The "Legacy Sound"

[Saint John]

This has been discussed, debated and and less than civilly fought over on here more than a few times. The "legacy sound" is, obviously, most associated with the Schon, Valory, Smith, Perry and Cain lineup. However, what is the biggest component of that "legacy sound"? Most would say it's Steve Perry, because bands are almost always associated with vocals, and he was certainly one of a kind. And while that's certainly a large component, I'm not so sure that that's the biggest component of that sound. Is it Neal's guitar? While he'll always be associated with Journey, and I can't see them ever having another guitarist, I don't think his guitar is the biggest part of that so-called legacy sound.

I think I've figured out what, at least to the casual masses, is the largest component of the so-called legacy sound. Again, I'm not in any way lessening the contributions of Schon and Perry, but I think that the Jonathan Cain keyboards are the biggest component. When he joined the band, it ushered in a unique era and the hits almost always start with his keys. Don't Stop Believin', Who's Cryin' Now, Open Arms, Separate Ways, Faithfully, Ask The Lonely, Girl Can't Help It, Be Good To Yourself, When You Love A Woman and Message Of Love. I think the fact that After All These Years garnered so much AC play, and is their biggest post-Perry hit illustrates the point. It has that beginning that tells you"Hey, this is a Journey song!" and the casual masses realized and accepted that.

In closing, I think that besides a horrible launch by absent management, Eclipse is missing that legacy sound that is Jonathan Cain's keys/piano. You could have put 1981 Steve Perry on there and released it and it wasn't going resonate (ha ha) with the majority of casual fans. They need those keys/piano in the beginning to tell them that it's a Journey song, and then, and almost always only then, will they sit back, relax and enjoy it. And I suspect that the next album they release will go back to the tried and true formula of having those keys+soaring tenor+Neal's guitar. I'd also speculate that they'll go back to the more formulaic choruses as well. And it'll do a lot better than this release (at this point, it would be hard to do worse ). Jon and Neal seemed to really be squabbling over this album, and it's now pretty obvious that Jon was right. I just hope he's around for (at least) one more album.

So ... thoughts?

[Gideon]

What does and what does not consist of "the legacy sound" isn't a very straightforward topic for me, because I put a lot of weight in the contributions of Neal and Jon, as well as Perry. I think 'the Journey sound' as a whole requires all three components: a strong tenor voice, searing guitar solos, and melodic keyboards. I don't think it's just any of the three; Perry was hardly the only rock tenor, Neal Schon was hardly a solitary virtuoso, and Cain's hardly the only prolific keyboardist - and that's just in this genre alone. I'd also argue that lyrical content is equally important to the Journey sound, with songs about triumphing over adversity, no matter what the odds.

Eclipse has all of these components, they're just applied differently and sprinkled with some new factors. As one of the younger fans, I like that they're branching out a bit without abandoning their roots completely.

[Saint John]

I think 'the Journey sound' as a whole requires all three components: a strong tenor voice, searing guitar solos, and melodic keyboards.

Which is exactly why I said this:

And I suspect that the next album they release will go back to the tried and true formula of having those keys+soaring tenor+Neal's guitar.

Again, this thread isn't about what constitutes the legacy sound, but, rather, what is the biggest part of it, to the casual masses. Just look at the songs from the Perry era that don't start with Jon's keys/piano. Most of them never charted.

[Gideon]

Again, this thread isn't about what constitutes the legacy sound, but, rather, what is the biggest part of it, to the casual masses. Just look at the songs from the Perry era that don't start with Jon's keys/piano. Most of them never charted.

I think if you were to ask the casual masses, they'd say Perry.

[Saint John]

Again, this thread isn't about what constitutes the legacy sound, but, rather, what is the biggest part of it, to the casual masses. Just look at the songs from the Perry era that don't start with Jon's keys/piano. Most of them never charted.

I think if you were to ask the casual masses, they'd say Perry.

Then FTLOSM should have done better, as should have the songs while he was in Journey without the prominent keys. But I agree that they would say that. Doesn't mean they know what they're talking about, though.

[portland]

Again, this thread isn't about what constitutes the legacy sound, but, rather, what is the biggest part of it, to the casual masses. Just look at the songs from the Perry era that don't start with Jon's keys/piano. Most of them never charted.

I think if you were to ask the casual masses, they'd say Perry.

Then FTLOSM should have done better, as should have the songs while he was in Journey without the prominent keys. But I agree that they would say that. Doesn't mean they know what they're talking about, though.

I think the Legacy sound comes from the sum of three, Perry + Schon + Cain = The Legacy.

It hasn't been the same since.

[Gideon]

Again, this thread isn't about what constitutes the legacy sound, but, rather, what is the biggest part of it, to the casual masses. Just look at the songs from the Perry era that don't start with Jon's keys/piano. Most of them never charted.

I think if you were to ask the casual masses, they'd say Perry.

Then FTLOSM should have done better, as should have the songs while he was in Journey without the prominent keys. But I agree that they would say that. Doesn't mean they know what they're talking about, though.

I see what you mean, but that's a risky argument. Expect Don to come here in the near future and compare Perry's solo sales to Cain's.

[slucero]

I'd posit that the "Legacy Sound" isn't a sound at all... it was the unique process and combination of Jon, Steve and Neal meshing their ideas...

Jon actually says what it is better ...

“Steve had this whole thing of sort of wanting to sing the ballads. He loved the power ballad and I did, too. He liked the way I played the piano and my feel so it was really easy. He could’ve been a stickler. He could’ve been the other way and not liked anything I played. But, he liked everything I played. And he would sing all the time. I would start playing something and he would be singing. It was truly cool. I had no idea because he could be difficult like everybody can in that lead singer department. But he wasn’t. He and I had a kinship.

“I noticed that Neal was wanting to get more of his ideas seen, too. So I took a bunch of his tapes and went through all of them – sort of played middle man between him and Steve. I said, ‘You know, I think Neal has some great stuff. Let’s really look at it.’ The two of us really – it was almost like he wanted another songwriting partner to look at Neal’s stuff. I helped him and we crafted some great stuff on that Escape album. That was the beginning. It’s kind of cool that I became the glue, you know, for the two of them. We just had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot.”

http://www.boomerocity.com/jonathancain7.html

[yulog]

FTLOSM = 1994
Grunge music height =1994

Number of melodic rock bands doing as well as they did in the 80's in 1994= 2? 3?...Lets say 5

I think Aerosmith was doing well at this time


It was Green day, Sheryl crow and Boys to men time .....not Journey, REO and Loverboy time.

[Saint John]

FTLOSM = 1994
Grunge music height =1994

Number of melodic rock bands doing as well as they did in the 80's in 1994= 2? 3?...Lets say 5

I think Aerosmith was doing well at this time


It was Green day, Sheryl crow and Boys to men time .....not Journey, REO and Loverboy time.

This is simply not factually correct. Kurt Cobain killed himself in early 1994 and Pearl Jam was barely able to tour that year. Grunge was all but dead. This time ushered in the post-grunge era, and bands more rock oriented like Foo Fighters, Staind, Creed, Candlebox, Collective Soul and Nickleback began to hit it big. FTLOSM just wasn't good. And that had nothing to do with the fallacy that Grunge held it back.

[scarygirl]

FTLOSM = 1994
Grunge music height =1994

Number of melodic rock bands doing as well as they did in the 80's in 1994= 2? 3?...Lets say 5

I think Aerosmith was doing well at this time


It was Green day, Sheryl crow and Boys to men time .....not Journey, REO and Loverboy time.

This is simply not factually correct. Kurt Cobain killed himself in early 1994 and Pearl Jam was barely able to tour that year. Grunge was all but dead. This time ushered in the post-grunge era, and bands more rock oriented like Foo Fighters, Staind, Creed, Candlebox, Collective Soul and Nickleback began to hit it big. FTLOSM just wasn't good. And that had nothing to do with the fallacy that Grunge held it back.

FLOSM = wrong album, wrong era. Personally, I think FLOSM would have done much better if it had been dropped sometime in the eighties. Like right after he left the ROR tour. Just my opinion.

[yulog]

FTLOSM = 1994
Grunge music height =1994

Number of melodic rock bands doing as well as they did in the 80's in 1994= 2? 3?...Lets say 5

I think Aerosmith was doing well at this time


It was Green day, Sheryl crow and Boys to men time .....not Journey, REO and Loverboy time.

This is simply not factually correct. Kurt Cobain killed himself in early 1994 and Pearl Jam was barely able to tour that year. Grunge was all but dead. This time ushered in the post-grunge era, and bands more rock oriented like Foo Fighters, Staind, Creed, Candlebox, Collective Soul and Nickleback began to hit it big. FTLOSM just wasn't good. And that had nothing to do with the fallacy that Grunge held it back.

Cobain died in April of 94 in the peak of grunge ,Perry released his album in July the same year. Pearl jams Vitalogy hadn't even been released yet, not to mention bush or silverchair and a plethera of others. The only thing playing on radios at that time was Grunge, rap,and pop.

Perry never had a chance , 7-8 yrs post Journey. Grunge ruled the airwaves even as late as 97. It was what everyone was listening to , if anything Cobain killing himself helped keep grunge around a little longer.

[Saint John]

Yulog, in 1995 Dave Matthews Band, Ace Of Base, Shania Twain, Elton John, Madonna, Natalie Merchant, TLC, Mariah Carey, Bryan Adams, Goo Goo Dolls, Alanis Morrisette, Whitney Houston, Garth Brooks, Celine Dion, Seal, Annie Lennox, Hootie and The Blowfish and Michael Jackson all had pretty big pop hits. Why didn't "the height of grunge" affect their music?

[fredinator]

Great thread. The legacy sound--the real guts and heart of Journey--comes from the finest trio of rock n roll musicians out of the 70s--Neal, Gregg and Steve. Those songs like Lights and Wheel In the Sky and the Party's Over and For You and Patiently, People and Places, Stay Awhile, Daydream, Spaceman, Gawd, what a list of songs. There's nothing else like it to me and I remember tons of music from the 60s and 70s... Anyway, this is my heartfelt opinion--the music Journey made from that era will forever be in my heart and mind--when I hear Neal's guitar or SP's voice or Gregg--the harmonies and the TUNES--dang, I'm on a freaking time machine. The 80s music not doubt just capitalized on what was already laid down but for the raw strength and feeling of the band, the legacy comes from that era. Gawd, my eyes got a little watery while writing this, lol.... Thanks Neal for keeping it together--the music still means so much to me and never fails to bring up emotions and memories that are such a huge part of my life...

[portland]

Great thread. The legacy sound--the real guts and heart of Journey--comes from the finest trio of rock n roll musicians out of the 70s--Neal, Gregg and Steve. Those songs like Lights and Wheel In the Sky and the Party's Over and For You and Patiently, People and Places, Stay Awhile, Daydream, Spaceman, Gawd, what a list of songs. There's nothing else like it to me and I remember tons of music from the 60s and 70s... Anyway, this is my heartfelt opinion--the music Journey made from that era will forever be in my heart and mind--when I hear Neal's guitar or SP's voice or Gregg--the harmonies and the TUNES--dang, I'm on a freaking time machine. The 80s music not doubt just capitalized on what was already laid down but for the raw strength and feeling of the band, the legacy comes from that era. Gawd, my eyes got a little watery while writing this, lol.... Thanks Neal for keeping it together--the music still means so much to me and never fails to bring up emotions and memories that are such a huge part of my life...

Funny, I was thinking that Greg was a part of the Legacy sound as well...but for the hits that people want to listen to today...it's Perry, Schon and Cain...Many of the fans of today's line up don't hold the golden days of Journey like some of us do.

[Gideon]

I don't mean to diminish Gregg's talent or his influence on Journey, but he didn't enhance their success nearly to the extent Cain did.

[portland]

I don't mean to diminish Gregg's talent or his influence on Journey, but he didn't enhance their success nearly to the extent Cain did.

I was not referring to you Giddy....I know that you know the back catalog...some to their loss don't.

[Gideon]

I don't mean to diminish Gregg's talent or his influence on Journey, but he didn't enhance their success nearly to the extent Cain did.

I was not referring to you Giddy....I know that you know the back catalog...some to their loss don't.

Right, but what I mean is that even someone who loves the back catalog would have to admit that Cain helped them achieve success to a far greater extent than Gregg.

It's funny. I actually prefer the Cain-era vastly in the studio, but it's hard to top Captured live.

[portland]

I don't mean to diminish Gregg's talent or his influence on Journey, but he didn't enhance their success nearly to the extent Cain did.

I was not referring to you Giddy....I know that you know the back catalog...some to their loss don't.

Right, but what I mean is that even someone who loves the back catalog would have to admit that Cain helped them achieve success to a far greater extent than Gregg.

It's funny. I actually prefer the Cain-era vastly in the studio, but it's hard to top Captured live.

Yes....I agree with the above...I really love Greg and Steve's voice's together...but the hit machine was Perry, Cain and Schon...hence the Legacy title.

[fredinator]

Oh no not diminishing Cain's contributions at all. Great, great, great musician. This is a discussion of the legacy sound and to me the legacy sound has its roots in the early 70s--Neal, Gregg, Ross, Herbie--but the biggest impact has to be these 4 + Perry. Loved, loved the 80s music but the roots, the foundation of the band, goes back to really when Neal and Gregg were playing with Santana.

[fredinator]

Journey was pretty freakin' huge in the 70s and considered ROCK AND ROLL, not pop. I remember the King Biscuit Flour Hour shows on the radio--at that time they (Flour Hour) played Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, Bob Dylan, the Beatles, etc., and on and on... They (Journey) were also on PBS--I think the shows were called Center Stage or something--Journey was considered, again, ROCK and ROLL, you know? Things changed in the 80s--I don't know what happened. They still had the legacy sound but for some reason Perry turned pop in a big way and influenced Neal I guess. Maybe it was Cain when he came on on board and Gregg left. I love, love, love Cain but he always seemed pretty pop-ish to me. Anyway, don't care--they are my favorite band so it doesn't matter. However, that 70s feel that I dearly love was gone in the 80s (that goes for me, too, I guess, lol...) *Sigh* Ramble, ramble. Feeling nostalgic I think...

P.S. Success? What does that mean? $$s? Rankings in music lists or something? I don't know... The art part of rock n roll got kind of lost somewhere back then... I miss that really bad.

Sample of "legacy" sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex8J3rPgIb4&playnext=1&list=PL299EC7608C7CE60D

Thanks, Neal!!! Love ya!!

[fredinator]

You know, wouldn't it be awesome, if there weren't so much hate on this forum that Neal himself would post on here and tell us about what is was like to be a part of such a freakin rock n roll monster of a band in the early 70s and beyond. I mean, who else can tell us about it? Gawd, what a band. I've got I'm Gonna Leave You up loud--such a perfect example of rock and roll... Am going to listen to this whole album all night tonight. Thanks for posting this topic, SJ, lol...

[fredinator]

Welp, as long as I've taken over this thread, lol, I just saw this awesome vid on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdbpcQh5u-A&feature=related

Some really awesome comments on this video but haven't even listened to it yet, still stuck on I'm Gonna Leave You, lol... Evidently this whole concert was taped--would love to hear the whole thing--I wonder where the rest of it is? Yahoo, what a great freaking band!!

[slucero]

Welp, as long as I've taken over this thread, lol, I just saw this awesome vid on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdbpcQh5u-A&feature=related

Some really awesome comments on this video but haven't even listened to it yet, still stuck on I'm Gonna Leave You, lol...

WOW.. All Too Much and On A Saturday Night.... way cool.....

[fredinator]

Thanks, Slucero--P A R TA Y YYYYYY!!!!

[Deb]

FTLOSM = 1994
Grunge music height =1994

Number of melodic rock bands doing as well as they did in the 80's in 1994= 2? 3?...Lets say 5

I think Aerosmith was doing well at this time


It was Green day, Sheryl crow and Boys to men time .....not Journey, REO and Loverboy time.

This is simply not factually correct. Kurt Cobain killed himself in early 1994 and Pearl Jam was barely able to tour that year. Grunge was all but dead. This time ushered in the post-grunge era, and bands more rock oriented like Foo Fighters, Staind, Creed, Candlebox, Collective Soul and Nickleback began to hit it big. FTLOSM just wasn't good. And that had nothing to do with the fallacy that Grunge held it back.

LOL yours is simply not factually correct either. Nickleback didn't even form until '95/'96 and they certainly didn't get big until the late 1990s/early 2000s. Kudos to 'em, they were the 2nd best selling foreign act in the U.S. behind The Beatles for the 2000s. LOL no wonder so many americans hate our Alberta boys.

[Deb]

Journey was pretty freakin' huge in the 70s and considered ROCK AND ROLL, not pop. I remember the King Biscuit Flour Hour shows on the radio--at that time they (Flour Hour) played Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, Bob Dylan, the Beatles, etc., and on and on... They (Journey) were also on PBS--I think the shows were called Center Stage or something--Journey was considered, again, ROCK and ROLL, you know? Things changed in the 80s--I don't know what happened. They still had the legacy sound but for some reason Perry turned pop in a big way and influenced Neal I guess. Maybe it was Cain when he came on on board and Gregg left. I love, love, love Cain but he always seemed pretty pop-ish to me. Anyway, don't care--they are my favorite band so it doesn't matter. However, that 70s feel that I dearly love was gone in the 80s (that goes for me, too, I guess, lol...) *Sigh* Ramble, ramble. Feeling nostalgic I think...

P.S. Success? What does that mean? $$s? Rankings in music lists or something? I don't know... The art part of rock n roll got kind of lost somewhere back then... I miss that really bad.

I kinda agree with that. IMO the '70s was THE best for rock n roll music, I'm not as much into the pop either, sure I like alot of songs of Journeys from the 80s, but for me the best rock came out of the 70s. Great music, like Bad Company, etc. etc. Probably why I like bands like Mr Big, VERY 70's bluesy rock influenced.

Sucess is radio hits etc. Maybe I'm an anomoly but 9 times out of 10 I like the deeper cuts or less heard tracks from any band WAY more than their radio hits.

[Saint John]

LOL yours is simply not factually correct either. Nickleback didn't even form until '95/'96

My list was pretty much chronological, which is why they were listed last. Regardless, I posted a plethora of artists in the same/similar genres as Perry, so the excuse that grunge "was at its height" just isn't going to work.

[fredinator]

You know, Ross sounds really prominent on "I'm Gonna Leave You." This must have been a really incredible time for all these guys. You know it's hard to type when I am shaking my head to and fro (lol, fro means back and forth, lol.)

[fredinator]

Gawd, here's such a segue segway? I don't know how to spell this into the Perry era:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTwki0Cayto&feature=relatd

DANG! Who doesn't love this?!? One of a kind band...