New Cain Interview

[nutz4Neal]

[quote="(Crazy)Dulce Lady"]

yea, pretty much. but, AP is a cover singer, not tribute, cuz he did everyone's stuff. very well, I might add. and they didn't search youtube--they found him here. c'mon. they were watching his youtubes at the same time we were. c'mon.


[quote]
Deb, are you serious? Do you really think Neal found Arnel via this site? C'mon...

[(Crazy)Dulce Lady]

[
I disagree Deb Jeff was not the future. Everyone knew that other than Neal. He finally came around to realize what everyone was saying.

ok--then how about this--Journey was prog rock jazz fusion INSTRUMENTAL when they started. AND they started hard-- so maybe I hoped he was to bring back the real journey and get rid of all the bubble gum pop power ballad la--tee---da mess.

I am a loon, make no mistake, but i like my journey harder, that has not ever been a secret. JSS gave me a glimmer that we might actually get Journey back from the throws of pop land. I understand commercial radio play, broad base appeal, making money as a professional musician....yeah yeah, but that's my opinion. proggie, help me out. not right not wrong, just MHO. Vocal scmocal--it's all about the shred. throw in some words if you have to but get it over with quick so we can JAM!!

i am a beach today ain't I? sorry.

[(Crazy)Dulce Lady]

yea, pretty much. but, AP is a cover singer, not tribute, cuz he did everyone's stuff. very well, I might add. and they didn't search youtube--they found him here. c'mon. they were watching his youtubes at the same time we were. c'mon.

Deb, are you serious? Do you really think Neal found Arnel via this site? C'mon...

yes he did. it CAN'T be that much of a coincidence. how many 1,000s and 1,000s of bands are out there and just get lucky?

c'mon. (bonnz-i luv you!! hehe) how do you search for that exactly? we all clicked those Zoo links and marveled at Arnel. it was a big topic for quite a while.

[Lula]

don't forget locknload pimped arnel

[nutz4Neal]

JC: We sure did. Neal and I were both looking on the Internet and we knew we needed to make a change. We knew the brand was going to suffer if we didn’t. As much as [former vocalist] Jeff Scott Soto helped us out, he wasn’t the future for us. We needed to find someone who was going to take us into the next 10 years. We didn’t want a Steve Perry clone or a tribute band singer - we wanted somebody fresh.”

Sounds like an oxymoron to me. If this was the case, then why did they hire Arnel? Arnel was both a Perry clone and a tribute band singer.

Just being realistic. If they wanted something "fresh" they should have went with JSS.

Please don't take it worong. I am a jeff fan but he did not fit Journey. He was not the right fit IMHO after hearing all the boots and see him twice in 2006. Arnel voice is the Journey sound.

I totally agree, Robin. Loved Jeff with SS and saw him in South Bend, loved him there too; BUT, IMO,he was not Journey. And that's not a bad thing..different fit for different bands and sounds. Arnel is perfect for Journey. Oh, and he IS fresh...fresh as the new day...love the guy.

[Since 78]

yea, pretty much. but, AP is a cover singer, not tribute, cuz he did everyone's stuff. very well, I might add. and they didn't search youtube--they found him here. c'mon. they were watching his youtubes at the same time we were. c'mon.

Deb, are you serious? Do you really think Neal found Arnel via this site? C'mon...

I believe that Jeremey said that was was the case! Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[nutz4Neal]

yea, pretty much. but, AP is a cover singer, not tribute, cuz he did everyone's stuff. very well, I might add. and they didn't search youtube--they found him here. c'mon. they were watching his youtubes at the same time we were. c'mon.

Deb, are you serious? Do you really think Neal found Arnel via this site? C'mon...

yes he did. it CAN'T be that much of a coincidence. how many 1,000s and 1,000s of bands are out there and just get lucky?

c'mon. (bonnz-i luv you!! hehe) how do you search for that exactly? we all clicked those Zoo links and marveled at Arnel. it was a big topic for quite a while.

Sistah, I luv you too; but the Zoo links on this site came after Neal found them on UTube & it became news...trust me. He and Lori spent DAYZ searching for singers, it wasn't just like a 'DaTah'..they spent many hours until they found Arnel...really, MR (as awesome as you all are )had nuttin to do wif it.

[(Crazy)Dulce Lady]

JC: We sure did. Neal and I were both looking on the Internet and we knew we needed to make a change. We knew the brand was going to suffer if we didn’t. As much as [former vocalist] Jeff Scott Soto helped us out, he wasn’t the future for us. We needed to find someone who was going to take us into the next 10 years. We didn’t want a Steve Perry clone or a tribute band singer - we wanted somebody fresh.”

Sounds like an oxymoron to me. If this was the case, then why did they hire Arnel? Arnel was both a Perry clone and a tribute band singer.

Just being realistic. If they wanted something "fresh" they should have went with JSS.

Please don't take it worong. I am a jeff fan but he did not fit Journey. He was not the right fit IMHO after hearing all the boots and see him twice in 2006. Arnel voice is the Journey sound.

I totally agree, Robin. Loved Jeff with SS and saw him in South Bend, loved him there too; BUT, IMO,he was not Journey. And that's not a bad thing..different fit for different bands and sounds. Arnel is perfect for Journey. Oh, and he IS fresh...fresh as the new day...love the guy.

both exactly right. qualified slightly by Arnel is the NEW Journey sound---Perry/Cain Journey. absolutely correct. all I'm saying is that Perry/Cain Journey is not originally Journey. not good not bad. and probably the entire free world, and some un free worlds, disagree with me. sigh.........

my point is that the discussion about the "voice' of Journey depends on which Journey you mean. ko?

[Greg]

One could argue that if they wanted a Perry clone, they would have hired J. Hunsicker; who does not only sound like Perry, but have a slight resemblance with him as well. I think they hired Arnel because he can sound like Perry if needed (i.e. when singing the classics), and can sound himself on the new songs.

Technically, they DID hire Jeremey Hunsicker. At least, they had started the hiring process with him and things fell through.
[/i]

Starting the hiring process is different from actually hiring. AFAIK, it fell through because as what Neal said, Jeremey is very good but he sounds too much like Perry and even has a slight resemblance to him, That to me is an indication that they do not want to just be a nostalgia act. As for Arnel sounding like Perry on the classics, I think it's just Journey giving what their fans want. If you have memories of your cherry being popped listening to a Journey song decades ago, then you want that song to sound as close as possible to the original now that you are seeing Journey again on a concert.

On the new songs however, Arnel sounds like Arnel and no one can mistake him for Perry. This, I think is what Jon is talking about wanting somebody fresh.

When the band leaves a "Welcome to Journey" message on the answering machine. It's usually a good sign you've been hired.

[Saint John]

One could argue that if they wanted a Perry clone, they would have hired J. Hunsicker; who does not only sound like Perry, but have a slight resemblance with him as well. I think they hired Arnel because he can sound like Perry if needed (i.e. when singing the classics), and can sound himself on the new songs.

Technically, they DID hire Jeremey Hunsicker. At least, they had started the hiring process with him and things fell through.
[/i]

Starting the hiring process is different from actually hiring. AFAIK, it fell through because as what Neal said, Jeremey is very good but he sounds too much like Perry and even has a slight resemblance to him, That to me is an indication that they do not want to just be a nostalgia act. As for Arnel sounding like Perry on the classics, I think it's just Journey giving what their fans want. If you have memories of your cherry being popped listening to a Journey song decades ago, then you want that song to sound as close as possible to the original now that you are seeing Journey again on a concert.

On the new songs however, Arnel sounds like Arnel and no one can mistake him for Perry. This, I think is what Jon is talking about wanting somebody fresh.

When the band leaves a "Welcome to Journey" message on the answering machine. It's usually a good sign you've been hired.

My computer teacher during my sophomre year of high school said "Welcome to hell" the very first day of class. Didn't mean I was there. If Journey told you that Wolverines make good house pets would you believe them? I love the way Journey's "word" is only good when it's convenient. The way you and the rest of The Heaven's Gate Cult beat them down over their dishonesty and shenanigans you can't possibly come in here and say "I'm right because Journey said so" with a straight face.

[Michigan Girl]

One could argue that if they wanted a Perry clone, they would have hired J. Hunsicker; who does not only sound like Perry, but have a slight resemblance with him as well. I think they hired Arnel because he can sound like Perry if needed (i.e. when singing the classics), and can sound himself on the new songs.

Technically, they DID hire Jeremey Hunsicker. At least, they had started the hiring process with him and things fell through.
[/i]

Starting the hiring process is different from actually hiring. AFAIK, it fell through because as what Neal said, Jeremey is very good but he sounds too much like Perry and even has a slight resemblance to him, That to me is an indication that they do not want to just be a nostalgia act. As for Arnel sounding like Perry on the classics, I think it's just Journey giving what their fans want. If you have memories of your cherry being popped listening to a Journey song decades ago, then you want that song to sound as close as possible to the original now that you are seeing Journey again on a concert.

On the new songs however, Arnel sounds like Arnel and no one can mistake him for Perry. This, I think is what Jon is talking about wanting somebody fresh.

When the band leaves a "Welcome to Journey" message on the answering machine. It's usually a good sign you've been hired.

My computer teacher during my sophomre year of high school said "Welcome to hell" the very first day of class. Didn't mean I was there. If Journey told you that Wolverines make good house pets would you believe them? I love the way Journey's "word" is only good when it's convenient. The way you and the rest of The Heaven's Gate Cult beat them down over their dishonesty and shenanigans you can't possibly come in here and say "I'm right because Journey said so" with a straight face.

Who said they didn't?

[Jeremey]

When the band leaves a "Welcome to Journey" message on the answering machine. It's usually a good sign you've been hired.

In all fairness, it was Journey's accountants who left that message on my machine, actually after a few hours of back and forth calls between myself, Jonathan Cain, John Baruck, and the accountants, pounding out the specifics of my retainer to bring me on board. After a grueling several hours of hammering together a deal, that kind of message is pretty much cut and dry...Though in deference to SJ, "Welcome to Hell" may have been just as accurate.

Just as a side note as I've seen this come up several times now. The party line RE me and Journey now as explained by Journey is "we didn't want a tribute band singer." That's the easiest way to spin the entire debacle at this point for them, as it's a moot and irrelevant point right now. But I assure you, ultimately my vocal resemblance to Mr Perry had nothing to do with the hiring of Arnel Pineda. I know that, Journey knows that, and what anyone else believes is really irrelevant at this point. Additionally, I think it's kind of disingenuous to downplay and discredit my role in all of this when I have writing credit on their new gold CD. "We didn't want a tribute band singer but he did write these songs with us, versus the singer we hired, whom we couldn't really communicate with during the songwriting process because he spoke very little english." Sorry, it just rubs me the wrong way.

[bluejeangirl76]

"Welcome to Hell" may have been just as accurate.

LMFAO!

[Saint John]

When the band leaves a "Welcome to Journey" message on the answering machine. It's usually a good sign you've been hired.

In all fairness, it was Journey's accountants who left that message on my machine, actually after a few hours of back and forth calls between myself, Jonathan Cain, John Baruck, and the accountants, pounding out the specifics of my retainer to bring me on board. After a grueling several hours of hammering together a deal, that kind of message is pretty much cut and dry...Though in deference to SJ, "Welcome to Hell" may have been just as accurate.

Just as a side note as I've seen this come up several times now. The party line RE me and Journey now as explained by Journey is "we didn't want a tribute band singer." That's the easiest way to spin the entire debacle at this point for them, as it's a moot and irrelevant point right now. But I assure you, ultimately my vocal resemblance to Mr Perry had nothing to do with the hiring of Arnel Pineda. I know that, Journey knows that, and what anyone else believes is really irrelevant at this point. Additionally, I think it's kind of disingenuous to downplay and discredit my role in all of this when I have writing credit on their new gold CD. "We didn't want a tribute band singer but he did write these songs with us, versus the singer we hired, whom we couldn't really communicate with during the songwriting process because he spoke very little english." Sorry, it just rubs me the wrong way.

I agree. Why they are choosing to play the "We didn't want a tribute band singer " card is a bit weird to me as well. Most of us here know that had you and Journey been able to strike a deal that you would have indeed been the new singer. Most here also know the job was clearly offered as well. That's pretty obvious. I think the "We didn't want a tribute band singer" is for the masses of people outside of our little internet world. But I don't see what purpose it serves to discredit tribute band singers and any band that might hire one. What's the difference what your background is as long as you can perform the job? In all honesty, Neal should stop 2 things: the "I didn't want to hire a tribute band singer" rhetoric, and the "You'll have to ask Augeri" rhetoric when asked about his past vocal condition. Management needs to advise and come up with better answers for him to give than that!!!

[Jeremey]

I agree. Why they are choosing to play the "We didn't want a tribute band singer " card is a bit weird to me as well. Most of us here know that had you and Journey been able to strike a deal that you would have indeed been the new singer. Most here also know the job was clearly offered as well. That's pretty obvious. I think the "We didn't want a tribute band singer" is for the masses of people outside of our little internet world. But I don't see what purpose it serves to discredit tribute band singers and any band that might hire one. What's the difference what your background is as long as you can perform the job? In all honesty, Neal should stop 2 things: the "I didn't want to hire a tribute band singer" rhetoric, and the "You'll have to ask Augeri" rhetoric when asked about his past vocal condition. Management needs to advise and come up with better answers for him to give than that!!!

These kinds of decisions about what to say are pretty much made like this - I've witnessed it first hand...

"What do we say when people ask about Jeremey?"

"Fuck it, just tell them we didn't want a tribute band singer!"

Case closed. Not a lot of thought put into it, not these things should be micromanaged, but that is about the size of it.

[Greg]

My computer teacher during my sophomre year of high school said "Welcome to hell" the very first day of class. Didn't mean I was there. If Journey told you that Wolverines make good house pets would you believe them? I love the way Journey's "word" is only good when it's convenient. The way you and the rest of The Heaven's Gate Cult beat them down over their dishonesty and shenanigans you can't possibly come in here and say "I'm right because Journey said so" with a straight face.

What on earth are you talking about Saint John? At no time whatsoever did your post ever make any logical sense at all. Why are you talking about Wolverines? What do Wolverines have to do with Journey? Did you even pass that computer class? All I basically said, which is common knowledge amongst all of us here at MR and elsewhere (whether if you believe it or not) is that Jeremey was basically Journey's first choice to fill the vocalist position and in fact, the band's management was going through the hiring process (ie. discussing the financial apsects) with Jeremey. Deny it all ya want, but if a company is not interested in hiring someone, they surely are not going to send that person to HR to discuss salary options. That wouldn't make sense at all. I just find it interesting how some of you guys seem to have developed amnesia with all of this. Whatever happened between the band and Jeremey after that is between J and the band, but obviously if talks had reached the point of finances then it's a good sign you're hired.

[Greg]

I agree. Why they are choosing to play the "We didn't want a tribute band singer " card is a bit weird to me as well. Most of us here know that had you and Journey been able to strike a deal that you would have indeed been the new singer. Most here also know the job was clearly offered as well. That's pretty obvious. I think the "We didn't want a tribute band singer" is for the masses of people outside of our little internet world. But I don't see what purpose it serves to discredit tribute band singers and any band that might hire one. What's the difference what your background is as long as you can perform the job? In all honesty, Neal should stop 2 things: the "I didn't want to hire a tribute band singer" rhetoric, and the "You'll have to ask Augeri" rhetoric when asked about his past vocal condition. Management needs to advise and come up with better answers for him to give than that!!!

Isn't that what I just got through saying in my first post? Geez..talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth.

[Onestepper]

I agree. Why they are choosing to play the "We didn't want a tribute band singer " card is a bit weird to me as well. Most of us here know that had you and Journey been able to strike a deal that you would have indeed been the new singer. Most here also know the job was clearly offered as well. That's pretty obvious. I think the "We didn't want a tribute band singer" is for the masses of people outside of our little internet world. But I don't see what purpose it serves to discredit tribute band singers and any band that might hire one. What's the difference what your background is as long as you can perform the job? In all honesty, Neal should stop 2 things: the "I didn't want to hire a tribute band singer" rhetoric, and the "You'll have to ask Augeri" rhetoric when asked about his past vocal condition. Management needs to advise and come up with better answers for him to give than that!!!

Isn't that what I just got through saying in my first post? Geez..talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I've completely lost track over what in the world you are arguing about. So, here ya go...

[RobbieG]

I agree. Why they are choosing to play the "We didn't want a tribute band singer " card is a bit weird to me as well. Most of us here know that had you and Journey been able to strike a deal that you would have indeed been the new singer. Most here also know the job was clearly offered as well. That's pretty obvious. I think the "We didn't want a tribute band singer" is for the masses of people outside of our little internet world. But I don't see what purpose it serves to discredit tribute band singers and any band that might hire one. What's the difference what your background is as long as you can perform the job? In all honesty, Neal should stop 2 things: the "I didn't want to hire a tribute band singer" rhetoric, and the "You'll have to ask Augeri" rhetoric when asked about his past vocal condition. Management needs to advise and come up with better answers for him to give than that!!!

Isn't that what I just got through saying in my first post? Geez..talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Per Jeremey "case closed" why bring this up same with Augeri and JSS case closed lets move on.

[Saint John]

I agree. Why they are choosing to play the "We didn't want a tribute band singer " card is a bit weird to me as well. Most of us here know that had you and Journey been able to strike a deal that you would have indeed been the new singer. Most here also know the job was clearly offered as well. That's pretty obvious. I think the "We didn't want a tribute band singer" is for the masses of people outside of our little internet world. But I don't see what purpose it serves to discredit tribute band singers and any band that might hire one. What's the difference what your background is as long as you can perform the job? In all honesty, Neal should stop 2 things: the "I didn't want to hire a tribute band singer" rhetoric, and the "You'll have to ask Augeri" rhetoric when asked about his past vocal condition. Management needs to advise and come up with better answers for him to give than that!!!

Isn't that what I just got through saying in my first post? Geez..talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You said, and I quote "When the band leaves a "Welcome to Journey" message on the answering machine. It's usually a good sign you've been hired." I'm simply arguing that Jeremey was never hired...just offered the job and talks somewhere, somehow fell through. You have said twice that he was "hired." Incorrect, asshole. My story has stayed the same and makes sense, yours doesn't. Didn't you, like many mnay others, quit this place and say you weren't coming back? Honor your word and get the fuck out of here.

[Greg]

You said, and I quote "When the band leaves a "Welcome to Journey" message on the answering machine. It's usually a good sign you've been hired." I'm simply arguing that Jeremey was never hired...just offered the job and talks somewhere, somehow fell through. You have said twice that he was "hired." Incorrect, asshole. My story has stayed the same and makes sense, yours doesn't. Didn't you, like many mnay others, quit this place and say you weren't coming back? Honor your word and get the fuck out of here.

Nice try! But your tough guy talk doesn't work with me. I'll post here whenever I feel like it, and there is not a thing you can do about it.

[whirlwind]

I thought that Jeremey was offered the job, that he turned it down because of family, that he changed his mind but that it was too late and that Journey realized that he couldn't commit. Wasn't it that simple?

[whirlwind]

I remember everyone here patting Jeremey on the back for putting family first.

I don't see Journey as the bad guy here.

[Saint John]

I remember everyone here patting Jeremey on the back for putting family first.

I don't see Journey as the bad guy here.

Honestly, I don't see either party as the "bad guy." What some of us are wondering is why there is the need to belittle the idea of hiring a tribute band singer when that is exactly what they tried to do at one point!!! I don't think it's a big deal, but I do wonder why they feel the need to do that.

[Greg]

I remember everyone here patting Jeremey on the back for putting family first.

I don't see Journey as the bad guy here.

No one has ever argued that Whirlwind. The only reason why I mentioned Jeremey in the first place was because an earlier poster basically stated Journey hired Arnel because they didn't want a Perry clone, and if they did, they would've hired Jeremey Hunsicker. And all I said to that was that Journey basically DID hire Jeremey and was going through with the financial aspects of the hiring. Some were just wanting to argue semantics and make it sound as if Jeremey was never truly in consideration which is not true. Of course, then SJ comes and starts arguing about Wolverines and Heaven's Gate which I'm still wondering what that has to do with anything but so be it.

However, to me, I'm just simply saying it looks like to me Jeremey was the first choice, Journey was interested in hiring someone who sounds just like Steve Perry, and Cain is full of crap.

[whirlwind]

I remember everyone here patting Jeremey on the back for putting family first.

I don't see Journey as the bad guy here.

Honestly, I don't see either party as the "bad guy." What some of us are wondering is why there is the need to belittle the idea of hiring a tribute band singer when that is exactly what they tried to do at one point!!! I don't think it's a big deal, but I do wonder why they feel the need to do that.

It's just that it's just been shoved down Schon's throat about he's always looking for a Perry clone but I think that Journey has always been paying tribute to Perry in wanting someone to carry the tunes as Perry did. Perry is the legacy that Journey keeps talking about and it has to be as much like Perry as possible to fly. It's just what Journey is about to too many people. Forget this new Journey. It's all about Arnel, imo, as far as the new album is concerned and it doesn't hold a candle to their classic sound. I'd like to see Arnel get something good out of this and the pride in him that his country has is part of his dream.
I don't think that Arnel will be the last to keep Journey afloat but he is just another in a line of attempts at trying to keep the Journey/Perry legacy relevant. Just the way I see it.

[Greg]

It's just that it's just been shoved down Schon's throat about he's always looking for a Perry clone but I think that Journey has always been paying tribute to Perry in wanting someone to carry the tunes as Perry did. Perry is the legacy that Journey keeps talking about and it has to be as much like Perry as possible to fly. It's just what Journey is about to too many people. Forget this new Journey. It's all about Arnel, imo, as far as the new album is concerned and it doesn't hold a candle to their classic sound. I'd like to see Arnel get something good out of this and the pride in him that his country has is part of his dream.
I don't think that Arnel will be the last to keep Journey afloat but he is just another in a line of attempts at trying to keep the Journey/Perry legacy relevant. Just the way I see it.

Good luck getting Schon to admit that it's about paying tribute to Perry.
But I do agree with you in that Perry is the legacy that kept Journey going through the years.
The legacy sound Neal and Jon talked about is certainly the sound of Steve Perry's voice.
Or at least something close to it. That's what they had in mind with Augeri, Hunsicker, Soto to a certain extent, and Pineda.
I'm sure if Arnel gets canned tomorrow, the next singer will have that "Legacy" sound as well.

[whirlwind]

It's just that it's just been shoved down Schon's throat about he's always looking for a Perry clone but I think that Journey has always been paying tribute to Perry in wanting someone to carry the tunes as Perry did. Perry is the legacy that Journey keeps talking about and it has to be as much like Perry as possible to fly. It's just what Journey is about to too many people. Forget this new Journey. It's all about Arnel, imo, as far as the new album is concerned and it doesn't hold a candle to their classic sound. I'd like to see Arnel get something good out of this and the pride in him that his country has is part of his dream.
I don't think that Arnel will be the last to keep Journey afloat but he is just another in a line of attempts at trying to keep the Journey/Perry legacy relevant. Just the way I see it.

Good luck getting Schon to admit that it's about paying tribute to Perry.
But I do agree with you in that Perry is the legacy that kept Journey going through the years.
The legacy sound Neal and Jon talked about is certainly the sound of Steve Perry's voice.
Or at least something close to it. That's what they had in mind with Augeri, Hunsicker, Soto to a certain extent, and Pineda.
I'm sure if Arnel gets canned tomorrow, the next singer will have that "Legacy" sound as well.

**************

"Good luck getting Schon to admit that it's about paying tribute to Perry. "



He would never admit it but his every action this past decade reveals it, lol. I think that he was afraid that getting someone like Hugo or Jeremey would put him back in the funk of having the lead singer LEAD his band again. With Arnel, he can say JUMP and Arnel will say , "How far," no pun intended.

[Tito]

[quote="Saint John]"I agree. Why they are choosing to play the "We didn't want a tribute band singer " card is a bit weird to me as well. Most of us here know that had you and Journey been able to strike a deal that you would have indeed been the new singer. Most here also know the job was clearly offered as well. That's pretty obvious. I think the "We didn't want a tribute band singer" is for the masses of people outside of our little internet world. But I don't see what purpose it serves to discredit tribute band singers and any band that might hire one. What's the difference what your background is as long as you can perform the job? In all honesty, Neal should stop 2 things: the "I didn't want to hire a tribute band singer" rhetoric, and the "You'll have to ask Augeri" rhetoric when asked about his past vocal condition. Management needs to advise and come up with better answers for him to give than that!!![/quote]

As a casual fan , I'm not aware of anything you are talking about above.

[Tito]

I remember everyone here patting Jeremey on the back for putting family first.

I don't see Journey as the bad guy here.

Jeremey seems like a real good guy. And I KNOW Journey are good people and this even before Arnel made them better people. So, they have to be outstanding now.