OT: New Movie Concern for Parents - The Golden Compass

[Monker]

In other words: Get over it already. Nobody knows the 'answer'. You were not meant to.

Pretty cruel of God to do that if true.

How unfaithful you are. You shouldn't expect God to give you the 'answer' to 'everything' in order for you to 'believe'. Your faith should be enough. You should not need proof of this and that, and facts of this and that, and 'you are wrong because..,' comebacks.

All truth is God's truth. When you deny the truth of the world, you are really denying God's creation. And, imo, you look pretty foolish.

[Higgy]

Macroevolution, however, does not occur. You don't see one species evolving into another species. It just doesn't happen.

No matter how much you WANT this to be true, it just isn't. Speciation happens all the time - and its proven and undisputed by scientists.

[Greg]

With all this back and forths about evolution, there is one thing I would like for it to answer. This one thing it cannot scientifically answer. That is, why we were created? While it will try to prove the process through the scientific method, it cannot test why we were created.

[conversationpc]

How unfaithful you are. You shouldn't expect God to give you the 'answer' to 'everything' in order for you to 'believe'. Your faith should be enough. You should not need proof of this and that, and facts of this and that, and 'you are wrong because..,' comebacks.

Ummm...When did I say I needed proof of everything or all the facts? I don't. Do I search for them? Yes. That's part of being human, the search for truth, meaning in life, etc.

All truth is God's truth. When you deny the truth of the world, you are really denying God's creation. And, imo, you look pretty foolish.

You're the last one on this forum to be telling someone else they look foolish. Besides that, what is the truth of the world and how have I denied it? Interesting that you indicate I can't be authoritative on it but yet you can. Kinda hypocritical there, don't you think?

[conversationpc]

Macroevolution, however, does not occur. You don't see one species evolving into another species. It just doesn't happen.

No matter how much you WANT this to be true, it just isn't. Speciation happens all the time - and its proven and undisputed by scientists.

If by speciation, you mean changes within a species that may change the size, subtle changes in appearance, behavior, etc., then yes, speciation does occur. If you're talking about one species evolving into another, then no, it doesn't.

[Monker]

Ummm...When did I say I needed proof of everything or all the facts. I don't.

In the first post I replied to in this thread you were asking fundamental questions like, "how does evolution explain the creation of all matter in the universe?" The conversation has turned into a, "prove evolution is fact."

Then you question why God would not give the answer to everything...The combo of the twould shows a lack of faith, imo.

:lol: You're the last one on this forum to be telling someone else they look foolish.

Actually, I am usually the first...and sometimes the only.

Interesting that you indicate I can't be authoritative on it but yet you can. Kinda hypocritical there, don't you think?

Authoritative? The bottom line is you started out arguing that both evolution and creationism are a matter of faith. Now you are arguing 'facts' and asking for 'proof' that one is more true then the other.

Neither can be proved and they should not have to be, for someone who supposedly has faith.us

[Higgy]

Macroevolution, however, does not occur. You don't see one species evolving into another species. It just doesn't happen.

No matter how much you WANT this to be true, it just isn't. Speciation happens all the time - and its proven and undisputed by scientists.

If by speciation, you mean changes within a species that may change the size, subtle changes in appearance, behavior, etc., then yes, speciation does occur. If you're talking about one species evolving into another, then no, it doesn't.

I love how sure you are about this.

The biological species concept - a species is a species when it can interbreed and produce viable offspring.

Adaptations occuring over a long period of time can cause variation which causes differences within a species so vast that they are no longer the same species. This occurs in a number of ways...

Allopatric Speciation: A geographic divide seperates a species. Two different ecosystems are adapted to Eventually, two different species live in the two different ecosystems and diverge into two seperate species (i.e. an island becomes 2 islands due to higher water levels. The two new islands have different resources and different adaptations occur).

Parapatric speciation: One group of a species travels to a new ecosystem and interbreeds primarily with each other. This group adapts to a new ecosystem. (i.e. Lowland Gorillas move to the top of the Virunga mountains where it is much colder and contains different food sources. These Gorillas adapt to their new surroundings and become Mountain Gorillas).

[conversationpc]

In the first post I replied to in this thread you were asking fundamental questions like, "how does evolution explain the creation of all matter in the universe?" The conversation has turned into a, "prove evolution is fact."

Then you question why God would not give the answer to everything...The combo of the twould shows a lack of faith, imo.

There's a big difference between honest questioning and an overreaching need to have everything proved. I don't NEED to have everything proven to have faith but, on the other side, there is nothing wrong with seeking more knowledge. Besides that, you know nothing of my faith.

Authoritative? The bottom line is you started out arguing that both evolution and creationism are a matter of faith. Now you are arguing 'facts' and asking for 'proof' that one is more true then the other.

Neither can be proved and they should not have to be, for someone who supposedly has faith.us

One can have faith in God but still want to know facts about Him. The two are not mutually exclusive. God gave us a mind and curiosity not to torture us but to be interested in seeking additional knowledge about him and all things in the universe, for that matter. You want to make them mutually exclusive but they just aren't.

[conversationpc]

The biological species concept - a species is a species when it can interbreed and produce viable offspring.

Adaptations occuring over a long period of time can cause variation which causes differences within a species so vast that they are no longer the same species. This occurs in a number of ways...

Allopatric Speciation: A geographic divide seperates a species. Two different ecosystems are adapted to Eventually, two different species live in the two different ecosystems and diverge into two seperate species (i.e. an island becomes 2 islands due to higher water levels. The two new islands have different resources and different adaptations occur).

Parapatric speciation: One group of a species travels to a new ecosystem and interbreeds primarily with each other. This group adapts to a new ecosystem. (i.e. Lowland Gorillas move to the top of the Virunga mountains where it is much colder and contains different food sources. These Gorillas adapt to their new surroundings and become Mountain Gorillas).

Spare me the lecture. I've read all this stuff before. Besides that, a Gorilla becoming a Mountain Gorilla is still a gorilla. Let me know when that Gorilla turns into a dog, horse, cow, or lizard.

[Greg]

Macroevolution, however, does not occur. You don't see one species evolving into another species. It just doesn't happen.

No matter how much you WANT this to be true, it just isn't. Speciation happens all the time - and its proven and undisputed by scientists.

If by speciation, you mean changes within a species that may change the size, subtle changes in appearance, behavior, etc., then yes, speciation does occur. If you're talking about one species evolving into another, then no, it doesn't.

I love how sure you are about this.

The biological species concept - a species is a species when it can interbreed and produce viable offspring.

Adaptations occuring over a long period of time can cause variation which causes differences within a species so vast that they are no longer the same species. This occurs in a number of ways...

Allopatric Speciation: A geographic divide seperates a species. Two different ecosystems are adapted to Eventually, two different species live in the two different ecosystems and diverge into two seperate species (i.e. an island becomes 2 islands due to higher water levels. The two new islands have different resources and different adaptations occur).

Parapatric speciation: One group of a species travels to a new ecosystem and interbreeds primarily with each other. This group adapts to a new ecosystem. (i.e. Lowland Gorillas move to the top of the Virunga mountains where it is much colder and contains different food sources. These Gorillas adapt to their new surroundings and become Mountain Gorillas).

You'r talking about subspecies, hence, microevolution. However, those Gorillas are not forming a new taxnomy of species. Therefore, it cannot be in any way, shape, or form, macroevolution.

[Higgy]

The biological species concept - a species is a species when it can interbreed and produce viable offspring.

Adaptations occuring over a long period of time can cause variation which causes differences within a species so vast that they are no longer the same species. This occurs in a number of ways...

Allopatric Speciation: A geographic divide seperates a species. Two different ecosystems are adapted to Eventually, two different species live in the two different ecosystems and diverge into two seperate species (i.e. an island becomes 2 islands due to higher water levels. The two new islands have different resources and different adaptations occur).

Parapatric speciation: One group of a species travels to a new ecosystem and interbreeds primarily with each other. This group adapts to a new ecosystem. (i.e. Lowland Gorillas move to the top of the Virunga mountains where it is much colder and contains different food sources. These Gorillas adapt to their new surroundings and become Mountain Gorillas).

Spare me the lecture. I've read all this stuff before. Besides that, a Gorilla becoming a Mountain Gorilla is still a gorilla. Let me know when that Gorilla turns into a dog, horse, cow, or lizard.

If I spared you the lecture you'd stay just as ignorant about a subject you are so vehemently against-

A Mountian Gorilla is a different species in the Gorilla genus. This happened in a matter of 100,000 years. In 10 times that amount of time the speciation will be more severe (of course Mountain gorillas will be extinct by then because of the good old Adam and Eve humans).

A Gorilla will never turn into a dog, horse, cow, or lizard. No one would ever even suggest that.

Do you know why Christianity turns so many people off? Because so many Christians go about this - if you are a real christian than you can't accept science, or you can't enjoy a certain movie, or you can't enjoy your Dio album, etc.
How about, if you're a christian you accept Jesus and thats that? Science is cool, Jesus is cool, and the two are cool together.

[ohsherrie]

God gave us a mind and curiosity not to torture us but to be interested in seeking additional knowledge about him and all things in the universe, for that matter. You want to make them mutually exclusive but they just aren't.

No Dave, you make them mutually exclusive when you deny that the evidence disputes your belief.

If I'm wrong I know Monker will tell me so, but I think what he's been saying is that your belief adapts itself to encompass the scientific evidence of evolution in such a way as to try to incorporate it and yet refute it at the same time. You try to deny evolution, but at the same you're trying to fit it into your belief so that your belief won't become archaic.

I think what he's saying is embrace your religion for what it is to you but don't try to force it on everyone else. We all have a right to believe what we do without explaining it or apologizing for it.

[conversationpc]

Do you know why Christianity turns so many people off? Because so many Christians go about this - if you are a real christian than you can't accept science, or you can't enjoy a certain movie, or you can't enjoy your Dio album, etc. How about, if you're a christian you accept Jesus and thats that? Science is cool, Jesus is cool, and the two are cool together.

I love Dio. Great singer. Great music.

I don't love evolution. Can I outright dismiss it? No, but I have lots of questions and doubts.

BTW, the same argument can be turned around. "If you don't accept evolution, you must be an uneducated, knuckle-dragging, drooling neanderthal.", etc, etc.

[conversationpc]

No Dave, you make them mutually exclusive when you deny that the evidence disputes your belief.

What is the evidence that disputes my belief? If evolution is true, it doesn't destroy my faith at all. If I'm wrong on this or that, so be it. My faith is not that brittle.

You try to deny evolution, but at the same you're trying to fit it into your belief so that your belief won't become archaic.

Ummm...No. Where am I trying to fit it into my belief? My belief isn't archaic.

I think what he's saying is embrace your religion for what it is to you but don't try to force it on everyone else. We all have a right to believe what we do without explaining it or apologizing for it.

Arrgggh!!! HOW THE HELL AM I TRYING TO FORCE IT ON ANYONE BY SIMPLY DISCUSSING IT, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD?! It really gets maddening that simply having a strong opinion and not being afraid to discuss it, debate it, question it, etc., is equated with "forcing" it on everyone else.

[Andrew]

With all this back and forths about evolution, there is one thing I would like for it to answer. This one thing it cannot scientifically answer. That is, why we were created? While it will try to prove the process through the scientific method, it cannot test why we were created.

In order to evolve to an intelligence level high enough to design power, computers and then the internet, to all get assigned usernames only to debate the true meaning of life on message boards around the globe.
Then we get hit by an asteroid and annihilated. The end.

[conversationpc]

With all this back and forths about evolution, there is one thing I would like for it to answer. This one thing it cannot scientifically answer. That is, why we were created? While it will try to prove the process through the scientific method, it cannot test why we were created.

In order to evolve to an intelligence level high enough to design power, computers and then the internet, to all get assigned usernames only to debate the true meaning of life on message boards around the globe.
Then we get hit by an asteroid and annihilated. The end.

[RedWingFan]

Arrgggh!!! HOW THE HELL AM I TRYING TO FORCE IT ON ANYONE BY SIMPLY DISCUSSING IT, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD?! It really gets maddening that simply having a strong opinion and not being afraid to discuss it, debate it, question it, etc., is equated with "forcing" it on everyone else.

Hilarious!!!!! Laying breadcrumbs to your church door again, luring the pigeons Dave? As Al Gore said on tv the other day regarding global warming, that the other side (skeptics) shouldn't get air time. Funny!

[Higgy]

Do you know why Christianity turns so many people off? Because so many Christians go about this - if you are a real christian than you can't accept science, or you can't enjoy a certain movie, or you can't enjoy your Dio album, etc. How about, if you're a christian you accept Jesus and thats that? Science is cool, Jesus is cool, and the two are cool together.

I love Dio. Great singer. Great music.

I don't love evolution. Can I outright dismiss it? No, but I have lots of questions and doubts.

BTW, the same argument can be turned around. "If you don't accept evolution, you must be an uneducated, knuckle-dragging, drooling neanderthal.", etc, etc.

Neanderthals were actually very intelligent - they would have understood evolution

[RedWingFan]

With all this back and forths about evolution, there is one thing I would like for it to answer. This one thing it cannot scientifically answer. That is, why we were created? While it will try to prove the process through the scientific method, it cannot test why we were created.

In order to evolve to an intelligence level high enough to design power, computers and then the internet, to all get assigned usernames only to debate the true meaning of life on message boards around the globe.
Then we get hit by an asteroid and annihilated. The end.

Classic!!!

[Greg]

With all this back and forths about evolution, there is one thing I would like for it to answer. This one thing it cannot scientifically answer. That is, why we were created? While it will try to prove the process through the scientific method, it cannot test why we were created.

In order to evolve to an intelligence level high enough to design power, computers and then the internet, to all get assigned usernames only to debate the true meaning of life on message boards around the globe.
Then we get hit by an asteroid and annihilated. The end.

Daggonit Andrew! Way to be a Debbie Downer...j/k LOL!

[conversationpc]

Arrgggh!!! HOW THE HELL AM I TRYING TO FORCE IT ON ANYONE BY SIMPLY DISCUSSING IT, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD?! It really gets maddening that simply having a strong opinion and not being afraid to discuss it, debate it, question it, etc., is equated with "forcing" it on everyone else.

Hilarious!!!!! Laying breadcrumbs to your church door again, luring the pigeons Dave? As Al Gore said on tv the other day regarding global warming, that the other side (skeptics) shouldn't get air time. Funny!

I'm not sure I get your whole statement but I'm just trying to keep it real. I'm not a holier-than-thou and I have real emotions. What you see is what you get. I'm not a bad person, but I've got thorns just like everyone else.

[ohsherrie]

With all this back and forths about evolution, there is one thing I would like for it to answer. This one thing it cannot scientifically answer. That is, why we were created? While it will try to prove the process through the scientific method, it cannot test why we were created.

In order to evolve to an intelligence level high enough to design power, computers and then the internet, to all get assigned usernames only to debate the true meaning of life on message boards around the globe.
Then we get hit by an asteroid and annihilated. The end.

That's the boss.

[conversationpc]

Neanderthals were actually very intelligent - they would have understood evolution

Me no think so.

[ohsherrie]

Arrgggh!!! HOW THE HELL AM I TRYING TO FORCE IT ON ANYONE BY SIMPLY DISCUSSING IT, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD?! It really gets maddening that simply having a strong opinion and not being afraid to discuss it, debate it, question it, etc., is equated with "forcing" it on everyone else.

You're not, by discussing it or arguing it with other adults. If you force it into the public schools though, then you are.

[conversationpc]

Arrgggh!!! HOW THE HELL AM I TRYING TO FORCE IT ON ANYONE BY SIMPLY DISCUSSING IT, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD?! It really gets maddening that simply having a strong opinion and not being afraid to discuss it, debate it, question it, etc., is equated with "forcing" it on everyone else.

You're not, by discussing it or arguing it with other adults. If you force it into the public schools though, then you are.

I can't imagine that the writers of the constitution would have ANY problem with creation OR evolution being discussed in public schools.

Using your logic then, is the discussion of evolution for students who don't agree with it also "forcing" it on them? Shouldn't they be allowed to bring up what they believe and what problems they have with evolution?

[ohsherrie]

Neanderthals were actually very intelligent - they would have understood evolution

Me no think so.

Ugh, Oomph, Gurrrum

[conversationpc]

Neanderthals were actually very intelligent - they would have understood evolution

Me no think so.

Ugh, Oomph, Gurrrum

You might want to sit on the toilet if you're going to do that.

[ohsherrie]

Arrgggh!!! HOW THE HELL AM I TRYING TO FORCE IT ON ANYONE BY SIMPLY DISCUSSING IT, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD?! It really gets maddening that simply having a strong opinion and not being afraid to discuss it, debate it, question it, etc., is equated with "forcing" it on everyone else.

You're not, by discussing it or arguing it with other adults. If you force it into the public schools though, then you are.

I can't imagine that the writers of the constitution would have ANY problem with creation OR evolution being discussed in public schools.

Using your logic then, is the discussion of evolution for students who don't agree with it also "forcing" it on them? Shouldn't they be allowed to bring up what they believe and what problems they have with evolution?

Evolution should be taught exactly for the same reason that the round earth and the sun being the center of our solar system are taught. I'm sure that students in Galileo's time were being taught that the sun revolved around the earth and the parents that believed the truth then were faced with the same dilemma.

Of course the students should be allowed to ask questions, but the teachers should explain that creationist ideas are religious rather than scientific viewpoints and should be answered by their parents.

[ohsherrie]

Neanderthals were actually very intelligent - they would have understood evolution

Me no think so.

Ugh, Oomph, Gurrrum

You might want to sit on the toilet if you're going to do that.

No problem, it's passed.

[conversationpc]

Evolution should be taught exactly for the same reason that the round earth and the sun being the center of our solar system are taught. I'm sure that students in Galileo's time were being taught that the sun revolved around the earth and the parents that believed the truth then were faced with the same dilemma.

I never said evolution shouldn't be taught. All I'm asking for is a fair playing field.

You try to deny evolution, but at the same you're trying to fit it into your belief so that your belief won't become archaic.

I'm still trying to figure out what the heck you were talking about here.