tater:

Departure:
Someday Soon - Perry, Rolie, Schon
I'm Cryin' - Perry, Rolie

[Arkansas]

Don't we all agree RF doesn't deserve mention at the HOF induction?

I wouldn't go that far. Yes, only the nominees get the limelight/stage time, but I think it'd be kinda cool to see all the others out on the floor somewhere. And if I were doing the induction or an acceptance speech, I think I'd make it a point to mention everyone in the band, including Herbie Herbert & Irving Azoff. I think historical reflection & thanks are really important, especially for this.


later~

[MysteryMountain]

That's fine, and I have no issue with another take. My point was that the argument seems to have ventured so far from the original topic I wasn't sure any more.

[tj]

That's fine, and I have no issue with another take. My point was that the argument seems to have ventured so far from the original topic I wasn't sure any more.

[Gideon]

It's amazing these arguments still persist after all these years.
Perry/Schon/Cain was the magic combo with respect to success. It wasn't all Perry; if it had been all Perry, Street Talk would have matched or outsold Escape and there wouldn't be 20+ years of begging for him to return to the band... since the rest of them wouldn't have mattered.

Now maybe Perry was the most important of the three; that's an argument that can be made. But JC is getting the shaft with respect to recognition here and if we're going to base credit off where band members assign it, you need only look to my signature to see what Perry has to say about that.

[tj]

But JC is getting the shaft with respect to recognition here and if we're going to base credit off where band members assign it, you need only look to my signature to see what Perry has to say about that.

I am struggling to think of bands where the songwriter or keyboard player, instead of the lead singer or lead guitarist, is considered a driving force behind the success. Not saying it hasn't happened, I just can't think of any right now. It seems that songwriting is way underrated and keyboard players are a dime a dozen.

[Memorex]

But JC is getting the shaft with respect to recognition here and if we're going to base credit off where band members assign it, you need only look to my signature to see what Perry has to say about that.

I am struggling to think of bands where the songwriter or keyboard player, instead of the lead singer or lead guitarist, is considered a driving force behind the success. Not saying it hasn't happened, I just can't think of any right now. It seems that songwriting is way underrated and keyboard players are a dime a dozen.

I think it happens more frequently than you know. I mean, some bands have this great front man, but behind the scenes other people are driving the songs, the business, the writing and melody, etc. Not to diminish anyone's contributions, I think you could make a case for this with Foreigner, Zeppelin, etc. I mean, often it's the guitarists that are writing the solid hits/melodies. You look at Van Halen and it's Eddie writing all the music, probably pushing the overall direction, etc.

Not sure from how your comment is worded if you are saying you don't see the perception or don't see actual examples.

If you want the girls, be the singer. If you want the house, be the writer.