More legal drama

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Re: More legal drama

Postby Monker » Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:06 am

ebake02 wrote:
jrnyman28 wrote:
Monker wrote:
This is exaggerated. If you read the agreements, this lasted for three albums and three tours...each one Perry received less. So, Perry stopped receiving money for touring and album sales back during the Augeri years....after the Generations album/tour Perry stopped receiving money. So, for the entirety of Arnel's run, Perry has only received normal Journey royalties.


My understanding is that it reduced with each album or tour until it reached, like, 12% in perpetuity.


That’s how I understood too, I can’t picture Perry letting Neal and Jon play the dirty dozen on tour every year without getting a cut of the revenue considering he co-wrote a large portion of the set list.


You guys are correct. It drops down to %12.5 percent of the net amount that either Neal or Jonathan make, whichever is most. So, if Neal makes $500,000 from the tour...Steve gets $500,000 x .125 which is $62,000 from the tour profits. The same for album sales and merchandise, and whatever can fit into miscellaneous. So, Perry gets 1/8 of all Journey revenue.

Also, when I reread Neal's original suit, he quoted both the Elmo partners deal and the 1998 exit regarding trademarks. So, they should know that Perry had rights to the trademark and the unanimous consent, etc, from the Elmo Partner deal. It was in the last lawsuit from Neal. They quoted the 1998 deal stating that Perry waived this clause for any NEW material. But, he kept it for OLD material.

So, I am starting to think Perry has a real good case here. Neal should just settle and agree to refile trademarks for old songs/albums using Elmo Partners so they can abide by the Elmo Partners contract and allow Perry a say. If there is any evidence that Perry waived this clause, or it changed, or it no longer applies for whatever reason, I have not seen it.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Monker » Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:29 am

jrnyman28 wrote:Neal applied for trademark of all song and album titles for use in merchandising. Perry is suing because as per a previous agreement he needed to be included and approval needed to be from all 3 partners. No one received permission from Perry.


Correct. This has nothing to do with having control of the band. Neal and Jonathan can tour Journey and record Journey all they want. But, they can not sign a deal to print Escape t-shirts without involving Steve Perry...according to the Elmo Partners contract. That is what Steve Perry is saying, and he has the evidence to back it up. Neal needs evidence, not just talk and playing a whiney victim.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby danielb » Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:50 pm

Of course, Perry should be in on the deal for any stuff trademarked from the era he was a part of. Is Neal trying to have the Perry era stuff trademarked by Freedom LLC, thus leaving Perry out of the deal?

Only natural with a legal response from Perry, in that case.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Monker » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:09 pm

Well, looks like Michaela Schon has a trademark for "Lady M". Kind of explains to me why Narada kept calling her that.
https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno ... =OPP&eno=1

Found some other interesting bits of this last lawsuit...just need to write it all down...
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Monker » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:42 pm

First, just a simple Google search for "Freedom JN, LLC" had this:

https://uspto.report/company/Freedom-Jn-L-L-C

Freedom JN, LLC dates back to October of 2020. They were trademarking songs all the way back to late 2020. Interesting. If you start clicking and looking at dates, they were REGISTERED early this year. It took that long for the applications to be reviewed and approved. So, Perry sued AFTER they were registered, not after Freedom JN, LLC applied for them.

BTW, late 2020 is also when Nightmare filed to have Smith and Valory moved into leadership positions and Neal and Jon removed. Kind of an ironic coincidence.

Interestingly, it looks like Freedom JN LLC also obtained the Jim Welch artwork copyrights...
https://uspto.report/copyright/search/k ... journey+jn

Here is Perry's filing for the lawsuit...
https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno ... =CAN&eno=1

This verifies the dates above for when Freedom JN filed for the TM's.

If you read further down, it also shows that Neal and Jon both made deals to give up their rights to the songs...and they say that includes merchandise, something Perry did not do. So, not only does Perry have evidence that he had a right to the TM, but he is saying Neal and Jon had NO writes to the TM, and has evidence for that. Wow.

What I do NOT get is why Perry waited 2yrs to stop this...something else is going on, IMO. I can understand waiting until after Stranger Things/Separate Ways had run its course. But, this all started long before that.

IMO, Neal has no chance of winning this. Like to see his response...
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Loneman1 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:31 pm

If there's one dude I'd trust to have every single one of his ducks, as well as the extended family of said ducks, in a row legally before making any moves its absolutely Steve Perry. I too am curious how Neal is gonna respond to this because as it stands right now, he may not have a leg to stand on based on all the evidence online. I will say good on Neal for shedding some light on any shenanigans that took place years ago with potentially being screwed out of a lot of money, I'm always all about stopping that kind of BS.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby jrnyman28 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:02 pm

Loneman1 wrote:If there's one dude I'd trust to have every single one of his ducks, as well as the extended family of said ducks, in a row legally before making any moves its absolutely Steve Perry.


Agreed 100%
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Re: More legal drama

Postby JourneyHard » Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:16 am

I want to see the Herbie Herbert documentary which is due out in December. Perhaps it will clear up what is going on. It was supposed to be out in April 2022 and then it was delayed until September 2022 and now it is delayed again until December 2022. Perhaps they keep delaying it to add more on this drama going on.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby danielb » Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:24 am

Thanks for sharing those documents, Monker. Very interesting. Didn't realise that SP and JC were the sole writers of so many of their biggest songs.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Journey/Survivor » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:44 am

I know that the documentary about Arnel Pineda did eventually air on PBS, and I assume that it's available on DVD or something like that?

But wasn't there supposed to be something else coming out? Like was there supposed to be something else coming out about Pineda? Or was Neal supposed to be releasing something that was either going to be about him or Journey? Something like a documentary or movie?

I see that JourneHard mentioned a documentary about Herbie Herbert. Is there supposed to be something else coming out besides that?
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Re: More legal drama

Postby jrnyman28 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:52 am

There was talk of a Pineda biopic…
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Re: More legal drama

Postby danielb » Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:54 pm

Schon must have earned a lot less through royalties than Perry and Cain over the years, looking at those songwriting splits, so perhaps he wanted to boost his income from merchandise in addition to touring?

But Perry seems to have a strong case and reading his legal document his part in writing all their biggest songs is hard to overlook. Didn't realise Perry and Cain wrote so much, and Schon so little. No wonder he's so quick to call himself Journey's founder ;)
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Gideon » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:36 am

Neal's instincts for being an attention whore and drama seeker have magnified tenfold since he rekindled his romance with Michaele. She's as crazy as Jon's wife is, the flavor is just more secular.

Every interview or conversation is Neal being self congratulatory, it's all "I," "I," "I," "me," "me," "me," etc. He's always right, his instincts are always impeccable, it's his band, and he's turned Journey's social media presence into his personal playground because Journey's name recognition vastly exceeds his. He's constantly retweeting/reposting shit from his personal account on Journey's.

Very disappointed in his descent into narcissistic megalomania. I just want him to play the guitar and push for new music and otherwise shut the fuck up.
'Nothing was bigger for Journey than 1981’s “Escape” album. “I have to attribute that to Jonathan coming in and joining the writing team,” Steve Perry (Feb 2012).'
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Memorex » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:41 am

My short take. Neal and Jon should have included Steve, by contract. That seems open and shut.

It seems like Steve is saying the third party company that bought Jon and Neal's rights should also have no right to the trademark.

I think either it ends up being the three of them, or SP and the third party company. I don't know enough about how it works to know.

Good for Neal for doing the work to get those secured and discovering that they could be trademarked, but big thumbs down for cutting SP out, based on their agreement.

That said, who gives a shit on most of those songs. I have never seen anything that says "Hopelessly in Love" relating to Journey. If I saw the slogan, I'd think it was about a lifetime movie. A few, for sure. Unless..... There was about to be a line of Paula and Michaele perfumes, potions, and toilet paper using those names. Then maybe they would want to secure them first.

Maybe Neal figured hey, no one thought to Trademark these, so I will. But for the Elmo agreement, he'd probably right.

This post trademarked by Memorex. Memorex trademarked by Memorex.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Eric » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:55 am

The most calm and logical comment I’ve read from Schon is that Perry knew they were on tour and wished he would have talked to him first so he could explain everything.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Monker » Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:30 am

Memorex wrote:My short take. Neal and Jon should have included Steve, by contract. That seems open and shut.


They applied using Freedom JN LLC. So, I'm not sure how they could have included Perry. The easy way would be to use Elmo Partners LLC...which is just the tree of them.

It seems like Steve is saying the third party company that bought Jon and Neal's rights should also have no right to the trademark.


I think this is just an argument to say they never had the right to claim the trademark to further the reasons why the Freedom JN trademark is invalid.

I think either it ends up being the three of them, or SP and the third party company. I don't know enough about how it works to know.


I think the goal is to invalidate the Freedom JN trademark claim...not necessarily a fight over who owns it.

Good for Neal for doing the work to get those secured and discovering that they could be trademarked, but big thumbs down for cutting SP out, based on their agreement.


I think it is just Neal's ignorance over the business side of Journey. He probably had no clue that Perry had to be included. He SHOULD have because it was quoted in his own lawsuit against Nightmare...but the guy is just not that bright.

That said, who gives a shit on most of those songs. I have never seen anything that says "Hopelessly in Love" relating to Journey. If I saw the slogan, I'd think it was about a lifetime movie. A few, for sure. Unless..... There was about to be a line of Paula and Michaele perfumes, potions, and toilet paper using those names. Then maybe they would want to secure them first.



"hopelessly in love" could be used by some jewelry business. Imagine a huge billboard with two hands with wedding rings, and "Hopelessly In Love" above it, and the name of jewelry store below it. If you look, there is a separate complaint that "Still They Ride" was going to be used by some shoe company...not sure what they planned to do...it looks like they just let it go uncontested.

Maybe Neal figured hey, no one thought to Trademark these, so I will. But for the Elmo agreement, he'd probably right.


It protects over unauthorized use of the song/album title to sell merchandise, to print the words on a t-shirt, etc. Neal's claims they lost a ton of money. I would like to see an example of what he is talking about. He is right to trademark them...even if it means filing under Elmo Partners, or a new LLC...but I don't think they lost much money by not having them trademarked. It would be nice if Herbie could be asked about it, why he didn't do it...but that obviously can't happen.

This post trademarked by Memorex. Memorex trademarked by Memorex.


Yeah, that' is a joke. But, one thing I have read is when submitting something to a publisher that it is amateurish to say it is Copyrighted, because it is implied...professional writers know this. It probably doesn't apply to trademarks, I don't know...but it is an interesting fact.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Journey/Survivor » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:57 am

jrnyman28 wrote:There was talk of a Pineda biopic…


Thanks!
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Journey/Survivor » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:59 am

Memorex wrote:My short take. Neal and Jon should have included Steve, by contract. That seems open and shut.

It seems like Steve is saying the third party company that bought Jon and Neal's rights should also have no right to the trademark.

I think either it ends up being the three of them, or SP and the third party company. I don't know enough about how it works to know.

Good for Neal for doing the work to get those secured and discovering that they could be trademarked, but big thumbs down for cutting SP out, based on their agreement.

That said, who gives a shit on most of those songs. I have never seen anything that says "Hopelessly in Love" relating to Journey. If I saw the slogan, I'd think it was about a lifetime movie. A few, for sure. Unless..... There was about to be a line of Paula and Michaele perfumes, potions, and toilet paper using those names. Then maybe they would want to secure them first.

Maybe Neal figured hey, no one thought to Trademark these, so I will. But for the Elmo agreement, he'd probably right.

This post trademarked by Memorex. Memorex trademarked by Memorex.


I love your tradmark at the end! :lol:
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Re: More legal drama

Postby ebake02 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:55 am

Memorex wrote:My short take. Neal and Jon should have included Steve, by contract. That seems open and shut.

It seems like Steve is saying the third party company that bought Jon and Neal's rights should also have no right to the trademark.

I think either it ends up being the three of them, or SP and the third party company. I don't know enough about how it works to know.

Good for Neal for doing the work to get those secured and discovering that they could be trademarked, but big thumbs down for cutting SP out, based on their agreement.

That said, who gives a shit on most of those songs. I have never seen anything that says "Hopelessly in Love" relating to Journey. If I saw the slogan, I'd think it was about a lifetime movie. A few, for sure. Unless..... There was about to be a line of Paula and Michaele perfumes, potions, and toilet paper using those names. Then maybe they would want to secure them first.

Maybe Neal figured hey, no one thought to Trademark these, so I will. But for the Elmo agreement, he'd probably right.

This post trademarked by Memorex. Memorex trademarked by Memorex.


I'm still trying to figure how Jon, Neal and Michaele thought they could sneak this by Steve without him sniffing it out, it makes me wonder if there’s more to the story than we know about.
Last edited by ebake02 on Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby ebake02 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:28 pm

Eric wrote:The most calm and logical comment I’ve read from Schon is that Perry knew they were on tour and wished he would have talked to him first so he could explain everything.


That’s a two way street too, Neal could have called Perry before they filed those trademarks and explained what they were planning to do.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby jrnyman28 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:11 pm

Monker wrote:
Memorex wrote:t seems like Steve is saying the third party company that bought Jon and Neal's rights should also have no right to the trademark.


I think this is just an argument to say they never had the right to claim the trademark to further the reasons why the Freedom JN trademark is invalid.


Monker wrote:
Memorex wrote:I think either it ends up being the three of them, or SP and the third party company. I don't know enough about how it works to know.


I think the goal is to invalidate the Freedom JN trademark claim...not necessarily a fight over who owns it.


My feelings as well. All the arguing over control or money but I think it’s just about’the right way’.

Memorex wrote:Good for Neal for doing the work to get those secured and discovering that they could be trademarked, but big thumbs down for cutting SP out, based on their agreement.


Absolutely


Memorex wrote:That said, who gives a shit on most of those songs. I have never seen anything that says "Hopelessly in Love" relating to Journey.


It’s just about holding the copyright not about the specific songs.


Monker wrote:
It protects over unauthorized use of the song/album title to sell merchandise, to print the words on a t-shirt, etc. Neal's claims they lost a ton of money. I would like to see an example of what he is talking about.


Pretty sure he’s mostly referring to all the Journey shirts (along other merch) stores like Hot Topic and online stores have offered for sale. Over the decades I am sure it would’ve added up. And the corporation definitely should have profited from that.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Eric » Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:28 pm

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Re: More legal drama

Postby JourneyHard » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:41 am

Neal should NOT be the manager of Journey. This is like Joe Montana being the coach and the quarterback of the 49ers in the 1980's. That wouldn't have worked out so well for the team. Neal should be in charge of the creative side of Journey along with Jon and Narada or whomever, but they need somebody else to run the business side.

I know this will never happen, but Steve Perry would be an excellent manager. He knows how to protect Journey's image and get new songs on the in-store radio around the country. Perry would just be the business side. Perry is NOT as good as Herbie Herbert, but probably better than Neal.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Monker » Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:15 pm

After doing some clicking around, I saw that Neal's copyrights were made public a few weeks before Perry's lawsuit.

It seems everybody "blames" Perry. But, IMO, he probably has attorneys who do nothing but look out for this stuff. They may have consulted Perry before bringing the lawsuit. Or, Perry may just lets them do what they need to do because that is what he pays them to do. Either way, I doubt - very much - that Perry brought this to his attorneys and told him to take care of it.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Onestepper » Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:36 am

Schon's made several interviews recently that said him and Perry had been talking quite a bit about life and about the business. He said they were in a very good place without lawyers for the first time in decades. Then Perry brings the lawsuit and he posts that he was too busy to talk to Perry because he was touring. So the lawsuit took him by surprise. Okay.

I've said for years that Michelle is driving a lot of this and she is behind a number of the terrible business decisions they have made. I fear this another one of them.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Gideon » Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:54 am

Onestepper wrote:Schon's made several interviews recently that said him and Perry had been talking quite a bit about life and about the business. He said they were in a very good place without lawyers for the first time in decades. Then Perry brings the lawsuit and he posts that he was too busy to talk to Perry because he was touring. So the lawsuit took him by surprise. Okay.


Somebody asked him on one of his recent FB posts if whether this was the nail in the coffin to the "open invitation for SP to rejoin them on stage" and such. Neal said yes, that SP filed a lawsuit when they were speaking cordially and while he was on tour, and how SP wants to get paid another fortune like the one he got when Journey was touring after he left the band.

Sounds like that goodwill expired lol.

I've said for years that Michelle is driving a lot of this and she is behind a number of the terrible business decisions they have made. I fear this another one of them.


I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, there's no doubt that Michaele/"Lady M" (cringe af) is a shit-stirrer who exacerbates Neal's worst instincts for narcissism and drama whorishness.

On the other hand, I will say that some of Schon's aggression has been good? Lollapalooza? iHeart Radio Music festival? The NYE show? An American Idol cameo? Shit like that never happened under Azoff so I'm inclined to believe Neal there.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Eric » Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:02 am

Gideon wrote:
I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, there's no doubt that Michaele/"Lady M" (cringe af) is a shit-stirrer who exacerbates Neal's worst instincts for narcissism and drama whorishness.

On the other hand, I will say that some of Schon's aggression has been good? Lollapalooza? iHeart Radio Music festival? The NYE show? An American Idol cameo? Shit like that never happened under Azoff so I'm inclined to believe Neal there.


I'm with you here 100%. He may sounds crazy now and again, but he's the one who does shit for the fans. A great tour with a more varied setlist from night to night, A LOT of events as you mentioned and a new album the last year. Can't beat it. And there are plans for the next 3 years. The rest of the bunch want to retire, which is fine, but its hard to side with them regardless of the situation. Journey will be gone someday and will be within a snap of a finger. Schon is the ONLY one keeping things going.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Journey/Survivor » Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:26 pm

Gideon wrote:
Onestepper wrote:Schon's made several interviews recently that said him and Perry had been talking quite a bit about life and about the business. He said they were in a very good place without lawyers for the first time in decades. Then Perry brings the lawsuit and he posts that he was too busy to talk to Perry because he was touring. So the lawsuit took him by surprise. Okay.


Somebody asked him on one of his recent FB posts if whether this was the nail in the coffin to the "open invitation for SP to rejoin them on stage" and such. Neal said yes, that SP filed a lawsuit when they were speaking cordially and while he was on tour, and how SP wants to get paid another fortune like the one he got when Journey was touring after he left the band.

Sounds like that goodwill expired lol.

I've said for years that Michelle is driving a lot of this and she is behind a number of the terrible business decisions they have made. I fear this another one of them.


I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, there's no doubt that Michaele/"Lady M" (cringe af) is a shit-stirrer who exacerbates Neal's worst instincts for narcissism and drama whorishness.

On the other hand, I will say that some of Schon's aggression has been good? Lollapalooza? iHeart Radio Music festival? The NYE show? An American Idol cameo? Shit like that never happened under Azoff so I'm inclined to believe Neal there.


Agreed.

Other than maybe when Pineda joined Journey, the band hadn't had as many high profile appearances on TV or in big concerts with Azoff in charge as they've had with Schon running things.

And it wasn't Azoff getting them the publicity, it was Pineda's story that was getting them that publicity.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby Gideon » Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:00 am

Yeah, now to be clear, I'm not saying it's a good idea for Schon to be in full control of the band.

As I said, he's transformed Journey's social media presence into being entirely about him. Fuck, his wife appears more often than the other major creative pillar, Jon.

That's unacceptable and pathetic. I understand Neal's the main guy, but no one gives a fuck about his wife. Jon is infinitely more important and Neal needs to remember that Journey is an ensemble whose music is far bigger than any single contributor.

That said... when it comes to the high profile engagements? Schon gets an A+ from me. It's sad that so much of Journey's resurgence since 2008 was squandered.
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Re: More legal drama

Postby JourneyHard » Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:09 am

Here is an interesting video about all of this from the legal side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt0RXtsu4UY


They said young people under 30 don't even know who Steve Perry is. He has been a hermit hiding in a cave. These young people know Arnel as the voice of Journey.

They said if Perry rejoins Journey for the 50th anniversary tour that ticket prices will go through the roof from demand to see the concert. I disagree with this. Did Traces go mutli-platinum? I doubt people care about Perry that much.

Also, remember, it was Herbie Herbert would gave Perry, Schon, Cain, Valory and Smith equal shares. That was smart to keep harmony in the band. But Perry said "Nuts to that." And Perry fired Valory and Smith. So, Perry, Schon, and Cain would get equal shares. Perry is the one who fractured Journey. Not Neal and Jon. Later in the lawsuit, it was Herbie Herbert who was trying to put things back the way they were with all five of them having equal shares.

In this video, they keep calling Perry an original member of Journey. :roll:

I like how the guy thinks this is just a promotional stunt to get people ready for their big tour next year. He keeps calling it free. But it isn't free. They are spending millions on the lawsuit.
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