Anyone read Neil Daniels' "The Untold Story of Journey?

[SusieP]

I have just read it.

First thing that hit me is how many typos and grammatical errors there are in it. Don't writers/publishers employ proof readers any more?

For example....



"we attained a huger live audience because new were playing so much." WTF? Sentence doesn't make sense.

"we hung together through thick and thing." WTF? They hung out with The Munsters?


"take a peak." WTF? A mountain peak? Or take a peek, as in look at something?



Also, factual stuff - no date of birth given for Jonathan but there is for everyone else.



And in the part about Steve Augeri it says that - "after time off Augeri restarted Talisman." Erm, I'm no expert but wasn't his band called Tall Stories? And wasn't Talisman JSS's band?




Lots of quotes [plus the foreword] from our very own Andrew McNeice in there.
And nothing in there that we don't all know already.

But I like it because it has all the info in chronological order which is better than hunting around the internet for individual articles/interviews.





The overall feeling I got after finishing this book is that I really want to read an autobiography written by Herbie Herbert.

What a character that guy is.


Anyone else read the book?

Thoughts?

Just curious.

[Saint John]

I think Deano and I deserve an apology. We told you this book would be utter shit and it is. Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed. What a pile of shit and a pathetic stab at grabbing a few dollars. Thanks for the review, though, Susie. Hopefully, no one else buys it.

[SusieP]

No probs ,Dan.

tis my duty to pass on information. I have reviewed it on amazon, too, of course.

It was bloody expensive too.

But then, isn't everything in this country I reside in.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Andrew is a good writer. I'd be interested in reading his forward.

[Andrew]

Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed.

Why?

I wrote a short piece about the band to summerize their appeal. Didn't have diddly squat to do with the book itself.

[steveo777]

Frankly, I wasn't gonna buy this book anyway or give a shit about it one way or the other.
Just, meh........ Same old shit, different day, different book. Most of us already know there
will be nothing new to tell. Was there anything in there we didn't already know about, Susie?

[MartyMoffatt]

I’ve got it and I’m currently reading it. I scanned through it briefly when it arrived last week and immediately noticed two errors – the Talisman/Tall Stories faux pas and the misspelling of the UK fan club’s website (www.journey.co.uk instead of www.journeyrock.co.uk). Some of the other grammatical errors and bad spellings I suspect are due to lifting quotes and text directly from other sources – do you correct the originally misspelt text or do you leave it? The honest approach would be to leave it, especially if you are referencing the source.

I’m fairly new to Journey’s music, having really only listened to them for the first time in around 2004. Therefore, the chronological approach this book has taken, gathering material, interviews and reviews from hundreds of sources has been very useful to me in filling in the gaps in my knowledge. It does drive home how the band’s complex and ever changing dynamics developed over the years. Despite a few errors, there is a lot of information here and, although I’m only about two chapters in (I’m a slow reader!) I’m quite enjoying it.

I even got an acknowledgement in the end credits, although I’m not sure what for. I did have a five minute conversation with Neil while he was writing the book, in which I explained the activities of the UK fan club and our ultimately successful petition to get Journey over the UK back in 2006 (which merited no more than a couple of sentences in the book) but that was my only involvement.

Marty

[Saint John]

Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed.

Why?

When you're in the business world and held to professional standards, there's a certain level of integrity that you want associated with your name. By allowing your name to be a part of a book, regardless of your contribution, you're telling the reader(s) that this is a product you stand behind. But the seemingly simple mistakes that a proofreader, any proofreader, should have corrected, casts your name is a less than positive light. Is it the end of the world? No. But it's just a situation where I think your name being associated with the book probably has more negatives than positives.

[MartyMoffatt]

Tell, me Dan, have you actually READ the book? Or are you just pontificating and/or prejudging?

[Saint John]

Tell, me Dan, have you actually READ the book? Or are you just pontificating and/or prejudging?

I really have no interest in reading the book, as I doubt there's anything in there that can't be found here. And Susie's brief recap of the grammatical errors in the book tells me it's not something that I want to pay for.

PS It's "Tell me, Dan, ... "

[Michigan Girl]

I’m fairly new to Journey’s music, having really only listened to them for the first time in around 2004. Therefore, the chronological approach this book has taken, gathering material, interviews and reviews from hundreds of sources has been very useful to me in filling in the gaps in my knowledge. Marty

I'm pretty sure this is their target audience and the old fans who really just
paid attention to the music, per se ...I agree w/SJ and Deano and whomever else may
have said that all of the inf. and probably more/juicier, can be found here!! I haven't read
the book, basing this ^^^ on Susie's, inf!!

[koberry]

Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed.

Why?

When you're in the business world and held to professional standards, there's a certain level of integrity that you want associated with your name. By allowing your name to be a part of a book, regardless of your contribution, you're telling the reader(s) that this is a product you stand behind. But the seemingly simple mistakes that a proofreader, any proofreader, should have corrected, casts your name is a less than positive light. Is it the end of the world? No. But it's just a situation where I think your name being associated with the book probably has more negatives than positives.

Easy fella. I getcher point. Not the end of the world, here.
Didja know that in the Lincoln memorial in DC, there's a misspelling in Lincoln's second inaugural speech?

[Saint John]

Didja know that in the Lincoln memorial in DC, there's a misspelling in Lincoln's second inaugural speech?

I sure as shit didn't, but I'm on my fucking way there now to see to it that it gets corrected!

[hoagiepete]

"we hung together through thick and thing." WTF? They hung out with The Munsters?

Since we are editing and correcting, "Thing" was part of the Adams Family show, not Munsters.

[MartyMoffatt]

I really have no interest in reading the book, as I doubt there's anything in there that can't be found here. And Susie's brief recap of the grammatical errors in the book tells me it's not something that I want to pay for.

So, as I suspected, you are indeed pre-judging.

Undoubtedly the book does contain errors, and to the Journey nerds among us here they will stick out like sore thumbs. To the average reader and, as MichiganGirl suggests, its target audience, it represents a single detailed chronological history of the band, with independently verifiable sources (quotes, anecdotes, interviews, reviews etc) all referenced within the text.

Most of the poor grammar I’ve noticed so far has been contained within quoted texts from other sources. I’ll reserve judgement on how much or how important those errors are until I’ve read the whole book. If I’d been writing a book of this nature I might have been inclined to leave quotes ‘as is’ to avoid the risk of changing the context of the quote. On the other hand, if the originally quoted text is so poorly written as to distort its intended point, perhaps it should be fixed.

However, factual errors in biographical books are not unusual – Ozzy Osbourne’s and Lemmy’s autobiographies for instance are full of factual mistakes/inconsistencies and first hand grammatical mistakes, but they are both hugely entertaining reads nevertheless. As a Rush fan I’ve read at least four separate biographies of that band, and they often contradict each other in minor details, but the basic chronological details are sound. Likewise with Neil Daniels’ book. I’d be interested to hear from the Journey experts if the historical facts quoted (particularly of the Rolie/Perry periods that I’m less familiar with) are wrong in any major sense.

I don’t think the current band members had any direct involvement in (or even approved) any of the content of the book, so all its source material is second hand or from interviews with peripheral characters in Journey’s convoluted history. I do think it’s a creditable effort to pull the information together. It’s not perfect by any means (and I’m as critical as anybody of bad prose), but it’s better than any other book I’ve seen on Journey to date!

Marty

[conversationpc]

Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed.

Why?

I wrote a short piece about the band to summerize their appeal. Didn't have diddly squat to do with the book itself.

Perhaps Andrew was the proofreader?

[PowerChords]

Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed.

Why?

I wrote a short piece about the band to summerize their appeal. Didn't have diddly squat to do with the book itself.

Perhaps Andrew was the proofreader?

"summerize" meaning to prepare for summer use. Could have been "winterized" but Andrew preferred summer.

[Saint John]

So, as I suspected, you are indeed pre-judging.

I think post-judging would be a more accurate term, as I'm making comments based on Susie's brief, but specific, synopsis after having read the book. But I get your point, sir. My problem is this, though. Such small, yet easily fixable errors, will, for some, immediately turn them away based on this information. Consumers are demanding and they should be, as they pay for products with their earned money. And one of the first things they do in this day and age is look for reviews, and I'm certain that these errors will be chronicled in reviews.

I don’t think the current band members had any direct involvement in (or even approved) any of the content of the book, so all its source material is second hand or from interviews with peripheral characters in Journey’s convoluted history.

And this is exactly why having your name attached to a book like this could sour a relationship with a band member or members. But I doubt it will. I just think that being diligent and looking into anything that has your name attached to it is the proper protocol. It'll keep you out of the cross hairs of a member or members that might be looking for a reason to severe ties. You know, some of these rock dudes can be pricks.

I do think it’s a creditable effort to pull the information together. It’s not perfect by any means (and I’m as critical as anybody of bad prose), but it’s better than any other book I’ve seen on Journey to date!

Marty

Well, at least to me, this means a lot. Your work is impeccable and, in my book, virtually second to none. If you're giving it a passing grade, then that's a pretty good barometer of the book's actual content. I respect the shit out of the work you and Andrew do, especially considering that many times it can probably be a pretty thankless gig. Please know that somewhere between the serious side of my original post and the typical message board shit-headed-ness, there's a whole lot of respect for what you two guys do.

[Rip Rokken]

If the misspellings are in text quoted from other sources, then (sic) should be added to indicate they are the other guy's fault. If by chance the book was written from an iPhone with autocorrect enabled, then that explains everything, and Apple can be blamed.

[steveo777]

If the misspellings are in text quoted from other sources, then (sic) should be added to indicate they are the other guy's fault. If by chance the book was written from an iPhone with autocorrect enabled, then that explains everything, and Apple can be blamed.

It's Bush's fault!

[Art Vandelay]

Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed.

Why?

When you're in the business world and held to professional standards, there's a certain level of integrity that you want associated with your name. By allowing your name to be a part of a book, regardless of your contribution, you're telling the reader(s) that this is a product you stand behind. But the seemingly simple mistakes that a proofreader, any proofreader, should have corrected, casts your name is a less than positive light. Is it the end of the world? No. But it's just a situation where I think your name being associated with the book probably has more negatives than positives.

Couldn't agree with you more. Product of association is a strong thing. If you see a person in any way associated with a project or product first hand, the assumption is going to be made that they not only stand behind it, but are 100% aware what the product is about.

[SusieP]

"we hung together through thick and thing." WTF? They hung out with The Munsters?

Since we are editing and correcting, "Thing" was part of the Adams Family show, not Munsters.

Cousin It was in the Addams family surely?
My mistake if I got my monsters confused.
He certainly wasnt in Journey.




And - I didn't charge you ten pounds plus shipping to read my mistake.









.

[SusieP]

Frankly, I wasn't gonna buy this book anyway or give a shit about it one way or the other.
Just, meh........ Same old shit, different day, different book. Most of us already know there
will be nothing new to tell. Was there anything in there we didn't already know about, Susie?

There is nothing in it we don't all know.

In fact there is decidedly LESS in it than we all know.


As far as I can see, it is mainly stuff from interviews we have all read on the net.
But it is nice to have all of it in one place and put into chronological order.

However I do not think that any book should have spelling mistakes.
Especially one which costs over ten pounds.



It's expensive for what it is.
And it tells us nothing new - but as there is only the Robyn Flans book out there about Journey it's probably going to sell a few copies.

[RedWingFan]

Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed.

Why?

I wrote a short piece about the band to summerize their appeal. Didn't have diddly squat to do with the book itself.

Perhaps Andrew was the proofreader?

Check out ole DavePC poking his head in and giving poor Drew a swift kick in the nuts!!! LMAO!!!

[Andrew]

Anyone associated with it, which, unfortunately, includes Andrew, should be embarrassed.

Why?

When you're in the business world and held to professional standards, there's a certain level of integrity that you want associated with your name. By allowing your name to be a part of a book, regardless of your contribution, you're telling the reader(s) that this is a product you stand behind. But the seemingly simple mistakes that a proofreader, any proofreader, should have corrected, casts your name is a less than positive light. Is it the end of the world? No. But it's just a situation where I think your name being associated with the book probably has more negatives than positives.

You are over thinking this dude. Don't strain yourself.

[G.I.Jim]

So, as I suspected, you are indeed pre-judging.

I think post-judging would be a more accurate term, as I'm making comments based on Susie's brief, but specific, synopsis after having read the book. But I get your point, sir. My problem is this, though. Such small, yet easily fixable errors, will, for some, immediately turn them away based on this information. Consumers are demanding and they should be, as they pay for products with their earned money. And one of the first things they do in this day and age is look for reviews, and I'm certain that these errors will be chronicled in reviews.

I don’t think the current band members had any direct involvement in (or even approved) any of the content of the book, so all its source material is second hand or from interviews with peripheral characters in Journey’s convoluted history.

And this is exactly why having your name attached to a book like this could sour a relationship with a band member or members. But I doubt it will. I just think that being diligent and looking into anything that has your name attached to it is the proper protocol. It'll keep you out of the cross hairs of a member or members that might be looking for a reason to severe ties. You know, some of these rock dudes can be pricks.

I do think it’s a creditable effort to pull the information together. It’s not perfect by any means (and I’m as critical as anybody of bad prose), but it’s better than any other book I’ve seen on Journey to date!

Marty

Well, at least to me, this means a lot. Your work is impeccable and, in my book, virtually second to none. If you're giving it a passing grade, then that's a pretty good barometer of the book's actual content. I respect the shit out of the work you and Andrew do, especially considering that many times it can probably be a pretty thankless gig. Please know that somewhere between the serious side of my original post and the typical message board shit-headed-ness, there's a whole lot of respect for what you two guys do.

Dude, did they hack your account AGAIN???

[SusieP]

It’s not perfect by any means (and I’m as critical as anybody of bad prose), but it’s better than any other book I’ve seen on Journey to date!

Marty

What other Journey books are there, though?
The Robyn Flans one and Laura's one about Steve Perry? Any more?

Not many to compete with really.
The Flans one is hardly a book. More a thick magazine.
And Laura's is about SP not really the Band.




And ok, I may be a pain in the ass for being annoyed that there are lots of mistakes like 'of' instead of 'off' and 'you're' instead of 'your' and 'reigns' instead of 'reins' - but to me, a professional writer should make sure their final draft is spelled correctly.

And the publishers should get it proof read before selling the final product to people like me.

If I sang out of tune at my gigs, people would feel very disgruntled and rightly so.

[MartyMoffatt]

So, as I suspected, you are indeed pre-judging.

I think post-judging would be a more accurate term, as I'm making comments based on Susie's brief, but specific, synopsis after having read the book. But I get your point, sir. My problem is this, though. Such small, yet easily fixable errors, will, for some, immediately turn them away based on this information. Consumers are demanding and they should be, as they pay for products with their earned money. And one of the first things they do in this day and age is look for reviews, and I'm certain that these errors will be chronicled in reviews.

I respect Suzie’s review and, to some extent, I agree with it. A few years ago these grammatical mistakes would really have niggled me. But these days I see similar mistakes in just about every book I read (with the exception of books by my favourite author Isaac Asimov, whose text is pretty much perfect every time ). Maybe not as many small errors as in Neil’s book, but I’ve learned to be more lenient, otherwise I’d never finish a book.

I don’t think the current band members had any direct involvement in (or even approved) any of the content of the book, so all its source material is second hand or from interviews with peripheral characters in Journey’s convoluted history.

And this is exactly why having your name attached to a book like this could sour a relationship with a band member or members. But I doubt it will. I just think that being diligent and looking into anything that has your name attached to it is the proper protocol. It'll keep you out of the cross hairs of a member or members that might be looking for a reason to severe ties. You know, some of these rock dudes can be pricks.

It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve inadvertently, and quite innocently, upset some rock star or manager. However, I’ve always tried hard to remain neutral rather than take sides, and that usually enables me to continue working with all parties. It doesn’t always work though. As you say, some of these rock dudes....

I do think it’s a creditable effort to pull the information together. It’s not perfect by any means (and I’m as critical as anybody of bad prose), but it’s better than any other book I’ve seen on Journey to date!

Well, at least to me, this means a lot. Your work is impeccable and, in my book, virtually second to none. If you're giving it a passing grade, then that's a pretty good barometer of the book's actual content. I respect the shit out of the work you and Andrew do, especially considering that many times it can probably be a pretty thankless gig. Please know that somewhere between the serious side of my original post and the typical message board shit-headed-ness, there's a whole lot of respect for what you two guys do.

I must admit I was being a little ironic here, as I’ve never seen another Journey book . The point is, though, that although all the information in this book is available elsewhere, I for one don’t have the time or inclination to go trawling the internet looking for it, to assimilate it, to sequence it, or to make sense of it. Neil’s book attempts to do all that – how successful he was is subject to the reader’s interpretation - but until one of the core members of the Journey camp provides a first hand account of some of these experiences, it’s pretty much all we have. For that reason I believe the positives outweigh the negatives.

However, thanks for the kudos. Andrew certainly deserves it. I’m just lucky that I (sometimes) get to do what I do.

Marty

[Eric]

I've begun to read it and am really enjoying it. Some new Herbie quotes.....and a nice package in one place. I've seen some minor gaffes but nothing big. I have also encountered some things I wasn't aware, like the Journey hard core fans hating Fleischman and that Perry was a sound engineer in the 70's before joining Journey.

[SF-Dano]

Is there much information on the time prior to TBF regarding the possible reformation with Rollie and the addition of Chalfant? Anything deeper than just a statement that this was in the works?